What are your thoughts on full day virtual kindergarten?

[Lawyer&Mom]

I had a Kindergartener last spring in distance learning, and I have another Kindergartener starting distance learning next week.  We homeschooled Kindergarten over the summer.  My observations:  it was 100% easier to homeschool Kindergarten than to help with online learning.  However, we are going back to distance learning for a few reasons.  We have been extremely cautious about COVID, and the girls have almost no social opportunities.  I’m really looking forward to them interacting with their teachers and peers, even if it is all on the screen.  Also our parochial school limits instructional screen time to an hour a day for Kindergarden.  It will be two twenty minute Zooms and twenty minutes of prerecorded material a day.  It will be more work for me, but I think it will be worth it for the kids to feel like they are a part of something bigger than our household.

Six hours of Zoom isn’t going to work.  At all.  Hopefully the schools will be flexible enough to adjust as the school year unfolds.

[Matryoshka]

47 minutes ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

I had a Kindergartener last spring in distance learning, and I have another Kindergartener starting distance learning next week.  We homeschooled Kindergarten over the summer.  My observations:  it was 100% easier to homeschool Kindergarten than to help with online learning.  However, we are going back to distance learning for a few reasons.  We have been extremely cautious about COVID, and the girls have almost no social opportunities.  I’m really looking forward to them interacting with their teachers and peers, even if it is all on the screen.  Also our parochial school limits instructional screen time to an hour a day for Kindergarten.  It will be two twenty minute Zooms and twenty minutes of prerecorded material a day.  It will be more work for me, but I think it will be worth it for the kids to feel like they are a part of something bigger than our household.

Six hours of Zoom isn’t going to work.  At all.  Hopefully the schools will be flexible enough to adjust as the school year unfolds.

Twenty minute sessions spread out over the day is about what's appropriate and helpful for a Ker.  Six hours of Zoom, as you say, is bananapants.  Heck, it's crazy even for older kids.  Even my college kid with a full load is only in Zoom sessions at most a few hours a day, and not even every day!

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly, what is even the point of preschool/kindergarten if there is no play kitchen? That was the best part! They had the best play house area with the stuff our parents couldn't afford for any one single family. 

Oh, and the really big blocks. 

 

Well, nowadays kids are older going into KG.  I was young in KG and I hated the "play times" as I found them babyish.  KG kids are big enough to use the actual kitchen at home.

Social times and age-appropriate play activities are needed in KG, yes.  The opportunity to interact in person with peers is the most important thing about KG IMO.  Of course that isn't gonna happen with "shelter in place," regardless of what virtual KG looks like.

[SKL]

Yeah, I don't see them enforcing truancy laws on virtual KG kids, but over-zealous teachers / admins might try to harass them.

My school district did something that certain parents didn't like.  A few days later, the superintendent sent out an email saying he heard the parents, agreed with them, and here's the new plan.  I think if multiple parents have the guts to push back, changes will be made on the side of reason.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Wait, do most states have compulsory schooling for 5yos? Here, I didn't even need to submit homeschooling paperwork till the year my kids turned 6 by Sept - that's when it starts here.  99% of kids attend kindy these days, but legally, it's not compulsory unless you redshirt and your kid is 6 before September of that year.

Here K is not required...BUT....the schools can refuse to place a kid in first grade without proof of "passing" kindergarten first. So in reality, it is required. It's bizzare. 

So if you are homeschooling for K, and not sure if you will continue homeschooling, you are encouraged by us veterans to go ahead and formally submit your letter of intent for Kindergarten, and keep records like normal, etc. That way, if you do send them to public school for first grade they have a record of the kid being "enrolled" in kindergartn, albeit homeschooled (which is fine). If you are going to continue homeschooling for sure, then it doesn't matter if you formally register as a homeschooler for kindergarten, or just start with first grade, when it is compulsory. 

1 hour ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

I had a Kindergartener last spring in distance learning, and I have another Kindergartener starting distance learning next week.  We homeschooled Kindergarten over the summer.  My observations:  it was 100% easier to homeschool Kindergarten than to help with online learning.  However, we are going back to distance learning for a few reasons.  We have been extremely cautious about COVID, and the girls have almost no social opportunities.  I’m really looking forward to them interacting with their teachers and peers, even if it is all on the screen.  Also our parochial school limits instructional screen time to an hour a day for Kindergarden.  It will be two twenty minute Zooms and twenty minutes of prerecorded material a day.  It will be more work for me, but I think it will be worth it for the kids to feel like they are a part of something bigger than our household.

Six hours of Zoom isn’t going to work.  At all.  Hopefully the schools will be flexible enough to adjust as the school year unfolds.

The private schools seem to be handling it better. A friend has kids in private elementary and they do have a full day, but with two recesses, a lunch break, and two "green space" breaks where they are told to sign off and get outside. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Well, nowadays kids are older going into KG.  I was young in KG and I hated the "play times" as I found them babyish.  KG kids are big enough to use the actual kitchen at home.

 

The youngest kids entering kindergarten in NYC are 4 years, 9 months on the first day of school. Most kids that age are not using the actual kitchen at home.

And while you might have found playtime babyish, I have to say that the fact that I was cooking at 7 didn't diminish my joy in playing pretend at 10.

[Bootsie]

23 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I'm of a mind that it is borderline child abuse. 

People in many parts of the world would say it isn't even borderline.  What we have for kindergarten in most parts of the US even when it is in person is not developmentally appropriate, IMO, and is not supported by much of the early childhood development literature I have seen.  Being virtual simply adds another layer, making it even more inappropriate.  

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Here K is not required...BUT....the schools can refuse to place a kid in first grade without proof of "passing" kindergarten first. So in reality, it is required. It's bizzare. 

So if you are homeschooling for K, and not sure if you will continue homeschooling, you are encouraged by us veterans to go ahead and formally submit your letter of intent for Kindergarten, and keep records like normal, etc. That way, if you do send them to public school for first grade they have a record of the kid being "enrolled" in kindergartn, albeit homeschooled (which is fine). If you are going to continue homeschooling for sure, then it doesn't matter if you formally register as a homeschooler for kindergarten, or just start with first grade, when it is compulsory. 

Well, that's just... wacky.  Could this be solved by just keeping them home for 1st, too?  Do you have to show 'proof' of passing 1st to get into 2nd?  Or anywhere else up the line?

Here, most districts laugh or ignore it if you send paperwork for K.  Like, leave us alone and don't make us do any work we don't have to.  Get back to us in a year.  Homeschooling organizations also actively discourage it in case some district decides it's something they are now going to 'require', even though there's no legal basis for it.  Don't set a bad precedent.

[vonfirmath]

2 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, that's just... wacky.  Could this be solved by just keeping them home for 1st, too?  Do you have to show 'proof' of passing 1st to get into 2nd?  Or anywhere else up the line?

Here, most districts laugh or ignore it if you send paperwork for K.  Like, leave us alone and don't make us do any work we don't have to.  Get back to us in a year.  Homeschooling organizations also actively discourage it in case some district decides it's something they are now going to 'require', even though there's no legal basis for it.  Don't set a bad precedent.

I know locally, if you want to hold back a kid for K, you pretty much need to do something different for 1st as well and  then at 2nd they will place the kid in class based on their previous schooling.  Otherwise they'll place the kid in 1st by age and you'll have effectively "skipped K"

[mommyoffive]

And now I just read someone having 3 year olds on for 1 hour a day.   Crazy.

[mom2scouts]

5 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

No.

But once you sign up for school you have to actually attend. (And formally withdraw if you decide to)

 

Not true in my state. Compulsory age starts at 6 by first day of school. If you've signed up a 5 year old and school hasn't started yet, you can just call and tell them you've changed your mind. No formal withdrawal is necessary with a child who isn't compulsory.

As for K on line all day, UGH! It's wrong. My older kids went to half day K. When younger DS was about to start K, the public schools were talking about going to all day K. Parents love it because it's less day care expense, not because it's good for kids (and most admitted it). I would've refused to send DS all day, but they ended up waiting a few years for all day. I pulled him out to homeschool a year after that anyway and my youngest didn't go to PS for K, which was full day by then.

ETA: The more I think about this the angrier it makes me. Not even a global pandemic excuses requiring this of five year olds!

Edited August 28, 2020 by mom2scouts

[vonfirmath]

7 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

Not true in my state. Compulsory age starts at 6 by first day of school. If you've signed up a 5 year old and school hasn't started yet, you can just call and tell them you've changed your mind. No formal withdrawal is necessary with a child who isn't compulsory.

As for K on line all day, UGH! It's wrong. My older kids went to half day K. When younger DS was about to start K, the public schools were talking about going to all day K. Parents love it because it's less day care expense, not because it's good for kids (and most admitted it). I would've refused to send DS all day, but they ended up waiting a few years for all day. I pulled him out to homeschool a year after that anyway and my youngest didn't go to PS for K, which was full day by then.

mom2scouts -- if your kid is going to be out of the house all day anyway (at daycare) and they are getting BORED at "preschool" daycare. Then yes as a parent I'd rather them be in all day K and engaging their mind in learning than acting out because they are bored.

 

[SKL]

Yeah I am not at all opposed to all-day in-person KG - I think it can be done well for most kids of KG age.  My kids had all-day KG (and pre-K and preschool), and it was great for them.  Of course it can be done poorly, but one hopes that over the years, schools have figured out how to do it reasonably well.  Yes, it is a huge help to parents to be able to go to work, but that doesn't automatically mean it's bad for kids.

All-day virtual KG is a whole other thing.  KG is not supposed to be sitting and screens all day, regardless of where it's held.

We'll see how this evolves over time.  I know some mom friends of mine had issues with virtual KG last spring.  They talked to the teachers, who were understanding and helpful.  I think that would be the norm.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, that's just... wacky.  Could this be solved by just keeping them home for 1st, too?  Do you have to show 'proof' of passing 1st to get into 2nd?  Or anywhere else up the line?

 

Well, as long as when you keep them home for first you file your notice of intent to homeschool, yes. 

Basically, kindergarten is seen as a prerequisite...you can homeschool it (by filing a notice of intent) or do private or public, but to move on, you need it. Even though you are not truant if you don't. 

[LMD]

You know, people here get upset with me when I say that we're all institutionalized by the school system. How did anyone, ever, become convinced that a 4/5/6/7 year old needs 6 hours of school work? How did we get to the place of 'multiple hours daily in front of a screen for little kids is just how it is'? *shrug*

We had a chance here to change things, to reset the stupid, developmentally inappropriate pressure cooker. We made it worse. We found a way to make it worse. Slow. Clap. Tell me again how society isn't institutionalized.

[Frances]

13 minutes ago, LMD said:

You know, people here get upset with me when I say that we're all institutionalized by the school system. How did anyone, ever, become convinced that a 4/5/6/7 year old needs 6 hours of school work? How did we get to the place of 'multiple hours daily in front of a screen for little kids is just how it is'? *shrug*

We had a chance here to change things, to reset the stupid, developmentally inappropriate pressure cooker. We made it worse. We found a way to make it worse. Slow. Clap. Tell me again how society isn't institutionalized.

It never ceases to amaze me how much of our education system is designed exactly the opposite of research proven best practices. 

[Tanaqui]

32 minutes ago, LMD said:

You know, people here get upset with me when I say that we're all institutionalized by the school system. How did anyone, ever, become convinced that a 4/5/6/7 year old needs 6 hours of school work? How did we get to the place of 'multiple hours daily in front of a screen for little kids is just how it is'? *shrug*

We had a chance here to change things, to reset the stupid, developmentally inappropriate pressure cooker. We made it worse. We found a way to make it worse. Slow. Clap. Tell me again how society isn't institutionalized.

 

And people get the weirdest blind spots.

Multiple times I've told people that children (typically) learn to read faster if you start at the age of 7 rather than at the age of 5 - doing in one year what it takes their earlier-starting peers three to do, and if they spent the first two years engaged in play and experiential learning, they end up stronger readers by 9 than they would have if they'd spent that time on inappropriate reading instruction and seatwork.

And every time, somebody pipes up that they learned to read before entering school, and they remember that it took forever for their classmates to catch up, and they were SO BORED and they would've been even MORE BORED if they'd started at 7 and had to spend that same amount of time learning to read.

And so I rephrase, and emphasize that if they'd entered school at 5 and spent ages 5 and 6 doing art, and dramatic play, and recess, and storytime, and simple science experiments, and other age appropriate activities and then only started reading instruction at 7, they would've been less bored for a shorter amount of time because their peers would've caught up faster and ended up in the same place - or even more advanced! - at 8 as they did in reality land where that didn't happen.

And they say "Oh, but it took forever and I would've been so bored, and anyway, it takes years to learn to read and when you're 8 you should be reading to learn and not learning to read!"

And I say it in a different way, and stress that whether you start at 5 or start at 7 you definitely will be reading at the same level by the age of 8 years old...

And then they get really mad and say that they were already SO BORED and blah blah blah and no matter how I chunk up this information, no matter how carefully I phrase it, it's like they just can't understand that I'm saying they didn't need to spend three years being bored, they could've spent only one year being bored and their classmates would've done better in the long run.

And these are smart people! Good reading comprehension, quick on the uptake - but they just can't see that the way it was was wrong and it didn't have to be that way.

[frogger]

Am I living in some kind of dystopian novel?

 

That is all I can add.

[frogger]

Perhaps I should direct my children to become optricians or opticians. Demand will be high. 😣

[hippiemamato3]

52 minutes ago, frogger said:

Perhaps I should direct my children to become optricians or opticians. Demand will be high. 😣

Why?

[frogger]

7 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Why?

 

A generation of children who just stare at screens all day will probably have more eye issues.

 

It was said tongue in cheek, not seriously. 

[hippiemamato3]

1 minute ago, frogger said:

 

A generation of children who just stare at screens all day will probably have more eye issues.

 

It was said tongue in cheek, not seriously. 

Ah ok - because no studies show any long term vision issues with looking at computer screens.  

[Shoeless]

16 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

No, K classrooms do not have a play kitchen! They have a few tubs of manipulatives for rainy day inside recess.

Prek (4 year olds) seems about split 50/50 on if they have a house area with kitchen and a block area. Lots of our local district run prek rooms are academic only. Some are play based with academics. 
“preschool” (3 year olds) still has toys, blocks, house/ kitchen  area.

And yes, it’s rough on the good primary teachers too- we know kids learn through play & also need breaks. 

 

My son's K classroom had a play kitchen, but they didn't get much time to use it. 😕  The kids were busy rotating through various "centers". 

[kiwik]

On 8/28/2020 at 5:57 AM, Katy said:

If this was my friend I'd introduce them to Daniel Tiger, Sesame Street, and Leapfrog Letter Factory, and even then you know little ones aren't going to be sitting still staring at the screen.  90% of the time they'll be up, moving around and playing with toys instead of watching.

Aside from this pandemic, I wish that we would call kindergrten what it is - daycare that teaches kids to follow directions, keeps them safe, and beyond that, have some fun.  Some countries in Europe have free public preschool starting at age 3.  It isn't academic, it's socialization.  The French teach kids to eat exotic foods and stinky cheeses.  There is a rule that you don't have to eat it, but you do have to taste it. In I can't remember which Scandinavian country (maybe Sweden?) a friend whose family is from there told me that preschool means spending a lot of time playing outside, making friends, singing songs, and maybe by the end you learn to write your own name.

Unless a kid is so interested they are begging you to teach them I think it's totally appropriate to wait until 7 to require any formal academics.  And totally NOT appropriate to expect them to sit still all day.  A friend of mine who used to be a daycare director (now she's a pastor) likes to say, "Little kids need to jump off big rocks, learn their parents love them, and learn to be kind.  That is all."

In NZ preschool/Kindy is mostly self directed indoor/outdoor play.  In the 6 months before school they may encourage them to attempt to write their name or do some tracing or counting games but otherwise they have sandpits, bikes, blocks, painting, dress ups, playdough, books and toys.  They can stay at preschool until 6 in theory but most go to school at 5.

There are a bunch of things you do way better but I think this is not one of them.

Edited August 30, 2020 by kiwik

[kiwik]

17 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Dear School Official: I am withdrawing my child from school.  Yours truly, X

There, I fixed it.  Really, how should it come to truancy?  If school that age isn't compulsory, there's nothing more to it.  Heck, there wasn't any more to it when my kids were compulsory age, except that I also had to file an ed plan (and I'm in 'strict' state). But at kindy age, there's no reason even to have to say 'I plan to homeschool' or 'these are my plans'.  What's above is enough.  Done.

Is it really that simple where you are?

[Frances]

50 minutes ago, kiwik said:

Is it really that simple where you are?

It is here. We withdrew with a phone call after one semester at public middle school. Then we re-registered online for homeschooling.

[kiwik]

22 hours ago, Frances said:

It is here. We withdrew with a phone call after one semester at public middle school. Then we re-registered online for homeschooling.

Ok.  New Zealand is pretty relaxed but you have to complete an exemption application and have it approved before you withdraw your child from the school system (changing schools is simple though).  The process is difficult enough that you have to think about it seriously but not so difficult it puts you off if you really want to do it.

[Shoeless]

On 8/29/2020 at 1:58 AM, kiwik said:

Is it really that simple where you are?

 

In Texas, you simply write a letter to the school once to withdraw the student.  You don't ask permission; it is for notification purposes. If your child has never attended school, then you don't even have to notify the district. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, kiwik said:

Ok.  New Zealand is pretty relaxed but you have to complete an exemption application and have it approved before you withdraw your child from the school system (changing schools is simple though).  The process is difficult enough that you have to think about it seriously but not so difficult it puts you off if you really want to do it.

There might be states like that in the US, I don’t really know. Every state has its own homeschooling laws. And although I’ve lived in other states, I’ve only homeschooled here.

[kiwik]

31 minutes ago, Frances said:

There might be states like that in the US, I don’t really know. Every state has its own homeschooling laws. And although I’ve lived in other states, I’ve only homeschooled here.

Yes.  I think we tend to forget how much more complex things are in a huge counry.

 

MissLemon I do find the concept that you can just not enroll a kid in school without notification.  Does anyone keep track of them?  I suppose that could happen here but smaller tends to mean less privacy so someone would probably report you.  There are kids who are unenrolled a lot though because the family has unstable housing.

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, kiwik said:

Yes.  I think we tend to forget how much more complex things are in a huge counry.

 

MissLemon I do find the concept that you can just not enroll a kid in school without notification.  Does anyone keep track of them?  I suppose that could happen here but smaller tends to mean less privacy so someone would probably report you.  There are kids who are unenrolled a lot though because the family has unstable housing.

 

Not officially.  It's why some people want more regulation of homeschoolers. People are concerned this type of setup leads to abusive and neglectful situations for the kids.  I don't know if that is true or not.     

Like you said, this is a huge country and Texas is a huge state.  There are 29 million people residing in Texas.  There is no cohesive system that keeps track of K-12 education or students and I don't know if it would be possible to build one that did anything meaningful without intruding upon people's privacy in a significant way.  

I imagine it is much easier for a country with a smaller population to put together a system that keeps track of the welfare of children.  As you said, smaller means less privacy.  People will tend to know what you are up to and remember your name.  

Edited August 30, 2020 by MissLemon

[kiwik]

4 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

Not officially.  It's why some people want more regulation of homeschoolers. People are concerned this type of setup leads to abusive and neglectful situations for the kids.  I don't know if that is true or not.     

Like you said, this is a huge country and Texas is a huge state.  There are 29 million people residing in Texas.  There is no cohesive system that keeps track of K-12 education or students and I don't know if it would be possible to build one that did anything meaningful without intruding upon people's privacy in a significant way.  

I imagine it is much easier for a country with a smaller population to put together a system that keeps track of the welfare of children.  As you said, smaller means less privacy.  People will tend to know what you are up to and remember your name.  

Yup.  It also means not enough numbers to do some of the stuff the US does in education.  Most places have pluses and minuses.