Disturbing behavior for a young child...

[Liberty]

I've been volunteering in a local Christian preschool. All the kids are great and I've really enjoyed them until the new kid showed up. This boy has tremendous separation anxiety issues when his mother leaves, so his mother started hanging around while he's there (she feels as an only child the boy needs to start socializing). Anyway, everytime the boy's mother leaves the room, he turns into something else entirely--the vision that comes to mind is the child from that old, old movie "The Bad Seed." I hate to put it that way, but the facts are that he will reach over and hurt others, like pull hair or hit them on the head. Or he will take away whatever's in their hand or deliberately destroy their property (ie. tower of blocks, art project, etc...). He is maliscious and destructive and out-right defiant when the lead teacher tells him what to do.

 

It is so disturbing to me. I want to cry when I see him turn into this other person. When we tell his mother, she tells him to stop but doesn't really do any other discipline (may be a clue there). Also, the mother has mentioned that the boy can't be trusted with small animals and has been caught hurting them despite everything they've tried to do to get him to stop (!!!).

 

What would cause a small 4yo boy to act like this? Being undiscriplined is one thing, but this is something I've never encountered and it really horrifies me for some reason. Has anyone ever had experience with something like this?

[Tree House Academy]

The hurting animals thing is very scary. I have read, on more than one occasion, that many serial killers first murdered or tortured small animals. :( I think he needs some counseling...starting NOW. That mother needs to get a clue - this is NOT normal.

[jojomojo]

Up until the hurting small animals thing, it sounded like its a parental issue. But animal cruelty is a huge red flag. I think the boy might need the help of a professional. But how can you tell a mom that?

 

I think that would be hard to witness too :(

Edited December 2, 2008 by jojomojo

[PiCO]

I've been volunteering in a local Christian preschool. All the kids are great and I've really enjoyed them until the new kid showed up. This boy has tremendous separation anxiety issues when his mother leaves, so his mother started hanging around while he's there (she feels as an only child the boy needs to start socializing). Anyway, everytime the boy's mother leaves the room, he turns into something else entirely--the vision that comes to mind is the child from that old, old movie "The Bad Seed." I hate to put it that way, but the facts are that he will reach over and hurt others, like pull hair or hit them on the head. Or he will take away whatever's in their hand or deliberately destroy their property (ie. tower of blocks, art project, etc...). He is maliscious and destructive and out-right defiant when the lead teacher tells him what to do.

 

It is so disturbing to me. I want to cry when I see him turn into this other person. When we tell his mother, she tells him to stop but doesn't really do any other discipline (may be a clue there). Also, the mother has mentioned that the boy can't be trusted with small animals and has been caught hurting them despite everything they've tried to do to get him to stop (!!!).

 

What would cause a small 4yo boy to act like this? Being undiscriplined is one thing, but this is something I've never encountered and it really horrifies me for some reason. Has anyone ever had experience with something like this?

 

I think this boy and his family need to be in counseling.

 

If I ran the pre-school, I would tell the family they could not return until they had some counseling. If you don't get him under control or out of there, his victims will start dropping out of the class. I know I would have my kid out of there ASAP.

[Frontier Mom]

There is such a thing as psychological imbalance and I personally would require the Mom to stay with him at ALL TIMES if I felt this way. It isn't your responsibility to address this behavior.

 

As Barney Fife profoundly stated, "Nip it in the bud."

[I talk to the trees]

This child needs help. Now. These are not normal behaviors, especially the hurting small animals thing. I would direct the parents to a respectable child psychologist. And I agree that I would ask the family not to return until these behaviors are dealt with and under control. Full stop.

 

-Robin

[PiCO]

Adapted from a recent online discussion. Dear Carolyn: My parents called to warn me about an elderly uncle we are having dinner lineage 2 adena with this weekend. He's in his 90s and has always been outspoken. Apparently nothing is holding him back now, and his conversations are peppered with racist filth.

 

What??? Was this posted in the wrong place?

[Ria]

I think it must be a spammer.

 

Ria

[beansprouts]

What??? Was this posted in the wrong place?

 

 

Spam. View post history, they are all very similar. I have already reported it.

[jojomojo]

It's spam.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Adapted from a recent online discussion. Dear Carolyn: My parents called to warn me about an elderly uncle we are having dinner lineage 2 adena with this weekend. He's in his 90s and has always been outspoken. Apparently nothing is holding him back now, and his conversations are peppered with racist filth.

 

Reported this as spam. Don't click the link, just in case.

[beansprouts]

Liberty, that is very disturbing behavior. I feel badly for the little boy and the thoughts and emotions he must be struggling with. I agree counseling should be proposed. Do you know anything about his history?

[FO4UR]

Yikes! I would NOT allow the child to be in the classroom either. I am agreeing that he needs professional help.

 

I worked in daycare/preschools through college, and I have met a little boy just like this - sadly. I understand. There is a heavy burden to help this child, yet you can't let him put others in danger at the same time.

[Murphy101]

I think this boy and his family need to be in counseling.

 

If I ran the pre-school, I would tell the family they could not return until they had some counseling. If you don't get him under control or out of there, his victims will start dropping out of the class. I know I would have my kid out of there ASAP.

 

I wouldn't say they had to do counseling, simply because that alone doesn't mean the behavior has or is going to stop.

 

I'd be far more blunt. If it happens again, he will no longer be allowed to attend the preschool.

 

I really have no issues with them taking him to counseling, but the bottom line is those other kids shouldn't have to be treated like that and saying, "He's in counseling." isn't going to make their bruises go away or their parents any happier about bringing their kid to your preschool.

 

Just my .02

[Ottakee]

I do agree that the boy needs some professional help. Is he adopted? Any history of abuse/neglect/drug exposure/alcohol exposure? There might also be a mental illness piece here as well.

 

I would request that the parents seek out some professional help---a top notch pediatric psychiatrist would be a good place to start.

 

I have had foster children like this and they are TOUGH to parent. Try to remember that the mom is likely doing the best she knows how with him and is at a loss and greatly frustrated/burned out as well.

[Karen sn]

Up until the hurting small animals thing, it sounded like its a parental issue. But animal cruelty is a huge red flag. I think the boy might need the help of a professional. But how can you tell a mom that?

 

I think that would be hard to witness too :(

 

I think telling the mom that NOW would be better than the cops showing up at her door later with a search warrant for some deviant criminal. If no one does anything now, we have failed another kid.

[lionfamily1999]

Does the boy get left anywhere else?

 

His behavior indicates abuse. It would be a good idea to let the parents know, especially his mother since it would appear he's hiding his activities from her, that there is a good chance their son is being abused. Speaking to whomever supervises you would be a good idea as well.

 

Kids don't do these things to this extent without a reason. The need to hurt and destroy could be a response to a feeling of helplessness and pain. You could also try talking to him, most four-year-olds have vocabularies capable of expressing emotion (fear, anger, etc).

 

Who knows, maybe he watched a particularly bad movie or something?

[jojomojo]

I think telling the mom that NOW would be better than the cops showing up at her door later with a search warrant for some deviant criminal. If no one does anything now, we have failed another kid.

 

I wasn't suggesting she wait. I majored in psych....I know how serious those signs are. All I was saying is how do you go about telling a mom her child is showing the early signs of psychopathic illness? I was just commiserating how hard of a situation this is, I guess.

 

I agree though, the boy needs professional help now.

[Carol in Cal.]

He needs a better ratio of kids to adults than a normal drop off preschool would have, and in a parent coop setting it would be more likely viewed as normal if his mom stayed all the time. And his mom does need to stay all the time, and someone needs to shadow him, in a subtle way, to keep the kids all safe.

 

My DD attended a parent coop and there were about 3 kids who were more or less like this during the time that we were there. One was very young and didn't fit in, and we taught him to behave appropriately while keeping everyone else feeling safe. The other two were quite difficult. In one case the mom was in total denial, and also a big donor to the school, and it was a disaster. Nothing was stuck to, and nothing worked, and the kid did not get the help that he clearly needed. The situation drove a lot of families out of the school, which had an elementary school as well as the preschool. This kid's extreme and frightening violence was enough to make most of his class attend a different elementary school--something that had never happened before. In first grade he tried to choke two children on the playground to death.

 

In the other case, the mom took full responsibility--it was extremely impressive. She stayed every single day, she facilitated his behavior very effectively, and I think that she got counselling for him as well. It took a couple of years but he turned around completely. She was so responsible that I even brought my DD over to their house for playdates once or twice--I knew that I could trust her even though I could not trust him.

 

This child needs help very badly--probably OT as well as counselling.

 

Also, it's important that his parents not put him in martial arts. Believe it or not, this is fairly common with violent kids IME--parents decide that if they put them in martial arts they will be able to channel that aggression to self-control and appropriate behavior. Invariably, though, all it ends up doing is arming them and making them more of a danger to others.

 

It's really sad to reach this conclusion about a 4 year old. I have been there, done that, and I still can hardly believe the things that I recall.

[tibbyl]

I've been volunteering in a local Christian preschool. All the kids are great and I've really enjoyed them until the new kid showed up. This boy has tremendous separation anxiety issues when his mother leaves, so his mother started hanging around while he's there (she feels as an only child the boy needs to start socializing). Anyway, everytime the boy's mother leaves the room, he turns into something else entirely--the vision that comes to mind is the child from that old, old movie "The Bad Seed." I hate to put it that way, but the facts are that he will reach over and hurt others, like pull hair or hit them on the head. Or he will take away whatever's in their hand or deliberately destroy their property (ie. tower of blocks, art project, etc...). He is maliscious and destructive and out-right defiant when the lead teacher tells him what to do.

 

It is so disturbing to me. I want to cry when I see him turn into this other person. When we tell his mother, she tells him to stop but doesn't really do any other discipline (may be a clue there). Also, the mother has mentioned that the boy can't be trusted with small animals and has been caught hurting them despite everything they've tried to do to get him to stop (!!!).

 

What would cause a small 4yo boy to act like this? Being undiscriplined is one thing, but this is something I've never encountered and it really horrifies me for some reason. Has anyone ever had experience with something like this?

 

I had a problem with animal cruelty in my home with a foster child. I will not under any circumstances tolerate cruelty to animals, regardless of the child's past which may include physical, sexual, or emotional abuse or psychiatric problems.

 

My choice would be to go straight to director to tell him/her what mother has said about boy and ask that boy be removed immediately from the school. There would be no second chances, no "working" with the child or mother.

[T Baer]

I wasn't suggesting she wait. I majored in psych....I know how serious those signs are. All I was saying is how do you go about telling a mom her child is showing the early signs of psychopathic illness? I was just commiserating how hard of a situation this is, I guess.

 

I agree though, the boy needs professional help now.

 

You don't want her to shoot the messenger and thus miss the message. I would have on hand some suggestions of treatment places or material that she can read later if she is receptive. Go to her in the spirit that you want to assist her in helping her son get along better with others as that is her goal for having her child there. If others are brave enough to tell her, she might get the message if she doesn't get it the 1st time. It sounds like she may be dealing with other stuff not necessarily related to her son and could use a friend.

[asta]

I just wanted to point out that it isn't always abuse. This kind of thing can also be a sign of mental illness, which most people do not consider when dealing with young children.

 

:iagree:

[lionfamily1999]

I just wanted to point out that it isn't always abuse. This kind of thing can also be a sign of mental illness, which most people do not consider when dealing with young children.

I would not think that kids could hide mental illness from their parents. IOW, she knows about the animal cruelty, but apparently not the extent of her son's abuse towards other people. If it was a mental illness, wouldn't his behavior be uniformly bad?

[Murphy101]

I would not think that kids could hide mental illness from their parents. IOW, she knows about the animal cruelty, but apparently not the extent of her son's abuse towards other people. If it was a mental illness, wouldn't his behavior be uniformly bad?

 

No, not neccessaryily.

Mental illness can present in many different ways.

 

Nothing may be getting "hidden" from his parents.

They might be refusing to see it or see it as strongly as we are.

Also this is an only child and a first child, so in their world - they may honestly not know how abnormal it is. They might be thinking they just have a very difficult child.

And because they've been dealing with it for four years, they might be less sensitive to the situation than someone on the outside looking in because as bad as it seems, it's become a normal part of their lives.

 

There's many, many reasons mental illness goes untreated or undiagnosed.

[Chris in VA]

Just wanted to add that sometimes it is easy to be in denial about your own child. I did that for a while--excused every behaviour by saying others didn't know the circumstances, or who my child was, or whatever. Even cruelty to animals can be "explained away" as just a mood, or "he didn't really know his own strength" or "he didn't really mean it," or "he didn't know do that would really hurt/kill it." It's amazing what can be overlooked by parents.

 

And, it is the Director of the Preschool's job to deal with the parent, so the teacher is safe from any repercussions.

[Ferdie]

If it is mental illness would a child be able to turn his behavior on and off when his parent went in and out of a room?

 

The separation anxiety is actually a healthly thing. It means the child has attached to his mom which is a very good sign. The best thing for her to do is to drop him off and leave. After a few weeks it will be easy for him. The fact that she is hanging around is probably confusing him and he is learning how to manipulate her with his behavior. When we did foster parenting I used to think that the toddlers that never cried of fussed when they were dropped off were well adjusted. Our social worker told us that the opposite was true. They never cried or fussed because they had never bonded to a primary care provider and they had attachment disorder. So separation anxiety can be a good thing.

 

The child's behavior around other children sounds exactly like my ds. My youngest is an "alpha dog" and his natural instinct is to rule over others by force. When he was that age if he wanted something he grabbed it. If someone upset him he tried to resolve the matter with his fists. Even if someone accidentally bumped into him, his first instinct was to get physical. He wants to phyically dominate other people to show his superiority. I don't think dominance over others necessarily means he has been abused or is mentally ill. He might just need full time supervision and someone to train him how to get along with others without using force - especially if he is an only child.

 

I'm not sure about the animal cruelty issue. Is he torturing animals, (major flag) or just squashing bugs, (normal). I think 4 years old is a little young for some children to be left alone with a pet. My youngest loves animals, but at that age I don't know if he really understood the difference between a real animal and a stuffed toy. Also the animal cruelty issue doesn't jive with the separation anxiety. Usually cruelty to animals is a sign of attachment disorder, yet this child has clearly bonded to his Mom.

 

Honestly, I would have your preschool coordinator handle the issues regarding this boy. She needs to determine if the preschool is the right environment for him and if she can keep the other children safe when he is in attendance. She should probably handle the communications with the boys parents, too.

[lionfamily1999]

And, it is the Director of the Preschool's job to deal with the parent, so the teacher is safe from any repercussions.

Which is why she should hand the problem over to her supervisor or whomever is next up on the chain of command.

 

:iagree: That parents can overlook SOME behavior, but it seemed like what was described in the original post would be impossible to ignore.

[swellmomma]

If it is mental illness would a child be able to turn his behavior on and off when his parent went in and out of a room?

 

 

 

Yes, I have 2 children who can do this though they often turn on the bad behaviour for me and turn it off for others. My oldest was like teh child described by the op including the animal cruelty. We have been seeking medical treatment for him since infancy, it's only now at 10 when I have worked my tail off dealing with him, tracking down leads and treatments that I am getting answers. On of his many diagnoses is ODD, my daughter has conduct disorder which is far worse to deal with. Children with ODD or conduct disorder can certainly turn their behaviours off and on to suit their needs, have major issues with authority and are extremely manipulative. LEft untreated the prognosis is dismal with treatment they have as good a chance at a normal productive life as the next guy.

 

A couple thoughts on this, 1. the parent obviously knows something is not right but may not be able to put her finger on it. Look up ODD and print off some info and attach the contact information for some ped psychiatrists. Tell her that this seems to sound like her son and you know that with help he can turn the behaviour around. 2. Parents of ODD children are often seen as the problem, that it is a parenting problem when it is not. It is a mental illness and is to be treated as such, she did not cause her child to be this way, it is not from a lack of parenting, or bad parenting etc. Both of my kids take medication to help deal with the behaviours associated with ODD/CD specifically the agressive nature of it.

 

Also we have finally gotten into a private OT for assessment of my son. They believe he has sensory processing disorder and as a result of trying to cope with the stimulus around him my son is also very rough. He does extremely well with me there but without me he is lost. THis is a coping/problem solving issue. In addition to all of that he has anxiety disorder which causes him to lash out, and ADHD. WHen you combine all of these mental issues you end up with a very seriously messed up kid, that scares the pants of you and makes you think you are raising the next serial killer.

 

This mom may be in denial, or in pure fear, or just be lost not knowing what to do. Jumping to conclusions that the child is being abused is not helpful and puts the blame back on the parent instead of considering the fact that while yes there *may* be something going on and the parent is the problem more likely there is a mental health issue going on that needs to be addressed. And speaking from experience the sooner the better.