deleted topic

[maize]

5 minutes ago, Joker said:

Yeah, I understood her comment to be about this situation and in regards to other LGBTQ kids. I can't imagine it being healthy to tell a ten year old, "It's fine if your gay because you can just be celibate your whole life". I would think that could be quite damaging.

I wasn't thinking about the ten year old specifically, but given that religion is quite important to some ten year olds it is also potentially damaging to not present them with an option that would allow for both a gay identity and living within the prescribed bounds of their religion.

They obviously don't need to be making any permanent decisions at age ten.

Sexual identity is not the only significant human identity.

[Joker]

Just now, maize said:

I wasn't thinking about the ten year old specifically, but given that religion is quite important to some ten year olds it is also potentially damaging to not present them with an option that would allow for both a gay identity and living within the prescribed bounds of their religion.

They obviously don't need to be making any permanent decisions at age ten.

Sexual identity is not the only significant human identity.

I was thinking about a 10 year old and how you have no idea how they would truly take that idea. It could be they are thankful you put it out there but it could also be they come away feeling like that is what is expected to stay a part of the family and faith so they have to follow. I think it would be much wiser, and less damaging, to hold off on that line of discussion until older. 

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

I wasn't thinking about the ten year old specifically, but given that religion is quite important to some ten year olds it is also potentially damaging to not present them with an option that would allow for both a gay identity and living within the prescribed bounds of their religion.

They obviously don't need to be making any permanent decisions at age ten.

Sexual identity is not the only significant human identity.

LGBTQ people who are given this idea, by and large, find it to be hurtful, not empowering. The message is not generally heard as "you can be who you are and keep your faith" but rather as "you can only be who you are and keep your faith and family if you commit to a life of loneliness and limited close relationships because your relationships and love is dangerous." So, again, the gamble is the one I named above - you're risking your kid's psychological health and their relationship with you. In my experience, the only real empowering solution - even for those who identify as ace - is really to find a different expression of that religious faith.

In terms of a 10 yo... they're not thinking about doing anything much romantic or sexual anyway. The context of that message is going to be very long term. And if you think they won't somehow get it anyway at some point as someone in a religious community or with parents in such a community... I mean, they will. That option will present itself from somewhere at some point. So then it's really whether the parents want to embrace that idea and risk the kid hearing that way.

[maize]

I do realize that family rejection is a real and significant issue. 

It is not only way that religiously conservative families handle matters when a family member steps outside the bounds of their faith. 

There are families that continue to maintain close, supportive family ties through the complexities of faith and lifestyle transitions.

I know; I belong to one of those families. I have nine siblings, all raised in a religious home. Half of us as adults have stayed in the religion we were raised in and hold that religion as the foundation of our lives and choices. 

And half have chosen other paths. 

And... my brothers and sisters--all of them--remain my closest friends and strongest support network. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by maize

[Joker]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

I do realize that family rejection is a real and significant issue. 

It is not only way that religiously conservative families handle matters when a family member steps outside the bounds of their faith. 

There are families that continue to maintain close, supportive family ties through the complexities of faith and lifestyle transitions.

I know; I belong to one of those families. I have nine siblings, all raised in a religious home. Half of us as adults have stayed in the religion we were raised in and hold that religion as the foundation of our lives and choices. 

And half have chosen other paths. 

And... my brothers and sisters--all of them--remain my closest friends and strongest support network. 

That's awesome but I don't think it's the norm unfortunately. My own conservative religious family was fine with many steps outside the bounds of our family faith - until LGBTQ issues. That was the line and it's one I find common in many religious circles and families I know. 

IDK, this topic gets to me because I've met so many LGBTQ teens and young adults whose faith is very important to them and they have felt they had to walk away, pretend to be something they're not, or be celibate for the rest of their lives. My own dc were those kids but fortunately we found our way from the Catholic church to the Episcopal church and they still get to practice their faith but in a more affirming, loving, and welcoming environment. I really feel for those kids who aren't shown other options besides keep strictly to our faith / be celibate or walk away. 

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, maize said:

I do realize that family rejection is a real and significant issue. 

It is not only way that religiously conservative families handle matters when a family member steps outside the bounds of their faith. 

There are families that continue to maintain close, supportive family ties through the complexities of faith and lifestyle transitions.

I know; I being to one of those families. I have nine siblings, all raised in a religious home. Half of us as adults have stayed in the religion we were raised in and hold that religion as the foundation of our lives and choices. 

And half have chosen other paths. 

And... my brothers and sisters--all of them--remain my closest friends and strongest support network. 

There are. I don't want to imply that there aren't families that make the cognitive dissonance of it work. In the families I know of, everyone essentially agrees to avoid the issue. Because they're adults, which makes it a heck of a lot easier. The members who are LGBTQ have decided that they're willing to let go of the hurts caused, not that they weren't caused. And that's the thing with that sort of hurt... it's like a disease. It always makes the victims ill... some recover and are fine and it's just a memory of the pain, some bear scars that they'll carry forever, and a few even die.

I think society is possibly making this harder and harder. Kids come out younger and younger. Part (not all, for sure) of what makes abuse into abuse is when the attitude expressed by the family is so out of step with mainstream attitudes around kid. I think for adults today - especially people in their late 30's and up - it's easier to say, my parents' attitudes and beliefs were not so out of step with the messages I was getting from society around me growing up. They hurt, but so did so many people. And therefore it's easier to move on from them. That's changing. So then the dissonance is changing too. Just practically speaking, I think that makes it harder. If this kid does stick to what he said and he's gay, then that's pretty different from telling your parents that you're gay as a college student in the 80's or 90's and having to deal with a bunch of fallout. He's still going to be at home in his parents' power for nearly as long as he's already been alive.

[umsami]

3 hours ago, StellaM said:

Do you know any gay Muslims or gay ex-Muslims?

I kinda feel like that's the source of advice she needs right now.

I really do not think that a lot of rah-rah secular queer advice is going to be good for her or her son.

 

I know two adults IRL who are closeted to the Muslim community, but out in their normal life.  I know one of my kids' friends is a lesbian--but she thinks nobody else knows. I have no idea if that's true or not (that nobody else knows.) 

All of my kids know that if any of their friends come out as gay (or are outed) and need a place to stay, our home is safe.  DD told one of her friends who came out on National Coming Out Day this (but her family has no idea.) 

I used to know of some online groups and such...I may reach out to them.

Being Muslim and gay is not safe for most, sadly. 

[maize]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

There are. I don't want to imply that there aren't families that make the cognitive dissonance of it work.

The cognitive dissonance of...believing and trying to live according to direction one believes to be divine while also acting in love towards people who do not live by the same direction? Given that love for others is part of the divine direction, not dissonant at all.

I realize that the only option some would accept is that all religions become 100% supportive of homosexual relationships. I am not sure why anyone would believe that overturning the religious foundation of millions of lives by rejecting their scriptural and revelatory foundations would be the healthiest and least harmful path forward. That looks to me like a complete lack of understanding of and respect for religious sentiment and identity.

There isn't a way to make all parts of human society fully supportive of the entire range of human choice and experience. There will always be tough spots. Living in a society with other humans who think, feel, and act in a wide variety of ways is always going to be messy.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by maize

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, maize said:

How about young people who chose to follow their own sincere religious beliefs?

No, I don't think it is psychologically healthy to be celibate because your religion has led you to believe you're bad simply for being born gay.

I would imagine that the vast majority of young people making that choice are doing so because of tremendous pressure from their family and church community, though.

[Farrar]

15 minutes ago, maize said:

There cognitive dissonance of...believing and trying to live according to direction one believes to be divine while also acting in love towards people who do not live by the same direction? Given that love for others is part of the divine direction, not dissonant at all.

I realize that the only option some would accept is that all religions become 100% supportive of homosexual relationships. I am not sure why anyone would believe that overturning the religious foundation of millions of lives by rejecting their scriptural and revelatory foundations would be the healthiest and least harmful path forward. That looks to me like a complete lack of understanding of and respect for religious sentiment and identity.

There isn't a way to make all parts of human society fully supportive of the entire range of human choice and experience. There will always be tough spots. Living in a society with other humans who think, feel, and act in a wide variety of ways is always going to be messy.

 

I get that for many devout religious folks, that there is no cognitive dissonance. And that they perceive their approach as loving.

For LGBTQ folks, that tends to not be the case when dealing with religion that does not recognize their right to healthy, consensual, adult relationships. And that love is not typically received as truly unconditional. So there is a dissonance there.

I know that both sides see each other as self-centered. To me, there's something very self-centered about the belief that only the religious person's sense of their own love and not how it's perceived is all that matters.

Again, I think all of this is SO much easier to deal with when it's adults who can make adult choices about their own lives. I mean, I can totally say, okay, I am fine to let most people live and let live with their individual beliefs. I'm happy to find common ground with other adults and not worry about their beliefs about other things. It gets harder when it's my rights. And there are lines. But... it's still a thing that I can do much of the time for most issues. But when it comes to kids... it's harder. They're not adults on equal footing with their parents (nor am I saying they should be) to live and let live and find common ground. That's very hard.

 

[maize]

Taking a bit of a tangent here, just a thought sparked by this discussion:

I am not at all sure that the current focus on external identity affirmation as critical to individual happiness is healthy. I think that to some extent when we set up an expectation of total affirmation we also set people up for unhappiness if they don't receive that affirmation.

(Edited to remove story; thank you everyone for respecting my request not to quote it.)

Is this really where the bar is set? Absolutely everyone must affirm every pronouncement of identity lest the fragile psyche collapse?

I remain befuddled.

Fortunately there is still lots of middle ground between "kick the 15 year old LBGTQ kid out of the house" and "jump in with praise for every pronouncement of shifting identity".

Edited January 26, 2020 by maize

[katilac]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

btw: she was pretty mad at her (politically correct) mother for just how "supportive/encouraging" she was about living a homosexual lifestyle - she ended up not speaking to her for awhile as an adult as well.

Wow, how sad. I hope she's gained the maturity to see that her mom did what she thought was best, and that many people would love to have a parent who supported them and their decisions. And that's what it was - her announcement, her decision, her . . . well, I'm not going to say homesexual lifestyle, because that's just weird. I'm on the straight side, but I don't go around saying I live a straight lifestyle. Anyway, her mom may have erred on the over enthusiastic side, lol, but ya gotta own some things in life, and who you choose have sex with is one of them for sure.  

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

I personally think it's incredibly unfair on a spouse for a gay or lesbian person to marry them as a 'fix'. If you are gay, you are not sexually attracted to your wife, and that's just...not OK.

It is sometimes very much known to the future spouse. It's a bit of a thing in some American Christian churches. 

When you go back to marriages 40 or more years in the past, my guess is that the person may not have even had a clear understanding that they were gay. Some American religious communities are very insular, and back then it was much easier to raise a kid in a bubble (no internet). Those who did acknowledge the feelings on some level were raised to think that, not only were those feelings beyond wrong, but they could be changed and 'overcome.' Combine that with some churches encouraging early marriage, and the fact that you could actually be sent to prison for having gay sex, and I can empathize. 

3 hours ago, maize said:

I frankly have very little sympathy for middle aged men who leave a wife they claim to love because they have decided their personal sexual fulfillment is more important than a marriage that has lasted decades.

(I am not saying I would encourage someone to enter into a mixed orientation marriage; I'm talking here about the all-too-common story of one spouse--more often the husband--leaving a marriage that has lasted decades to seek greater sexual fulfillment.)

Guess I'm just not a believer in sexual identity and sexual fulfillment being the big determiner in decisions that are going to hurt other people.  

 

I think most people would say it's about more than sexual fulfillment. Although it's certainly often about that in part, the romantic and emotional aspects are often key.  I'll grant that even sex, romance, and emotion all together are not everything, but they are a great deal. Forever giving up the chance to ever experience romantic love in your life is significant; it's not always about good sex. Many couples don't have good sex or any sex, but they still have a romantic love and attachment. How or why does that work? I have no idea, but I know, bone-deep, that I may love a lot of my same sex friends and could even see building a life with some of them, but it would never be romantic love. 

Also, I wouldn't want my spouse to stay quiet. I'd want to know and I'd want to have a choice. I might be the one who wants some sexual fulfillment after being straight married to a gay person, lol. 

2 hours ago, klmama said:

????  This child announced he was gay.  Of course he knows what that means.  He's also Muslim, which is the key issue here.  Acting on same-sex attraction is considered wrong in his faith tradition; if that attraction continues, somehow the conflict will need to be addressed.  Abstinence offers a solution that doesn't require him to reject his faith. 

Bolding by me: Other posters said something similar, but let's not lose sight of the fact that many American Christian families and communities would have just as much of a problem with it. 

Going back to the OP, I agree that what you would say to your own kids doesn't necessarily apply. He definitely needs to be aware of possible social and family ramifications and of course any possible danger. If your friend can offer him quiet support if coming out isn't wise or safe right now, that would mean a lot. 

Being gay and coming out is, in general, much harder on boys than girls. It has much bigger social risks. While I think it's very natural for both boys and girls to ponder different aspects of their sexuality and have same sex crushes that fade away, I think it's much rarer for boys to let anyone know about it. When a tween or young teen boy says they're gay, it's usually solid information ime. 

[katilac]

45 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Clearly I was not up on the current social requirement to a) obsessively track the social media pronouncements of people in my circle to make sure I don't miss a public declaration of sexual identity and b) respond promptly with praise and affirmation for the courage and true-ness-to-self of the poster.

Is this really where the bar is set? Absolutely everyone must affirm every pronouncement of identity lest the fragile psyche collapse?

 

Eh, one person sent a message to her family, that's all I take it for. I don't think one person gets to set the bar, lol. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Taking a bit of a tangent here, just a thought sparked by this discussion:

Only quoting to reference.

I have a lot of complex, personal views about the situation you posted. But generally I think it's both positive to share one's own views about one's identity and immature to expect everyone to celebrate it exactly how you want. It also strikes me that the situation you describe is as much about Facebook crap as it is about questions of identity.

One of the things I get weary about is people on both ends of things using individual bad actors to judge the group. I mean, yeah, there are trends there... but one person being demanding that everyone affirm them just the way they want (and I don't know that I would describe that particular anecdote exactly that way, but I've certainly seen more egregious examples) doesn't mean that coming out or inviting in or announcing aspects of identity are negative on the whole. I see some of this as a pendulum swing correction because - as this very thread shows - it's not like as a society we're totally there in terms of acceptance or tolerance or willingness to live and let live. The LGBTQ community had an explicit strategy to claim rights which included basically being in peoples' faces about it. Those rights are still not legally in place across the board. Until they are... I don't think things like coming out announcements in general are going away.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Don't quote this story

 I agree that it is unrealistic to expect everybody to respond to social media posts, but I want to comment on the way you were phrasing your narrative:

it may indeed have been life changing for this person to acknowledge their sexual orientation - whether they repressed it until then, didn't fully realize it, or always knew and were closeted. Putting bisexual in parentheses seems to imply that you do not believe that is really a thing, and that it can possibly matter if this person is in a straight relationship. It may come as a surprise to hear that for many bisexual individuals this part of their identity is extremely important and that acknowledging it to themselves, their partners, and their community is necessary for them to feel authentic in their personality. It does not mean that they are going to abandon their partner or be promiscuous, but it means much for them to have the courage to say "this is part of me, and I am no longer willing to deny it because the burden of keeping this hidden is too heavy and it is choking me."  This may not make immediate sense to a straight person who has the privilege of living in a  heteronormative society because they never have to question or hide their sexual orientation, but it doesn't make it any less real and does not deserve parentheses as if bisexuality is some kind of a joke.

ETA: Oh, and the age of the person is also completely irrelevant. Sexuality is fluid (in women more so than men). People's sexual orientation can change over the course of a lifetime. There is plenty of research; science is just beginning to delve into this. So, being straight today is no guarantee that a person won't develop same sex attractions later in life. Unsettling, isn't it? 

Edited January 26, 2020 by regentrude

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

 I agree that it is unrealistic to expect everybody to respond to social media posts, but I want to comment on the way you were phrasing your narrative:

it may indeed have been life changing for this person to acknowledge their sexual orientation - whether they repressed it until then, didn't fully realize it, or always knew and were closeted. Putting "bisexual" it in parentheses seems to imply that you do not believe that is really a thing, and that it can possibly matter when the person is in a straight relationship. It may come as a surprise to hear that for many bisexual individuals this part of their identity is extremely important and that acknowledging it to themselves, their partners, and their community is necessary for them to feel authentic in their personality. It does not mean that they are going to abandon their partner or be promiscuous, but it means much for them to have the courage to say "this is part of me, and I am no longer willing to deny it because the burden of keeping this hidden is too heavy and it is choking me."  This may not make immediate sense to a straight person who has the privilege of living in a  heteronormative society because they never have to deal with that, but it doesn't make it any less real and does not deserve parentheses as if bisexuality is some kind of a joke.

Thank you. We get it from all ends. And it sucks.

[maize]

13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 I agree that it is unrealistic to expect everybody to respond to social media posts, but I want to comment on the way you were phrasing your narrative:

it may indeed have been life changing for this person to acknowledge their sexual orientation - whether they repressed it until then, didn't fully realize it, or always knew and were closeted. Putting bisexual in parentheses seems to imply that you do not believe that is really a thing, and that it can possibly matter if this person is in a straight relationship. It may come as a surprise to hear that for many bisexual individuals this part of their identity is extremely important and that acknowledging it to themselves, their partners, and their community is necessary for them to feel authentic in their personality. It does not mean that they are going to abandon their partner or be promiscuous, but it means much for them to have the courage to say "this is part of me, and I am no longer willing to deny it because the burden of keeping this hidden is too heavy and it is choking me."  This may not make immediate sense to a straight person who has the privilege of living in a  heteronormative society because they never have to question or hide their sexual orientation, but it doesn't make it any less real and does not deserve parentheses as if bisexuality is some kind of a joke.

ETA: Oh, and the age of the person is also completely irrelevant. Sexuality is fluid (in women more so than men). People's sexual orientation can change over the course of a lifetime. There is plenty of research; science is just beginning to delve into this. So, being straight today is no guarantee that a person won't develop same sex attractions later in life. Unsettling, isn't it? 

I didn't put bisexual in parentheses.

I did put coming out in parentheses, probably because it seemed (still seems) odd to me that someone would feel a need to declare their sexuality to the world publicly when it affects nothing about their public life. "I'm bisexual, let me introduce my new girlfriend" makes sense because there is a public context. I see no public context for "hey all, just thought I'd announce my current sexual orientation identity that affects nothing in my public life, marriage, etc; just thought you should all know!"

Yes it is an identity thing. Not just a personal identity though--that's what I am getting at. Every identity must be publicly displayed and affirmed. 

Yep female sexuality does seem to be rather fluid. Are you making public assumptions about mine? 

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, maize said:

I didn't put bisexual in parentheses.

I did put coming out in parentheses, probably because it seemed (still seems) odd to me that someone would feel a need to declare their sexuality to the world publicly when it affects nothing about their public life. "I'm bisexual, let me introduce my new girlfriend" makes sense because there is a public context. I see no public context for "hey all, just thought I'd announce my current sexual orientation identity that affects nothing in my public life, marriage, etc; just thought you should all know!"

Yes it is an identity thing. Not just a personal identity though--that's what I am getting at. Every identity must be publicly displayed and affirmed. 

Yep female sexuality does seem to be rather fluid. Are you making public assumptions about mine? 

sorry for misreading - my comment won't change because I don't find coming out to deserve parentheses either. 

Whether it affects their public life or not, it may be an important step for that person in owning their identity. It may be part of their processing and coming to terms with something they might have been struggling with. It may take a weight of their soul. Coming out is powerful for the individual, and a step like this can bring incredible relief.  

I am not making any assumptions about your sexuality. I merely pointed out that something we like to think of as fixed isn't - and that can suddenly hit us in the face in our 20s or in our 50s. And then we have to deal with us as best as we can. Which for some humans may include coming out in public. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by regentrude

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

I find social media affirmation rituals to be a bit cringy though, in general.

Yeah, it would not be my preferred medium of announcement either. But in the end, I don't see it as that different from wearing a pride button or publishing poems about it 😉

[umsami]

16 hours ago, StellaM said:

I personally think it's incredibly unfair on a spouse for a gay or lesbian person to marry them as a 'fix'. If you are gay, you are not sexually attracted to your wife, and that's just...not OK.

 

 

Missed this, but 100% agree with you.  Sadly, that is the advice that is given by some religious figures.  However, thankfully, I think it is far more common these days for a gay and lesbian Muslim to marry as a cover for each other.  While not ideal, neither has any illusions about the other being attracted to them or not.

[Farrar]

6 hours ago, kand said:

This is getting away from the OP, but I have to ask why you think this is true even for ace individuals. Just curious, as it does not seem incompatible to me. 

So... I don't know a ton of people who identify as asexual/aromantic/etc. so I'm definitely not an expert on this. But, I'll say what do I know which is that a lot of people who identify as ace do not identify as aro and vice versa. And a lot of people who identify as ace still enter relationships with other folks, and sometimes that includes brewing some tea. And they do this because the desire for connections and relationships is stronger than their lack of desire for a sexually specific connection. Because that's the other thing - not all people who identify as ace are also repulsed by sex. Some are, absolutely. but some people are more indifferent. And some people see it as something they want to do for a trusted partner the same way that you might cook a meal you don't like because your spouse loves it. Of course, sometimes people who are ace enter relationships that don't include a sip of tea - but the relationship is still romantic.

So... I think figuring all of that out - what you want and where you stand if you come to identify as ace - is still going to be utterly muddied by that choice between relationships and faith/family if that's the perspective that your community and parents are putting out there. I just don't see it as being a place where a person could come to figure that stuff out in that environment. I'm sure it helps to accept that if you don't have much drive because you probably think, great, that seems easy enough. Except relationships are about a lot more than this one thing. And while some religious groups might allow for homoromantic relationships that don't include sex (they're certainly following the letter of the law for most religions), many are not going to get it or not allow for it at all.

[Pen]

An aside for minutiae,  but I didn’t see any troubling parentheses.    (    ) = parentheses  

 

1 hour ago, umsami said:

Missed this, but 100% agree with you.  Sadly, that is the advice that is given by some religious figures.  However, thankfully, I think it is far more common these days for a gay and lesbian Muslim to marry as a cover for each other.  While not ideal, neither has any illusions about the other being attracted to them or not.

 

It is not ideal, no, but would be far better than marrying someone who was in love and expecting love and sexuality in marriage, not to be a sham cover up.   

It is certainly not the time for it at age 10 imo, but some years down the line if the boy is still feeling he’s gay and still wants to be Muslim (is leaving faith allowed without great risk?) that might perhaps be something your friend, his mother, could mention to him as a possibility.  A marriage with a lesbian woman who would be a close best friend and both know each other’s secret and be comfortable with it. 

 

[maize]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

An aside for minutiae,  but I didn’t see any troubling parentheses.    (    ) = parentheses 

 

Oh yeah, those things!

😄 laughing at myself for going along with the mis-use. Human brains...

It's like when I post something with horrible autocorrect substitutions and don't even catch them when proofreading because I see what I expect to see, not what is in front of my eyes.

regentrude and I understood each other's meaning, never mind the actual word.

Edited January 26, 2020 by maize

[Pen]

1 hour ago, umsami said:

  17 hours ago, StellaM said:

I personally think it's incredibly unfair on a spouse for a gay or lesbian person to marry them as a 'fix'. If you are gay, you are not sexually attracted to your wife, and that's just...not OK.

 

 

I missed it too.  And I totally, totally, totally agree!!!!!

I think “unfair” is a gross understatement.  I think marrying or even taking up someone’s time dating as a sham coverup of being gay is really emotionally abusive to that other person and a harm to their emotional life. I have know several women in this situation.  And my own life was adversely affected by it. 

 

 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

An aside for minutiae,  but I didn’t see any troubling parentheses.    (    ) = parentheses  

 

Dang it. Stupid brain fart. Quotation marks. Yes. My only defense is that this topic is a little bit emotional for me.  Sorry folks.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 think “unfair” is a gross understatement.  I think marrying or even taking up someone’s time dating as a sham coverup of being gay is really emotionally abusive to that other person and a harm to their emotional life. I have know several women in this situation.  And my own life was adversely affected by it. 

I am sorry you had that experience. 

I think often it can be more complicated than a sham coverup. The person may not be fully aware of their orientation.  Or they are convinced they can make it work. They may want what society considers a "normal " family. Deception is not always part of the equation (deliberately withholding this from a partner is never ok!)

A lesbian friend of mine made the conscious choice to marry a man and have children with him, and she and her DH have found solutions that make them both happy. Where it gets super hard is when people's sexual orientation *changes* later in life. Couples find different ways to deal with it; some relationships survive, others don't.  But I don't think that is anyone's fault 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

I have a few very close asexual friends/family and (anecdotes I know) and it's literally nothing. They just go about their lives, being asexual. There was nothing to figure out-- they just never wanted to shack up. And if they did want to be in a relationship with someone, they talked to them like grownups about it. Like we all have to do, either about that or about other sensitive things.  At least one of my friends is extremely uncomfortable with asexuality being lumped in with LGBT people as an oppressed minority. No one was ever denied a promotion or kicked out of a diner for being asexual. There's NO reason to include them as part of the movement for equal rights. 

bold- What religions (not cults) excommunicate people for not having sex?

So, I’ve known of a couple people who identify as ace who are in relationships. Like, dating, like, living with someone. I have no idea how much, if any, tea is being brewed. But the ability to form romantic attachments is apparently part of the deal for some people. It’s like the middle aged or even older person who leaves a straight marriage over identity. Some people tried to say, it’s so they can go off and selfishly brew tea. But that’s not always why. Because identity is about more than that. If you identify as both gay and ace then regardless of whether you’re having sex or not, some religions are not okay with you openly expressing that identity or showing same sex affection publicly. And, again, I think figuring out how you want your relationships or lack thereof to look in a community where it’s don’t have any or leave means you can’t really make a choice.

ETA: In terms of rights... I mean, yeah in terms of getting fired and so forth. But being ace/aro was something that I was originally schooled about by someone who said it was a breaking point for her with society sometimes- that she gets sick of how often others tell her she’s psychologically damaged for not wanting sex or romance. Like legal discrimination, no. But social, she felt yes. I don’t really fully get it... but I also don’t feel like I have to. If for your friends, it’s a nothing no big deal, that’s awesome.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Farrar

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Oh my goodness, no to the poems!

Trying to understand the comment 🙂 

For many queer poets I know it's a rather important subject to write about. Do you think they shouldn't?

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

QFT

I had to google what this means 🙂. Somehow, Quantum Field Theory didn't seem to fit.

[Farrar]

15 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

I hear what you're saying, and I sense the love and respect you're endeavoring to show here. ❤️ 

But to me, it's closer to a tee-totaller. In fact they probably get guff than asexual people more often, as a rule.  

Or, like, gifted people. It gets lonely out in the streets. Still not discrimination. Not even remotely closing in on oppression. 

That’s my gut for ace by itself as a concept. I mean, I don’t really disagree.

But I think what some people are saying is that people who are ace cannot also experience homophobia because they’re ace or that clearly it should be okay for them to stay in communities that are homophobic even if they also identify as gay and I’m saying that’s definitely not true.

[regentrude]

.

Edited January 31, 2020 by regentrude

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I don't use that concept (queer) at the request of my (lesbian) dd who chooses to prioritise the voices of gay and lesbian elders who still view it as a slur, and have no interest in reclaiming it. So it's hard for me to answer that question.

Do you mean, it's sometimes important for gay men and lesbian women to write about sex in poetry ? Yeah, just like it is for straight poets.

Not always my funnest reads (either way) because I'm pretty disinterested in love/sex as a topic for poetic discourse. I mean, btdt, and I think most people get more interesting the further they write away from their dominant, socially presented identity.

may be cultural difference between our countries- here, many communities have reclaimed the term "queer" and prefer it to label themselves, especially if they don't fall neatly into the binary - but that's not important for my point.

I didn't mean sex being the theme of the poetry. I was referring to the struggles of coming to terms and owning one's orientation as the theme. 

 

[TravelingChris]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:34 AM, Frances said:

Personally, I think it’s silly that our society encourages crushes of any type when kids are still elementary aged. I’ve always been puzzled by parents who think it is so cute for very young kids to “like” each other and even encourage and talk about it to others. It was not at all a thing among my son’s circle of friends (both boys and girls) or at his large homeschool center, until kids reached high school. And these were not conservative, religious people.

During my son’s one semester at a public charter school as an eleven year old, I also thought the teacher’s involvement in discussing this and encouraging it among sixth graders was ridiculous. 

Both my dh and I had crushes in early elementary onward.  We never mentioned it to anyone.  I think it happens quite often but i know we would have been mortified if anyone had noticed (and at least in my case, it was not noticeable-since I never talked with him, stared, etc)  and encouraged such behavior.  Heck- both dh and I weren't interested in anyone encouraging us to date or anything ever.  Dh took a girl to prom.  I walked around with a boy in the 9th grade junior high school graduation field trip to Kings Dominion and we held hands but we didn't take it any further and I moved almost immediately after ninth grade and he would have been going to another high school.  I didn't go to high school prom or any dances though I had been to at least one middle school dance.  Both dh and I started dating in college so in terms of real dating, we were late.  In terms of romantic interest, we were early.

But I agree, children change and what someone says at age 9 may be very different or may not. 

[TravelingChris]

On 1/25/2020 at 2:57 PM, klmama said:

Besides reassuring this child that he is very young and that his feelings may change, I would also want him to know that being attracted doesn't mean he has to act on that attraction.  People with same-sex attraction can choose celibacy and can build happy lives for themselves without romantic involvement.  That message doesn't get shared much in our secular society, but it is a welcome relief to those who don't wish to go against their religious beliefs.

This

[TravelingChris]

On 1/25/2020 at 3:01 PM, Slache said:

I've known several homosexual Christians who've chosen a heterosexual lifestyle as well.

And politicians, celebrities, etc.  Not all were Christian either. 

[umsami]

3 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I guess it's no worse than a green card marriage.

I have to say though, and this is not meant as disrespect to you personally, but I think it's much healthier for a gay man and lesbian woman to leave a religion that forces them to live a lie for acceptance. It's really not OK.

Or ya know, move to Melbourne (has a gay friendly mosque..there must be others).

 

There are gay friendly mosques...but they are pretty much exclusively in Western countries...and even in those countries, rare, and limited to large cities.  There are huge expectations of  getting married among Muslims--so I think that is why.  I don't view it as really a green card marriage (know a few of those), because these couples usually live together as friends....and some may even have children together (whether IVF is used, I really wouldn't know.) .  I hope things will continue to change and become more accepting.  I'm optimistic by the reported attitudes towards same sex marriage and such among younger Muslims these days.   Homophobia is a lot like Islamophobia in that it's harder to maintain those beliefs when you know a real gay person or Muslim person (or both) IRL.  Muslim kids these days are likely to have at least one gay friend...or at least know a few gay kids at school.  That helps regardless of what their parents may believe.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

Yes, but many gay and lesbian people (in the US as well as AU) do NOT use the term.  And if you are asked by a loved one, then you do what the loved one requests, and avoid smooshing some very disparate experiences into one label. 

I am unaware of intersex poets who write about their experience of being 'outisde the binary' (not entirely accurate, as DSD's generally affect either males or females ) but I'd be interested in names if you have time later to share. 

We may just have to agree that there seems to be no universally accepted way. I have loved ones who label themselves as nonbinary queer and would consider the term intersex offensive (they do not have DSDs ). I am honoring their requests and don't mean to offend your loved ones 🙂

Edited January 26, 2020 by regentrude

[TravelingChris]

NM

Edited January 28, 2020 by TravelingChris

[regentrude]

24 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes,. bool references would be nice

pm

[Frances]

On 1/25/2020 at 12:57 PM, klmama said:

Besides reassuring this child that he is very young and that his feelings may change, I would also want him to know that being attracted doesn't mean he has to act on that attraction.  People with same-sex attraction can choose celibacy and can build happy lives for themselves without romantic involvement.  That message doesn't get shared much in our secular society, but it is a welcome relief to those who don't wish to go against their religious beliefs.

It is hard for me to imagine that a gay child or teen would find it a “welcome relief” to be explicitly told what celibacy means and that they can follow their religious beliefs as long as they never date, have a boyfriend, experience a first kiss, make out, have a life partner, get married, etc. Unless some faiths allow everything except marriage and consummation of that marriage? I would think it would be devastating and frightening to contemplate that future at such a young age, especially when they are likely already experiencing all of the psychological turmoil of being raised in a religion where homosexuality is strongly condemned and they now realize that applies directly to their life.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Frances

[klmama]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

It is hard for me to imagine that a gay child or teen would find it a “welcome relief” to be explicitly told what celibacy means and that they can follow their religious beliefs as long as they never date, have a boyfriend, experience a first kiss, make out, have a life partner, get married, etc. Unless some faiths allow everything except marriage and consummation of that marriage? I would think it would be devastating and frightening to contemplate that future at such a young age, especially when they are likely already experiencing all of the psychological turmoil of being raised in a religion where homosexuality is strongly condemned and they now realize that applies directly to their life.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this topic.  I keep getting interrupted, and I've been struggling to explain this in a way that will make more sense to you.  If this doesn't make sense or offends you, please know that's not my intent.     

I've heard of a number of people choosing the abstinence path, and have known three personally: two young adults from my church and a middle-aged adult I know through a Christian activity. From what I understand from the younger ones, the devastation came when they lost focus on their eternal identity as children of God and accepted the secular focus on their sexuality as their identity, rather than seeing sexuality as just one aspect of their lives.  Realizing that God still loved them freed them to choose to obey Him.  All chose celibacy and are now either working in Christian ministry or pursuing training to work in ministry. I've known them for years, and the single word I would use to describe all three is "joyful."  They are choosing to live their lives doing what they believe God wants them to do, even though it sometimes requires sacrifices.  

[Frances]

4 hours ago, klmama said:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this topic.  I keep getting interrupted, and I've been struggling to explain this in a way that will make more sense to you.  If this doesn't make sense or offends you, please know that's not my intent.     

I've heard of a number of people choosing the abstinence path, and have known three personally: two young adults from my church and a middle-aged adult I know through a Christian activity. From what I understand from the younger ones, the devastation came when they lost focus on their eternal identity as children of God and accepted the secular focus on their sexuality as their identity, rather than seeing sexuality as just one aspect of their lives.  Realizing that God still loved them freed them to choose to obey Him.  All chose celibacy and are now either working in Christian ministry or pursuing training to work in ministry. I've known them for years, and the single word I would use to describe all three is "joyful."  They are choosing to live their lives doing what they believe God wants them to do, even though it sometimes requires sacrifices.  

I can imagine that being called to work in ministry could fit better with a life of celibacy, as it’s even required or preferred by some denominations. I still think explaining to a ten year old what staying celibate in order to follow their religious beliefs actually entails could be pretty devastating due simply to the knowledge that they can never have a spouse or life partner. Now maybe if the child is already feeling called to the ministry, it might not be as upsetting.

I think most gay people consider sexuality as just one part of themselves and their identity, just like most heterosexuals. In general, I don’t think there is a secular focus on sexuality as identity, especially for people who aren’t put in the position of choosing between different parts of their identity. I can imagine it might seem that way to individuals in a religion where homosexuality and SSM are viewed as sinful because they would believe that a definitive choice needs to be made. And of course when people are fighting for rights they don’t currently have due to that part of their identity, it is going be in the forefront at times. Since heterosexuals generally aren’t facing discrimination based on their sexual orientation, they have the luxury of never dealing with such a situation.

 

[Joker]

10 minutes ago, Frances said:

I can imagine that being called to work in ministry could fit better with a life of celibacy, as it’s even required or preferred by some denominations. I still think explaining to a ten year old what staying celibate in order to follow their religious beliefs actually entails could be pretty devastating due simply to the knowledge that they can never have a spouse or life partner. Now maybe if the child is already feeling called to the ministry, it might not be as upsetting.

I think most gay people consider sexuality as just one part of themselves and their identity, just like most heterosexuals. In general, I don’t think there is a secular focus on sexuality as identity, especially for people who aren’t put in the position of choosing between different parts of their identity. I can imagine it might seem that way to individuals in a religion where homosexuality and SSM are viewed as sinful because they would believe that a definitive choice needs to be made. And of course when people are fighting for rights they don’t currently have due to that part of their identity, it is going be in the forefront at times. Since heterosexuals generally aren’t facing discrimination based on their sexual orientation, they have the luxury of never dealing with such a situation.

 

Thanks for the bold.  I kept trying to comment and it never came out right.

I remember the first time my own brother spoke to me after I told him my ds was transgender. He had ignored me for six months and then called because he was coming to visit family. He wanted to make sure I knew that while he was here there was to be no talking about ds being transgender. It led to quite the conversation but he didn't believe we don't talk about it all the time or that it isn't a huge part of our daily conversations.

Both of my dc are part of the LGBTQ community and it is definitely just one aspect of their lives but isn't some all consuming thing they, and those around them, think about or talk about all the time. One of mine has never even dated and the other had just one short relationship. That isn't where their focus is but they still get condemned just for admitting they are who they are. They're both just normal young adults trying to get through college so their sexuality is definitely not some big focus point for them. 

[klmama]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

I can imagine that being called to work in ministry could fit better with a life of celibacy, as it’s even required or preferred by some denominations. I still think explaining to a ten year old what staying celibate in order to follow their religious beliefs actually entails could be pretty devastating due simply to the knowledge that they can never have a spouse or life partner. Now maybe if the child is already feeling called to the ministry, it might not be as upsetting.

I think most gay people consider sexuality as just one part of themselves and their identity, just like most heterosexuals. In general, I don’t think there is a secular focus on sexuality as identity, especially for people who aren’t put in the position of choosing between different parts of their identity. I can imagine it might seem that way to individuals in a religion where homosexuality and SSM are viewed as sinful because they would believe that a definitive choice needs to be made. And of course when people are fighting for rights they don’t currently have due to that part of their identity, it is going be in the forefront at times. Since heterosexuals generally aren’t facing discrimination based on their sexual orientation, they have the luxury of never dealing with such a situation.

 

It's late, and I'm tired, so please excuse any incoherence in my answer.  I'm not going to have time to be on here tomorrow, and I wanted to respond.

We don't know how the child described by the OP feels about his same-sex attraction.  Is he scared?  Upset?  Happy?  Unless I've forgotten some important details, all we know is that he told his mom about it.  We're all projecting our own beliefs based on our own experiences and those of people we know, and any one of us or all of us may be wrong about what would help in this particular case.  That's the beauty of this board - having lots of people sharing ideas, so there are more to choose from.  Hopefully, the OP was able to glean something that will actually help her friends.

Regarding secular focus on sexuality as identity....  As an example, the public (secular) schools here and particularly the student affinity groups within the schools push the idea, whether or not they intend to.  They are trying to eliminate discrimination and bullying, but in the process students do absorb that their sexuality IS their identity.  Sometimes it's more blatant, but often it's small things like the previous poster describing that her kids were condemned for admitting "they are who they are."  Not for admitting "they like who they like."  That's how the idea of sexuality as identity is planted, even when people may not be trying to convey that idea.

Sorry, my brain is too tired.  I had more to add, but this took way too long already, and I need to call it a night.  Thanks for the conversation.

[Frances]

17 minutes ago, klmama said:

It's late, and I'm tired, so please excuse any incoherence in my answer.  I'm not going to have time to be on here tomorrow, and I wanted to respond.

We don't know how the child described by the OP feels about his same-sex attraction.  Is he scared?  Upset?  Happy?  Unless I've forgotten some important details, all we know is that he told his mom about it.  We're all projecting our own beliefs based on our own experiences and those of people we know, and any one of us or all of us may be wrong about what would help in this particular case.  That's the beauty of this board - having lots of people sharing ideas, so there are more to choose from.  Hopefully, the OP was able to glean something that will actually help her friends.

Regarding secular focus on sexuality as identity....  As an example, the public (secular) schools here and particularly the student affinity groups within the schools push the idea, whether or not they intend to.  They are trying to eliminate discrimination and bullying, but in the process students do absorb that their sexuality IS their identity.  Sometimes it's more blatant, but often it's small things like the previous poster describing that her kids were condemned for admitting "they are who they are."  Not for admitting "they like who they like."  That's how the idea of sexuality as identity is planted, even when people may not be trying to convey that idea.

Sorry, my brain is too tired.  I had more to add, but this took way too long already, and I need to call it a night.  Thanks for the conversation.

I absolutely agree we are all likely projecting our own beliefs and experiences on the situation. Having been a devout Catholic for the first half of my life, surrounded by close evangelical friends in college and young adulthood, then a Methodist and now agnostic, I’ve definitely experienced a range of beliefs, both directly and indirectly. I also really like hearing and learning from all of the different perspectives on this board and really appreciate your thoughtful posts on this topic.

And I don’t disagree that in some secular situations, especially more recently, people or institutions can encourage the idea that sexuality is identity, whether purposefully or not. As I mentioned in my earlier post and you mention above, dealing with discrimination is one such time when it can come to the forefront, even for people for whom it’s not normally the case. But I also think it can it arise in situations where someone is not free, due to their religion, family of origin, and/or culture to simply follow who they are, just as heterosexuals do. It can create such psychological distress and turmoil and even danger that it takes on a much larger role in their identity. I’ve certainly read about many such cases, some unfortunately ending in suicide. I’m extremely thankful that my son grew up in a time, place, family, and religion where it really could be just one part of his identity, just like it is for most heterosexuals. And in my personal experience, he is not unique. 

I hope you have a good night’s sleep. I actually just woke up from an ill-timed nap, as I was trying to sleep off a bad headache brought on by a stressful day at work. Hopefully I will still be able to sleep well tonight. I’ve enjoyed the conversation and appreciate your posts.

[regentrude]

On 1/28/2020 at 12:59 AM, klmama said:

Regarding secular focus on sexuality as identity....   but in the process students do absorb that their sexuality IS their identity. 

I think it's more complicated. Societal norms are incredibly pervasive, and once we pause to examine how much of our life is ruled by heteronormative gender based expectations, it becomes exhausting. It's not just the overt teachings of your home or church, but the representation in media, in the books and films the child is exposed to since infancy. The princess ends up with the prince. That's how it is supposed to be. Ad nauseam.  So if you don't fit that pattern (either because of your sexual orientation, or because you do not identify with your birth assigned gender), wouldn't that have to become important for your identity?

I am a woman married to a man and have been with my husband for 32 years - that constitutes a big part of my identity, and the identity society ascribes to me. Only I have the luxury of not having to think about it, since it's the default (just like, being white in a county where 93% of the population are Caucasian, I have the luxury of not having to think about that either).  I obviously also derive identity from other things, but it would be disingenuous to claim that this isn't an important part. 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by regentrude

[Joker]

Also, often times it is other people making that identity a big deal and not the person themselves.

Youngest didn't have any big coming out moment. We knew since she was about 14 that she liked girls and it was no big deal. It was certain family who would constantly ask about boys when they would see her. Finally, she told them she liked girls to get them to stop asking why she wasn't dating any cute boys. She's 18 and has never even dated but certain people still think it's a big fat deal (sin) that if/when she does date it will be girls. That's on them, not on her. 

Oldest didn't make a big deal either. Family was simply told he was transgender and had a new name. Then, he went on with his life. They, again, are the ones that made it such a huge issue. 

[SKL]

IIRC this is a 10yo we're talking about.  At that age, most kids don't even want to think about having sex - it's still gross and scary.  So giving a kid the idea that s/he could actually live a whole life without having sex might indeed be a good thought for him/her.  I recall wishing my religion had nuns like the Catholic religion.  😛

The idea that the deep lifelong implications of this need to be explained to a 10yo who thinks he is gay?  I'm a "no" on that.

A single / celibate life is a legitimate option regardless of one's inborn sexual orientation.

[maize]

Do people think heteronormativity is bad on a societal scale? 

Seems to me that a binary, sexually reproducing species is going to be heteronormative. This isn't just a matter of culture, there's basic biology at the foundation.

So... when there is a norm, any norm, individuals who find themselves outside the norm are going to encounter stress points. There are a variety of ways of dealing with that on an individual and societal scale, but railing against the existence of the norm (not saying that is happening in this thread, but I see it a lot in general discourse) when that norm is based in fundamental reproductive reality seems unproductive.

Unpopular opinion I know, but I'm quite confident that any healthy human society will be heteronormative. 

[BeachGal]

Ten year olds are about in fifth grade, maybe fourth. Many of them are becoming curious about what sex is. I'm in my 50s and well before the internet, by sixth grade, I knew I liked boys. My friend, also in sixth grade, used to go to middle school basketball games and would sneak out and make out with boys. That was in the 1970s in rural Montana. Ten might be a little young yet, but if a child is curious enough to begin asking questions about sexuality, they likely can find all kinds of information on the internet some of which, IMO, is not appropriate for that age. That is why it's so important to let them know they can come to a parent to ask questions. No need to get into the nitty gritty but just let them know they can come to you.

Celibacy only works if the individual truly wants that. It's entirely possible for them to lead a secret life so that they don't get shunned by their family or community. It does happen.