deleted topic

[umsami]

*deleting*

thanks for all of the thoughtful advice ❤️ 

Edited January 26, 2020 by umsami

[Selkie]

Poor kid.😥It's always so heartbreaking when gay kids are born into families with these kinds of religious beliefs.

[ljpisme]

16 minutes ago, umsami said:

My answer was to tell him how brave he was to share that with me and tell him how much I loved him and his courage.

 

I don't have any direct experience with this, but I think your response was perfect.  That poor kid 😞

[shinyhappypeople]

10 yo is really young.  He might not be gay, he might just be figuring things out.  I hate the pressure we put on kids that a "crush" at a young age = you're gay, it's permanent, break out the rainbow confetti.  I mean, sure, maybe he is, but I guess what I would tell the parent is to stay calm.  If it were my son, I'd remind him that daddy and I love him no matter what, and encourage him to be patient and give himself time to grow up before he identifies as anything. 

A friend on mine's 18 yo daughter was describing this phenomenon in high school: freshman year a bunch of girls came out as lesbian, by junior year they were dating boys exclusively and wondering what they were even thinking back in freshman year.  Sexuality is complicated and hormones are crazy things.   

The fact that he's had crushes on girls suggests that if he's gay (big if, dude he's 10!!!) then he's not exclusively same-sex attracted.  So, given his community's standards, if the same-sex attraction continues, I'd talk to him about not acting on it and limiting his romantic partners to girls since he's attracted to them, too.

Edited January 25, 2020 by shinyhappypeople
Correcting his age - he's 10 not 9

[Ottakee]

At that age I would not make a big deal about it.  As mentioned above, things often change greatly as they get older and 9 is very young.

[Pen]

I think you said right thing. I assume it is clear that “likes” means feeling a sexual attraction? Rather than regular friendship?  If not clear that might be worth clarifying.  If his religion teaches that being gay is bad, he might have concerns even about  non attraction “liking” as regular just plain friends with a boy his faith regards as bad. 

 I think for the mom to tell him that hormones and feelings may change a lot as he’s going through puberty and he may or may not feel the same now as he will in a few years — and that however his sexual orientation is and turns out as he matures - she loves him as her son just the same. 

 

There could also also be a crisis of faith over something like that and he may need a safe person to talk with about his faith as well as sexual orientation

[BusyMom5]

Agreeing that I would not worry about him really being gay at this point.  I think there is a ton of pressure on teens to figure all that stuff out way too early.  I would encourage your friend to stay calm and just tell him they love him no matter what.  I'd also tell her to keep explaining that time will tell, and not to identify as anything for several years.  

[BeachGal]

I have a bi but more gay son.

There are gay Muslims who belong to groups like pflag, which is a community of support for parents, family and friends of LGBTQ. Many of the people there are trying to figure out how to navigate different situations or using it as a place to just talk. Your friend could contact a pflag group near her or possibly find an online group. Their BTDT advice and empathy could be very helpful. It was for us.

At this point, I would suggest making sure her son feels loved and safe. She might also begin learning about ways to maintain good health for her son. HPV and meningitis (including Bexsero) vaccinations are important. Mental well- being, too. Find a doctor who is truly supportive of gays. My son’s first doctor was not so we found someone else who is gay himself. He has been stellar.

Edited January 25, 2020 by BeachGal

[umsami]

32 minutes ago, Pen said:

I think you said right thing. I assume it is clear that “likes” means feeling a sexual attraction? Rather than regular friendship?  If not clear that might be worth clarifying.  If his religion teaches that being gay is bad, he might have concerns even about  non attraction “liking” as regular just plain friends with a boy his faith regards as bad. 

 I think for the mom to tell him that hormones and feelings may change a lot as he’s going through puberty and he may or may not feel the same now as he will in a few years — and that however his sexual orientation is and turns out as he matures - she loves him as her son just the same. 

 

There could also also be a crisis of faith over something like that and he may need a safe person to talk with about his faith as well as sexual orientation

Yeah....I guess I wasn't clear. The son said he was gay.  I didn't know if I should at all suggest that liking a boy doesn't necessarily mean romantic or what not...as I'm pretty sure this kid knows what being gay means.  He's not isolated at the Islamic school or anything.  

 

I guess I'll mention PFLAG but also kind of leave it alone?? No idea.  

 

Thanks everybody.

Edited January 25, 2020 by umsami

[maize]

I would honestly try to not make a big deal of it one way or another at this point; a nine or ten year old boy is presumably pre-pubescent; there are a lot of changes coming in the next few years.

[BeachGal]

It’s not easy to go through, even in accepting homes. Just listening to her will help.

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, umsami said:

Yeah....I guess I wasn't clear. The son said he was gay.  I didn't know if I should at all suggest that liking a boy doesn't necessarily mean romantic or what not...as I'm pretty sure this kid knows what being gay means.  He's not isolated at the Islamic school or anything.  

 

I guess I'll mention PFLAG but also kind of leave it alone?? No idea.  

 

Thanks everybody.

 

If he said he’s gay, then I’d assume that’s so, and probably fairly clear and strong orientation for him to say it. 

Then I think just the reassurance that she loves him is the key thing.  

[Frances]

1 hour ago, shinyhappypeople said:

9 yo is really young.  He might not be gay, he might just be figuring things out.  I hate the pressure we put on kids that a "crush" at a young age = you're gay, it's permanent, break out the rainbow confetti.  

Personally, I think it’s silly that our society encourages crushes of any type when kids are still elementary aged. I’ve always been puzzled by parents who think it is so cute for very young kids to “like” each other and even encourage and talk about it to others. It was not at all a thing among my son’s circle of friends (both boys and girls) or at his large homeschool center, until kids reached high school. And these were not conservative, religious people.

During my son’s one semester at a public charter school as an eleven year old, I also thought the teacher’s involvement in discussing this and encouraging it among sixth graders was ridiculous. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

Agreeing that I would not worry about him really being gay at this point.  I think there is a ton of pressure on teens to figure all that stuff out way too early.  I would encourage your friend to stay calm and just tell him they love him no matter what.  I'd also tell her to keep explaining that time will tell, and not to identify as anything for several years.  

I agree. And also to just focus on making lots of good friends, both boys and girls. There’s plenty of time later for all of the other stuff. The most important thing is for him to know they love him and will always be there to support and accept him, unless that isn’t actually true.

[Slache]

I would tell him to keep quiet until he was older, more experienced, and more equipped to deal with the problems this will bring.

[Sneezyone]

The boy didn't say he liked someone. He said he was gay. As someone in a conservative family, he surely knows the social approbation that comes with that identification. My DD runs in social circles with many non-binary people and her bestie, in particular, knew he was gay at that age but didn’t tell even DD until later. DH and I observed from afar and even we knew. His parents were in denial. He didn’t come out to his conservative family until last year (8th grade) when he started dating the son of our ex-CO. I wouldn’t make a big deal out of it but I wouldn’t discount it or poo poo it either. If he changes his mind later, no harm no foul. Maybe provide some links to resources for conservative families and be there to talk to your friend. That’s about all you can do from afar.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Sneezyone

[PrincessMommy]

 I would encourage this child not to set anything in stone.  He may very well be incredibly stressed and I would hate for him to start a narrative in his own head that may change.   I remember having female crushes at that age (on older kids or teachers).  I don't think it's necessarily uncommon to same-sex crushes  - or really like/admire someone when you're young.  Especially at an age when the opposite sex is "yucky" or has "cooties", if you KWIM.  It's not the same as romantic/sexual attraction, but at that age it's hard for them to understand.   When I was a 9yr old being gay wasn't even on my radar, so I never thought anything about it.  

I agree with Slache, given his family history, I would encourage him to keep quiet until he's older.  

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

 I would encourage this child not to set anything in stone.  He may very well be incredibly stressed and I would hate for him to start a narrative in his own head that may change.   I remember having female crushes at that age (on older kids or teachers).  I don't think it's necessarily uncommon to same-sex crushes  - or really like/admire someone when you're young.  Especially at an age when the opposite sex is "yucky" or has "cooties", if you KWIM.  It's not the same as romantic/sexual attraction, but at that age it's hard for them to understand.   When I was a 9yr old being gay wasn't even on my radar, so I never thought anything about it.  

I agree with Slache, given his family history, I would encourage him to keep quiet until he's older.  

I agree. I would advise any child of that age that this is not something they have to define yet. There’s plenty of time to let that unfold. 

[gardenmom5]

10 yo.... my then 11 year old niece came out as lesbian in my sister's very liberal family.  (hadn't even gone through puberty yet.)  she was supported, etc.  I rolled my eyes, and said "she's 11, boys are *supposed* to be icky."  she went to the most homosexual friendly college in the country.   she ended up marrying a man.  btw: she was pretty mad at her (politically correct) mother for just how "supportive/encouraging" she was about living a homosexual lifestyle - she ended up not speaking to her for awhile as an adult as well.

[Janeway]

One..I have known a number of kids to come out around the 10 yr old range and in the end, they were not gay. The kids I have known to actually be gay did not come out until later, but I am sure some of the 10 yr olds coming out might actually be gay, I just have not know any.

 

I think parents should be prepared to love their children and not forsake them, regardless. We have been commanded to be good parents and care for our children, not dump them. I do not know much about Islam, but I do know I recently met someone who wishes her daughter were dead because her daughter is gay. She has banned her daughter from her life. She keeps claiming it is because she is a Christian, but there is nothing Christian about judging someone so harshly that you would forsake your own duties as a parent or as a child of God. I do not recall anything at all in the bible that calls on us, humans, to judge and toss out other people, let alone our own children. 

[catz]

As with anything a child announces at that age, be supportive.  But don't be more invested in naming it or holding on to it or walking down a particular path than the child.  Follow the child's lead and be communicating with them regularly.

 I think this can be a fine line for some kids where their parent becomes very invested in a particular path for their child and the child feels pigeon holed into it.  I'm not just thinking of naming someone's sexuality, but of really anything.  Kids really do want parental approval.  If you  say out loud over and over "Suzie is my ballerina we're so proud" over and over that can sound different to a kid than "We're proud of Suzie.  She is interested in ballet and science.  This summer she might try tap."  This was a thing my parents did and I can see how it affected my brother and I each in different ways for many years.  And they definitely didn't mean anything malicious of course.  I just think young people should be given opportunity to change path early and often.  

We are in a liberal community and it isn't unusual for tweens and teens to try out some different labels.  I suspect a number of kids will turn out straight.  And some won't, which is just fine and dandy.  I will also say, there are kids who I know who've come out and I felt like they would well before they did.  Like a young man we know just came out like at 16.  That said, he may have been out to his immediate family much sooner, who knows.  We've known him since preschool - not surprised.   I would just hope these young people are feeling loved and supported regardless.   Those can be turbulent years for kids and they're just trying to figure out who they are.  

Edited January 25, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[BeachGal]

We did not find out until our son was in 9th grade but he told us he had felt attracted to guys much earlier. I agree with not setting it in stone but I’d also say they might not change and a parent needs to realize that.

We were surprised when we found out. My husband especially. There was no coming out party but an awful lot of angst as to what to do. A lot of shame for presumably f****** up as parents. A lot of research to try to figure out what happened, what caused this. Questioning if I was exposed to something while pregnant. Maybe endocrine disrupters. Calls and meetings with all kinds of experts — gay affirmative therapists (no help), Joseph Nicolosi (no help) and everything in between (no help). Was I too involved in his life? No. Was my husband not involved enough? No. A lot of parents we met felt the same way and had similar experiences.

Our son did date a friend in high school to see if his feelings would change but his feelings didn’t change. He was very attracted to her, though, and considers himself bisexual but more gay. We suspect that sexuality runs along a continuum.

I don’t know why people are gay. I suspect it’s mostly something biological.

[chiguirre]

Honestly, I'd tell my kid to not say a word to anyone, including my dh. I'd tell him that once he graduated from high school, I would help him escape to a safe place and make his own life, but that until then, he has to maintain the secret for his physical safety. It sucks that this would be my reaction, but I think it is the safest route for your friend and her son.

Edited January 25, 2020 by chiguirre

[Frances]

33 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

We did not find out until our son was in 9th grade but he told us he had felt attracted to guys much earlier. I agree with not setting it in stone but I’d also say they might not change and a parent needs to realize that.

We were surprised when we found out. My husband especially. There was no coming out party but an awful lot of angst as to what to do. A lot of shame for presumably f****** up as parents. A lot of research to try to figure out what happened, what caused this. Questioning if I was exposed to something while pregnant. Maybe endocrine disrupters. Calls and meetings with all kinds of experts — gay affirmative therapists (no help), Joseph Nicolosi (no help) and everything in between (no help). Was I too involved in his life? No. Was my husband not involved enough? No. A lot of parents we met felt the same way and had similar experiences.

Our son did date a friend in high school to see if his feelings would change but his feelings didn’t change. He was very attracted to her, though, and considers himself bisexual but more gay. We suspect that sexuality runs along a continuum.

I don’t know why people are gay. I suspect it’s mostly something biological.

Was the angst because you thought/think there was/is something wrong with being gay? My son didn’t tell us until his last year of high school (no coming out party or anything that dramatic), although we suspected earlier because he wasn’t interested in any of the many of girls chasing him, despite having several close female friends. But there was absolutely no angst or thoughts that we had done anything wrong or needed support or help. It’s just one part of him that we accept and love like all of the other parts. It also hasn’t been an issue at all for him from what he’s shared with us and he’s now a young adult, but then again we are fortunate to live in a fairly progressive state and he wasn’t raised in a conservative, patriarchal religion. So I can see how it might not be that way with a different family, belief system, location, or religious background.

[Islandgal]

3 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Honestly, I'd tell my kid to not say a word to anyone, including my dh. I'd tell him that once he graduated from high school, I would help him escape to a safe place and make his own life, but that until then, he has to maintain the secret for his physical safety. It sucks that this would be my reaction, but I think it is the safest route for your friend and her son.

I agree with this, as harsh as it sounds. If the child slips and tells people he is gay now, not only is it a safety concern, if it turns out he isn't, he will be labeled as gay in the community for life.

The question is, does the mother want to deal with the consequences of her husband finding out that she was hiding this information from him? 

Is the boy he is crushing on Muslim as well?

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Islandgal

[klmama]

Besides reassuring this child that he is very young and that his feelings may change, I would also want him to know that being attracted doesn't mean he has to act on that attraction.  People with same-sex attraction can choose celibacy and can build happy lives for themselves without romantic involvement.  That message doesn't get shared much in our secular society, but it is a welcome relief to those who don't wish to go against their religious beliefs.

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, klmama said:

Besides reassuring this child that he is very young and that his feelings may change, I would also want him to know that being attracted doesn't mean he has to act on that attraction.  People with same-sex attraction can choose celibacy and can build happy lives for themselves without romantic involvement.  That message doesn't get shared much in our secular society, but it is a welcome relief to those who don't wish to go against their religious beliefs.

I've known several homosexual Christians who've chosen a heterosexual lifestyle as well.

[klmama]

Just now, Slache said:

I've known several homosexual Christians who've chosen a heterosexual lifestyle as well.

Do you mean they've chosen to marry or date people of the opposite sex?

[Slache]

1 minute ago, klmama said:

Do you mean they've chosen to marry or date people of the opposite sex?

Yes, as opposed to a life of celibacy.

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, klmama said:

Besides reassuring this child that he is very young and that his feelings may change, I would also want him to know that being attracted doesn't mean he has to act on that attraction.  People with same-sex attraction can choose celibacy and can build happy lives for themselves without romantic involvement.  That message doesn't get shared much in our secular society, but it is a welcome relief to those who don't wish to go against their religious beliefs.

I’m guessing it’s shared very much in the conservative religious circles where it is encouraged and expected. I highly doubt any gay in that environment is unaware of the expectations of their religion.

[Frances]

13 minutes ago, Slache said:

I've known several homosexual Christians who've chosen a heterosexual lifestyle as well.

And I’ve known many that ended up divorced because of it.

[hjffkj]

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I personally think it's incredibly unfair on a spouse for a gay or lesbian person to marry them as a 'fix'. If you are gay, you are not sexually attracted to your wife, and that's just...not OK.

Anyway, enough of that, I think we all know that unsami is not going to tell the mom to tell her son to just make himself live a straight life, even if he does end up being gay.

#making a comment

#not going down the rabbit hole of conversion therapy

 

 

This is what my fil did. At the time it was more understandable because of how unaccepted homosexuality was. And after 25 years of marriage he finally found himself in a more accepting time where he could be who he was and ended up divorcing mil. He did love mil very much though, just not sexually.

Society has come a long way since they were younger and taking that route is incredibly unfair and should not be encouraged. Not that fil was encouraged by anyone other than his own observations of the hostility and hatred he'd endure if he lived as he wanted then. 

[hjffkj]

10 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Your poor MIL 😞

x 100 on the bolded.

 My poor mil indeed. It rocked her world 12 years ago when he left. Thankfully, since then she has healed a lot.

[klmama]

20 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m guessing it’s shared very much in the conservative religious circles where it is encouraged and expected. I highly doubt any gay in that environment is unaware of the expectations of their religion.

We're talking about a 10yo child.  In conservative religious circles people do not usually discuss sexuality with 10yo children except to inform them of what is considered right and wrong.  It's not terribly likely anyone has addressed his age group to let them know their options if they happen to feel attracted to someone else of the same sex.  

[SKL]

I would remain open-minded and encourage the child to accept that he still has a lot of maturing to do and there is no need to declare oneself one way or the other.  Identifying as LGBTetc seems to be trendy now among tweens / young teens.  I think it is largely a fad.

I think it would do all kids good to lighten up on the expectation that kids identify / categorize themselves at such an early age. 

I would also stress that a boy or girl can like all kinds of things or people without being LGBT.  Don't let others talk them into categories based on colors / clothes / toys they like, admiration for another person, or really anything at this age.

When the child gets older, if indeed he is gay, he can find some community with other gay Muslim teens.  If his mom was open to telling you, she maybe open to looking into that with him when the time is right.  She can be his emotional support at home and maybe work on his male relatives to at least accept the idea that homosexuality is something that some of God's children are born with.  That said, it will never be an easy life if he is gay, and he may need to eventually move away from the conservative community in order to be himself.

[BeachGal]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

Was the angst because you thought/think there was/is something wrong with being gay? My son didn’t tell us until his last year of high school (no coming out party or anything that dramatic), although we suspected earlier because he wasn’t interested in any of the many of girls chasing him, despite having several close female friends. But there was absolutely no angst or thoughts that we had done anything wrong or needed support or help. It’s just one part of him that we accept and love like all of the other parts. It also hasn’t been an issue at all for him from what he’s shared with us and he’s now a young adult, but then again we are fortunate to live in a fairly progressive state and he wasn’t raised in a conservative, patriarchal religion. So I can see how it might not be that way with a different family, belief system, location, or religious background.

 

Yes and no. Our situation was somewhat similar to umsami’s friend in that my husband had trouble because initially he felt sexual orientation was controllable. I have a cousin who is gay and have worked with quite a few LGBTQ as well. I don’t believe sexual orientation can be willed. My husband never really rejected our son, though, and came to be far more accepting and understanding. He and ds spent years rebuilding their relationship and are very close now. In fact, they’re taking off tomorrow to go skiing. Ds is doing really well.

We are not very religious, either. We’re all agnostic.

I'm just trying to be honest for the friend’s sake to show her what happened in our family. I’m glad it went well for your family, though. It’s more acceptable to be gay now and I think that helps. Much harder in cultures that are not accepting.

ETA: PFLAG online does have something for Muslims. Might be worth checking out.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by BeachGal

[Farrar]

I would also encourage them to not make a big deal out of it and that thinking through and grappling with identity is part of growing up. But there are a lot of people here saying, oh, it doesn't mean anything, kids are still figuring it out, etc. I think that's true... but can come off in a positive, supportive way or a negative, dismissive, you have time to figure out the "correct" way to be way. I have known kids who went through phases thinking maybe they were gay when they were tweens and teens and then decided no, they weren't, as they grew up. I've also known kids who announced their sexuality at a young age and then were, in fact, LGBTQ. 

I think for a kid who announces that, especially in a conservative family, it does mean something. Maybe it means they're gay or queer in some way. But maybe it also means they're testing their parents' acceptance levels, perhaps subconsciously. Or maybe just that they feel they don't fit in. Or... conversely, that they feel they can trust their parents to explore anything. Regardless, I think the worst outcome would be to put the kid in situations where being LGBTQ - whether they are or aren't - will be unsafe or mocked. Because when you say, "I'm gay," to your parents and then your parents put you into a religious club where things like conversion therapy are being supported or have you do a volunteer activity with a group that excludes LGBTQ people or something like that, then I think that makes a statement to a kid. Kids see and understand more of that sort of thing that we always know too. And I think sometimes parents who don't know LGBTQ folks and are part of religious organizations that don't recognize full rights for LGBTQ folks also don't always know or understand where those minefields are.

One of the best pieces on this subject I ever read was an article by evangelical parents whose kid came out as a teen - it was ages ago, but I can't seem to find it. Anyway, they were very supportive... to a point. They were like, we'll get through this, we still love you... all the things that seem okay. But they also saw it as a difficult cross to bear. They encouraged him to stay in a religious community where LGBTQ people were not welcome. They were deeply fearful of him ever actually dating anyone. He became depressed. He started doing drugs. Eventually, after a ton of interventions, he overdosed and died as a young adult. The mom was like, we were so mistaken in how we handled this. Obviously, this kid is so young... I don't mean to be dire. I really do think... who knows what will happen. But also, I feel like it's important to say, you can't expect someone to understand that you love them and at the same time treat a core aspect of their identity as wrong. Most people won't experience that as real love. So I guess that's the question that I would say they should think about... will our kid know he's loved if he does turn out to be gay? 

[Farrar]

23 minutes ago, klmama said:

We're talking about a 10yo child.  In conservative religious circles people do not usually discuss sexuality with 10yo children except to inform them of what is considered right and wrong.  It's not terribly likely anyone has addressed his age group to let them know their options if they happen to feel attracted to someone else of the same sex.  

By age 10, a kid who is not in a sheltered community has definitely heard what gay is, is aware that sometimes slurs for being gay are bandied around, and is aware that some groups of people are intolerant of LGBTQ folks. And I'd be shocked if a 10 yo being raised strongly in a religion and going to a secular school with a diverse set of other kids did not know the gist of where his own religion stands on being gay.

As for living a life of abstinence because you're gay... oy. That's not acceptance. Some people choose abstinence for a host of reasons. But because you're LGBTQ is not a healthy reason to choose to have no romantic or sexual attachments in life. And study after study has shown the negative psychological effects of this.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Farrar

[maize]

11 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 My poor mil indeed. It rocked her world 12 years ago when he left. Thankfully, since then she has healed a lot.

I frankly have very little sympathy for middle aged men who leave a wife they claim to love because they have decided their personal sexual fulfillment is more important than a marriage that has lasted decades.

Sure it would be hard to be in a mixed orientation marriage. Lots of kinds of marriage are hard. Life, quite frankly, is hard. Devotion to your spouse, the mother of your children, is worth a lot. 

(I am not saying I would encourage someone to enter into a mixed orientation marriage; I'm talking here about the all-too-common story of one spouse--more often the husband--leaving a marriage that has lasted decades to seek greater sexual fulfillment.)

Guess I'm just not a believer in sexual identity and sexual fulfillment being the big determiner in decisions that are going to hurt other people. Love, to me, is primarily about attitude and action. "I love you but I'm going to divorce you so I can go be me" sounds way to selfish and self-centered.

 

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

I frankly have very little sympathy for middle aged men who leave a wife they claim to love because they have decided their personal sexual fulfillment is more important than a marriage that has lasted decades.

Sure it would be hard to be in a mixed orientation marriage. Lots of kinds of marriage are hard. Life, quite frankly, is hard. Devotion to your spouse, the mother of your children, is worth a lot. 

(I am not saying I would encourage someone to enter into a mixed orientation marriage; I'm talking here about the all-too-common story of one spouse--more often the husband--leaving a marriage that has lasted decades to seek greater sexual fulfillment.)

Guess I'm just not a believer in sexual identity and sexual fulfillment being the big determiner in decisions that are going to hurt other people. Love, to me, is primarily about attitude and action. "I love you but I'm going to divorce you so I can go be me" sounds way to selfish and self-centered.

I have mixed feelings about this. I've seen it happen a couple of times and one time it was clearly done very callously. The other time it was just sad, but in the end everyone was able to emerge friendly and... as financially okay as they were going to be. As times move on, it's easier to have less sympathy. I mean, I'm in my 40's. I was out as bi and dated women in high school and college. I knew other people who were out in high school. It gets harder to have the defense that society forced you into this, though also, there are communities where that's still happening today - as witnessed by people casually commenting above that some lesbian and gay people choose to get straight married, as if that's an awesome life choice.

I would challenge that it's over "personal sexual fulfillment." It's really not. It's over identity. It eats away at many people to live that heteronormative life and not ever be themselves. Even if late in life, they could come to some sort of two bedroom understanding, that doesn't satisfy the need to be yourself. And besides, the two bedroom understanding can include looking the other way to actually brewing tea with same sex partners. It doesn't heal the psychological wounds of wearing that false identity for so long.

[hjffkj]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

I frankly have very little sympathy for middle aged men who leave a wife they claim to love because they have decided their personal sexual fulfillment is more important than a marriage that has lasted decades.

Sure it would be hard to be in a mixed orientation marriage. Lots of kinds of marriage are hard. Life, quite frankly, is hard. Devotion to your spouse, the mother of your children, is worth a lot. 

(I am not saying I would encourage someone to enter into a mixed orientation marriage; I'm talking here about the all-too-common story of one spouse--more often the husband--leaving a marriage that has lasted decades to seek greater sexual fulfillment.)

Guess I'm just not a believer in sexual identity and sexual fulfillment being the big determiner in decisions that are going to hurt other people. Love, to me, is primarily about attitude and action. "I love you but I'm going to divorce you so I can go be me" sounds way to selfish and self-centered.

 

It is not as simple as he left her to fulfill his own sexual desires. There were many aspects of his life that were unfulfilled because he was in a heterosexual marriage that he entered because he was too fearful of society to live how he really wanted. He had to hide some of the things he loved the most out of fear of being outted and how that would effect his relationship with his family, his career, etc.

And he was right to be fearful as him coming out did change his relationship with some of his conservative christian relatives. But he waited until he felt that he was safe enough because society has come a long way. 

He can still love my mil while making the decision to finally love himself more. He stayed with her until their children were adults, is continuing to support her financially through alimony, and will financially support her through retirement.  He didn't just up and leave as if she were nothing to him. Selfish was putting her in that position in the first place. And staying would have been just as selfish because ultimately mil deserves a man who wants her and doesn't just feel obligated to her because of a selfish decision he made out of fear two decades earlier.

[hjffkj]

I'm done talking about fil. OP I'm sorry I took part in derailing your thread.

My advice for you is to encourage your friend to talk to her son about how at his age feelings can change wildly and that who he likes now might not be who he likes 5 years from now. And that his safest option is to talk to her about it privately while he figures that all out.

[Frances]

47 minutes ago, klmama said:

We're talking about a 10yo child.  In conservative religious circles people do not usually discuss sexuality with 10yo children except to inform them of what is considered right and wrong.  It's not terribly likely anyone has addressed his age group to let them know their options if they happen to feel attracted to someone else of the same sex.  

I think I must be missing something here. Doesn’t it follow from being taught that’s it wrong that you don’t do it? The only option is to not act on the attraction. Or I guess according to at least one poster, marry someone you are not attracted to. 

When I was raised Catholic and we were taught that sex before marriage was wrong, I took that to mean I shouldn’t do it, even if I was attracted to someone and felt like doing it. I’m not sure what else I could possibly have concluded from that teaching.

[klmama]

26 minutes ago, Farrar said:

By age 10, a kid who is not in a sheltered community has definitely heard what gay is, is aware that sometimes slurs for being gay are bandied around, and is aware that some groups of people are intolerant of LGBTQ folks. And I'd be shocked if a 10 yo being raised strongly in a religion and going to a secular school with a diverse set of other kids did not know the gist of where his own religion stands on being gay.

As for living a life of abstinence because you're gay... oy. That's not acceptance. Some people choose abstinence for a host of reasons. But because of your sexuality is not a healthy reason to choose to have no romantic or sexual attachments in life. And study after study has shown the negative psychological effects of this.

????  This child announced he was gay.  Of course he knows what that means.  He's also Muslim, which is the key issue here.  Acting on same-sex attraction is considered wrong in his faith tradition; if that attraction continues, somehow the conflict will need to be addressed.  Abstinence offers a solution that doesn't require him to reject his faith. 

[Farrar]

10 minutes ago, klmama said:

????  This child announced he was gay.  Of course he knows what that means.  He's also Muslim, which is the key issue here.  Acting on same-sex attraction is considered wrong in his faith tradition; if that attraction continues, somehow the conflict will need to be addressed.  Abstinence offers a solution that doesn't require him to reject his faith. 

Abstinence is not a solution that allows for psychological health. The way that some religious groups like to tell themselves that they’re okay with gay people just not “acting on it” is a distinction entirely lost on actual LGBTQ people. And one that - as I said in my earlier post - does not allow children to feel loved or accepted, which leaves them with further psychological scars.

Maybe this kid will change his mind. Young identities are in flux. But is that a gamble worth taking? For some families, the answer is yes, they would rather hope he’s not gay and continue with a faith that’s makes LGBTQ folks feel excluded. But the gamble is this kid’s psychological health and long term relationship with the family.

[maize]

7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Abstinence is not a solution that allows for psychological health. 

Celibate humans cannot be psychologically healthy?

[Selkie]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

Celibate humans cannot be psychologically healthy?

Not when they have to choose between celibacy or being rejected by their family.

[Joker]

1 minute ago, Selkie said:

Not when they have to choose between celibacy or being rejected by their family.

Yeah, I understood her comment to be about this situation and in regards to other LGBTQ kids. I can't imagine it being healthy to tell a ten year old, "It's fine if your gay because you can just be celibate your whole life". I would think that could be quite damaging.

[maize]

3 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Not when they have to choose between celibacy or being rejected by their family.

How about young people who chose to follow their own sincere religious beliefs?

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

How about young people who chose to follow their own sincere religious beliefs?

I should have said abstinence that is forced or part of an impossible choice, as Selkie said. Choosing abstinence for all kinds of reasons can absolutely be fine and healthy.

I do not think it's possible for an LGBTQ person who is being told that it's abstinence or your faith and family to be able to make that choice in a healthy, free and clear way.