I’m just really grieving and I can’t explain it to anyone

[Terabith]

Anna’s doing better on 100 mg of Zoloft and 5 mg of buspar twice a day.  But...she’s still not doing well.  She’s still really anxious, really depressed, really dysphoric about her boobs and hips.  She’s not really functional and we’ve pretty much given up trying to get her to do any school work. 

And we got her PSAT scores.  She was 95th percentile for verbal and 77th for math.  And I know that’s good.  She’s a tenth grader; they don’t count.  She did absolutely no preparation and was freaking out.  It was actually her last day at school.  But I’m sad because I know she could have done so much better with just a little effort.  And she’s not willing or able to put forth even a little effort.  

And sheesh... I know I sound like a massive jerk because her scores are good.  But they’ve been a lot higher in the past. 

She passed the placement tests for community college and is signed up for college writing and psychology.  Geology was full, unfortunately.  She’s working sporadically with a Spanish tutor.  I wish she’d watch some Great Courses with me so I could give her a semester credit for geography.  I wish she would do math and some test prep.  I wish she’d join a choir or draw more like she talked about.  She had lots of ideas, but she found implementing most of them to be overwhelming.  She’s not even really reading much; I gave her some classics I thought she’d enjoy, but she hasn’t.  She’s watching YouTube and playing some video games.  And she is doing better.  But I wish she was doing more better than she is.  

[PeterPan]

First, I'm sorry. Wish it wasn't so hard.

Next, the anxiety. The only person you can change is yourself. She's going to have her own journey in learning to use her tools and self-advocate, and maybe academics aren't the most important thing right now. Maybe working through her anxiety and learning how to feel good is more important. Does she have anything she LIKES to do? Can you do that and give her credit?

If she were in school, so would shuffle through and get credit anyway. Give her credit anyway. Turn the thing on, she's in the room doing what she really wants. Figure it out. Horse ride and call it something. Go cruise and call it geography. Give her credit anyway. Do not let your fear of what this should look like or your insecurity about it cause you to do something drastic that wouldn't happen in school. School has warm body benefits, ie. you're there and a grade gets assigned. So think lick and promise. Do not stop the world over this or delay her graduation or cause her not to get credits. Figure it out and be beyond flexible. She will have good scores anyway and it absolutely positively WILL NOT MATTER. 

Now you. The only person you can really help is yourself. How is *your* anxiety? What can you do to help yourself? I know you're stressed and recurrently sick, but what would it REALLY TAKE to get your own emotions and anxiety and whatnot in check? At some point, you two are becoming separate people. It is not YOUR failure if she has continuing problems. It's called HER problem, her life journey. You have to take your separate journey and help YOURSELF. That's the best way to help her, by radically taking care of yourself.

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She had lots of ideas, but she found implementing most of them to be overwhelming.

Yeah, no shock. Kid with EF and mental health issues takes on too much, imagine that. I suggest you LIE. Not really lie, but lie, kwim? Don't tell her everything you think and fear and wear it on your shirt sleeve, kwim? As mom, you have got to FAKE IT TILL YOU MAKE IT. It means you PRETEND you're way more confident than you are. Make up something and say it to her and yourself until you believe it.

That's ok.

That was a learning experience.

We were expecting to have mistakes.

We'll regroup and find a new way.

It will be fine.

Kwim? When you don't FEEL it, those feel like lies. But lie, kwim? Because if you sat down with a psych and had a really professional, birds' eye view, they would help you see what is important, what's not, where this is going, what to worry about, what not to worry about. There's a certain amount of re-adjusting the focus, the emphasis, the freakout point. 

Let's be honest. The WORST thing that could happen is a mental health crisis that leads to something needing hospitalization. Every other option you can work with. And even that, you'd work with, but that would be the worst case. Everything else, like not getting National Merit, oh well, you can work with it. Didn't write as many papers as should have, oh well. Decides not to go to college for a while, oh well. Kwim? You can cover for your feelings and say the truth you know needs to be the truth that is said. Say the TRUTH, that everything is going to be ok, it's going to work out, I'm in your corner, we'll keep problem solving, you're going to have a good life. 

You're gonna have a number more years of this. I suggest you take up some form of faith based truism lying, whatever you want to call it, to get you through. If you fake it enough, you may start to believe it. Say the things you WANT to be true, kwim? 

[PeterPan]

Are you hooked up on interoception intervention? I wonder how much progress you could make on the mental health side if you could bump her interoception and ability to sort through her feelings more accurately, kwim? You could work on that and nothing else, really focus on it, do it a bunch, see how much you could get through in 2-3 weeks before next semester starts. Give her a health credit or something for it. 

[PeterPan]

I'm saying this, because what I'm finding, for myself, is that after working through the body awareness there has been this settling out, this realization of what it takes for me to feel good. I'm sort of a work in progress on that. It's kind of fascinating actually, and it's a radical shift from just living and getting by. 

[Terabith]

Intellectually, I know it will be fine.  Even if she wound up in the hospital, that’s not even a worst case scenario.  Honestly, worst case scenario is probably my father in law’s sister, who pretty much had a breakdown at age 12 and basically never did anything ever again.  She lived at home until her parents died and then was committed to a state psychiatric hospital.  And it was awful, but she died of natural causes.  So... I mean, worst case is something like that.  And we could probably figure out some kind of financial planning/ assisted living/ something.  

I’m not going to delay graduating her.  I haven’t figured out how to give her credit, because if she was drawing or riding horses or something, I could spin that.  Maybe I could give her a computer literacy credit for playing video games?

She won’t do anything for me.  I can’t run interoception with her because she won’t interact with me that way.   I think there’s too much baggage from homeschooling her in elementary.  She will work with my husband.  I can set stuff up for her.  But we can’t work together.  

Part of it is also that she was always my high achiever.  People would look at Cat hissing at people at church, and I could always point to Anna and say, “Look; she’s normal and high achieving.  It’s not my fault!”   It’s a stupid ego blow.  And also she’s having this non binary identity thing but doesn’t want to make it public but wants us to call her by this other name and I want to support her, but losing the name I chose for her.  Just feels like I have lost so much of who she was.  Her confidence, her sparkle, her faith, her enthusiasm.  It’s just...it’s like when the fairies steal your child and leave a changeling.  I can love who she is now, but I miss who she used to be.  

[Terabith]

And the PSAT scores don’t even matter, especially if she’s doing community college classes.  There are transfer programs and stuff.  It really will be fine.  But high scores would get scholarships....

[Terabith]

And no, I am definitely not telling her any of my fears or feelings.  We’re telling her over and over that everything will be fine; things will work out; that there are tons of routes to a good life.  All of that is true.  It’s just hard.  It’s not what the plan was.  And I have full blown ocd.   I live by plans.  

[PeterPan]

Can I ask if you *agree* with the counseling you're getting on the gender thing? If you don't *agree* with what they're telling her or think it's actually making the system worse deep down in your gut, then maybe that's part of the problem? 

I don't know, just throwing that out there.

[PeterPan]

16 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, worst case scenario is probably my father in law’s sister, who pretty much had a breakdown at age 12 and basically never did anything ever again.  She lived at home until her parents died and then was committed to a state psychiatric hospital.

That's pretty dramatic. I can see why you're worried.

17 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She won’t do anything for me.

Not to point out the obvious, but then you end it. So she's going to DE for enough to call it good? She sounds like she's strong enough academically for that to work.

If I could just say politely, there's disagreement on how the mental health community is saying to handle some of these dysphoria issues and there are stats on how things tend to turn out with a variety of approaches. I'm sure you've researched that. It just seems like there's this trend (when I'm reading just the general tenor of things online) to make it sound like there's ONE ACCEPTED APPROACH, and I'm not sure that's the case. And since it doesn't seem like she's very happy or thriving with the counseling she's getting, maybe that's something to look at.

[Terabith]

Yeah, the plan is pretty much just outsource everything to DE and the Spanish tutor.  I was hoping she’d do math with my husband.  But that hasn’t really been happening.  Hopefully she can handle DE.  

Yeah, opinions vary on dealing with dysphoria.  And honestly, hers really seems to be more body dysphoria than gender dysphoria.  What she wants is the body she had before she went through puberty.  And it’s an issue, but she doesn’t seem to think it’s a BIG issue.  I don’t think it’s been really a focus of counseling.  I need to bring it up with the counselor.  I’ve tried to get her to go to the local LGBT youth group and she won’t because she says it’s a boring thing to sit around and talk about.  There doesn’t seem to be a lot of research on how you treat body dysphoria.  Like, we have lots of friends who are trans, but that’s not really her experience.  She didn’t grow up with gender identity issues.  She just hates having boobs.  

 

[maize]

Your grief is real, Terabith. You are grieving for the happy child you had, and for the hopes and dreams that have shattered.

And of course it doesn't mean you love your daughter less now than you did before, but it is natural that you are grieving.

Edited December 11, 2019 by maize

[Terabith]

18 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Mama, very gently, your posts feel very full of pressure on her.  And even if you aren't "telling" her these things, I am willing to bet that it's just exuding from you like mist from a waterfall.  She knows she scored low enough to make you sad,  she's knows you are sad that she's changing herself, she knows that she isn't living up to what you think her potential is or what your plans are.  You might be telling her that there are tons of routes to a good life, but since it doesn't seem that you actually believe it, I would be willing to bet she's hearing that as hollow platitudes.

I know.  I’m trying really hard not to put any pressure on her.  And I DO believe there are lots of routes to a good life.  It’s just that all of a sudden everything we imagined for her, the way we thought things would go, all changed literally overnight from a pretty conventional to a very different path.  I long ago made peace with my younger kid having an unconventional approach to life, and that it likely would be good but different.  But Anna always talked about the college experience and majoring in geology and singing in a choir and different things to do for fun.  It will be fine.  It’s just different.  And she is different.  She’s not the happy, enthusiastic, extremely hard working kid she was.  She’s not bouncy.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

It really will be fine.  But high scores would get scholarships....

She can still submit scores and get scholarships. DE and don't graduate her. In another year or whatever do some more testing (when her anxiety is down) and see what happens. With those PSAT scores, she'll probably have great scores on either the ACT or SAT and be fine for getting scholarships. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

She just hates having boobs.  

Okay, so are they uncomfortable in some way? Overly large, overly small, overly painful, disproportionate to her body? 

I had seriously painful breast tissue during puberty, and it never quite got all the way better until after I had kids (and during pregnancy #1, oh, my word!!! It was so, so bad). Like, hugs would kill me bad. Getting hit in the chest with a basketball or volleyball in gym class, even gently, was insane pain. It would fluctuate with my cycle, but I used to wish I could just take the stupid things off and put them on a shelf for a while. We're talking a decade plus of at least moderate discomfort. I still can't quite believe that pregnancy basically "cured" that, but it did. It's very rare for me to have lasting or significant pain related to my hormones--it's like a small blip on the radar comparatively.

Currently breast pain almost always means a nerve in my ribs is upset, or I have a really sore muscle, or both. Chiropractic helps. Size hasn't mattered for that--I used to have tiny bOOks, and now I have huge bOOks, and the nerve/muscle pain has been consistent the whole time. This used to be mixed in with the hormonal fluctuations, and I know the difference now only because the hormonal pain got better, and then years later, the nerve/muscle pain got better. I know some people have back problems due to large bOOks, but that has not been me. I have lots of neuromuscular pain that seems to be unrelated (head to toe).

Sorry for the TMI if this is not applicable!

[Terabith]

I don’t think they’re physically painful.  But her sensory is weird and they might be?  She’s said stuff about them being uncomfortable sometimes.  I think it’s more the concept of having boobs.  They’re big...DD and she’s small framed.  But they’re not like mine were.  When I had my reduction surgery, they removed seven pounds from one and four pounds from the other and I am still a DD.  I get hating boobs and feeling self conscious about them.  But I don’t think it’s quite the same thing.  I think she was comfortable in the body she had as a child and not comfortable in the new body.  She’s thinking of it as gender dysphoria because that’s the way it is presented in our culture.  I think she honestly thinks people generally think about their gender constantly.  Her godmother is actually trans and a social worker and doesn’t think it’s gender dysphoria but body dysphoria.  I really wonder if something traumatic happened at school, because it sure presents as ptsd.  But she denies anything happened.  I don’t know any other non-binary people.  All the trans folks I know experience their gender firmly in the binary and transitioning really did solve most of their issues.  I don’t think her situation is really analogous.  We have bought her binders, but that doesn’t really solve it.  And they aren’t comfortable.  And heck.  If having mastectomies would make her feel better about herself, I am pretty sure insurance will cover it and I will support her in that once she’s 18.  I don’t care if she has boobs or not.  I want her to be comfortable in her own skin.  

[kbutton]

30 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She’s thinking of it as gender dysphoria because that’s the way it is presented in our culture.  I think she honestly thinks people generally think about their gender constantly.

That sounds kind of OCD or like she's absorbed some "extra" requirement to be conscious of this in a special way.

We overthink a lot of stuff in our modern world, and it sounds like she's into overthinking lots of things...specifically a person might fixate on this or that now and then, but she's taken the whole list of things some people might fixate upon and decided to fixate on all of it. 

Maybe she's uncomfortable with growing up in general, the pressure of what she's supposed to do for the rest of her life, etc. and her body is betraying her by aging before the rest of her is ready. IDK. Just thinking out loud. It sounds to me like she needs something to blame all of her anxiety on, so maybe this is it. But I really have NO IDEA if that's a realistic idea.

I am confused about the different name thing unless maybe this is the most convenient way for her to think of her problems with her body, and she's trying to "do dysphoria right." I tend to think that if a trans person with a lot of life experience is telling you this isn't it, it isn't, but then the name thing is...what? An attempt to "get it right"?

It seems like her issues start going in circles fast, and I am so sorry for that! It's got to be frustrating.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

They’re big...DD and she’s small framed.

I'm seeing you said binders, which is the other direction. However when she was wearing bras, did you ever have her professionally fitted? Most stores only carry through DD, and that might not even be her correct size. It would be extra uncomfortable to wear the wrong size.

[Terabith]

Yes, we did professional fittings.  I’m pretty hyper aware of those issues.  I’m pretty sure it’s the right size, and she goes back and forth between bras and binders (and nothing at home).  

She definitely thinks of it as gender dysphoria and that she’s non-binary.  She wants to use they/ them pronouns and a new name, but only at home.  She doesn’t want to go public with it.  So we are trying to remember but it’s tricky to go back and forth.  But the way she describes it is, “I think I am non-binary because I don’t really think of myself as having a gender.  I’m just me.  I don’t really feel like a girl or a boy.”  And I think there is definitely a social aspect to it.  It’s a way of explaining why you feel like you don’t fit.  And our trans friends all agree that it doesn’t sound like their experiences, and it may be more body dysphoria than gender.  But they also all agree that we should support how she’s feeling.  That adolescence is a time of thinking about who you are and what gender you are is part of that, and however she winds up identifying as an adult, it’s healthier for us to support that now.  It would be different if we were having to make medical decisions about hormones or something.  I’m not sure I would be comfortable with that at this juncture, given the suddenness and lack of any signs before age 15.  But for names and pronouns and hair and clothing and such...sure.  No harm.  

But I am still sad about her name.  And I know that is entirely my issue and I’m keeping it to myself.  

[Terabith]

49 minutes ago, kbutton said:

That sounds kind of OCD or like she's absorbed some "extra" requirement to be conscious of this in a special way.

We overthink a lot of stuff in our modern world, and it sounds like she's into overthinking lots of things...specifically a person might fixate on this or that now and then, but she's taken the whole list of things some people might fixate upon and decided to fixate on all of it. 

Maybe she's uncomfortable with growing up in general, the pressure of what she's supposed to do for the rest of her life, etc. and her body is betraying her by aging before the rest of her is ready. IDK. Just thinking out loud. It sounds to me like she needs something to blame all of her anxiety on, so maybe this is it. But I really have NO IDEA if that's a realistic idea.

I am confused about the different name thing unless maybe this is the most convenient way for her to think of her problems with her body, and she's trying to "do dysphoria right." I tend to think that if a trans person with a lot of life experience is telling you this isn't it, it isn't, but then the name thing is...what? An attempt to "get it right"?

I think she is uncomfortable with the idea of growing up.  And I think that yes, she’s trying to “do dysphoria right.”   And it is a script to follow, and an explanation for all those feelings of I don’t know who I really am that are part of the universal adolescent experience.  

[Pen]

What are you feeling happy about, gratitude for? 

 

[Terabith]

I’m happy that she was comfortable enough to come to us and tell us that she couldn’t handle school before she got to the breaking point.  I am happy that she talks openly with us about pretty much everything, including the gender issues.  I am happy that I was both knowledgeable enough about homeschooling and in a financial position that we were able to pretty much instantly pull her from school, even if she never does anything more academic in her life.  I’m happy that she’s got the skills that doing classes at the community college is an option.  I’m happy that we have family support for pulling her.  I’m happy that the Zoloft is helping some, even if it doesn’t seem to be enough.  That at least she’s not continuing to get worse.  

[Susan in TX]

19 hours ago, Terabith said:

 But the way she describes it is, “I think I am non-binary because I don’t really think of myself as having a gender.  I’m just me.  I don’t really feel like a girl or a boy.”  

 

I think this is a normal feeling...at least this is how I feel. I am just me.  But I have never thought of myself as non-binary because that just wasn't a thing when I was growing up. I never had to worry about how I felt. I knew I was a girl because I had girl plumbing. It is tough for kids these days. I am not sure how I would have turned out if I had had to decide which gender I was based on my feelings.

Susan in TX

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I’m happy that the Zoloft is helping some, even if it doesn’t seem to be enough.

It's an SSRI, so they're not hitting the norepinephrine at all. That would take an SNRI or an SSNRI. 

In other words, don't stop pushing on the medication side. We've gotten RADICALLY different answers with different doctors. Some seem to have these sort of pat answers, like oh I just put everybody on this. We finally found someone who THINKS. There's a lot of chemistry to think about here.

[shinyhappypeople]

(edited out the personal stuff)

Regarding the non-binary stuff, this might be helpful (or not), but I'll put the link here just in case: Parents of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria  

Edited December 14, 2019 by shinyhappypeople

[Pen]

16 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I’m happy that she was comfortable enough to come to us and tell us that she couldn’t handle school before she got to the breaking point.  I am happy that she talks openly with us about pretty much everything, including the gender issues.  I am happy that I was both knowledgeable enough about homeschooling and in a financial position that we were able to pretty much instantly pull her from school, even if she never does anything more academic in her life.  I’m happy that she’s got the skills that doing classes at the community college is an option.  I’m happy that we have family support for pulling her.  I’m happy that the Zoloft is helping some, even if it doesn’t seem to be enough.  That at least she’s not continuing to get worse.  

 

That’s good!  That’s a lot to start with!

 

I think a lot of what you describe is fairly “normal” for teens  AND also normal for parents of teens.  Distresses related to growing up, angst...for the teen.    Distresses that the teen isn’t any longer the little kid the parent once had.

But it’s good too.  It’s a process.  

And there are losses, whether it’s the name you gave her, or depression, or for some other parent maybe it’s dealing with tats and piercings, for another maybe it’s drugs...  

And the growing up issues are colored by the times.  Maybe that was Woodstock once upon a time, or “gender” issues and vaping now.  

At the same time you are probably gaining a youngster moving into more independence and adulthood. With road bumps. And detours. And a lot of construction work. 

We as parents want the road to be easy and smooth for them, but it rarely is. 

 

[Pen]

You might want to look at books like William Walsh *Nutrient Power*, Alex Korb *Upward Spiral*, Howard Glasser Various on *Nurtured Heart Approach*, Barry Kaufman *Happiness is a Choice* , Daniel Siegel *Mindstorm* ...

for helping heal your own anxiety and to help dealing with your own grief—as well as for possibly helping Anna or Andy or whatever name your child chose. 

[SanDiegoMom]

I would probably try to gauge whether anything did happen at school to prompt these feelings.  Unwanted male attention, comments, gossip, etc.  I know for myself growing up I tried to guard against any type of male attention -- I wore baggy clothes all the time and the fear of attention definitely fed into my eating disorder. (trying to make myself disappear) .  I was very happy when I got into my 40's and knew it wasn't an issue anymore:)  I still wear pretty baggy clothes, though now it's just for comfort. 

Wanting to erase gender seems like a similar idea, though that might just be looking through my own lens at it. 

[sweet2ndchance]

56 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I’m happy that the Zoloft is helping some, even if it doesn’t seem to be enough.

 

52 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It's an SSRI, so they're not hitting the norepinephrine at all. That would take an SNRI or an SSNRI. 

I just wanted to comment on the medication part. Among other things, I am diagnosed with severe chronic depression and anxiety, PTSD/C-PTSD and a whole lot of other suspected but not confirmed yet mental issues. This most recent and onoing round with medications we started with Zoloft. Zoloft definitely helped no question about it but it was like taking a regular dose of tylenol for a migraine. Maybe it took a little bit of an edge off the pain for a little while but it definitely doesn't make you feel completely better, KWIM? We messed around with increasing the dose of Zoloft for a while to see if we could increase the good effect for before the side effects became unbearable. But ultimately, there was a ceiling to the good effects and the high doses were making me zombie like. I wasn't living anymore, I was just existing. The Zoloft was helping mask or suppress some of the troublesome emotions I was experiencing but it also kept me from experiencing excitement and pleasure and other "good" or mostly good emotions. My husband often described me as "a Zoloft zombie", lol.

Since I was at the max dose of Zoloft and things still weren't "right", definitely better than they were pre-medication but still not right, it was suggested I try an snri for while. I've been on different anti-depressants over the years so I wasn't really expecting a huge change. I'd never seen a huge difference between taking Lexapro vs Zoloft vs Wellbutrin vs all the other antidepressants I've tried so why would this new class of anti-depressant be any different? I. Was. So. Wrong. The difference was night and day. I've been on Effexor for a couple years now and it is definitely what I personally need for my mental health conditions. When I went back for the first med check after starting Effexor, I remember telling the doctor that I only thought I was doing better on Zoloft. I had no idea how much difference a medication could make until I was on the right class of drug for me.  Has it "cured" my laundry list of mental health conditions? No, but it definitely makes them a ton easier to manage most days.

Long story short, don't accept that "helping some" is as good as it gets with mental health medications. I accepted that "helping some" is all mental health medication was good for, for a long time. Far too long to be completely honest. If she has been taking it for more than a few months (2 - 3 I would say roughly) and she's not getting progressively better as the weeks go by, try a different medication. Preferably a different class of medication as there are a fair few classes of anti-depressant. Why try more of the same by trying another drug from the same class? It might help, but chances are it will give pretty close to the same results. Since everyone is different, what works for me might not work for your dd and what works for your dd probably won't work for me but if she's not steadily improving each week for the first 8 - 12 weeks of taking an anti-depressant, then IMO it is time to try something else until you do see improvement each week. Chances are, there IS an anti-depressant out there that will help make a difference between "just surviving" and "successfully managing" mental health issues. Good luck finding what works for her! 

[Pen]

For you mostly (though she might find these useful too): 

The Upward Spiral Workbook: A Practical Neuroscience Program for Reversing the Course of Depression (A New Harbinger Self-Help Workbook) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07J2BJKYY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_W-R8DbB104ZQG

 

Happiness Is a Choice https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KABDY8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_CmS8Db4C89PJ0

[Pen]

Guilt, Shame, and Anxiety: Understanding and Overcoming Negative Emotions https://www.amazon.com/dp/1616141492/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_4yS8DbP5DSBR9

[Pen]

 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:59 AM, Terabith said:

Part of it is also that she was always my high achiever.  People would look at Cat hissing at people at church, and I could always point to Anna and say, “Look; she’s normal and high achieving.  It’s not my fault!”   It’s a stupid ego blow.  And also she’s having this non binary identity thing but doesn’t want to make it public but wants us to call her by this other name and I want to support her, but losing the name I chose for her.  Just feels like I have lost so much of who she was.  Her confidence, her sparkle, her faith, her enthusiasm.  It’s just...it’s like when the fairies steal your child and leave a changeling.  I can love who she is now, but I miss who she used to be.  

 

Emotionally, it sounds like her achievements and sparkle were big supports for you.  

[Terabith]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

Emotionally, it sounds like her achievements and sparkle were big supports for you.  

Well, she was just delightful and fun to be around.   She was funny, curious, and enthusiastic.  She had things she loved.  But yes, there was definitely an element of her providing evidence that I was a good parent.  It was a counter balance to my other kid who might growl at you.  

[Lecka]

I had (and maybe still have?) that dynamic and when my son started doing a lot better, my other two kids got a lot worse in their behavior and attitude.  I think it really was pressure on them that I had no way of seeing, until afterward.  And then since then I have realized it was a lot of pressure!  Especially for my older son.  
 

This summer at VBS my daughter was really publicly bratty to me — which she had really never done — and in the meantime my son was doing the best he had ever done at an activity like VBS. 
 

I do my best!

 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Terabith said:

Well, she was just delightful and fun to be around.   She was funny, curious, and enthusiastic.  She had things she loved.  But yes, there was definitely an element of her providing evidence that I was a good parent.  It was a counter balance to my other kid who might growl at you.  

 

I think grieving seems pretty normal for your situation.  At same time, I think to be able to support your daughter, you need to find help for yourself.

So that you can be more separate and sturdy for her.  And for yourself. Maybe you can be her rock and her sunshine to some degree...or at least your own. 

 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:44 AM, PeterPan said:

Now you. The only person you can really help is yourself. How is *your* anxiety? What can you do to help yourself? I know you're stressed and recurrently sick, but what would it REALLY TAKE to get your own emotions and anxiety and whatnot in check? At some point, you two are becoming separate people. It is not YOUR failure if she has continuing problems. It's called HER problem, her life journey. You have to take your separate journey and help YOURSELF. That's the best way to help her, by radically taking care of yourself.

 

Agree.

 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:44 AM, PeterPan said:

That's ok.

That was a learning experience.

We were expecting to have mistakes.

We'll regroup and find a new way.

It will be fine.

 

Those are great! 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:44 AM, PeterPan said:

Kwim? When you don't FEEL it, those feel like lies. But lie, kwim? Because if you sat down with a psych and had a really professional, birds' eye view, they would help you see what is important, what's not, where this is going, what to worry about, what not to worry about. There's a certain amount of re-adjusting the focus, the emphasis, the freakout point. 

 

👍

 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:44 AM, PeterPan said:

I'm in your corner, we'll keep problem solving, you're going to have a good life. 

 

👍

 

[Pen]

 

On 12/11/2019 at 1:14 PM, Terabith said:

 But the way she describes it is, “I think I am non-binary because I don’t really think of myself as having a gender.  I’m just me.  I don’t really feel like a girl or a boy.”  And I think there is definitely a social aspect to it.  It’s a way of explaining why you feel like you don’t fit.  

 

To me that’s just “normal” for probably the majority who aren’t constantly thinking about what sex, gender, species etc they are and just accept being the gender that fits body (and the species that fits body) and go on with day to day life without constantly thinking “I’m a ____” but has gotten taken by current generation to be a “symptom”. 

I think that’s  a problem for the current crop of kids

 

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Terabith said:

 It was a counter balance to my other kid who might growl at you.  

This goes back to taking care of you. My dd left, and with her went all the amazing things she had been doing that made our lives good. You may need to do some self care here and replace what is missing. Intentionally make a new friend, take up a hobby, something.

Liberty puzzles don't have germs and won't make you sick. Liberty Puzzles - Wooden Jigsaw Puzzles - Custom Puzzles ...https://www.libertypuzzles.com

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

To me that’s just “normal” for probably the majority who aren’t constantly thinking about what sex, gender, species etc they are and just accept being the gender that fits body (and the species that fits body) and go on with day to day life without constantly thinking “I’m a ____” but has gotten taken by current generation to be a “symptom”. 

I think that’s  a problem for the current crop of kids

 

Exactly!  But it’s really tricky to express this without sounding dismissive of her perceived experience.  

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Exactly!  But it’s really tricky to express this without sounding dismissive of her perceived experience.  

 

Yes. That’s true.

though perhaps it’s possible to say “Most people I know aren’t especially thinking of themselves as a particular gender most of the time.”

maybe it doesn’t matter all that much if someone wants to be called John or Joan or she or they.  ...    Language may well change.   All that seems sort of like , ok, so what...      But I guess for teens in angst and trying to figure out Who They Are it seems Very Important.  

(Though some therapists now seem to grab hold of anything along those lines to mean that hormones or so forth on way to some sex reassignment should be started.) 

 

[Terabith]

Yeah, we have definitely talked about how nobody we know sits around thinking about their gender that much.  

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, we have definitely talked about how nobody we know sits around thinking about their gender that much.  

 

Though in some circles “What’s your pronoun?” has replaced “What’s your zodiac sign?”   

[Terabith]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Though in some circles “What’s your pronoun?” has replaced “What’s your zodiac sign?”   

It's a standard question on beginning of semester questionnaires at most colleges. 

[Pen]

6 hours ago, Terabith said:

It's a standard question on beginning of semester questionnaires at most colleges. 

 

Which could help some kids to feel more “included”- and like they don’t have to fit in to the former  two choice options only— no doubt the goal.

 But for others it may well result in more cogitation and self questioning, more angst, especially if there’s already some anxiety (or obsessing or ruminating) tendencies. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Pen

[ktgrok]

Something that helped me when I had to face that my kid wasn't going to be getting the scholarships and doing all the things I thought he would, at least not on the timeline it seems like everyone else's kids were was to read/listen/seek out stories from very successful people who also didn't follow the traditional path or timeline. 

People like Gary Varnderchuck who failed tons of classes, didn't go to college, etc but is happy and successful. Or my DH who dropped out of highschool, faked a high school degree then when it came to a head at a job quickly took the GED and then much later got a BS and is now almost done with an MS and makes a good living and is continually moving up the ladder. But at 20 something he was sleeping on someone's couch working a dead end job. There are so many examples of creative, successful people who didn't do things the "right" way. But we seem surrounded by people talking about how their kid got into such and such school, got this or that scholarship, etc etc so it feels like our kid is the only one. 

[ktgrok]

I also remind myself that my kid is learning about mental and emotional self care and health now rather than like so many people who do that in their 40s or later, having a mental breakdown, getting fired or quitting their job yet still having the pressure of a family to support, a mortgage, etc. Better to learn those skill now!

[ElizabethB]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Something that helped me when I had to face that my kid wasn't going to be getting the scholarships and doing all the things I thought he would, at least not on the timeline it seems like everyone else's kids were was to read/listen/seek out stories from very successful people who also didn't follow the traditional path or timeline. 

People like Gary Varnderchuck who failed tons of classes, didn't go to college, etc but is happy and successful. Or my DH who dropped out of highschool, faked a high school degree then when it came to a head at a job quickly took the GED and then much later got a BS and is now almost done with an MS and makes a good living and is continually moving up the ladder. But at 20 something he was sleeping on someone's couch working a dead end job. There are so many examples of creative, successful people who didn't do things the "right" way. But we seem surrounded by people talking about how their kid got into such and such school, got this or that scholarship, etc etc so it feels like our kid is the only one. 

The guy who designed Speechify is dyslexic.  There is still his app, but the link from the article doesn't work.  His story is very inspirational.

https://www.inc.com/john-boitnott/how-one-founder-turned-his-dyslexia-into-an-app-th.html

Speechify.

https://www.getspeechify.com

[Terabith]

My husband said today that he’s given up hope of her successfully living independently or supporting herself.  And... I’m not ready to give that up yet.  

[Susan in TX]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My husband said today that he’s given up hope of her successfully living independently or supporting herself.  And... I’m not ready to give that up yet.  

 

Your daughter is only in 10th grade, correct? I get that things look really bleak right now and you might need to adjust your expectations of what her future will look like but it is way too soon to give up hope. Sometimes you need to find a different doctor or a different therapist but there is help out there. Just don't give up! 

Susan in TX

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

My husband said today that he’s given up hope of her successfully living independently or supporting herself.  And... I’m not ready to give that up yet.  

Oh my goodness - no! She's SO young still! She may find meds that work, or may simply mature! Again, look at all those with rocky paths to success! Who we are as a teenager does not define us!

Seriously, some of these kids have delays, but slower doesn't mean never!

She's tried what, one medication? Worked with a therapist for how long? How many of them? Figured out what self care? 

She's a baby in the grand scheme of things. She has her whole life - give her a few years to figure this out. 

[Terabith]

Yeah...I totally am not there.  I think she has a ton of potential.  Partly I think he just tries to have low expectations so as not to get hurt.  She’s tried one antidepressant and they recently added buspar.  She’s on the same meds as our younger daughter,  but a slightly lower dose.  They basically prescribe by family history.  They’ve helped, though not as much as we’d like.  But it’s still only been a matter of weeks.  Therapist for several months, but she’s pretty non directive.  And Anna values her time with her, but I have wondered about also adding an EMDR or CBT therapist with specific goals.  I think part of the issue is that Anna doesn’t seem to have any goals beyond being vaguely comfortable.  She did go to a party yesterday with a friend and said she’d like to visit the tiny private high school she attends.  It’s small, 60 kids or so, and very academically rigorous, but quirky.  They have a quidditch team.  They really value the arts.  I think it could be a good fit, if they would take someone who basically lost her tenth grade year.  I think we’re going to give up trying to get her to do precalculus.  She almost has a ptsd response to it.  When she DOES the work, it’s not too hard.  Twenty minutes to complete a lesson.  But it seems to take her psychologically to a bad place.  And she’s always going to learn better in community.  And she’s in tenth grade.  There’s no reason you have to hit calculus by junior year.  But that puts her doing college writing and psychology at the community college, Spanish with a tutor, and taking art lessons.   Not a rigorous schedule.  Maybe geology over the summer.  I think that’s about all she can handle right now, honestly, but it’s not probably enough hours wise to get a lot of credit.  I don’t know if she’d be psychologically in a place she could handle the private school by next year.   But I could see it being really good if it worked.  I think she really needs more social interaction than she’s getting, because she’s an extrovert, but she’s resistant to much, because she has social anxiety.  

[Ausmumof3]

I wonder if there’s anything helpful in Mayim Bialeks blog or the “Girling Up” book.  She has such a chatty matter of fact tone but good science behind her stuff.