I’m just really grieving and I can’t explain it to anyone

[Terabith]

She denies anything bad happened at school,  but honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m a few years we find out something seriously traumatic happened.  The way she acts even when we just drive by...

[ktgrok]

First, not only does she not need calculus Jr year, but most kids NEVER take calculus. Like, ever, in their whole lives. It sounds like she has this incredible idea of what is "normal" or "expected" and feels if she falls short of that, she's a failure?

For the record, i never took calculus - ever 🙂

Neither did my husband, and he makes 6 figures in a tech field. Seriously, life is not all or nothing, there is no set path for smart kids.

Does she have ADHD and if so has she tried meds? Things like social anxiety and fear of getting behind in class etc can be an expression of ADHD, particularly in girls. I was SHOCKED when I got on meds and went to a work event with my husband. For the first time in my life i was remembering people's names! It hit me then how much of my social anxiety was that I struggled to remember people's names - and I started wondering what my life would have been like if I'd been medicated while a teen. Sigh. Anyway, hard to track conversations if you have ADHD. 

As for her schedule, here at least a college class for one semester counts as one full year of highschool work. So 3 college classes each semester would be the same as taking 6 courses for the year if that makes sense. So a year of highschool English is one credit, or a semester of ENC1101 is one credit. So she may not have as light a schedule as you think, credit wise. 

But it REALLY sounds like everyone in this situation has incredibly high bar set for "normal" for her, including her, and they need to knock that off, lol. I mean, we have a girl taking college courses in her Junior year but because they are not enough courses, and because her PSAT dropped from stellar to just really impressive, people think she may never live independently?!?! I mean, when you say it out loud, it sounds insane, right?

What if she was given the freedom to be average for a while, rather than high achieving? 

I say this as someone that has a very high IQ but who does not handle high pressure/high expectations well at all. 

[Kanin]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

She did go to a party yesterday with a friend and said she’d like to visit the tiny private high school she attends.  It’s small, 60 kids or so, and very academically rigorous, but quirky.  They have a quidditch team.  They really value the arts.

Now THAT sounds like a neat place to go to school!

[Pen]

15 hours ago, Terabith said:

My husband said today that he’s given up hope of her successfully living independently or supporting herself.  And... I’m not ready to give that up yet.  

 

Sounds like Dad needs therapy himself?

This makes no sense for a 10th grader as described.

If she were in a coma after car crash and doctors saying, recovery hopeless, well, even then it might not be time to give up....  But a rough patch emotionally in 10th grade?  No.  

How to Feed a Brain: Nutrition for Optimal Brain Function and Repair https://www.amazon.com/dp/099950021X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_fKM9DbVXN7GNR     Is by someone who *was* in a coma after severe traumatic injury.   

 

5 hours ago, Terabith said:

Yeah...I totally am not there.  I think she has a ton of potential.  Partly I think he just tries to have low expectations so as not to get hurt.  

 

That could be.  

But the strange mix of absurdly ultra high expectations and absurdly ultra pessimistic views seems to me unlikely to benefit a child in difficulty.  Even if not directly communicated to her those feelings are probably coming through. 

 

Quote

She’s tried one antidepressant and they recently added buspar.  She’s on the same meds as our younger daughter,  but a slightly lower dose.  They basically prescribe by family history.  They’ve helped, though not as much as we’d like.  But it’s still only been a matter of weeks.  Therapist for several months, but she’s pretty non directive.  And Anna values her time with her, but I have wondered about also adding an EMDR or CBT therapist with specific goals.

 

Adding those sounds like a good idea.  Maybe EMDR would help reduce trauma to where CBT would be more helpful. 

 

Adding on nutritional, exercise, sleep, nature, sunshine, etc therapy seems like it would be wise too. 

Quote

 I think part of the issue is that Anna doesn’t seem to have any goals beyond being vaguely comfortable.  She did go to a party yesterday with a friend and said she’d like to visit the tiny private high school she attends.  It’s small, 60 kids or so, and very academically rigorous, but quirky.  They have a quidditch team.  

 

Great!  Make plans for her to visit there!

Quote

They really value the arts.  I think it could be a good fit,

 

Great! Check it out.  Maybe it would be a good fit.  Or better. Or good enough

Quote

if they would take someone who basically lost her tenth grade year.

 

Please — I hope you will Stop with the negativity. It can’t be good for you or her.  🤷‍♀️

like every potential positive needs a but, or if, or negative, or anxious thought, or worry tacked on to it

as if belief system requires a negative or several negatives for every positive

And that’s detrimental to emotional health.   

 

Try for at least 3 positives to counteract every negative. 

 

 

Quote

 I think we’re going to give up trying to get her to do precalculus.

 

Good. Give it up!  (Amen.) 

Quote

 She almost has a ptsd response to it.  

 

I’m also long distance almost having a PTSD response to your descriptions of what you want her to do!!!   

Quote

When she DOES the work, it’s not too hard.  Twenty minutes to complete a lesson.  But it seems to take her psychologically to a bad place.  And she’s always going to learn better in community.  And she’s in tenth grade.  There’s no reason you have to hit calculus by junior year.  

 

She doesn’t have to have precalculus, let alone calculus, ever.

And can still become a functioning adult.  

And maybe is more likely to be able to be a functioning adult without pressure to do precalculus ever. 

 

Quote

But that puts her doing college writing and psychology at the community college, Spanish with a tutor, and taking art lessons.   Not a rigorous schedule.  Maybe geology over the summer.

 

Eeek!!! 

You are all way, way  over pressured, and over pressuring,  as I read it. Seriously.

Only college writing and college psychology as a high school student strikes you as not rigorous enough?!?!?! 

 

(ETA:   I’d be like, 👍 wow, that’s fantastic, she’s doing awesome!  Even if only *one* cc class out of those two.  And it’s fine to be zero cc classes too!  ) 

2 classes at cc and some art and Spanish is more than plenty for a high school student!!!  It is way advanced for a high school student to take a college class. Not a failure in rigorousness.  

And she may need just one easy cc class to start with in order to get a feel for doing a cc class at all, being on cc campus.  That’s not a negative, “but only” situation.   That would be a great forward step.  

 

 

Imo, you need to Knock it off on your idea of “rigorous” as being needed.  

 

I probably really am having ptsd triggered because it reminds me of my own teen situation...     

 

 

Quote

 I think that’s about all she can handle right now, honestly, but it’s not probably enough hours wise to get a lot of credit.  I don’t know if she’d be psychologically in a place she could handle the private school by next year.   But I could see it being really good if it worked.  I think she really needs more social interaction than she’s getting, because she’s an extrovert, but she’s resistant to much, because she has social anxiety.  

 

One step at a time.

Arrange a visit.

If she likes the school, then face issues like her being admitted (might need to be as 10th grader).

But maybe consider finances first.  Iirc you had written that finances precluded private school?  Maybe that was someone else.  

And if she has that as a goal, then CBT etc might help.  Or CBT might help even to do a visit to the school.  

There are a lot of promising nutrients for helping things like social anxiety as well. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Pen

[maize]

My sister who had a lot of mental health struggles as a teen ended up taking an extra year to get through high school. That's always an option, it's what a lot of kids with health challenges do.

DBT therapy in a really good program was ultimately what helped her most, I strongly recommend seeing what is available for DBT in your area.

[Terabith]

Oh gosh....  No, my husband's musing about her ability to live independently has NOTHING to do with PSAT scores or when or if she takes calculus or if she ever does another academic endeavor in her life.  Frankly, she's got enough academics to function just fine now.  She could walk into any mid level liberal arts college in the country and do fine.  Academics aren't even on the list.  No, the concern is entirely mental health based.  It's based more on how much energy it takes us to get her out of bed, to eat, to leave the house, that sort of stuff.  How much time she spends crying and panicking.  

She doesn't really have any goals.  That's, in my opinion, the biggest hurdle.  She's not fighting or working towards anything.  

The small high school is really pretty affordable.  We could do it.  It's on a par with the cost of community college.  

Exercise, sunshine, etc would all be excellent, but we can't get her to do those things.  We can barely get her to eat any food, let alone maximal nutrition.  Haven't found anyone in our city who does DBT, and I've looked.  

[Terabith]

The reason I'm saying light schedule is because she's doing NOTHING at home.  I cannot get her to even watch Great Courses videos with no output.  I can't get her to listen to books I read out loud.  I'm really not being pressuring by saying her tenth grade year is pretty much not happening; it's simply the truth.  I'm hoping that she'll rise to the occasion of the community college classes.  I think there's a good chance she will, but it's certainly not a guarantee.  Outsourcing really feels like our only option, because she will not work for me or my husband.  Like I said, we can't get her to get out of bed or eat or sleep or put away laundry or take a walk.  Quite literally, the most engaged she is is occasionally playing video games.  I'm hoping that having somewhere she has to be at a certain time and regular social interaction will help.  She is an extrovert...she's just an extrovert with social anxiety.  

[Pen]

Take a look at research and anecdotal reviews on Inositol and NAC with regard to (social and other) anxiety.

And do check out the small private school with quidditch. 

[Terabith]

Yeah, if we can get her functional, I think the small private school with quidditch could be a really good fit.  But it's VERY academically intense, so she would need to be functional.  Definitely will visit.  She has friends there, which would be good.  

[Pen]

Just now, Terabith said:

Yeah, if we can get her functional, I think the small private school with quidditch could be a really good fit.  But it's VERY academically intense, so she would need to be functional.  Definitely will visit.  She has friends there, which would be good.  

 

If it’s very academically intense and if she’d not feel okay to start in 10th grade over again next year, or jump in to rest of tenth or ninth now,  it might not be a great fit.   It sounds like she needs something laid back, not more of academically intense.  

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

If it’s very academically intense and if she’d not feel okay to start in 10th grade over again next year, or jump in to rest of tenth or ninth now,  it might not be a great fit.   It sounds like she needs something laid back, not more of academically intense.  

She's definitely not jumping in now.  Starting mid year isn't really the way the school works, and we're going to try a couple community college classes and see if she could handle them.  It's academically intense, but the classes are tiny and supportive, faculty are first name, lots of inter-disciplinary studies, no grades.  So, it's very nontraditional, but they write a lot of papers and read a lot.  I'm not sure the ideal situation exists.  I think it's worth visiting the school, and having a social community to get up for in the morning could go a LONG way.  But it definitely might not be the right fit.  I'm totally fine with her repeating tenth grade, but I don't know if the school would be, and I'm not sure if in three years, she will be.  Her birthday's in November, so she's not a young for grade kid.  I think taking a mental health year and repeating would be fine, but I know that's not an option for public schools, at least.  And I know it's pretty common for kids to turn 18 and be like, "I am DONE and out of here," and I don't want her to be locked into a situation where that's not an option.  She'd already be turning 18 in November of her senior year.  We held my younger kid out a year, but her birthday is end of April, so she won't turn 19 till very end of her senior year.  And she's ASD, although bizarrely socially mature in many ways.  It was the right call when she was starting third grade, but I'm not sure it won't be a mistake in high school, but what's done is done.  

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She's definitely not jumping in now.  Starting mid year isn't really the way the school works, and we're going to try a couple community college classes and see if she could handle them.  It's academically intense, but the classes are tiny and supportive, faculty are first name, lots of inter-disciplinary studies, no grades. 

 

No grades would probably be a huge help.  

And “supportive” sounds good. 

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, it's very nontraditional, but they write a lot of papers and read a lot.  I'm not sure the ideal situation exists.  I think it's worth visiting the school, and having a social community to get up for in the morning could go a LONG way.  But it definitely might not be the right fit.  I'm totally fine with her repeating tenth grade, but I don't know if the school would be, and I'm not sure if in three years, she will be.  Her birthday's in November, so she's not a young for grade kid.  I think taking a mental health year and repeating would be fine, but I know that's not an option for public schools, at least.  And I know it's pretty common for kids to turn 18 and be like, "I am DONE and out of here," and I don't want her to be locked into a situation where that's not an option.  She'd already be turning 18 in November of her senior year.  We held my younger kid out a year, but her birthday is end of April, so she won't turn 19 till very end of her senior year.  And she's ASD, although bizarrely socially mature in many ways.  It was the right call when she was starting third grade, but I'm not sure it won't be a mistake in high school, but what's done is done.  

 

I think all that “turning 18 when” is another unfortunate  stress.  Kids mature as they mature, not according to a calendar deadline.  

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

Oh gosh....  No, my husband's musing about her ability to live independently has NOTHING to do with PSAT scores or when or if she takes calculus or if she ever does another academic endeavor in her life.  Frankly, she's got enough academics to function just fine now.  She could walk into any mid level liberal arts college in the country and do fine.  Academics aren't even on the list.  No, the concern is entirely mental health based.  It's based more on how much energy it takes us to get her out of bed, to eat, to leave the house, that sort of stuff.  How much time she spends crying and panicking.  

She doesn't really have any goals.  That's, in my opinion, the biggest hurdle.  She's not fighting or working towards anything.  

The small high school is really pretty affordable.  We could do it.  It's on a par with the cost of community college.  

Exercise, sunshine, etc would all be excellent, but we can't get her to do those things.  We can barely get her to eat any food, let alone maximal nutrition.  Haven't found anyone in our city who does DBT, and I've looked.  

 

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

The reason I'm saying light schedule is because she's doing NOTHING at home.  I cannot get her to even watch Great Courses videos with no output.  I can't get her to listen to books I read out loud.  I'm really not being pressuring by saying her tenth grade year is pretty much not happening; it's simply the truth.  I'm hoping that she'll rise to the occasion of the community college classes.  I think there's a good chance she will, but it's certainly not a guarantee.  Outsourcing really feels like our only option, because she will not work for me or my husband.  Like I said, we can't get her to get out of bed or eat or sleep or put away laundry or take a walk.  Quite literally, the most engaged she is is occasionally playing video games.  I'm hoping that having somewhere she has to be at a certain time and regular social interaction will help.  She is an extrovert...she's just an extrovert with social anxiety.  

1. She has no goals because she is depressed, and people who are depressed don't like things, in general. they don't like or take pleasure in anything right now, so they can't imagine liking something in the future. When the depression is resolved she will have goals of some sort, even if they aren to what you originally thought they would be. 

2. She is not eating/sleeping/etc at a functional level, correct? And yet you are talking about schools and schedules and credits. You need to stop focusing on those things, and get the eating/sleeping/excericse in order. Imagine she was in a horrible accident and medically could not do school. Would you focus on physical therapy/meds/surgery or would you be wondering what courses she would take next semester? Forget school. She is in a medical crisis, and that is the focus. Spend the rest of this year teaching/helping her learn self care and get healthy. School will be there once she is health. It is not something to rush into while she's half sane and have her end up worse. In the course of her life it makes zero difference if she finishes 10 grade this year or next year. She could never finish it at all and get a GED, or you could just graduate her based on the fact that she is already academically at a level to enter college. So if you graduate based on knowledge learned vs time spent she'd graduate right now - so forget about all that. Seriously. 

And then tell her that. Tell her that you don't give a rat's furry behind about what courses she takes when, what you care about is that she is a healthy, happy person. Period. And that your only goal is to get her healthy and happy, and that should be her goal too. And that you may still push her to take care of herself, because she isn't capable of doing that on her own right now, but not because you need her to be ready to take classes, just to be healthy and happy. 

When my son was in this spot (not crying - more angry - but gaming and sleeping and such) what helped was volunteer work. We took the year off school, and I told him he had a choice of three places I picked (just telling him to find somewhere was beyond his depressed brain) and whichever he picked I'd drop him off at. He volunteered with injured wildlife and it probably saved his life. The birds didn't care about his grades, or when he'd graduate, or what he wore or if he had enough friends. They were hungry, and he fed them, and they were glad. Period. Plus it got him outside. 

[ktgrok]

Also, in veterinary medicine we were taught that antidepressants take about 4 weeks to really change the brain chemicals to a noticeable level, then it takes another 2 weeks for the animal to start to change behavior. I'm assuming it is similar in people.So I'd give it 6 weeks to decide if something is helping, but if at that point it isn't I do know several people who were SO much better on Effexor (which helps different brain chemicals)

[Terabith]

Yeah, they picked zoloft because her sister did well on it and I did well on it for a very long time.  I took effexor years ago and had a pretty negative response to both it and wellbutrin, so we're a little nervous about SNRIs.  But yeah, that's obviously a good next thing to try.  

[EKS]

Against my better judgment, I am posting this.

I am a person who would have been diagnosed with "gender identity disorder in children" as defined by the DSM IV, though by the time the DSM IV came out, I was no longer a child.  Even when the DSM III came out, with it's diagnosis of "gender identity disorder" for adults, I was on my way to making peace with the reality of my biological sex.  As an adult, I present as androgynous, to the point where I am used to being called "sir," but I have no desire at this point to change my body or my pronouns.

I am grateful that the message I got throughout my childhood was that biological sex is something that cannot be changed, so instead of railing against the unfairness of being "born into" the "wrong" gender, I was able to get on with the work of making peace with reality.  

I think that the current climate is unbelievably harmful for the majority of gender-questioning children and teens.  

To the OP: I am so sorry that your daughter is having such a hard time.  I want you to know that I think that your instincts are right on.

 

 

[PeterPan]

15 hours ago, Terabith said:

But that puts her doing college writing and psychology at the community college, Spanish with a tutor, and taking art lessons.   Not a rigorous schedule.

That’s 12 credits, a full time load in 10th. It may be a lot for her. You might drop to 3 classes if they’re mostly DE.

[Pen]

50 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That’s 12 credits, a full time load in 10th. It may be a lot for her. You might drop to 3 classes if they’re mostly DE.

 

Maybe something like cc psychology and cc yoga or tai chi so emphasis would be emotional and physical health more than credits.   

[PeterPan]

If she has never been on a college campus taking classes, she's going to have a learning curve there. She may want to get involved in activities. There's no reason to have her start over-committed.

[Terabith]

College writing and psychology are each three credits.  Have pondered adding a three credit math.  That would be a max of nine credits.   She’s currently signed up for six credits.  Community college has no pe classes, so yoga or tai chi wouldn’t work.  The Y has yoga, but you have to be 18, and the noise level in the Y per se is overwhelming.

Art lessons are one hour once every week to two weeks.  No homework.  Spanish tutoring is an average of once a week for about 90 minutes.  Occasional homework of about 15 minutes.  Possible recreational drama class an hour once a week.  She is doing no homeschool work.  Nobody will accept a volunteer under 18, which is frustrating.  My goal honestly is not academics; it’s getting her out of the house, interaction with people, and giving her constructive things to do and think about outside of her head.  A job would be fine for that purpose, too.

Getting her to exercise is really hard given sound levels at the Y and gym.  Outside is unpleasant and windy, and the sound of wind is a particular trigger.  Frankly, we’re doing the most inefficient grocery shopping anyone could possibly do pretty much every day because I can generally use it as a way to get her out of the house and moving and the grocery store is a good place to get a couple thousand steps.   I am pretty sure she thinks I’m an idiot who can never remember the shopping list from day to day and I only remember what we needed after we passed that aisle three aisles ago.  

The mall at Christmas is a complete nonstarter in terms of noise and crowds.  

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Nobody will accept a volunteer under 18

animal shelter?

[Terabith]

Just now, PeterPan said:

animal shelter?

Have to be 18.  

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

sound levels

Dd knew she had problems, but they *skyrocketed* when she got on a college campus. Small rooms, big lecture rooms, a/c units, all kinds of issues. Is her audiology paper trail updated? She may want to sit close to the front, with her best ear for processing toward the lecturer.

[Terabith]

It’s weird because she could get a job at 16 pretty easily.  It’s possible that if I volunteered with her they might let you volunteer at 16.

We are doing audiology testing now.  I’m not sure she actually has auditory processing disorder.  What she has is a startle reaction and anxiety generated by certain sounds.  It has more to do with frequency than volume, but volume is also an issue.  Writing class has max of eight students.   Psychology has 20.  Wouldn’t be on campus more than 2-3 hours.  I’m not sure if there even ARE activities.  But the goal is social engagement, so that would be good.  

[Pen]

Hyper startle response?

Sometimes glycine (or another amino acid?) and or zinc, copper, magnesium... can relate to that... 

 

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Terabith said:

What she has is a startle reaction and anxiety generated by certain sounds.

So they know that the hyper-responsitivity to sensory is due to nerves over firing. There's some new research on it and rat studies using a medication to try to chill it. It's separate from things like filtering background noise (my dd's issue). So for my dd, if she has to filter the professor's voice against background noise, that wears her out. It's both attention and the background noise filtering, sigh. 

You know this, but there's also a startle reflex, an early reflex. Maybe if you targeted just that *one* you'd make some progress? Like maybe it's lynch pin and holding everything else back? I forget which it was. I think I also read Moro is one of the earliest. Is that the startle? It might be another way to research, looking for one that might be lynch pin. 

This article is saying there's both a startle reflex (which can activate with acoustic stimuli over 80dB and is apparently normal) vs. the moro reflex startling (commonly retained in CP and more severe neurological issues, the article says). The falling backward test they describe is something the PT did with my dd, and indeed it set it off iirc. 

So I know for one of your kids the reflex work was awful. I'm just saying you could examine what happened critically. If they were working on multiple reflexes, maybe try only *one* and pick a lynch pin. Maybe they didn't even work on Moro? For my dd, the only way to keep it comfortable (because working on them is very intense) is to do significant sensory afterward, like piles of weight, compression clothing during the exercises, etc. She basically couldn't get through it with college going, sigh.

Also an SNRI might help.

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, Terabith said:

College writing and psychology are each three credits.  Have pondered adding a three credit math.  That would be a max of nine credits.   She’s currently signed up for six credits.  Community college has no pe classes, so yoga or tai chi wouldn’t work.  The Y has yoga, but you have to be 18, and the noise level in the Y per se is overwhelming.

Art lessons are one hour once every week to two weeks.  No homework.  Spanish tutoring is an average of once a week for about 90 minutes.  Occasional homework of about 15 minutes.  Possible recreational drama class an hour once a week.  She is doing no homeschool work.  Nobody will accept a volunteer under 18, which is frustrating.  My goal honestly is not academics; it’s getting her out of the house, interaction with people, and giving her constructive things to do and think about outside of her head.  A job would be fine for that purpose, too.

Getting her to exercise is really hard given sound levels at the Y and gym.  Outside is unpleasant and windy, and the sound of wind is a particular trigger.  Frankly, we’re doing the most inefficient grocery shopping anyone could possibly do pretty much every day because I can generally use it as a way to get her out of the house and moving and the grocery store is a good place to get a couple thousand steps.   I am pretty sure she thinks I’m an idiot who can never remember the shopping list from day to day and I only remember what we needed after we passed that aisle three aisles ago.  

The mall at Christmas is a complete nonstarter in terms of noise and crowds.  

Going from can' get out of bed to 9 credits is a huge step. Way huge. 

What about volunteering at the library? Or just going there daily to read?

[ktgrok]

Is the startle thing new? Because this is sounding more and more like your thought of PTSD is accurate. 

As for not being able to go outside because of the noise of the wind, can she wear headphones? Getting out for a walk or even just sitting outside at a cafe reading would be helpful, and the headphones would block the sound. 

 

[Terabith]

She's the one who doing all the reflex work was awful for, yeah.  But that's a good idea, to work on the Moro.  I'll see if I can find a good YouTube on just that one.  I've tried to get her an OT, but literally nobody does sensory and nobody will look at teens.  It's awful and very frustrating.  But just Moro, maybe she'd do.  I'll see if I can get my husband to buy in.  I honestly really can't get her to do ANYTHING; she'll do a lot more for my husband.  It's actually really hard on him right now, because she's waking him up at 4 am to talk and stuff.  Heck, if the work involves falling backwards, I might not be able to do that.  I don't jump at sounds or anything, but I'm pretty afraid of falling after a couple of bad falls where I got really hurt over the years.  Mike does aikido, so he falls recreationally....

SNRI might help.  We'll see what the psychiatrist says, but my concern is that the zoloft at 100 mg has helped significantly, just not ENOUGH.  Do we do the weaning off of it, having nothing in her system wash out, and then start over with a SNRI, which then has to build up for 6-8 weeks?  That's a 3 month period minimum to go from better to nothing all over again to decide if this is better than just the SSRI.  I don't know that we can go through a couple more months of her not sleeping at night and suicidal so US not sleeping at night again.  It might be better.  But I had a bad response to SNRIs years ago....  I know they're saying that gene test is not really supported, but I'm really hesitant to wash out what's helping, even if it's not helping enough, for the possibility of something maybe helping more, but also maybe having a bad reaction.  

[ktgrok]

Would she be willing to do some akido with your husband? Or would he be willing to do some Tai Chi with her? Obviously it isn't what he's used to but would be good for her, and since she will respond better to him, might be worth it?

She's so smart - have you flat out told her that you don't care about the credits/grades, you are just trying to find a way for her to interact with people? And ask her which way she prefers, out of a list? 

Have you maybe researched together ways to help her depression and anxiety? Put her brain on the job, if she's able to think that well at this point? If she's not, I'd not be talking about school at all. 

edited to add:

Around here Akido places are small and close knit - if DH can get her doing it would she be able to go to the Akido school and help out there a bit, or hang out or something?

Edited December 16, 2019 by Ktgrok

[ktgrok]

As for finding volunteer jobs for under 18 try Hands On (your city name). So for instance here I'd go to www.handsonorlando.com. They let you filter volunteer opportunities by age, how long they are, etc. That's how we found the ones I had my DS pick from. 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

Is the startle thing new? Because this is sounding more and more like your thought of PTSD is accurate. 

As for not being able to go outside because of the noise of the wind, can she wear headphones? Getting out for a walk or even just sitting outside at a cafe reading would be helpful, and the headphones would block the sound. 

 

Startle thing is new, yes.  I mean, she had pretty bad sensory stuff (including startle) as a toddler, but it was chilled and not an issue till she started at the high school.  Not obvious even until this year.  But the stuff that's bothering her, like the sound of the wind, it's the same stuff she had huge issues for as a toddler.  I doubt she remembered all the details of what bothered her then.  We did a ton of OT from 18 months to like 3.5, and then I kept up a pretty rich sensory diet till age 9 ish, when she started school.  I just ran it as part of our school day, but it was pretty significant, like 3 hours of outside play, including an hour of focused sensory integration activities.  But, physically can't do same kinds of stuff we did when she was little now (swinging in a blanket, even recreational gymnastics).  Swimming is great but between noise of a pool and dysphoria, I can't get her in a pool.  I suspect weights would be good, but again....noise.  

We're using noise canceling headphones a LOT.  Have spent a small fortune on different ones, including buds that are more subtle for things like going to the mall.  They help with things like the neighbors mowing the lawn but not really things that are triggery.  She can handle coffee shops and most restaurants.  She is getting out of bed, but getting out of bed on MY schedule when I want her to is the different story.  And now I think she has the flu, sigh.  I was sick for about five days with what I thought was a weird stomach bug with fever and body aches.  Cat has been sick for like eight days and is really much sicker than I was.  Anna had same symptoms yesterday and is running a fever.  

She has tried doing aikido with my husband a couple times.  She didn't love the noise of people falling and shouting when they fell.  She also got an eyebrow ring, which she's super excited about, but can't take it out for eight weeks, and that's a no-no for aikido.  Mike's talked about getting some mats and practicing with her at home.  She didn't object to the movement, but she didn't like the noise; it's all middle aged people up, which was a bit uncomfortable; the room was really hot and she almost passed out one day, and one of the two days is Saturday morning, which is never in a million years going to be a great time for her.  I think doing stuff at home is probably the best bet.  

Oh yeah, we've definitely talked about how we're not concerned about the school stuff for the sake of school but social, getting out of her head, having a goal, an outside reason to get up.  I know it's a lot easier for me to keep myself on a regular schedule when I have somewhere I have to be at a certain time most days of the week.  I've always struggled with that dynamic and signed up for something to give me external structure when I've been a stay at home mom.  We talk about it a lot.  She's never done the college classes, but she's intrigued and thinks it might be a level of engagement she could handle.  She wants to visit the small private school, and she knows they won't consider her if she hasn't done anything for the year.  I think in the long run that has the potential to be the best fit, because it's a whole school of geeky kids, but it's only 60 kids total, so it doesn't have the same super large classes/ loud/ out of control dynamic that the public high school did.  Again, not because of the academics, but because of the social and emotional engagement.  But in order to get there, she has to show some ability to them and to us to handle some outside demands.  She's just inconsistent.  Some days she muses, "I should get a job."  But when I make suggestions of where, she backs down.  I think school, even school at a college, feels more in her comfort zone than a job right now, because it's more familiar.  But yeah, have definitely done lots of presenting of options.  The community college was her best choice of different things we suggested.  I figure the worst case scenario is we withdraw her before the drop date if she isn't handling it.  We lose some money, but not all that much money.  I'm also trying to preserve the most options for goals that she has had in the past.  Like.....a new plan would be totally fine.  But the last time she HAD a goal, it involved going away to college, majoring in geology, and singing in a choir.   The fact that she's unwilling to sing is honestly what makes me saddest about all this.  I suggested that she go back to the high school just for choir (which is totally an option; she could do like 3 credits there in electives).  She loved the choir teacher and she adored her.  I even suggested we go join them when they went Christmas caroling awhile back, but she doesn't want to face anyone.  She feels ashamed of just abandoning them and embarrassed.  And the local community kid's choir is super crazy intense.  I get why she doesn't want to audition for that, because she has friends in it, but she's not sure she has the skills to make it through the audition.  And I'm not sure she does, either.  It involves a music theory test, lots of sight reading, learning harmony for a song in another language after hearing it no more than twice while someone else is singing the melody next to you.  It's really high level stuff.  And she's super anti church, including choirs, right now.  Catholic school apparently burned her out on religion, and she's going through her adamant atheism phase.  

[Terabith]

I'm also coming at this from maybe a different place than most people.  I have had severe depression, severe anxiety, and PTSD since I was seven.  I was diagnosed and medicated in college, but I'm coming at this from the point of view that this isn't something necessarily that she's going to "get over" but that she might need to learn to live with as a chronic condition.  I mean, it would be awesome if this is a blip and she gets the right meds and goes into remission.  That would be best case scenario.  But that hasn't been my experience.  There are times that are better and times that are worse, but you have to learn to keep doing things even when they're at their worst.  I've done multiple rounds of hospitalizations, because they won't adjust my meds outpatient.  I do counseling; I get exercise: I do the self care.  And sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes you have to just do stuff anyway.  Sometimes you do the bare minimum because it's all you can do; sometimes you can do more.  

Catherine, who has been medicated since age five and whose SEVERE anxiety was evident from birth says that she thinks she has the better deal, because she learned how to deal with this back when she was really little.  Whereas Anna went along with normal mental health and then crashed.  It's too early to know yet if this is a situation where it's like being sick and you recover or if it's more like having diabetes and you have to learn to live with it as the new normal.  I suspect given genetics that this is new normal.  

[Terabith]

So, for Moro reflex, right arm over left arm and right leg over left leg?

[Pen]

Have you spoken with the little school’s admissions people?

 

[Pen]

Has your dd had a general physical health check? 

 

[Pen]

20 hours ago, Terabith said:

Oh gosh....  No, my husband's musing about her ability to live independently has NOTHING to do with PSAT scores or when or if she takes calculus or if she ever does another academic endeavor in her life. 

 

But the pressure to do well, your disappointment etc when her 10th grade PSAT is not as stellar as you wish, your idea that 2 CC classes isn’t rigorous etc etc may be contributing very significantly to her mental health problems.  

Your own depression may contribute to her having problems and also to your seeing the world as more bleak than others may see it.  Perhaps your husband is this way too. 

 

20 hours ago, Terabith said:

Frankly, she's got enough academics to function just fine now.  She could walk into any mid level liberal arts college in the country and do fine.  Academics aren't even on the list.  No, the concern is entirely mental health based.  It's based more on how much energy it takes us to get her out of bed, to eat, to leave the house, that sort of stuff.  How much time she spends crying and panicking.  

She doesn't really have any goals.  That's, in my opinion, the biggest hurdle.  She's not fighting or working towards anything.  

The small high school is really pretty affordable.  We could do it.  It's on a par with the cost of community college.  

Exercise, sunshine, etc would all be excellent, but we can't get her to do those things.  We can barely get her to eat any food, let alone maximal nutrition.  Haven't found anyone in our city who does DBT, and I've looked.  

 

Imo, you need to start with these basics.  She’s smart enough to understand that they are important.  

No one can be healthy without the basics. 

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

But the pressure to do well, your disappointment etc when her 10th grade PSAT is not as stellar as you wish, your idea that 2 CC classes isn’t rigorous etc etc may be contributing very significantly to her mental health problems.  

Bingo. Like not meaning to be rough, but we were there. I sent dd into DE saying things were easy (because they were easy for ME), and she got in there and had a radically different experience. She has survived, but your dc is still very young. Honestly, you would be well advised to start with ONE class this coming semester, and do everything else a different way. Those CC class grades have permanent consequences. She could have issues with the noise, her mental health, the vibe on campus (my dd can feel everyone's anxiety, I kid you not). She could have EF issues. She will probably have a learning curve with learning how to use a syllabus, how to access services, how to problem solve, how to find good sections and good professors.

I got the advice from someone to register for several things and tell your dc you assume they'll DROP something. DROPPING is another mental health skill.

And I hope whatever your dd signs up for goes really, really well! She sounds super bright!! But those are pitfalls she could have. They could be totally unrelated to the classes and things intrinsic to her, things she doesn't realize yet because she hasn't tried herself in those situations to know what happens. It's a reason to step in cautiously.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

  I was diagnosed and medicated in college, but I'm coming at this from the point of view that this isn't something necessarily that she's going to "get over" but that she might need to learn to live with as a chronic condition. 

It sounds like you're a little more functional than your kids. I've seen this in our family, where one parent with the condition will be like oh they just need to tough it out. The challenge is thinking through the dc as an individual and backing up and saying ok what do they need. Not what worked for me, but what will they need. It might be different.

21 hours ago, Terabith said:

We can barely get her to eat any food, let alone maximal nutrition. 

That sounds like a recipe for disaster on top of 3 college classes.

I'm sorry it's hard. It does sound very hard. I wish there was some obvious like oh do this and it gets better answer. You've been digging in, looking for pieces, you're trying meds. Fwiw, while cognitive strategies are necessary, I think it's really hard to use them when your body is a screaming mess due to chemistry. Sigh.

What is she saying she needs?

[Pen]

Does the cc have any class that would get her any of the needed basics? An outdoor Tai Chi class? Beginning outdoor Tennis?  (For exercise and time out doors both).  Or at least an indoor exercise class.  Or a cooking class?   Or a singing class? Or a drama/acting class? 

Just one class to start and one that isn’t academic seems like it might be a hard enough transition to make from barely out of bed.

 

[ktgrok]

32 minutes ago, Pen said:

Does the cc have any class that would get her any of the needed basics? An outdoor Tai Chi class? Beginning outdoor Tennis?  (For exercise and time out doors both).  Or at least an indoor exercise class.  Or a cooking class?   Or a singing class? Or a drama/acting class? 

Just one class to start and one that isn’t academic seems like it might be a hard enough transition to make from barely out of bed.

 

This. 

All energies should go to self care things like sunshine, food, vitamins, exercise, light therapy if she's worse in the winter, etc etc. Then when those are in place, then academics. 

And if she has a choir to go back to but is just anxious about showing up after having been gone so long, I'd hit that issue hard with therapy. Because that is going to happen over and over and over again if she has ongoing mental health issues. My ex would go to college, do well, miss a few classes, the have anxiety about going back after missing and fail the semester. Over and over and over again. Learning to go back, and find out that hey, it's not really a big deal, would be a huge life skill, and would give her a social outlet back. 

[Pen]

This may be very different in different places.  Our area definitely has volunteer opportunities for kids under 18.  

Including groups specific to kids like junior Search and Rescue via sheriff dept, Civil Air Patrol, teen library helpers, teen groups associated with lodge type organizations who pick up roadside trash...

[SanDiegoMom]

On 12/12/2019 at 5:46 PM, Pen said:

For you mostly (though she might find these useful too): 

The Upward Spiral Workbook: A Practical Neuroscience Program for Reversing the Course of Depression (A New Harbinger Self-Help Workbook) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07J2BJKYY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_W-R8DbB104ZQG

 

Happiness Is a Choice https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KABDY8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_CmS8Db4C89PJ0

oh my gosh, my daughter just took a neuroscience class from the author of the first book this fall! She LOVED the class and learned so much.  I got bogged down in the actual book and haven't finished yet.  

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

oh my gosh, my daughter just took a neuroscience class from the author of the first book this fall! She LOVED the class and learned so much.  I got bogged down in the actual book and haven't finished yet.  

 

Not sure you have to finish.  Point seems to be that even one small step that’s good for the particular person, consistently applied can start an upward spiral. 

A lot like Atomic Habits applies to depression recovery

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

Point seems to be that even one small step that’s good for the particular person, consistently applied can start an upward spiral. 

Like Flylady, haha

[Terabith]

The community college has no pe classes and no fine arts classes beyond drawing.  

The choir would be a pain in the butt to go to, because it's at the public school, and it would require enrolling for an elective.  Which they're allowed to do but don't WANT to do.  So if she would have to be pretty gung ho to do it.  

[PeterPan]

You need a sailboat.

[Terabith]

We've taken her to the doctor for physical check ups several times.  She's had thyroid, vitamin D, looked at.  Right now she has the flu or some very flu like bug.  

[Terabith]

Just now, PeterPan said:

You need a sailboat.

I mean....limited utility in a valley surrounded by mountains.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I mean....limited utility in a valley surrounded by mountains.

Isn't that why you need one? LOL A change of location, something different, a little adventure. 

Sometimes a little adventure creates it's own momentum. It's just finding the right amount of adventure, an amount they can handle. A driving trip, camping, fly to Bermuda and live on a boat for a month, a cruise. A little adventure. And call it school. 

I don't know, I am just finding in my family that they have a little Tookishness and a lot of anxiety, and the two sort of combat each other and grind everything down. And yet a little adventure makes them ready to go back to normal. 

Whatever. It's just a way different option. I wish I had traveled more with my dd. We did a little, but I'm doing more with my ds. And you're running out of time to do it, kwim? Like just take her somewhere. Not too expensive or too hard or too overthought. It's a fresh way to get over hurdles, and then they're like oh I did that so I could probably get over my anxiety about this other thing, kwim? Momentum.