When you learn about marital separation

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Cindy in FL. said:

Idk. It makes me think of the wedding ceremonies that I’ve been a part of, and the officiant saying something along the lines of “in front of God and these witnesses”. Part of that, I believe, is that the bride and groom are entering into a covenant, and those in attendance witness that and, therefore, in a sense, help to hold them accountable to what the promised in their vows. I think it’s a very serious matter. Now, that’s not to say that I think everyone in attendance should stick their oar in at any given moment, but neither do I think that it is completely off limits for certain people to try to help.

Thank you for articulating this. This is a Christian marriage and I do feel something like that; we were witnesses to their union and I feel it should be something we support. 

Part of why this feels like a struggle to me is, I think, because I grew up in such an avoidance-based family culture. There have been other divorces, like with my siblings, but I never said boo about it and I feel like I did nothing to support staying together.  I guess I don’t know what normal is, AFA talking, helping, etc. 

I also want to say this: I don’t have a nosy or gossipy bone in my body. I am not ever inclined to find out something so I can be “in the know.” I am coming entirely from a place of wanting to help if I can at all. 

I offered some hand-me-downs recently and the reply I got seemed curt and a little weird. Well, now I think that’s why the response was curt. The party I offered it to may have been thinking, “well, I don’t know when I’ll see you now, and this is not a priority for me.” I don’t know if I should just keep the things in the improbable event I can give them, or just forget about it because this is probably moot now.

[Happy2BaMom]

11 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Unless I was a licensed marital counselor I would not try to intervene in someone else’s marriage. 

 

I cannot like this enough. Divorce is such a painful, personal experience & I know of very few families (if any) where the members involved have the wisdom (or control) to listen & reflect before offering advice or pushing their own narrative (unless they are asked). So. Not. Helpful.

I've been happily married nearly 20 years and (of course) we have dozens of married couples as friends and extended family. There's only two things I've learned from all that experience:

1) When it comes to describing how to have a successful marriage, I am more perplexed now than when I first married ;  *AND*

2) I can never, ever understand what is really going on in anyone else's marriage. There is *so* much that happens behind closed doors that will never be known, even with information.

 

(P.S. I share your concern about the kid(s), though. Divorce really doesn't help them. However, unless the couple are complete psychopaths, they are already very much feeling the weight of this. Every divorced person I've ever known has really agonized over the impact on the children.)

Edited November 22, 2019 by Happy2BaMom

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

ETA  I'm also surprised here by how many posts assume cheating was involved if there is a divorce?  I know plenty of people who have divorced and the vast majority didn't involve cheating.  Even the cases I know where cheating was involved, the situation was complex for other reasons.  Not to ever justify cheating.  I just think divorce was inevitable prior to cheating.  It was like forcing the break on one side.

me too.  while statistically cheating is up there - so is financial disagreements.  (e.g. one spends like it grows on trees, and the other person feels forced to protect themselves.)  depending upon source for the list - they will trade places back and forth.

Abuse/addiction isn't far behind either.

 

53 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

 
If rumor is floating around and you want to end it, you can tell the rumor weed, "If that's the case, then it's Hortense and Mortimer's story to tell, not yours."  

I do so love your names.  reminds me of Miss Manners.

Edited November 22, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, Quill said:

Thank you for articulating this. This is a Christian marriage and I do feel something like that; we were witnesses to their union and I feel it should be something we support. 

Part of why this feels like a struggle to me is, I think, because I grew up in such an avoidance-based family culture. There have been other divorces, like with my siblings, but I never said boo about it and I feel like I did nothing to support staying together.  I guess I don’t know what normal is, AFA talking, helping, etc. 

I also want to say this: I don’t have a nosy or gossipy bone in my body. I am not ever inclined to find out something so I can be “in the know.” I am coming entirely from a place of wanting to help if I can at all. 

I offered some hand-me-downs recently and the reply I got seemed curt and a little weird. Well, now I think that’s why the response was curt. The party I offered it to may have been thinking, “well, I don’t know when I’ll see you now, and this is not a priority for me.” I don’t know if I should just keep the things in the improbable event I can give them, or just forget about it because this is probably moot now.

This is really what it is to me too.  I want to be a friend of marriage.  So I don't think I would be a 'friend' of a marriage when someone close to me separates and I just shrug and say, 'their business.'  I mean, how far do we take that?  When we see family or friends in pain or in need do we just shrug and say 'their business, not mine.'  I agree no one knows what goes on in a marriage...and sometimes a marriage can't be saved...but sometimes one or both in a marriage really do need a friend of the marriage.  I mean obviously if your efforts or interest is rejected you have to accept that.  But I would not ignore such a serious thing.  

[marbel]

29 minutes ago, Quill said:

Thank you for articulating this. This is a Christian marriage and I do feel something like that; we were witnesses to their union and I feel it should be something we support. 

Part of why this feels like a struggle to me is, I think, because I grew up in such an avoidance-based family culture. There have been other divorces, like with my siblings, but I never said boo about it and I feel like I did nothing to support staying together.  I guess I don’t know what normal is, AFA talking, helping, etc. 

I also want to say this: I don’t have a nosy or gossipy bone in my body. I am not ever inclined to find out something so I can be “in the know.” I am coming entirely from a place of wanting to help if I can at all. 

I offered some hand-me-downs recently and the reply I got seemed curt and a little weird. Well, now I think that’s why the response was curt. The party I offered it to may have been thinking, “well, I don’t know when I’ll see you now, and this is not a priority for me.” I don’t know if I should just keep the things in the improbable event I can give them, or just forget about it because this is probably moot now.

I think I get you on this. It is hard. I can't imagine seeing a child of mine going through a divorce and not being devastated and wanting to help them in any way I could. Either to get out, if I could see it was a bad/damaging marriage, or help keep it together. 

Now that I am thinking about this, I remember how my parents talked about my brother's divorce. They were so upset over it, particularly for their grandchildren. Maybe they were more upset about that divorce than my own, since my marriage was short and produced no offspring. OTOH, my sister's divorce was a bit of a relief as her husband was abusive.  I do remember my mother mourning the fact that all her kids were divorced, wondering what had she done wrong that this occurred. 

In any case, I think people are reading different things into your word "intervene." I don't think you mean swooping in to fix everything. I think you mean help in any way you can rather than standing by helplessly. The thing is, unless you are very close and the person confides in you, there is nothing you can do. 

But anyway, re: the bolded, I don't believe there is a "normal" in how to deal with this stuff. Because every marriage and every divorce are different. By the time I left mine, I was done and there was no point in anyone trying to support us staying together. But it had been a mistake from the start. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by marbel

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Hmm ... I wouldn't make this stereotype about the Midwest at least.  That would not be a norm in my circles or in anyone I know and I've lived in the upper midwest my entire life.  I definitely feel it's rude.  My parents taught me from birth nosing into someone's business or giving people unsolicited advice or judgment is rude.  If someone opens up to you, that's a whole different matter.

I have a niece who has lived separate from her "husband" for years.  I have no idea what that is about.  I thought it would eventually come out a a family meet up.  Nope.  Still don't know.  Still none of my business.  
 

ETA  I'm also surprised here by how many posts assume cheating was involved if there is a divorce?  I know plenty of people who have divorced and the vast majority didn't involve cheating.  Even the cases I know where cheating was involved, the situation was complex for other reasons.  Not to ever justify cheating.  I just think divorce was inevitable prior to cheating.  It was like forcing the break on one side.

Ah, the good ole' exit affair.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, marbel said:

I think I get you on this. It is hard. I can't imagine seeing a child of mine going through a divorce and not being devastated and wanting to help them in any way I could. Either to get out, if I could see it was a bad/damaging marriage, or help keep it together. 

Now that I am thinking about this, I remember how my parents talked about my brother's divorce. They were so upset over it, particularly for their grandchildren. Maybe they were more upset about that divorce than my own, since my marriage was short and produced no offspring. OTOH, my sister's divorce was a bit of a relief as her husband was abusive.  I do remember my mother mourning the fact that all her kids were divorced, wondering what had she done wrong that this occurred. (And I am the only one of 3 to remarry.) 

In any case, I think people are reading different things into your word "intervene." I don't think you mean swooping in to fix everything. I think you mean help in any way you can rather than standing by helplessly. The thing is, unless you are very close and the person confides in you, there is nothing you can do. 

But anyway, re: the bolded, I don't believe there is a "normal" in how to deal with this stuff. Because every marriage and every divorce are different. By the time I left mine, I was done and there was no point in anyone trying to support us staying together. But it had been a mistake from the start. 

And every culture and family is different too.  I remember when I was divorcing my now XH, my best friend's husband called now XH and did everything in his power to get him to do something to try to stop it.  My friend felt it was too late as far as I was concerned....but the truth is, if my XH had done something to show he was serious about change and serious about commitment to our family and marriage I could have been persuaded to work it out.  He was too deep in his affair and just shrugged and said, 'I can't stop Scarlett from divorcing me.'   But I deeply admire my friend's husband (well, he is my friend too) for making that effort because he knew and knows how hard it is to have your kids FOO destroyed.  

[Katy]

The Christian marriage is a valid thing, obviously not a factor in every family.  I don't think of it as nosiness either.  My family is pretty open, on the verge of oversharing.  We're likely to hear about it before a decision is made if there's trouble.  Not because of family gossip, but because if you get together multiple times a year and people talk about what's going on with them it comes up.  Heck, if we talk about a movie we liked it's likely to segue into personal interpretations of the themes.

And I wasn't assuming it was cheating, it was just an observation about my family.  Everyone in my generation or younger whose marriage (or even a very LTR) broke up was due to cheating.  And we all thought the person's SO was a jerk from long before they committed to each other.  Even in my parent's generation it was all either cheating or addiction.  Since addiction is likely to be obvious before it ends a marriage, cheating is more likely in anything that seems sudden.

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

This is really what it is to me too.  I want to be a friend of marriage.  So I don't think I would be a 'friend' of a marriage when someone close to me separates and I just shrug and say, 'their business.'  I mean, how far do we take that?  When we see family or friends in pain or in need do we just shrug and say 'their business, not mine.'  I agree no one knows what goes on in a marriage...and sometimes a marriage can't be saved...but sometimes one or both in a marriage really do need a friend of the marriage.  I mean obviously if your efforts or interest is rejected you have to accept that.  But I would not ignore such a serious thing.  

I think that can be done in ways that don't intrude though. I mean, realistically, when someone separates or divorces, if all parties who witnessed their union came to them for explanations and advice, that would be totally overwhelming at a time when most people aren't up for it.

So just offering "If you want to talk, I'll listen. If you want objective advice, I can try to provide that too. " might be more helpful than questions, or whatever. There's a fine line between opening a door into which someone can walk and sticking your nose into situations that you don't understand. 

It must be done cautiously. 

Actually, Scarlett, I would think if you yourself were in this kind of a situation, your advice would be very helpful. Because you have been through divorce, you have seen what it does to wives and children long term.. Your perspective would be very valuable because you've seen the good the bad and the ugly, and you still love marriage, still want people to stay married. I;d think that you could provide a very balanced perspective with lots of credibility because of what you;ve been through. Those of us who haven't been through it may know a lot of stuff just by virtue of watching others, but we don't have the firsthand experience of what it feels like.

I know that text is bashed as impersonal, but in cases like separation or divorce, it is nice to be able to send a text that says, "I heard about you and your dh. I know this is hard. If you need something I'm here." 

We went through a really rotten time with one of our kids, (wasn't a divorce situation ) and I liked it when people texted me that kind of thing. So I didn't have to wonder "Do they know?" That's the whole elephant in the room awkwardness. Not knowing who knows what and what they know and how much to share.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

I think that can be done in ways that don't intrude though. I mean, realistically, when someone separates or divorces, if all parties who witnessed their union came to them for explanations and advice, that would be totally overwhelming at a time when most people aren't up for it.

So just offering "If you want to talk, I'll listen. If you want objective advice, I can try to provide that too. " might be more helpful than questions, or whatever. There's a fine line between opening a door into which someone can walk and sticking your nose into situations that you don't understand. 

It must be done cautiously. 

Actually, Scarlett, I would think if you yourself were in this kind of a situation, your advice would be very helpful. Because you have been through divorce, you have seen what it does to wives and children long term.. Your perspective would be very valuable because you've seen the good the bad and the ugly, and you still love marriage, still want people to stay married. I;d think that you could provide a very balanced perspective with lots of credibility because of what you;ve been through. Those of us who haven't been through it may know a lot of stuff just by virtue of watching others, but we don't have the firsthand experience of what it feels like.

I know that text is bashed as impersonal, but in cases like separation or divorce, it is nice to be able to send a text that says, "I heard about you and your dh. I know this is hard. If you need something I'm here." 

We went through a really rotten time with one of our kids, (wasn't a divorce situation ) and I liked it when people texted me that kind of thing. So I didn't have to wonder "Do they know?" That's the whole elephant in the room awkwardness. Not knowing who knows what and what they know and how much to share.

Thank you.  Very kind of you.  

I got texts too when my big elephant in the room issue with ds19 happened and I did appreciate it.  I couldn't talk without crying so text was good.  

[OH_Homeschooler]

13 hours ago, Katy said:

Am I the only person whose family culture would be to respond with, "Whoa!  What happened?"

Then the parent or whoever would give a full (if brief) explanation.  "He's cheating," is most typical.

Followed by, "I never liked him."

 

My guess is the posters from the midwest or the south will ask, and those from other areas would feel it's rude.

 

(I'm from the midwest)

I had an abrupt separation last year. I called my mom to explain what was going on. I specifically asked her to tell my siblings and to fill them in on the details. I assume she did that with her pwn siblings as well, so that they would get the news and understand what was going on before I was face-to-face with them and I would have to awkwardly explain why my husband wasn't at a family event or whatever. I'm sure my aunts also told my cousins, etc. 

I would expect that an aunt would ask the separated person's parent/their own sibling for clarification. If one of my aunts point-blank asked me what happened I would have told them but I probably would have cried a lot, because talking about it does that to me. 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by OH_Homeschooler

[Selkie]

So much of it just depends on the relationship and level of closeness. Quill said in her first post that she thinks the relative would want her to mind her own business, which is why I don't think asking or giving advice is a good idea. It would be different if the person was openly wanting to talk about it and looking for guidance or support.

[Aura]

I'm fixing to head out the door (just waiting on something to download) but I guess I would handle things a bit differently than most. I'd ask, in a thoughtful and planned-ahead way. In this case, when I had the chance and it was just the recently divorced and myself, I would ask something along the lines of: "I just found out about your divorce. Is there anything I should know so I don't stick my foot in my mouth or that you'd just like to share?" This clears the air, lets them share (or not!) as much as they'd to share, and lets you know how to proceed. And then after they finished, I'd end it openly: "I'm here if you need me." If a big family event is coming up and I wouldn't see them in person until then, then I'd call or message them ahead of time. "I just wanted to make sure I didn't do anything to make you uncomfortable at Thanksgiving." Or something like that.

The point of asking is not to satisfy my curiosity. It's to put the other person at ease. Not addressing the elephant in the room rarely does that.

[katilac]

16 hours ago, Katy said:

Am I the only person whose family culture would be to respond with, "Whoa!  What happened?"

Then the parent or whoever would give a full (if brief) explanation. 

Yes, I would ask the parent if they told me about it. I think that's very different from asking the actual person in the midst of a separation, "Whoa! What happened?" 

And while I would ask, that's not the wording I'd use even with my sister or brother, because they would be upset about it. 

9 hours ago, Quill said:

Yeah, I realize this. My feeling that it’s sudden is based on some long-range things they were doing. Those don’t seem to me like the plans one makes if it’s a rocky marriage. 

Other posters have said this already, but people definitely do this. 

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This is really what it is to me too.  I want to be a friend of marriage.  So I don't think I would be a 'friend' of a marriage when someone close to me separates and I just shrug and say, 'their business.'  I mean, how far do we take that?  When we see family or friends in pain or in need do we just shrug and say 'their business, not mine.'  I agree no one knows what goes on in a marriage...and sometimes a marriage can't be saved...but sometimes one or both in a marriage really do need a friend of the marriage.  I mean obviously if your efforts or interest is rejected you have to accept that.  But I would not ignore such a serious thing.  

I'm wondering if people are talking past each other to a certain extent? What would this look like to you? To me, saying, "I'm so sorry. I'm here for you, is there anything I can do? Do you want to talk?" is not shrugging and ignoring it. Would you go beyond that if they didn't want to talk? What would you say? 

 

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, katilac said:

Yes, I would ask the parent if they told me about it. I think that's very different from asking the actual person in the midst of a separation, "Whoa! What happened?" 

And while I would ask, that's not the wording I'd use even with my sister or brother, because they would be upset about it. 

Other posters have said this already, but people definitely do this. 

I'm wondering if people are talking past each other to a certain extent? What would this look like to you? To me, saying, "I'm so sorry. I'm here for you, is there anything I can do? Do you want to talk?" is not shrugging and ignoring it. Would you go beyond that if they didn't want to talk? What would you say? 

 

My response was more to the many people on this thread who were saying it was just  none of anyone's business.  But to your question......depending on my relationship I might say a few things even if my loved one or friend was not in the chatting mood.  But  yes, if people don't want to discuss or hear my thoughts I have to respect that.  

[Arcadia]

One issue with marital separation or divorce is that my side of the family doesn’t want to appear to be taking sides or debating who has “more responsibility” towards the marital breakup. So we listen when they talk and babysit when asked.

If you have space and you think it would benefit the relative, I would keep the hand me downs for the person. I am guessing the person you asked married into the family and probably felt awkward. My uncle and his ex-wife had a very amicable divorce (my uncle has finance and time management issues) and she didn’t mind us giving hand me downs and presents to her and their child. 

[katilac]

35 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

My response was more to the many people on this thread who were saying it was just  none of anyone's business.  But to your question......depending on my relationship I might say a few things even if my loved one or friend was not in the chatting mood.   

But what might you say, beyond I'm here for you, please let me know if you want to talk or if I can help? It's a serious question; I can't think of what I might say beyond that. 

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, katilac said:

But what might you say, beyond I'm here for you, please let me know if you want to talk or if I can help? It's a serious question; I can't think of what I might say beyond that. 

Oh, well, the things I would say would be specific to my life and the life of my loved ones....principles of getting along, my own experience of a failed marriage....how my child was affected.  

[katilac]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Oh, well, the things I would say would be specific to my life and the life of my loved ones....principles of getting along, my own experience of a failed marriage....how my child was affected.  

Okay, we definitely differ on some of these. If someone tells me they are separated or getting divorced, I would never in a million years bring up that it's hard on the kids. Because I don't know anyone who thinks it's a cakewalk for the kids, and I think it's insulting to imply otherwise. 

Now, if they asked me for specific opinions, yes: Do you think divorce is always harder on the kids than staying together? Do you think kids always need therapy? I mean, yeah, if they're specifically asking those things, I'd probably weigh in, with the caveat that every situation is different. But if I tell my nephew I'm so sorry, Aunt Katilac is here if you want to talk and he responds Thanks, I'll keep that in mind . . . well, I'm not going to say, remember your cousin's kids had a really hard time with the divorce. 

I truly can't imagine bringing up principles of getting along to someone who didn't ask or begin a conversation, likewise my own experience of a failed marriage other than I know how hard it can be, let me know if you need advice about a lawyer, lol. Because what does that look like? 

Aunt Katilac, I wanted you to know that X and I are separated. 

I'm so sorry. I'm always here for you, let me know if you want to talk. 

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. 

The key to a good marriage is making time for each other! dh and I have a date night every Tuesday and a list of topics that we . . . 

Um, yeah, thanks, gotta go! 

I'm just having a hard time picturing how that looks in real time, when they thank you for being available to talk but don't take you up on it. I mean, you just launch into it anyway? 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by katilac

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, katilac said:

Okay, we definitely differ on some of these. If someone tells me they are separated or getting divorced, I would never in a million years bring up that it's hard on the kids. Because I don't know anyone who thinks it's a cakewalk for the kids, and I think it's insulting to imply otherwise. 

Now, if they asked me for specific opinions, yes: Do you think divorce is always harder on the kids than staying together? Do you think kids always need therapy? I mean, yeah, if they're specifically asking those things, I'd probably weigh in, with the caveat that every situation is different. But if I tell my nephew I'm so sorry, Aunt Katilac is here if you want to talk and he responds Thanks, I'll keep that in mind . . . well, I'm not going to say, remember your cousin's kids had a really hard time with the divorce. 

I truly can't imagine bringing up principles of getting along to someone who didn't ask or begin a conversation, likewise my own experience of a failed marriage other than I know how hard it can be, let me know if you need advice about a lawyer, lol. Because what does that look like? 

Aunt Katilac, I wanted you to know that X and I are separated. 

I'm so sorry. I'm always here for you, let me know if you want to talk. 

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. 

The key to a good marriage is making time for each other! dh and I have a date night every Tuesday and a list of topics that we . . . 

Um, yeah, thanks, gotta go! 

I'm just having a hard time picturing how that looks in real time, when they thank you for being available to talk but don't take you up on it. I mean, you just launch into it anyway? 

 

 

Because a separation is not yet a divorce.  And I would encourage almost everyone to do whatever they can to make a marriage work.  And as I mentioned earlier, people deep in the muck don't always think these things through clearly. I wouldn't of course have that sort of conversations with just any acquaintance....but for instance, my friend's dh who spoke to my now XH and  begged him to try and save the marriage.....friend told now XH he would deeply regret this...(turns out he was right about that)....so you think friend shouldn't have tried to talk to XH?

Edited to add--I think a lot of this will depend on if there is a big thing that one person is at fault for that is causing the divorce (not to say one person is perfect).  I wouldn't advise an abused woman or man to stay in a marriage for the children's sake.   But I would advise a cheating man or woman to get it together and stop the bad behavior and see if they can convince their mate to forgive them and try.  So, again, so many different circumstances, cultures and family dynamics.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Scarlett

[Meriwether]

I would probably talk to any of my sister's kids about something so big in their lives. Our families do not have a culture of divorce. It would be a big deal. We talk about all kinds of things in our family, so it seem really odd if no one talked about it. And I am really close to my sister's kids. We spent at least a month in the same home as them every year for at least 7 years. They are almost more like siblings to my kids than cousins.

I would not talk to my Dh's nieces and nephews about it. I would probably talk to my SIL about it. I wouldn't talk to my brother's daughter about it. I may or may not talk to him about it.

[Katy]

7 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

(I'm from the midwest)

I had an abrupt separation last year. I called my mom to explain what was going on. I specifically asked her to tell my siblings and to fill them in on the details. I assume she did that with her pwn siblings as well, so that they would get the news and understand what was going on before I was face-to-face with them and I would have to awkwardly explain why my husband wasn't at a family event or whatever. I'm sure my aunts also told my cousins, etc. 

I would expect that an aunt would ask the separated person's parent/their own sibling for clarification. If one of my aunts point-blank asked me what happened I would have told them but I probably would have cried a lot, because talking about it does that to me.

 

We do this in my family too.  Sometimes a "please tell everyone" means an email about someone in the hospital with something minor or a new birth, sometimes (imminent death, divorce, equally severe) it's more of a phone tree, where each mom tells their own kids.

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Oh, well, the things I would say would be specific to my life and the life of my loved ones....principles of getting along, my own experience of a failed marriage....how my child was affected.  

And you think telling them it was hard on your kid is a great way to guilt them into staying married? 

If I were struggling in my marriage and a relative wanted to  give me "principles of getting along", I would feel patronized.

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

And you think telling them it was hard on your kid is a great way to guilt them into staying married? 

If I were struggling in my marriage and a relative wanted to  give me "principles of getting along", I would feel patronized.

Well, sure.  I am 54 as you probably are.  

Younger people....they might need to hear it.  As I mentioned further on in the thread....sometimes people just aren’t thinking clearly.  If they are....fine.....but I won’t feel guilty for doing my best to be a friend of marriage.