Parenting advice (10 year old son)

[JustEm]

My son has always been a pretty mature and responsible kid. Aside from the very occasional argument with his siblings or only doing a chore halfway he has been the easiest, most respectful, and obedient child.  We are not strict and do not spank, just possibly useful info.  Anyway, lately he's been making some really poor decisions, throwing landscaping rocks into neighbors yard even though he know he is not allowed to, cheating at board games, trying to make his siblings feel inferior to him, and a whole slew of other things.  To top off the bad decisions, when we confront him about it in a calm but serious manner he ALWAYS blames something or someone else. Sometimes he outright lies about it.  And when the truth can be proven (say it got caught on camera so you couldn't deny it happened) he continues to argue that it didn't happen or wasn't him. 

This is all relatively new and we don't know where it is coming from.  He is no help figuring it out because even after everything has cooled down he can't or won't talk about what happened.  He usually apologizes but in a way that I can tell he isn't really sorry because he still thinks he's in the right.   He'll give a more genuine sounding apology if he thinks that he is going to lose something he doesn't wants to lose but I don't actually know if it is genuine.

All that to say.  How would you handle something like this?  Overall, he's a sweet, loving, respectful, helpful, and happy kid but something is going on with him and I don't know how to help him or handle the situations more productively.

[HomeAgain]

I have a similar kid.  At this age we take a zero tolerance approach that is focused on protecting the rights of others and ourselves when he infringes on them.  It's a very calm, "you did x.  I don't want to play anymore.  Pack up the game."  Or whatever it is that he is doing: state the problem, protect that person's rights, and set a firm limit. 

I'm not usually interested in a verbal apology.  In our house an apology has three parts: acknowledging wrongdoing, accepting the responsibility for fixing it, and creating a plan to prevent it in the future.  When a kid has worked through the three steps we can begin to build trust again, but not before that.

[Farrar]

Welcome to early adolescence. Some kids' brains go a bit haywire.

I would not argue with a kid who wasn't acknowledging what he did. And I'd let there be a lot of logical consequences for some of this. Your siblings don't trust you in this game, you can't play it with them. You can't walk past the neighbor's yard alone anymore. You can't do ___ because we don't trust you to do it anymore.

It's a fine line. He's lashing out a bit and testing boundaries. You can't be too harsh - he'll just push harder. It's like a Chinese finger trap. You don't want him to decide he's a victim of your harsh regime (even if it's very gentle). But you also want to stay firm. And if you bow too much, you'll eventually hit a breaking point and lash out, which is also no good. I tend to think of it a bit like martial arts. When they come at you hard, you back up so their blow doesn't meet anything. But then later, that's when you push back.

I also wouldn't accept those apologies. Verbal apologies can be good for some kids, but obviously not for him at this stage. For us, apologies include making reparations somehow. Fixing the thing you did or doing an act of service to the person you hurt. I often put it on the kids to figure it out, but their lives are limited until they do.

[EmseB]

I would also mention to him you noticed a change in his demeanor or general attitude and ask him if he is having trouble with a friend or adult in his life. Is there anything he needs help dealing with? Sometimes something else is going on and the only safe place to lash out is at home. I'd also be checking internet history if he's on the computer a lot.

[Pen]

ITA with all of the above replies 

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

You can't walk past the neighbor's yard alone anymore. You can't do ___ because we don't trust you to do it anymore.

 

This one for sure because rock throwing could be life destroying or disabling.  

 

 

Cheating at a board game,  not so much.

 I might talk about what rules are really important for safety or other reasons and what rules might be able to be changed.  

 I might change game rules to testing out an anything goes for anyone policy and decide if that’s better or worse than following the usual game rules.  Or experiment with rules variety.  

We ended up with a lot of chess variations that are faster moving and possibly more fun than the basic international rules of chess game.  

 

I also would sometimes say something like “hey, it seems like you’re trying to get attention, but ____ isn’t a good way to get attention. Am I not paying enough attention when you are behaving well?  Could we change that?  Maybe you need a special one-on-one time with me [or your dad or ____] ?”

[Pen]

 

Quote

he has been the easiest, most respectful, and obedient child. 

 

Aside from early adolescence need to test boundaries, I would wonder if he sees siblings getting more attention for being more difficult and is looking for his own attention.

That would at least be my first guess (along with hormones etc), though I’d be open to him saying, no, mom, you don’t get it at all, it’s actually _____.  

 

The conference @Runningmom80 Posted which includes Daniel Siegel, author of Brainstorm, might be of help too.  

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Pen

[73349]

I have been very direct (but understanding) along the lines of...

• [Child claims not to have done what he clearly has done.] "It sounds like you wish you hadn't done that, because now [... someone is mad at you, etc.]."
• "It sounds like you are afraid of accepting responsibility for this. Are you worried about the consequences?"
• "I'm already aware of what happened. Would you like to tell me why you chose to [x]?" (And maybe he wouldn't, but it tends to end the argument.)
• "We would rather have you acknowledge your mistake and correct your behavior instead of claiming it didn't happen."
• "Telling the truth can be hard, but it makes you feel better." This one is harder to sell!
• "It seems that you are not ready for [freedom], so for a while, we will have to [have more supervision, etc. in this area]. We can reconsider in [time period]."

Edited May 10, 2019 by whitehawk

[JustEm]

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I have a similar kid.  At this age we take a zero tolerance approach that is focused on protecting the rights of others and ourselves when he infringes on them.  It's a very calm, "you did x.  I don't want to play anymore.  Pack up the game."  Or whatever it is that he is doing: state the problem, protect that person's rights, and set a firm limit. 

I'm not usually interested in a verbal apology.  In our house an apology has three parts: acknowledging wrongdoing, accepting the responsibility for fixing it, and creating a plan to prevent it in the future.  When a kid has worked through the three steps we can begin to build trust again, but not before that.

Thank you. I do not accept his apologies either and basically have the same 3 part apology you have. He simply has shut down when it comes to any of the parts. So, he'll throw out a verbal apology and hope it gets swept under the rug eventually. 

I like that you protect the rights of others, I may start doing that. With his siblings I've basically said, "you know ds cheats at that game or tries to take over when playing like that so if you stop playing with him he'll learn." I've never thought to simply make them stop playing with him, because they do have a hard time actually wanting to stop playing. But it always causes more arguing.

[JustEm]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Welcome to early adolescence. Some kids' brains go a bit haywire.

I would not argue with a kid who wasn't acknowledging what he did. And I'd let there be a lot of logical consequences for some of this. Your siblings don't trust you in this game, you can't play it with them. You can't walk past the neighbor's yard alone anymore. You can't do ___ because we don't trust you to do it anymore.

It's a fine line. He's lashing out a bit and testing boundaries. You can't be too harsh - he'll just push harder. It's like a Chinese finger trap. You don't want him to decide he's a victim of your harsh regime (even if it's very gentle). But you also want to stay firm. And if you bow too much, you'll eventually hit a breaking point and lash out, which is also no good. I tend to think of it a bit like martial arts. When they come at you hard, you back up so their blow doesn't meet anything. But then later, that's when you push back.

I also wouldn't accept those apologies. Verbal apologies can be good for some kids, but obviously not for him at this stage. For us, apologies include making reparations somehow. Fixing the thing you did or doing an act of service to the person you hurt. I often put it on the kids to figure it out, but their lives are limited until they do.

Me being too harsh does happen at times simply because of the frustration of it now being a daily issue that happens multiple times a day. I keep trying to work on that

[JustEm]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

I would also mention to him you noticed a change in his demeanor or general attitude and ask him if he is having trouble with a friend or adult in his life. Is there anything he needs help dealing with? Sometimes something else is going on and the only safe place to lash out is at home. I'd also be checking internet history if he's on the computer a lot.

 

Yeah I had considered this since we are in a new neighborhood and there are lots of new kids he hangs with. So, I've been trying to go one regular walks with him and just talk about how everything is going, if he's having issues with kids, etc. And he has been very open about things that do come up or concerns he has had. He's very talkative when it isn't directly related to acknowledging his faults or mistakes.

[JustEm]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

This one for sure because rock throwing could be life destroying or disabling.  

 

 

Cheating at a board game,  not so much.

 I might talk about what rules are really important for safety or other reasons and what rules might be able to be changed.  

 I might change game rules to testing out an anything goes for anyone policy and decide if that’s better or worse than following the usual game rules.  Or experiment with rules variety.  

We ended up with a lot of chess variations that are faster moving and possibly more fun than the basic international rules of chess game.  

 

I also would sometimes say something like “hey, it seems like you’re trying to get attention, but ____ isn’t a good way to get attention. Am I not paying enough attention when you are behaving well?  Could we change that?  Maybe you need a special one-on-one time with me [or your dad or ____] ?”

The problem with the cheating is that he does it specifically so he doesn't lose but then if someone else we're to cheat he'd be upset. It isn't about not liking the game, it is about being Superior to the other players. 

[JustEm]

The consequence for the rock incident was that he couldn't be outside unsupervised until he we can trust he will not touch the rocks again. The rocks are on our property in the front and back yard. He was throwing them across the street to see how far he could throw. He was not the only kids involved, his sister 9 and cousin 8 we're also involved. They both have the same consequence, my nephew obviously only at my house since I can't make rules other than at my house.

 

[Pen]

1 minute ago, hjffkj said:

The problem with the cheating is that he does it specifically so he doesn't lose but then if someone else we're to cheat he'd be upset. It isn't about not liking the game, it is about being Superior to the other players. 

 

I got that.  

But a game is different than throwing rocks.  You have a lot of options to solve cheating in a game. Such as you can stop the game entirely for everyone. You can also remove restrictions for everyone so that the game is not possible to cheat at because no rules.  This can sometimes show that the existence of rules can actually make it more fun than a free for all with no rules.

A board game is also a much safer way to experiment with trying to feel superior or working on his adolescence or rebellion or acting out, or whatever is going on than rock throwing.

 Sometimes a fairly benign situation to act out and release pressure is useful.  So I might not shut down the board game cheating with the same degree of zero tolerance as rock throwing 

[JustEm]

39 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

I have been very direct (but understanding) along the lines of...

• [Child claims not to have done what he clearly has done.] "It sounds like you wish you hadn't done that, because now [... someone is mad at you, etc.]."
• "It sounds like you are afraid of accepting responsibility for this. Are you worried about the consequences?"
• "I'm already aware of what happened. Would you like to tell me why you chose to [x]?" (And maybe he wouldn't, but it tends to end the argument.)
• "We would rather have you acknowledge your mistake and correct your behavior instead of claiming it didn't happen."
• "Telling the truth can be hard, but it makes you feel better." This one is harder to sell!
• "It seems that you are not ready for [freedom], so for a while, we will have to [have more supervision, etc. in this area]. We can reconsider in [time period]."

This is all similar to how we've always worded issues like this. Lately ye just pushes back with everything.

Oddly enough today, about an hour after an incident he came to me and really talked about what happened and how he can try to change his behavior. Which is the first time he's ever reach out like that, just when I thought he'd finally broken me. It is a start

[Pen]

Another thing that can happen around 10 is that what was fun at a younger age stops being.

sometimes boys especially and kids generally need harder things to challenge themselves with.   

[Katy]

It's most likely hormones, but I would definitely check browser histories and try and verify with him that he hasn't been abused or bullied in some way, or isn't showing other signs of the types of mental illnesses that frequently don't appear until puberty.  I'm sure a new neighborhood right at the time status becomes important to kids is contributing to the superiority complex.

DH would definitely agree with the post above that he needs hard and meaningful work.  Could be farm chores, could be scouting, could be a meaningful volunteer job or a charity he creates or contributes to that's working on fixing whatever problem he thinks is the biggest threat in the world, could be training for a race or joining a little league team where the coach will be tough and make them run laps every time they are bone headed.

In my sleep-deprived state I can't remember your religious background or academic approach. If you do copywork you could assign character assignments.  Moralizing political speeches from Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or even stuff from Benjamin Franklin's writing.  Obviously there are also Bible verses that go along with those themes.  Particularly ones about humility.  I find I have to be careful with that type of thing with one child though who tends to become bossy, condescending, and self-righteous.  Growing my own little pharisee.   YMMV on that.

If he's having trouble talking about neighborhood kids or you're concerned for his mental health and you consider a therapist, look for a cognitive behavioral therapist.  They focus on correcting thinking rather than discussing all the reasons you feel self-pity. It's more effective.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I think that there's a difference between a gradual behaviour change due to hormones + pushing boundaries and a drastic change in temperament that is like flicking a switch.

I've seen some flick-a-switch changes in children and in my experience these have been related to bullying and/or abuse. I really hope this isn't the case for your son, but please keep it in mind. 

[JustEm]

19 minutes ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I think that there's a difference between a gradual behaviour change due to hormones + pushing boundaries and a drastic change in temperament that is like flicking a switch.

I've seen some flick-a-switch changes in children and in my experience these have been related to bullying and/or abuse. I really hope this isn't the case for your son, but please keep it in mind. 

 

It isn't quite a flick of the switch. He's always had the tendency towards the type of things he's been doing lately but it was rare and when it happened he responded really well to the ways we handled it. It has only been in the last few months that the occurrences have gotten more frequent but it still came gradually in that time frame. Right now it is a daily issue. His reactions have been the more worrying thing, even though we've seen him act out that way before but once again incredibly rarely.

Bullying could be a possibility but abuse would be a hard one to fathom but obviously I won't dismiss it as impossible.

[JustEm]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

It's most likely hormones, but I would definitely check browser histories and try and verify with him that he hasn't been abused or bullied in some way, or isn't showing other signs of the types of mental illnesses that frequently don't appear until puberty.  I'm sure a new neighborhood right at the time status becomes important to kids is contributing to the superiority complex.

DH would definitely agree with the post above that he needs hard and meaningful work.  Could be farm chores, could be scouting, could be a meaningful volunteer job or a charity he creates or contributes to that's working on fixing whatever problem he thinks is the biggest threat in the world, could be training for a race or joining a little league team where the coach will be tough and make them run laps every time they are bone headed.

In my sleep-deprived state I can't remember your religious background or academic approach. If you do copywork you could assign character assignments.  Moralizing political speeches from Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or even stuff from Benjamin Franklin's writing.  Obviously there are also Bible verses that go along with those themes.  Particularly ones about humility.  I find I have to be careful with that type of thing with one child though who tends to become bossy, condescending, and self-righteous.  Growing my own little pharisee.   YMMV on that.

If he's having trouble talking about neighborhood kids or you're concerned for his mental health and you consider a therapist, look for a cognitive behavioral therapist.  They focus on correcting thinking rather than discussing all the reasons you feel self-pity. It's more effective.

My family is riddled with mental health issues so it shouldn't surprise me that this is a good likelihood. Thank you for reminding me that these really are the years that things become active. 

We actually have experience with cognitive behavioral therapists since my DD had major issues when she was 7. I will look into getting ds evaluated at the children's hospital if we can't reframe things in a helpful way for him

[JustEm]

Thank you all. I really appreciate the advice. Today I felt completely drained of all emotion because of how exhausting he has been.  

Dh and ds had a good talk tonight and ds actually opened up a bit. There was some blame shifting during the talk but apparently he caught himself and tried to reword what he meant. I'm hoping this is the start of figuring it out together. I'll be showing dh this thread and working with him to come up with a game plan on how to help ds through this stage.

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

Another thing that can happen around 10 is that what was fun at a younger age stops being.

sometimes boys especially and kids generally need harder things to challenge themselves with.   

 

Agreeing with this.  We've been having issues with DS10 that we never had before. (Edited to add: Well, we had some of these issues before, but not to the magnitude we were seeing.  When he was younger, I could tell him to please listen to me and do what I was asking, and he would just do it.  Not so much anymore).  It took several months of me trying to reason with him before I realized it was hormonal. I stopped trying to reason with him after that, lol.  We've instituted a rather firm schedule and I've taken the position that I will not *debate* anything with him.  I am happy to explain why he has to ABC or XYZ but I am no longer interested in debating why option PDQ should also be entertained when the only reason he's bringing up PDQ is to be contrary. 

So, our "treatment" for this so far has been:

• more chores. 
• more challenging schoolwork
• more activities
• more sleep
• more food
• more talking to each other
• more structure

On the days that DS10 has a full dance card, (lots of chores, school, predictable schedule), we have fewer issues.  The backtalk, whining, and grumbling stopped for 3 weeks.  (Bonus: our house was also very clean!!!)  Today was the first day that our schedule was off and I did not have a list waiting for him.  We had an early am vet appointment and DS10 had to attend a different session of art today as a make-up.  Today was also the first day in 3 weeks that he got mouthy with his art teacher and pitched a fit in class.  It's probably not a coincidence. 

We've been doing more thoughtful talking, as well.  I've been trying to talk to him about "When I was your age..." without it sounding really preachy.  He's been listening and asking questions. 

A lot of the younger-kid things we used to do are no longer fun for him, but I don't think he understands why they aren't fun anymore.  So he goes to the splash pad, expecting it to be fun...and then it's not really fun and he's frustrated.  He remembers that it was fun, so he expects it to be the same each time.  The last time we went, he shoved a random kid head first down the slide, for no reason he could articulate.  The week before that, he hit the dog "because the dog is annoying" (!!!).  This is sooo unlike DS10.  

I'm trying to steer him toward tween activities, but it's tough because this town does not have a lot of tween events and so many homeschoolers pack the kids back to school once they hit the tween years.  There is a tween co-op but the mom that runs it is really intense plus it's an hour+ away.  I also kind of want to get DS10 around more positive male role models.  I've been taking him to a chess club which is almost all dudes, and so far he likes it.  I'd like to get him into the local robotics group as well, but that will have to wait until August, when they start back up.

Hang in there!

 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by MissLemon

[ktgrok]

Also, make sure enough sleep, enough food/calories/fats, keep an eye out for allergy issues given it is pollen season and those can make you cranky, etc. But yes, around that age they become contrary. 

[LMD]

My MIL gave me some great parenting advice once. Don't give them a chance to lie. If you know they did it, don't play that game.

You've had some good advice here. Good luck!

[Tanaqui]

I'm going to second LMD's MIL's advice. As far as I'm concerned, acting as though you don't know they did it when they did do it (whatever it is) is close to lying itself. And of course they'll try to wiggle out of it if you give them that opening! Anybody would! So don't even start.

[JustEm]

So ds took it upon himself to install a fences gate to keep the 2 year old from wondering into the front yard from the back. He also helped dh clean the gutters, open the pool, and just installed two pot lid holders for me.  He is over the moon with himself and has been too busy to get into trouble.

[LMD]

Meaningful, physical work is so good for kids - especially boys!

Glad you had a better day. 

[sassenach]

On 5/10/2019 at 5:17 PM, hjffkj said:

The consequence for the rock incident was that he couldn't be outside unsupervised until he we can trust he will not touch the rocks again. The rocks are on our property in the front and back yard. He was throwing them across the street to see how far he could throw. He was not the only kids involved, his sister 9 and cousin 8 we're also involved. They both have the same consequence, my nephew obviously only at my house since I can't make rules other than at my house.

 

 

At about this age, ds got yelled at at the park for throwing fruit (I don't remember what kind- apricots?) from a hill at the park, onto the roof of a house. It was a big park and I was at the other end but ds told me about it. I gave him a verbal scolding. Then not 2 days later, my neighbor comes over to ask me if I could get ds to stop hitting (with a bat) small crab apples on to their roof. I looked at him and said, "Are you starting to figure out that people don't like it when you throw fruit on their roof?"

My point being, they really do go brain dead at this age. You've gotten great advice. I will only add that this really is a new stage of parenting and it will take new strategies. Somehow we have to get harder and softer at the same time- not dying on the small hills but setting some firm and logical boundaries on the things that matter.

 

[fairfarmhand]

I’m reading through a book by meg meeker called Boys will be Boys. It’s very helpful on addressing some things that boys this age really do need. I’m in the chapter on character traits. I’m going to start talking about things like courage (she offers that liars lack courage, because they don’t have the nerve to stand behind what really happened. She says that boys instinctively yearn to be honorable and courageous and the often feel really bad when they lie because they’ve broken their own personal code of honor) and how to encourage bravery and honor in boys. It’s not necessarily a Christian book but she does talk a lot about. Faith and how it is good for boys.

[ktgrok]

On 5/11/2019 at 5:53 PM, LMD said:

Meaningful, physical work is so good for kids - especially boys!

Glad you had a better day. 

I'm am convinced that middle school aged boys need to work on a farm or something. They are hitting that age where in times past they would have gone from hanging around mom to going out hunting with dad or whatever, and it shows. It's like they act like pains in the you know where to force that distance between themselves and mom, and if you can find a way to give it to them that doesn't require them being little pains, that works way better. Work around the house, a volunteer job, something. I thiimnk when my next son hits that age I will work on getting either my husband or another male to oversee some school work, pare down academics hugely, and have them spend a TON of time doing some kind of "job" be that paid or otherwise. Or a project. Rebuild an engine by watching youtube videos, raise chickens, start a lawn care business, something. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Ktgrok

[chocolate-chip chooky]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I'm am convinced that middle school aged boys need to work on a farm or something. They are hitting that age where in times past they would have gone from hanging around mom to going out hunting with dad or whatever, and it shows. It's like they act like pains in the you know where to force that distance between themselves and mom, and if you can find a way to give it to them that doesn't require them being little pains, that works way better. Work around the house, a volunteer job, something. I thiimnk when my next son hits that age I will work on getting either my husband or another male to oversee some school work, pare down academics hugely, and have them spend a TON of time doing some kind of "job" be that paid or otherwise. Or a project. Rebuild an engine by watching youtube videos, raise chickens, start a lawn care business, something. 

You have pretty much described what Montessori called Erdkinder. It was her vision for adolescent education. 

http://www.michaelolaf.net/montessori12-18.html

[Terabith]

Yup.  Maria Montessori suggested hard, physical, practical work, directed by someone other than parents.  Give kids exposure to the peers that they crave, the real life experiences, the hard, physical, practical, "why do I need to know/ do this?" work that they crave.  Age 10-12 is also the age that in days past, boys in particular were sent off to apprentice.  

Edited May 12, 2019 by Terabith

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

You have pretty much described what Montessori called Erdkinder. It was her vision for adolescent education. 

http://www.michaelolaf.net/montessori12-18.html

 

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Yup.  Maria Montessori suggested hard, physical, practical work, directed by someone other than parents.  Give kids exposure to the peers that they crave, the real life experiences, the hard, physical, practical, "why do I need to know/ do this?" work that they crave.  Age 10-12 is also the age that in days past, boys in particular were sent off to apprentice.  

yes! I learned about that here a few years ago (past time for my son, sigh). But man, his volunteer job, and now real work, have changed him in ways that I, his mother, never could have. 

I'm trying to figure out what something similar will be for my daughter, who at 9 is having some....attitude issues. 

[Tanaqui]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

yes! I learned about that here a few years ago (past time for my son, sigh). But man, his volunteer job, and now real work, have changed him in ways that I, his mother, never could have. 

I'm trying to figure out what something similar will be for my daughter, who at 9 is having some....attitude issues. 

 

Sleepaway camp maybe? Or a summer with distant relatives? It's not the same as hard work, but something about being away from home puts kids on their best behavior and it *sticks*.

[HomeAgain]

11 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

yes! I learned about that here a few years ago (past time for my son, sigh). But man, his volunteer job, and now real work, have changed him in ways that I, his mother, never could have. 

I'm trying to figure out what something similar will be for my daughter, who at 9 is having some....attitude issues. 

Horseback riding has helped my niece quite a bit.  But there's always scouts or civil air patrol or 4H-  something of the like where they're getting out and getting dirty but with real work.