passports/denied entry - and secondary searches??

[gardenmom5]

I'm trying to give as little info as possible. 

dd has an employee she'd like to send to Canada for work at their subsidiary there one or two days a month, going in her place so she can do other things.  HR totaled screwed the pooch, and the employee has been denied entry. (the HR manager did get chewed out - and didn't show up for work today). now, employee will require secondary screening every. single. time. he goes to Canada - including for pleasure, because of this denied entry. (dd is trying to get him comp'd for this.)

after a "denied entry" has been entered into your file, is it possible to get it removed?  she's still hoping to fix the work permit situation (at this point, she's pushing for her boss to fork out for an immigration lawyer to fix it because it was the hr manager's arrogant fault this happened.).

if he's able to get that work permit, is it possible to wipe the denied entry with the secondary search requirement? or has the HR manager screwed him for the rest of his life?

[Anne]

Oh my.  That’s terrible.  No advice - Canada is tough!  I hope someone has some hope for your employee!!

 

Anne

[Mabelen]

I would insist on having a Canadian immigration lawyer get started right away with this case to fix whatever can be fixed.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Mabelen said:

I would insist on having a Canadian immigration lawyer get started right away with this case to fix whatever can be fixed.

dd doesn't have the authority to hire one (on the company's dime) - she's pushing her boss (who does have the authority) for an immigration lawyer.

[hornblower]

so, it's possible that many years ago, I used to be a Canadian Immigration Officer 

The computer system back then was such that once you had a violation, it always came up on the computer & required a secondary interview. I don't know what their computers are doing now but if anything, it seems that records go back further and are more durable. I'd suggest contacting Canadian consulate in the nearest US city for advice but I'd not be surprised if it's an annoying thing that will follow the person forever. 

FWIW, my dad was in the US border computer system for years (due to his work and being from Eastern Europe - he got put on some list during the cold war). He vacationed in the US a lot and always had extra interviews until the mid 90's when someone did some magic thing on the computer and he can finally fly to Hawaii without being asked about whether he's a communist... 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, hornblower said:

so, it's possible that many years ago, I used to be a Canadian Immigration Officer 

The computer system back then was such that once you had a violation, it always came up on the computer & required a secondary interview. I don't know what their computers are doing now but if anything, it seems that records go back further and are more durable. I'd suggest contacting Canadian consulate in the nearest US city for advice but I'd not be surprised if it's an annoying thing that will follow the person forever. 

FWIW, my dad was in the US border computer system for years (due to his work and being from Eastern Europe - he got put on some list during the cold war). He vacationed in the US a lot and always had extra interviews until the mid 90's when someone did some magic thing on the computer and he can finally fly to Hawaii without being asked about whether he's a communist... 

we had a family friend who was held (not arrested) in a case of same name/wrong person back in 1971 when he was young and dumb and didn't follow up to get it expunged from his US record.  then a couple years ago, they bought tickets to fly out of Vancouver - and Canadian customs wouldn't allow him to enter the country... they knew about it months in advance, so I think they finally managed to get it sorted so they weren't up a creek with their tickets.

it's just the HR manager was so arrogant about this.  she's had six months to work on this - she had never done this before, and refused to take anyone's advice on how to accomplish this - and he's paying for her hubris. thing is - he would (usually) only be going up for the day - and now would spend a good portion of his time there in secondary screening.  but they do get to know the immigration officers at the port where they always enter, so secondary screening might become "more timely".

[Laura Corin]

Not Canada, but another Western country.  I had a screwed-up work visa situation for a country that I would normally have entered by just showing ID.  I was advised to go to the embassy in advance and get a formal multi-entry visa (even for leisure) so that all the checks could be done in advance of entry.  I did this and it worked.  I don't know if the bad mark was ever taken off my record, but it didn't seem to matter.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Laura Corin

[Lanny]

This has, as you politely phrased it at the end of the OP, probably screwed him for the rest of his life.

At the least, the company should pay for an experienced Canadian Immigration Attorney to help him.

His problem(s) in the future may not be limited to Canada. Depending upon the issue(s) he may be in the Interpol system. If so, when he arrives in some other country he might be detained, or denied entry, and returned by the airline to the airport he came from. That would not look good in his Passport or the computerized systems they have today.

If he was going to work, occasionally, in Canada, on a routine basis, that would probably be a serious Visa violation in their system, if he does not have Work Authorization in Canada..

Going there, once, for a day or a week, would probably not be noticed by their system, but regular visits would raise eyebrows. Going there, once, to attend a business meeting or attend a convention, on a Tourist Visa, would probably not be noticed by their system.

Working in any country, without a Visa giving one legal permission to be in the country, and to work in that country, is a violation.

If it was a one time thing, that would probably be OK, but if they saw that he was there, once a month for example, for one day, that would probably cause an alert in their computer system.

In another forum, I read a thread about someone who overstayed his Tourist Visa here in Colombia. He wrote that he was banned from returning to Colombia for 10 years. That was 8 years ago.  I suspect bans like that are not limited to Colombia.

Canada has a reputation for being very tight with Visas to live and work there.

Much good luck to him in the future!

ETA: If he was Denied Entry to Canada and if they noted that in his Passport, and the computer system, he is probably Toast and not just in Canada.  I believe, for example, that if he arrived here in Colombia and the Immigration person saw that in his Passport, or the computer system here alerted the Immigration person, he would be subject to Secondary Screening and possibly would be Denied Entry here and returned to where he arrived from.  His ability to travel Internationally, without Immigration issues, may have been permanently harmed.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Lanny
add ETA

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

Can he apply for a global entry pass?   That might be an opportunity to clear this up. 

what is a global entry pass?

 

25 minutes ago, Lanny said:

This has, as you politely phrased it at the end of the OP, probably screwed him for the rest of his life.

At the least, the company should pay for an experienced Canadian Immigration Attorney to help him.  dd is pushing for this, but she can't authorize the expenditure so she has to get her immediate boss to authorize it.

His problem(s) in the future may not be limited to Canada. Depending upon the issue(s) he may be in the Interpol system. If so, when he arrives in some other country he might be detained, or denied entry, and returned by the airline to the airport he came from. That would not look good in his Passport or the computerized systems they have today.

If he was going to work, occasionally, in Canada, on a routine basis, that would probably be a serious Visa violation in their system, if he does not have Work Authorization in Canada..  this is why the HR dingbat was supposed to get him the Canadian work permit. (and has had six months to do so.)  dd has one (goes in her passport), but this HR manager is new since then and wouldn't take anyone's advice.  it is only for as long as she is employed at this specific company because it also operates in Canada.

Going there, once, for a day or a week, would probably not be noticed by their system, but regular visits would raise eyebrows. Going there, once, to attend a business meeting or attend a convention, on a Tourist Visa, would probably not be noticed by their system.  but it is.  when they go, it is only for *a day, or two at most*. ONCE a month.  (and since she'd be sending him in her place, it would be even less than once a month for him.)

 

ETA: If he was Denied Entry to Canada and if they noted that in his Passport, and the computer system, he is probably Toast and not just in Canada.  I believe, for example, that if he arrived here in Colombia and the Immigration person saw that in his Passport, or the computer system here alerted the Immigration person, he would be subject to Secondary Screening and possibly would be Denied Entry here and returned to where he arrived from.  His ability to travel Internationally, without Immigration issues, may have been permanently harmed.

I will pass on to dd that this HR manager may have screwed him for entering any other country.

if dd had the authority over this HR manager - she would have been fired.

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

What needs to be done is going to depend on the denial reason.  A meeting in Canada doesn't always require a permit.  Working on site does. I suspect there is more to the story if denial was for attempting to go to a meeting.  

he wasn't attending a meeting - he was supposed to be working on site, doing specific tasks for which it isn't cost effective to have a full (or even part) time Canadian employee. (because there just isn't that much to do.)

dd does this regularly - she has the work permit, and will go up and do stuff.  occasionally staying over night (and a few times, working overnight because she had things to do when they were on downtime/not open.)

[TheReader]

Oh, this sounds awful. I hope they can figure things out and get it corrected. 

[Mabelen]

9 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

dd doesn't have the authority to hire one (on the company's dime) - she's pushing her boss (who does have the authority) for an immigration lawyer.

I understand. It still needs to be done. The guy screwed over needs a Canadian immigration lawyer and pronto due to the company’s (HR manager) incompetence and negligence. This is the company’s doing, not the employee’s.

[Corraleno]

8 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

Can he apply for a global entry pass?   That might be an opportunity to clear this up. 

Global Entry expedites processing of US citizens and permanent residents through US Customs & Immigration, it doesn't help US citizens enter other countries.

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

The company needs to provide the HR person and the refused employee the training to do their jobs. The employee who was denied entry was obviously not trained if he attempted to cross without permit.  His manager should also be retrained...that manager should have verified that all documents and housing arrangements were in place before he scheduled work abroad.....and that includes a passport that is up to date and not about to expire as well as the designation of the trained HR host in the other country.   The host country HR should be providing in country info of importance so there are no awkward or illegal things done by mistake.

Agree, need a lawyer too. 

Also, a background check on the employee.  People will hide what they want, and of course they aren't up on the law for each country, but certain things may be in their records that will deny them permission to cross at the border.  There are waivers available for some things and that should be done in advance. 

 

the employee doesn't need training - the HR manager needs to be fired.  she was repeatedly told how to file the paperwork for the permit, and the process to receive the correct permit - she didn't do it the way she was told to do it - she was arrogant about she knew better.

the employee was TOLD by the HR manager he had the necessary paperwork, so it was assumed he could safely cross the border.

[gardenmom5]

31 minutes ago, Mabelen said:

I understand. It still needs to be done. The guy screwed over needs a Canadian immigration lawyer and pronto due to the company’s (HR manager) incompetence and negligence. This is the company’s doing, not the employee’s.

yep.  dd spent quite a bit of time assuring employee he did nothing wrong.  and why she's pushing hard for the company to fork out for an immigration lawyer.

one of the hard things is they are now owned by a german company - and they are a bunch of arrogant pricks who think if it works in germany, it will work everywhere.  (and the german way is the only way.) - that includes the attitude of how you go to other countries.

[SKL]

I agree, they need to hire an immigration lawyer for him and do all they can.  He should threaten to sue if they refuse.  Or just do it himself and claim it as a reimbursable expense - and fight it out later if necessary.

I can't imagine how infuriated I would be if this happened to me, assuming it's not an easy fix.  But maybe they can fix it with an attorney's help.

[gardenmom5]

21 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Nope, the employee needs to know what paperwork he needs and he needs to verify he has it before he attempts to enter.  He should have had training on that.  Think of the problems the company is going to have if he exits to another country on a tourist visa over the weekend, and that cancels his work visa, meaning he can't get back in to get the job done. He needs his training in advance on this, not FOHW.

The  manager didn't verify that documentation was in place before scheduling the employee to work.  Probably didn't have a background check done to assure that a permit could be issued.  Probably didn't contact host HR person either.

This is all bad management.  I'd be looking for new job if I was that employee. 

the manager was going by what her german counterpart was telling her to do.  (what would be done in germany… they even sent equipment from Europe expecting it to work in north America - without any adaptation!) dd kept telling her "you're in the US, this is the way it has to be done."

what host HR person? this is a small company (with maybe two dozen employees in Canada) - the HR person is here (with a counterpart in germany) there is no Canadian HR person.

dd has had zero issues going to Canada using her work permit or general passport for pleasure. (she's gone up for work many times, and gone up for pleasure, with a longer stay, a few times since.) doesn't matter which - but then, the person who got her work permit did it the correct way.

[Lanny]

I've read most of the replies now.  If it was a  company that had more employees in Canada, the Canadian branch would/should have been the ones to get the proper Work Visa for this unfortunate employee.  However, in the case of the DD of the OP, her Visa was obtained properly and she is in the clear.

I am not a litigious person, but as someone upthread mentioned, the victim of this should sue the employer for 7 or 8 figures (USD) if the employer doesn't eliminate this problem for him.  I wonder if he realizes just how much of a mess he is in with regard to future international travel?

There are many people, including many very famous people, in the USA, who think they can just pick up and move to Canada, as if they were moving from one U.S. state to another U.S. state. Although there is geographic proximity, Canadian laws simply do not permit that kind of thing.

I agree with the OP that the HR person responsible for this fiasco should be fired, but, if that were to happen, that would not eliminate the problems the victim has.

 

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Nope, the employee needs to know what paperwork he needs and he needs to verify he has it before he attempts to enter.  He should have had training on that.  Think of the problems the company is going to have if he exits to another country on a tourist visa over the weekend, and that cancels his work visa or eTA, meaning he can't get back in to get the job done. He needs his training in advance on this, not FOHW.

The  manager didn't verify that documentation was in place before scheduling the employee to work.  Probably didn't have a background check done to assure that a permit could be issued.  Probably didn't contact host HR person either.

This is all bad management.  I'd be looking for new job if I was that employee. 

My husband travels internationally all the time - he has never had "training" on how to do it. His travel department secures the appropriate visas, he presents his passport with the visa at the border and he gets in. His manager never verifies if he has the right documentation other than to say "Do you have a current visa for xyz?" My husband responds "yes" or "no." How does he decide which way to answer? He reads the visas in his passport - there is no "special training" required. If his answer is "no" and his boss needs him to go, then the travel department puts the wheels for any needed visas in motion, dh fills out the appropriate forms (that are given to him by travel), travel submits the paperwork through the appropriate channels and uses an immigration lawyer if one is needed. Once they have the visa, they return his passport to him, he looks at it and says "wow, a visa for xyz" and he heads out. Oh, he also usually gets an email from the travel department when his passport & visa is on it's way back to him with visa expiration info - nothing that isn't also on the visa.  The cultural information is sometimes helpful, sometimes it doesn't tell him anything he doesn't already know. The travel department is the area that has to be trained appropriately - there is no way my husband should be required to learn the ins & outs of each country he travels to (he will be in five different countries this month alone) - that's why they have a travel department. If the OP's daughter handles travel through HR, then the HR department is the department that needs to know the ins & outs of working internationally. 

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

The company needs to provide the HR person and the refused employee the training to do their jobs. The employee who was denied entry was obviously not trained if he attempted to cross without permit.  His manager should also be retrained...that manager should have verified that all documents and housing arrangements were in place before he scheduled work abroad.....and that includes a passport that is up to date and not about to expire as well as the designation of the trained HR host in the other country.   The host country HR should be providing in country info of importance so there are no awkward or illegal things done by mistake.

Agree, need a lawyer too. 

Also, a background check on the employee.  People will hide what they want, and of course they aren't up on the law for each country, but certain things may be in their records that will deny them permission to cross at the border.  There are waivers available for some things and that should be done in advance. 

 

My husband's manager doesn't have the time to verify that my husband has the appropriate documentation and housing arrangements in place - she wouldn't have time to do anything else if she did that for all of her direct reports. That simply isn't her job. It would be an incredible waste of time and money.

[Lanny]

If the company hires a top-notch experienced immigration attorney in Canada, to try to help the victim, there might be a possibility the victim can be made whole again. If not, he is probably going to have issues, if he travels internationally, for the rest of his life.  He is probably in the Canadian system and that may have also put him in the Interpol system. 

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

The company needs to provide the HR person and the refused employee the training to do their jobs. The employee who was denied entry was obviously not trained if he attempted to cross without permit.  His manager should also be retrained...that manager should have verified that all documents and housing arrangements were in place before he scheduled work abroad.....and that includes a passport that is up to date and not about to expire as well as the designation of the trained HR host in the other country.   The host country HR should be providing in country info of importance so there are no awkward or illegal things done by mistake.

Agree, need a lawyer too. 

Also, a background check on the employee.  People will hide what they want, and of course they aren't up on the law for each country, but certain things may be in their records that will deny them permission to cross at the border.  There are waivers available for some things and that should be done in advance. 

 

 

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Nope, the employee needs to know what paperwork he needs and he needs to verify he has it before he attempts to enter.  He should have had training on that.  Think of the problems the company is going to have if he exits to another country on a tourist visa over the weekend, and that cancels his work visa or eTA, meaning he can't get back in to get the job done. He needs his training in advance on this, not FOHW.

The  manager didn't verify that documentation was in place before scheduling the employee to work.  Probably didn't have a background check done to assure that a permit could be issued.  Probably didn't contact host HR person either.

This is all bad management.  I'd be looking for new job if I was that employee. 

 

53 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Who said "special training" is required?  Or that everybody's immediate manager needs to verify their documentation and housing?   In the scenario here, a newbie was sent to the border - not an experienced traveler.  Management did not  verify that the employee had what he needed to do the assigned work.   If no training  on the necessary paperwork was required, he wouldn't be needing a lawyer and he would have had the right documentation and no issues.  The responsibility for seeing that employees have what they need to get their work done belongs to the manager..in this case shared between newb manager and HR manager. Poor communication, poor management. 

Would you work for a manager who had been to the country you were assigned to -- for the first time -- and didn't give you a heads up on things that might be tricky? Poor communication.

 

 

See my bolded text  - you did, I was just responding to your statement.  The manager and the employee aren't the ones that need the training - the travel department, or in this particular case, the HR department, does. That's their job.

ETA: No, I wouldn't expect a manager to give me a "heads up" on potential immigration issues - that's the travel department's job. In fact, there shouldn't be any issues if the travel department does it's job correctly. If, as a manager, I had an employee who needed that level of hand holding from me personally to cross a border, I'd be telling them to call the travel department with questions and maybe I would even be looking for a different employee.

Edited May 8, 2019 by TechWife

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

 

 

 

See my bolded text  - you did, I was just responding to your statement.  The manager and the employee aren't the ones that need the training - the travel department, or in this particular case, the HR department, does. That's their job.

ETA: No, I wouldn't expect a manager to give me a "heads up" on potential immigration issues - that's the travel department's job. In fact, there shouldn't be any issues if the travel department does it's job correctly. If, as a manager, I had an employee who needed that level of hand holding from me personally to cross a border, I'd be telling them to call the travel department with questions and maybe I would even be looking for a different employee.

small company.  no travel dept. (not getting into how they arrange travel)  this is entirely on HR.

[TechWife]

10 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

small company.  no travel dept. (not getting into how they arrange travel)  this is entirely on HR.

Yes, if the company has determined that HR is responsible for work visas, then it is all on them - not on the employee. If the employee were responsible for obtaining their own visas, it would be a different story, but that's not the case.

[BeachGal]

The Nexus card expedites travel between US and Canada for pre-approved travelers, however with this problem, he would probably not be approved. IMO, he needs a very good immigration lawyer more sooner than later.

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/nexus/nexus-eligibility

NOLO is a possible place to start figuring out what to do, or finding a lawyer.

https://www.nolo.com/lawyers/immigration-law

[SKL]

I wouldn't blame HR if the employee had just tried to do it himself and screwed up.  I mean, I have never relied on HR to arrange my international travel permissions.  But in this case, the HR took charge and knowingly disregarded US/Canadian rules she was informed of.  Via HR, the company injured this employee and needs to make him whole.

That said, it is certainly good advice to employees to independently check - but if HR says "we already checked that and you are compliant," then it's the company's fault IMO.

[Lanny]

I try not to assume, but, if I permit myself to assume, the victim is a young person who previously had little or no experience with international travel, and no experience with travel that involved working in another country, under their laws. Probably with no knowledge of visas, of any kind. tourist or work visas, etc.

Hindsight is 20-20 and in this case, it would have been better, had the clueless HR person hired a company that expedites visas, to arrange the proper visa for the person who is now the victim.

Whether this can be removed from his record probably depends upon not only Canadian laws, but, on whether they consider this to be a Criminal matter or a Civil matter. If they consider Visa Fraud to be a Criminal matter, he is probably in trouble.

Good luck to him!

 

[Farrar]

A company essentially did this to me when I was young and dumb. It got me stranded somewhere abroad briefly, unable to go anywhere. They definitely fixed it. But also, this was in a part of the world where bribes are part of the fixing and I'm pretty sure some bribing happened on my behalf. Actually, I'm pretty sure the whole reason that they had not fixed my visa in the first place was because the bribes were slow. Sigh.

[Pen]

Was this a company that already seemed to be a problem? Possibly one where you asked a question earlier and some suggested that your dd should seek a new job?

 

The problem going on may not be a single incompetent HR employee, but rather a pattern coming from the management in Germany.  

 

I’d be wondering if they might be doing it on purpose especially if they seem to particularly shaft non-German employees 

 

in any case the shafted employee needs a lawyer

and imo your dd needs to be careful unless this is a usually super company that had a single HR error 

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

Was this a company that already seemed to be a problem? Possibly one where you asked a question earlier and some suggested that your dd should seek a new job?

 

The problem going on may not be a single incompetent HR employee, but rather a pattern coming from the management in Germany.  

 

I’d be wondering if they might be doing it on purpose especially if they seem to particularly shaft non-German employees 

 

in any case the shafted employee needs a lawyer

and imo your dd needs to be careful unless this is a usually super company that had a single HR error 

the American/working in the US HR manager is incompetent.

the hr manager was ripped a new one by her boss for this screw up 

[Pen]

46 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the American/working in the US HR manager is incompetent.

the hr manager was ripped a new one by her boss for this screw up 

 

Ime, what the higher ups do irl to solve the problem will show the truth more than chewing out an employee.  

 

Eta: this assumes the problem is as described—entirely  fault of the HR person not doing things correctly .  If there was an underlying problem such as  a criminal record that the employee has had it may be very different 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Pen

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Ime, what the higher ups do irl to solve the problem will show the truth more than chewing out an employee.  

we'll see.  dd is pushing for him to be com'd, on top of hiring an immigration lawyer to fix it.