What's your reaction...

[Innisfree]

to a community college Precalculus teacher who announces in the first class that the class moves very quickly and only has a 30% pass rate? 

How much variation is there likely to be in the material covered as "Precalculus"? Is there legitimately more done in some classes than others, justifying moving more quickly through the material? (Can you tell I'm not a math person and haven't done this in decades?) They are using an online curriculum from Openstax.

I'm trying to sort out whether this is a reflection on the teacher (dd said he seems impatient), or the general preparation level of the student body, or what.

Dd isn't a math person either. She will work diligently, and I'm already looking into options, from getting tutoring to help her through the course, to dropping it and finding an alternative. This is the first time she's done dual enrollment. Her other classes seem fine. I don't want to saddle her with a college class that's destined to cause her lasting pain by bringing down her GPA. But... most online options are full or conflict with her other classes, she does not do well with asynchronous classes, and this is one subject I sure can't teach.

Is there any way we can figure out why this class seems so hard? If it's just that most of the math students are unprepared, then we can support her with a tutor and maybe she'll be fine. But if the teacher is impatient with people who don't understand immediately, we should pull her out.

Any thoughts?

Editing to add: she's 16, and in 11th grade. I need to let her ask any further questions of the teacher about the class, not do it myself at this stage, am I right? I really want to just email him and ask what the deal is, but I'm betting I shouldn't.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Innisfree

[laundrycrisis]

IMO the instructor sounds like someone who doesn’t care about helping people learn anything.  If someone comes in with that kind of warning and doesn’t offer any suggestions for how to succeed, then they just like to gloat over people who fail. 

[Heathermomster]

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/

Maybe, look him up and see if he has a rating.

[regentrude]

That seems like a very low pass rate, OTOH, one of our boardies teaches at CC and she tells horror stories of students not turning in work and flunking out.

It can have any number of reasons. Very likely, students are insufficiently prepared in math. Most students are. And when students take a high school math course at CC, these will be to a  large extent students who need remediation. Strong math students have taken the course in high school. So the student demographic will very likely be skewed towards low performing students. 

I recommend looking at the syllabus; that way you will see whether it covers a normal amount of material (by comparing with other courses' syllabi) or whether the teacher tries to cram a lot into the course. The announcement that the course is fast paced wouldn't faze me; college math classes ARE fast paced - if they cover high school level subjects, they cover the material of a high school year in a semester. So it is to be expected that it goes double speed compared to a high school class, and that has nothing to do with the teacher.

Edited August 22, 2018 by regentrude

[Innisfree]

Good suggestions, thanks. I'll get dd to look him up, and we can certainly compare the syllabus to others.

I am pretty sure two semesters of Precalculus are required here before moving on to calculus, but I'll check that too.

[klmama]

Are there other professors teaching the same course?  She should look them up, too, and try to go with the one that explains clearly and works hard to help his students succeed. If she finds a better section, but it's full, 8Filltheheart shared an app recently that helps watch for openings in specific course sections. 

[gstharr]

Your daughter will probably hear this speech alot. In professional school, every semester there was at least one class that I heard some variation of "look to your left, look to your right. One you won't be here at the end."  If I recall correctly, one of the law professors said it in the movie, Love Story.  Anyway, at my school, we were all there at the end. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by gstharr

[RootAnn]

26 minutes ago, gstharr said:

Your daughter will probably hear this speech alot. In professional school, every semester there was at least one class that I heard some variation of "look to your left, look to your right. One you won't be here at the end."

DH & I were just having a discussion about this in relation to the state college that DD#1 is taking a class at. We both think the type of sentiment expressed above that we heard a lot in college wouldn't be allowed at the local college. They try really hard to keep kids from failing. (It still happens. Several (DD thinks 1/3) of the kids in DD#1's psych class dropped (to get a "W" instead of an F). Almost half failed the first exam, but significantly less failed the second and third exam. I told DD#1 she likely won't continue to have this soft & loving environment where she ends up going. ?

[Reefgazer]

My reaction is that the college admits a lot of students unprepared for college-level mathematics.  The instructor is probably trying to communicate that students should be diligent in keeping up with the class,  consider taking pre-reqs or developmental classes to prepare for precalc, or consider a slower-moving precalc course (the college where I teach offers a 1 or 2 semester precalc course; they cover the same things, one option just moves a lot faster).

Edited August 23, 2018 by Reefgazer

[Roadrunner]

My friend teaches at a local CC and she reports constant struggle trying to increase pass rates and retain students in the class. About a third drops and another third barely passes despite significant handholding. I think that’s a natirejof many community colleges. 

[Innisfree]

Thanks for helping me figure this out.

Dd looked the professor up; he only has one review, but it was good. The CC only offers precalc as a two-semester course. It appears to cover no more material than the other online syllabi we could find, so I can't see why it would move faster than a standard high school class. 

Dd sent the instructor an email last night trying to get some clarification, so we may find out more. It sounds like it really might just be that most students at that school are very unprepared. 

[Lecka]

We had a situation last year where my husband was told by an advisor to take a class, and then the professor didn’t come out and say “you should drop it” but basically said it.

I urged my husband to drop it, but he felt like “the advisor wouldn’t steer me wrong.”  

He did drop it, and the adviser did steer him wrong.

But he dropped it in time to drop it with no penalty, BUT not enough time to get into a different class. 

So to me, I think this teacher is doing people a favor, to know to look at their schedules and see if they are able to commit, and to think about it it’s a class that is appropriate.  

My husband goes to a kind of walk-in advising and now he will only talk to the other person who works there, who has been extremely helpful.  

[Lecka]

I’m going to add, it ended up not mattering for us that my husband was not a full-time college student after dropping the class he dropped.

But for some people they really need to be a full-time college student and really need to drop a class quickly and get into a more appropriate class!  

It’s not really related to the class, but it is related to the big picture of financial aid and various other things requiring status as a full-time student.  

We have a friend who had a similar situation and it really derailed him to drop a class, he is basically out of school over it.  

My husband is a working adult trying to get his degree, it makes a big difference. 

I think good, helpful teachers try to look out for their working adult students and want to see them succeed even if their own class is maybe not one they should be enrolled in for a given semester (or at all).  

The bad adviser my husband saw looked at his schedule and his advising report, and basically said “this class will fit this requirement,” but it was not appropriate, and the other adviser knew a lot more about what classes could also meet that requirement and would work for my husband.  We are lucky to have her, honestly, and I don’t know where he would be without her.  I look through things too, but it’s hard for me to know about individual classes, and the adviser does because she asks students about classes and keeps track.  My husband goes to online college so he can’t really ask around.  There are two representatives of the online college who work locally that he can talk with, so that is how he gets advice about what classes to take.  

Its very different from a young student.  My husband needs a degree but his potential jobs are jobs he will get based off of his current experience and references.  But he needs a degree to meet degree requirements that potential jobs have.  He is getting out of the Army in two years and needs a degree to do the same work as a civilian, just because it is required and he won’t be able to get into interviews without one.  

[...................]

My son took pre Calc at CC and it was a breeze and he got an A and helped tutor. At 15. 

Now that said, so many kids at CC are there because they weren’t good students at high school. So many students are not good at math AND they never learned proper study skills.

Many of them have major gaps in their math knowledge and also poor habits in general. They show up in their pajamas, unshowered and half awake for a 9;30 class. 

That alone covers 50% of the students my son encountered at CC in the fall semester especially. 

Now, that said - your dd should view the syllabus. Is it organizes? Do the dates match the current calendar? Does the teacher provide printable notes and handouts for students to help study in addition to the Webassogn work? Is the office hours clearly stated and encouraged on the syllabus?  If the answer is No to all of the above I would consider dropping because one thing we have learned is that some community college teachers are very disorganized and it makes it very hard to learn. The teachers that don’t care about organizing themselves also don’t care about helping students during office hours.

She should also give the teacher a few days to see if she understand her teaching style ? 

[...................]

Hey, I just noticed they are not using WebAssign...

I'm just going to put my opinion out there and say that if this were my non-mathy child I would look carefully at the online textbook and consdier dropping.  OpenStax is merely a textbook. It's not a smart learning environment.  It's an online textbook that you can download, but it doesn't give alternate problems if you got one wrong during homework and assign more problems like Pearson's WebAssign does.  

With a student who is not self-teaching and self-motivated, it'll be very hard to pursue PreCalculus using a regular online textbook.  Is there another class at this CC that uses Pearson's WebAssign? It's expensive but so what.  It works, and it's extremely user friendly.  

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Calming Tea said:

Hey, I just noticed they are not using WebAssign...

I'm just going to put my opinion out there and say that if this were my non-mathy child I would look carefully at the online textbook and consdier dropping.  OpenStax is merely a textbook. It's not a smart learning environment.  It's an online textbook that you can download, but it doesn't give alternate problems if you got one wrong during homework and assign more problems like Pearson's WebAssign does.  

With a student who is not self-teaching and self-motivated, it'll be very hard to pursue PreCalculus using a regular online textbook.  Is there another class at this CC that uses Pearson's WebAssign? It's expensive but so what.  It works, and it's extremely user friendly.  

I am very confused by this. This student is not in a self-teaching environment; she is taking a class.There is a professor who lectures, works examples and gives assignments and (hopefully) feedback. Human teachers and human graded assignments are far superior to computer graded homework that can only check final answers but not give detailed feedback on a procedure.

OpenStax is merely a free textbook that replaces an expensive textbook. This alone allows no inference about the quality of a course.

We are not using any computerized homework platforms in any our courses in our department and receive outstanding results.

Edited August 23, 2018 by regentrude

[...................]

I just really like the smart learning environment that supplements the teaching environment, and I thought/think it would be really helpful especially since she says her dd is non-mathy.  We love WebAssign and my son has been very impressed by and helped by the supplementation to the teacher and regular handouts.  

I am glad you receive outstanding results.  But I just think that for a student who needs extra help, the smartlearning environment, in addition to a good teacher is a fantastic tool.  Especially for a non-mathy high schooler taking this class as her high school course...

[homemommy83]

From my personal experience a low pass rate isn't uncommon in the community colleges here.

I took A&P and I got an A+ and it was a curved class because he said the average grade in all of the A&P classes was an F.  At the end of the semester he announced my grade to the class and then proceded to calm them all down by saying the next highest grade was a C and he would base the curve off of that kid instead of me.  All I did was actually participate in class discussions, read the chapter, quizzed vocabulary one day, and read the chapter review...before I get people saying it is because I am just super smart (I am, but not that much more than anyone else) I want to mention that all quizzes were solely vocabulary and the test was a remake entirely of the chapter review guide.  People just didn't study.  Honestly it freaked me out that they were going for nursing?....and were given Cs instead of Fs for their record.  

 

So...what I am saying is that most likely the students choosing this community college are not motivated to do their best.

Brenda

Edited August 24, 2018 by homemommy83

[EKS]

My theory is that a lot of CCs push the harder parts of their intermediate algebra courses into their precalculus classes.  This is because the developmental math texts are structured this way (of the series I've seen, which, admittedly, is only two).  And the texts do this, probably, because their goal is to get everyone "college ready" ASAP, and at the CC, college math usually starts with precalculus.  So, as a result, you have a course that is jammed with a lot of difficult stuff that students are seeing for the first time.

The other issue would be if your daughter is doing a one semester precalculus course, which has both algebra and trig together.  That would make the pace even more difficult.

Edited August 24, 2018 by EKS

[...................]

boy that's scary.

HI I am a nurse but I really flunked anatomy and physiology ?

[...................]

22 hours ago, regentrude said:

I am very confused by this. This student is not in a self-teaching environment; she is taking a class.There is a professor who lectures, works examples and gives assignments and (hopefully) feedback. Human teachers and human graded assignments are far superior to computer graded homework that can only check final answers but not give detailed feedback on a procedure.

OpenStax is merely a free textbook that replaces an expensive textbook. This alone allows no inference about the quality of a course.

We are not using any computerized homework platforms in any our courses in our department and receive outstanding results.

 

 

OP, I just wanted to add that I hope I didn't overstate my concern re: Open Stax....you know your dd best, and how her study habits will be between classes.  Also, I don't think anyone asked yet if this is a 2, 3 or 4 day per week class?  If it's two days per week the smart learning environments are particularly helpful.  If it's a four day per week class, a regular textbook will most likely be fine....I'm sure your dd, being homeschooled, has learned how to check her own work ?

I was picturing my own dd in this situation and getting nervous for you, but perhaps I did overstate my concern.

[Clemsondana]

Back when I taught at a CC, I got in the habit of telling students that we lost 1/3 of the students during the first 3 weeks of the lab.  The course started with 3 weeks of metric conversions/dosage calculations, and was basically multiplication and division with exponents.  Some students would try to 'ride it out', not realizing that it was 3 of the 16 weeks, and other students would assume that they could learn it magically without treating it like math that needed to be practiced.  I worked hard to help, but I wanted them to get that they'd need to work at this because it wasn't going away.  Preparedness was definitely an issue.  It was fine to teach students who had a basic grasp of math, and many had just forgotten how to do dimensional analysis, but I also had students get very angry because I taught that 10^3 is 1000, not 30.  

[Serenade]

I would probably look for another class. 

My son is taking precalc at the community college this year, and IMO, the teacher wants the students to succeed and offers appropriate support.  Although my son had no  problem placing into it with the entrance exam, the work and workload is harder than we anticipated based on the entrance exam results.  He's using this textbook with the online access for My Lab -- the online access was required.  The ability to do multiple problems to help learn a concept has been helpful to my son.  His community college also has free tutoring services -- maybe your daughter's does as well?  Although I don't like teachers who come out with threats on the first day of class.  I'd be inclined to suggest to my daughter that she drop it.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Serenade

[Reefgazer]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:42 AM, Lecka said:

We had a situation last year where my husband was told by an advisor to take a class, and then the professor didn’t come out and say “you should drop it” but basically said it.

I urged my husband to drop it, but he felt like “the advisor wouldn’t steer me wrong.”  

He did drop it, and the adviser did steer him wrong.

But he dropped it in time to drop it with no penalty, BUT not enough time to get into a different class. 

So to me, I think this teacher is doing people a favor, to know to look at their schedules and see if they are able to commit, and to think about it it’s a class that is appropriate.  

My husband goes to a kind of walk-in advising and now he will only talk to the other person who works there, who has been extremely helpful.  

This situation is pretty common at the college where I teach.  The advisors are over-worked and can't spend the necessary time with each student to discuss their preparation and what is going on in their lives that may negatively impact their ability to pass the class.  The advisors tout the official college line on pre-reqs, despite the fact that different students may need more extensive preparation.  The professors are in the trenches, though, so can better identify potential pitfalls for a particular student after they have had time to talk with them, and the professors also know what is really needed to pass a class, rather than an advisor (who is speaking about official pre-reqs that are often determined by bureacrats at the state level.

[Reefgazer]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, Lecka said:

I’m going to add, it ended up not mattering for us that my husband was not a full-time college student after dropping the class he dropped.

But for some people they really need to be a full-time college student and really need to drop a class quickly and get into a more appropriate class!  

It’s not really related to the class, but it is related to the big picture of financial aid and various other things requiring status as a full-time student.  

We have a friend who had a similar situation and it really derailed him to drop a class, he is basically out of school over it.  

My husband is a working adult trying to get his degree, it makes a big difference. 

I think good, helpful teachers try to look out for their working adult students and want to see them succeed even if their own class is maybe not one they should be enrolled in for a given semester (or at all).  

The bad adviser my husband saw looked at his schedule and his advising report, and basically said “this class will fit this requirement,” but it was not appropriate, and the other adviser knew a lot more about what classes could also meet that requirement and would work for my husband.  We are lucky to have her, honestly, and I don’t know where he would be without her.  I look through things too, but it’s hard for me to know about individual classes, and the adviser does because she asks students about classes and keeps track.  My husband goes to online college so he can’t really ask around.  There are two representatives of the online college who work locally that he can talk with, so that is how he gets advice about what classes to take.  

Its very different from a young student.  My husband needs a degree but his potential jobs are jobs he will get based off of his current experience and references.  But he needs a degree to meet degree requirements that potential jobs have.  He is getting out of the Army in two years and needs a degree to do the same work as a civilian, just because it is required and he won’t be able to get into interviews without one.  

This is exactly what I was tryin gto convery in my above post, but you said it much better than I did!

[...................]

18 minutes ago, ClemsonDana said:

Back when I taught at a CC, I got in the habit of telling students that we lost 1/3 of the students during the first 3 weeks of the lab.  The course started with 3 weeks of metric conversions/dosage calculations, and was basically multiplication and division with exponents.  Some students would try to 'ride it out', not realizing that it was 3 of the 16 weeks, and other students would assume that they could learn it magically without treating it like math that needed to be practiced.  I worked hard to help, but I wanted them to get that they'd need to work at this because it wasn't going away.  Preparedness was definitely an issue.  It was fine to teach students who had a basic grasp of math, and many had just forgotten how to do dimensional analysis, but I also had students get very angry because I taught that 10^3 is 1000, not 30.  

 

That last line made me laugh out loud.  Then it made my cry. LOL

[homemommy83]

1 hour ago, Calming Tea said:

boy that's scary.

HI I am a nurse but I really flunked anatomy and physiology ?

So true...

[Bootsie]

A lot depends upon the CC and the demographics of the students.  I know some CCs where many students register for classes, perhaps show up a few times, and then drop the class.  They tend to have a student body population that is not prepared and not particularly engaged in schoolwork.  (Some of my friends teaching at CC expect at least a third of their students to either never show up or just show up a couple of times and drop.)  

As far as the pace of the course, I find some students who find that a college course does feel like it is moving more quickly than a standard high school course.  Often, the class meets fewer times per week and less total hours per week, and the student is expected to do more outside the classroom.  In a high school class, much of the practice work is done in the classroom; in college, that practice work is done on the students' own time.  If a student doesn't have the discipline to keep up with that practice work, the student quickly finds that he is behind.  Math material builds; so, it is easy to find yourself behind, lost, and confused.  It isn't like you can just pick up with the new material and go back to look at the older material when you get a chance.  

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, jdahlquist said:

As far as the pace of the course, I find some students who find that a college course does feel like it is moving more quickly than a standard high school course.  Often, the class meets fewer times per week and less total hours per week, and the student is expected to do more outside the classroom.  In a high school class, much of the practice work is done in the classroom; in college, that practice work is done on the students' own time.  If a student doesn't have the discipline to keep up with that practice work, the student quickly finds that he is behind.  Math material builds; so, it is easy to find yourself behind, lost, and confused.  It isn't like you can just pick up with the new material and go back to look at the older material when you get a chance.  

I just recently did freshmen orientation sessions, and this is one of the most important points we are encouraged to stress: the pace is faster, expect to work 2 hours outside of class for every hour in class,  and no time to fall behind and catch up.

Unrealistic expectations about the work load is the most common reason why students don't succeed. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by regentrude

[SeaConquest]

3 hours ago, homemommy83 said:

From my personal experience a low pass rate isn't uncommon in the community colleges here.

I took A&P and I got an A+ and it was a curved class because he said the average grade in all of the A&P classes was an F.  At the end of the semester he announced my grade to the class and then proceded to calm them all down by saying the next highest grade was a C and he would base the curve off of that kid instead of me.  All I did was actually participate in class discussions, read the chapter, quizzed vocabulary one day, and read the chapter review...before I get people saying it is because I am just super smart (I am, but not that much more than anyone else) I want to mention that all quizzes were solely vocabulary and the test was a remake entirely of the chapter review guide.  People just didn't study.  Honestly it freaked me out that they were going for nursing?....and were given Cs instead of Fs for their record.  

 

So...what I am saying is that most likely the students choosing this community college are not motivated to do their best.

Brenda

 

If it makes you feel better, you couldn't get into nursing school around here with Cs in A&P. It is incredibly difficult to get into nursing school in my area, and most people can't get in without near perfect grades. 

[Innisfree]

The professor did get back to dd by email, and his response actually encouraged me a lot: he took some time to answer her thoughtfully, which seemed much better than the impression she had received of him in person as being impatient and annoyed about teaching this class. She, unfortunately, retains her first impression.

This particular CC only offers precalc as a two semester course, so that's what this is. It meets twice a week. This is exactly what dd is accustomed to from her online classes. Also, the instructor was apparently referring to an overall 30% pass rate in math classes at this cc. He said in his email that he thinks that's true in many institutions.

Dd is not the best mathematician, but she is a diligent and responsible student. We've found a tutor. No final decisions yet, but she may stay in the class.