Kids acting as if parents should be "available" 24/7........

[Jill- OK]

I think it's old enough, too, but I guess the bigger question is, are THEY ready to be left alone, unsupervised, more than once a week?

 

I absolutely think that young teens can be left alone, or in charge of younger siblings, here and there. I do it often!

 

*But*...my older kids are confident. I wouldn't be confident, if they weren't.

 

It might be that the readiness/ability is there, and there's simply a psychological barrier that's simultaneously making them unsure about staying alone and not being with you. (Two different issues). But even if it's only psychological (and they really could handle an emergency, etc.)...it's still there, and it's still valid; it could actually undermine their decision-making.

 

I know that finances are tight, and when kids are a certain age, there's an expectation of not having to pay babysitters, but...is there any way you could ease them into you being gone, by having someone else there, when you aren't?

 

You mentioned dysfunction. May I gently suggest that even if other folks do it regularly, it doesn't mean it's time, developmentally, for *your* kids to be doing it, considering what they've experienced? You may have to wait a little longer for some maturity to develop. If I'm remembering correctly, we're not talking a long amount of time, in between all of these life changes, are we? Not saying that there's a set-in-stone timeline for all children to achieve healing and normalizing, but...you may have to adjust your expectations.

 

I hate telling people things that they probably don't want to hear, and if you hadn't asked, I probably wouldn't chime in, but...I'd come down on the conservative side, when it comes to leaving them alone, if they aren't comfortable with it. You mention a lack of boundaries; would it be possible to work on *that* issue, apart from them staying alone? Establish some perimeters with you *in* the house, first, then ease into more independence for them?

 

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's hard to balance everyone's needs, but I know you're creative, and that if it's possible to find a way to work out what would be best for your family, you'll do it.

[Jill- OK]

...similarities between us, lol.

 

I think some of my kids' permission-asking might have to do with the potential of getting ratted out ("Did you ask Mom if you could turn on the TV?!?!"), but it might just be the control freak in me; I don't mind them calling.

 

Now, if they over did it, yeah, I might say "Is it really necessary to call?", but for the most part, it's stuff I want them to ask about.

 

Good analogy about the dh. I like being able to call him anytime, too, although he's learned to turn off his cell, lol.

 

("What do you mean you were in a high-level meeting with defense contractors?!? *I* needed to ask you what you wanted for dinner!!!")

[*anj*]

Without quoting anyone in particular......

 

I do not think it's a fair assessment to compare what "most parents do" in terms of being out "X" times a week. Most parents are away from their kids 8 hours a day minimum due to outside the home education and/or work.

 

 

Dear Joanne,

First of all I want to lay down the love mat before I say anything else. I mean that I have followed your journey over the past several years, and have mourned when you mourned and rejoiced when you rejoiced. I have a lot of respect for you, as a woman and as a mother.

 

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice here, and I don't want to just reiterate what others have said. But the bit that I highlighted above really jumped out at me.

 

Sometimes as a parent, I gauge all of my children by the abilities of my eldest. I think "Well, he's almost 11 years old, he should be able to xyz..." And I just sort of lump the youngers in with him. Your oldest should be old enough to leave alone, but I wouldn't necessarily think that a 9 and 11yo were ready for that. Do they feel secure enough with the 13yo to trust him as the "fallback"? I mean, if there were an emergency, do you think they have the same level of confidence in him as they do you or your dh?

 

I think that may be the bottom line. You didn't mention which of the children does the most calling, but maybe the oldest isn't secure in feeling ready for that level of responsibility and maybe the younger two don't feel secure either. And while it is true that children and parents are separated for 8 or more hours at a time, it's not the same thing. When children are in school and parents are at work, those children are not left alone to their own devices, they are under adult supervision. They are busy with classes and friends and so forth, and not alone in a house. And you know, I agree with Pam that houses are just kind of creepy at night. Even I hear sounds and think I see things out of the corner of my eyes when I'm alone at night.

 

I totally appreciate your desire for alone time. I wish I could really show you how very much I empathize with you. But the truth is that I don't know any adults (homeschooling or otherwise) who are able to go out a couple of times a week, leaving their kids alone at that age. I know people who, even with teens have had to fight for their right to a Saturday Date Night, but not with pre-teens and younger.

 

[Joanne]

Folks.

 

I know my kids. I do not think this is an issue of readiness, actual need or developmental not ready. Truly.

 

I don't think my kids are insecure in being left alone. I don't think they are reacting to the changes in my life over the last few years.

 

I think this thread got too personal, assumed way too much and got some pretty heady stuff laid upon it.

 

This is a case of my kids operating with the assumption that I should be immediately, totally accessible to them regardless of what I am doing. There are several reasons for that.

 

My kids are ready to be alone, happily or at minimum not unhappily. Them calling me "a lot" is not a sign of them needing more "me" time, more "family time" or them being tender over the changes in our lives.

 

I'm flabbergasted that no one has read some of the "you need family time" comments as being insulting.:confused::(

 

I am reading this thread with a great deal of raw sensitivity. I'd like to suggest that many of you responding are doing so through the filter of your perception of my experience and it's creating inaccurate to the issue responses.

[abbeyej]

I know my kids. I do not think this is an issue of readiness, actual need or developmental not ready. Truly.

 

Okay, I genuinely don't understand why you posted then. If you truly believe what you posted above, then it's just a discipline issue. So deal with it. Tell them not to call unless it's an emergency, define emergency, and lay out consequences if they do other than you have said.

 

I can't help but believe there were other reasons for you to post in the first place -- and reasons why you have responded with such defensiveness to posts that were meant to be helpful, not critical.

 

But if not, then just apply the discipline techniques you have been lecturing the board about for so long.

[*anj*]

 

I am reading this thread with a great deal of raw sensitivity. I'd like to suggest that many of you responding are doing so through the filter of your perception of my experience and it's creating inaccurate to the issue responses.

 

Joanne,

That's all we have. The truth is that none of us know you or your kids. But you asked our opinions, and we did the best we could with the information that we have.

 

Believe me, there have been times when I've asked personal questions and felt like I had been spanked by the end of the thread, seriously. And in those situations I had to either

• choose to ignore certain comments because although the person meant well, she obviously didn't "get" what I was saying
  
• look for the kernel of truth and at least chew it over
  
• accept that maybe one of these people had an insight that I wasn't prepared for, an insight that I didn't like, but that could be "an inconvenient truth" (forgive the allusion! :o)

I'm sorry that this is such a hot button issue for you. I'm not sure what you wanted us all to say. Did you just want to vent? That's truly okay, if that's all you were looking for, but I (and I suspect several others) thought that you were looking for input. I have an old and dear friend and we always say "This is a vent, don't try to solve my problem" or "Tell me the truth, what do you think about this situation." We communicate really well because of that.

 

That's all for now.

Be at peace.

[WTMCassandra]

Folks.

 

I know my kids. I do not think this is an issue of readiness, actual need or developmental not ready. Truly.

 

I don't think my kids are insecure in being left alone. I don't think they are reacting to the changes in my life over the last few years.

 

This is a case of my kids operating with the assumption that I should be immediately, totally accessible to them regardless of what I am doing. There are several reasons for that.

 

Joanne, I tried in my earlier reply to respond only to the question you were asking, but it appears from replies you made to others that I miscalculated how much training they had in this area. I know this thread has been touchy for you and lots of people. I'd like to try to bring it back around to your original question. I hope that's OK.

 

My question to you about the immediately, totally accessible thing is: Do they act this way at home? Are they characterized by being "pasted" to you at home?

 

To me, if the answer is yes, then I would start setting boundaries at home and then extend it to when you are out. It's a pervasive issue that has nothing to do with "being left home alone."

 

But if the answer is no, then it's time to back away and find out why. (And I don't want to go there right now, and I'm not making any assumptions about whether you going out is right/wrong/indifferent.) I'm just saying that perhaps the strategy for working on this problem would be different.

 

Also, you report that you think there are several reasons why they have this expectation. If you're not too exasperated, could I ask what they are? (They might help us figure this out.) You have alluded to the AP philosophy possibly being unhealthy (I'm not wanting to debate that one way or the other). I just think of my friend who says, "I've always been just so *available,* and now it's backfiring on me as the children get older. I have to teach them, for my good and theirs, that I'm "offline" sometimes."

 

This is the aspect of this situation that I think would be profitable for us to discuss to help you find ways to bring balance.

 

I don't want to judge your or anyone's stances on the important issues being raised, but I want to support you. It's tough to feel exasperated and post to a board wanting help only to get more criticism and thus feel even more exasperated. (I'm positing that's what you might be feeling based on what you said.)

 

Hope this helps a little. I genuinely want to listen to what you have to say and not judge it. (((Joanne)))

[Tammy]

I am no help...but just wanted to let you know I play Texas Hold'em also.... Are you still in Florida...? I play in the West Palm Beach area....

[Crissy]

The conversation my children and I had regarding this issue revolved around mutual respect.

I reminded them that I do not and will not call them on their cell phones when they are in the middle of baseball or wrestling practice, watching movies at a friend's home or riding their bikes at the park for some inconsequential questions or 'just because'.

My boys know that I don't interrupt their free time unless there is an emergency (and we've defined emergency). They also know I expect the same consideration.

I do carry my phone with me, but I do not expect it to ring when I am in a beautiful restaurant, enjoying adult conversation with my friends and my husband unless there truly is an emergency on their end.

[Joanne]

My question to you about the immediately, totally accessible thing is: Do they act this way at home? Are they characterized by being "pasted" to you at home?

 

No, they are not velcro children at home. At least not beyond normal, age expectedly, IMO. I've been able to sleep, shower, toilet and attend to hygiene issues for years.

 

Not "being able to cross the threshold of my master bedroom door" is a new one for them. They are willing to learn; but it's taking a while.

 

have alluded to the AP philosophy possibly being unhealthy (I'm not wanting to debate that one way or the other).

 

Sometime, I *do* wish to discuss this. ;-) However, in this moment, I just want to clarify that I don't think AP, as I embrace and understand it is unhealthy. I do think that certain family styles developed in the *name* of AP are unhealthy but I don't think those styles are AP. I think there are (largely unacknowledged) unhealthy aspects within both the AP and HS community but I don't find AP or HS unhealthy in and of themselves (obviously, as a devoted user of both!).

 

Also, you report that you think there are several reasons why they have this expectation.

 

I think this expectation begins with the fact that I am a mother. It was exaggerated in my former marriage by my xh who expected, beyond reason and in a controlling way my accessibility TO HIM. Even when operating a daycare of 6+ preschoolers, I had to be able to drop them to answer HIS CALLS. Similarly, I was not allowed actual "me time", "out time" and we did not have dates or time together that presented a healthy picture of a nurtured marriage. He failed to see me as a complete, whole human or our marriage as a living entity. My kids grew up until 3 years ago being trained that I was a non person except as it relates through them.

[Joanne]

I am no help...but just wanted to let you know I play Texas Hold'em also.... Are you still in Florida...? I play in the West Palm Beach area....

 

Hold Em is fun! (and I feel the need to clarify to the unitiated that tournament play in bars is "free", no gambling).

 

I'm in Texas, I never moved to FL; I got a divorce instead. LOL.

[j.griff]

The first question is general: Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

 

The second is more specific: Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

 

I can't even stand being *constantly* available to my Littles, ;) I do NOT let them bother me when I am in the bathroom at ALL- unless there is a REAL emergency.

When DH and I go out (not very often- mostly we do quick (or NOT) shopping trips without the kids, or without ALL of them), there are some places that we don't have a good signal (when we go to a free movie on base). I try to let dd know where we are going in case there is an emergency though.

For a while when I was gone shopping (I do grocery shopping w/out the kids, so I can THINK LOL) dd would call me every time, to see if I was on my way home yet. That really started to bug me, and I let her know that I didn't like it. She hasn't done it since. She knows she can call if she NEEDS something, but she also knows that I can't stand the sound of a ringing phone LOL.

 

IMO, I'd just explain to the dc that this is the way things are, that mommy does NOT appreciate a million phone calls- give them a list of acceptable reasons TO call (and of course tell them if something URGENT comes up that's not on the list then of course they should call you)- talk to them about how you make sure their needs are met before you leave, you are not leaving them in dire circumstances, and that this is YOUR time. Point out to THEM that you are with them practically 24/7, and that you NEED this time for YOU, that it is annoying when they call you for little things, over and over. I think they are "old enough" to understand all of that.

 

Hugs

[WTMCassandra]

I think this expectation begins with the fact that I am a mother. It was exaggerated in my former marriage by my xh who expected, beyond reason and in a controlling way my accessibility TO HIM. Even when operating a daycare of 6+ preschoolers, I had to be able to drop them to answer HIS CALLS. Similarly, I was not allowed actual "me time", "out time" and we did not have dates or time together that presented a healthy picture of a nurtured marriage. He failed to see me as a complete, whole human or our marriage as a living entity. My kids grew up until 3 years ago being trained that I was a non person except as it relates through them.

 

Ah, this explains a lot. Actually, reading this, I realized that you said some of this before. I think this is the key to the whole issue--why they are doing it, and why it seriously gets on your nerves (and why you're frustrated with people on the board questioning whether you *should* go out).

 

I think your emotional baggage (very understandable) is at the root of your annoyance--leftover deep pain that is touched off when they seem to treat you the way your DH used to.

 

I think you should be kind to yourself and them. Sometimes when my children do something that sets me off, it helps just to know *why* it is such a hot button.

 

I think what Crissy posted is good--she had a talk with her children about mutual respect. But perhaps your children need more instruction and help in this area because the former life was so off-kilter.

 

For me, it feels selfish/bizarre to be the one to teach my children about respecting me. It also feels very unfulfilling to have to explain those things. Could your DH step in here a little, gently, and help begin to teach them to respect their mom? Or, could *he* answer the phone when they call and determine if the request is legit? If it is, then he could pass it to you. If not, he could relay that they don't need to call about it and tell them you will see them later.

 

But it might take them a while to catch on based on their history. So, could your DH help you to defuse some of the frustration?

 

(((Joanne)))

[Robin in Tx]

I have to agree with Abbey. If there are not any anxiety/adjustment issues at play here, then it is simply a discipline issue and you seem quite capable of thinking through that.

 

I'll answer your two questions:

 

1. Is there a perception of more accessibility today? It's not a perception. It's a reality. We have cell phones now. We *are* more accessable.

 

2. Do you let your kids access you 24/7? Yes. I do. I never go anywhere or do anything where she can't get in touch with me somehow in case of an emergency. If she abused that access, I would teach her not to. Plain and simple.

 

Robin

[j.griff]

Okay, I genuinely don't understand why you posted then. If you truly believe what you posted above, then it's just a discipline issue. So deal with it. Tell them not to call unless it's an emergency, define emergency, and lay out consequences if they do other than you have said.

 

I can't help but believe there were other reasons for you to post in the first place -- and reasons why you have responded with such defensiveness to posts that were meant to be helpful, not critical.

 

But if not, then just apply the discipline techniques you have been lecturing the board about for so long.

 

WOW! What is WRONG with this thread? SHe asked two very specific questions at the end of her post, and others are adding all sorts of other stuff into it. :confused: People post things here all the time, and they don't always like the responses. She did NOT ask if her kids were "ready" to be left at home, that decision is HERS to make and she didn't ask for that kind of advice.

Should we just tell everyone who posts with a "discipline issue" that they shouldn't have posted and they should just "deal with it"?

[Robin in Tx]

Jenn, I think it's simply a reaction to Joanne's reaction. If truly this is not a readiness issue, etc., then truly it is just a discipline issue. I think Abbey's advice is good... deal with it as a discipline issue. Don't overthink it. It's simpler than it appears.

 

Do I leave my kid at home alone sometimes? Yes. And she doesn't call me unless she needs to. I've taught her not to. This is a direct answer to Joanne's second question, which was how to handle arranging for uninterrupted time. I go, and I tell her not to call me unless she really needs something. Joanne has made it clear that this is not about readiness or attachment anxiety... it's about not respecting her boundaries. She can search the boards and find lots of good advice about that, much of which was given by her :). (in other words... she knew all along the answer to her problem, she just didn't realize it because mind fog is thicker when it's *you* in the situation).

 

Robin

[j.griff]

Wow, then at LEAST half the posts here are totally un-necessary, and most of us should just stop posting. After all, we could search the archives for other threads about it. I was offended and found it totally rude and un-necessary for someone to question WHY another poster even posted at all.

[GothicGyrl]

I have a LOT of respect for Joanne, having "seen" her through some of the most trying times she speaks of. I may not agree with AP, but for Joanne, I've nothing but respect.

 

As WTMCassandra focused in on, THIS is the key:

I think this expectation begins with the fact that I am a mother. It was exaggerated in my former marriage by my xh who expected, beyond reason and in a controlling way my accessibility TO HIM. Even when operating a daycare of 6+ preschoolers, I had to be able to drop them to answer HIS CALLS. Similarly, I was not allowed actual "me time", "out time" and we did not have dates or time together that presented a healthy picture of a nurtured marriage. He failed to see me as a complete, whole human or our marriage as a living entity. My kids grew up until 3 years ago being trained that I was a non person except as it relates through them.

 

All bolding mine. You have no idea just how controlling this man was to her. The cruz of it is that her kids grew up thinking, acting, and believing the way her XDH did, the way he treated her, etc. Even though her kids are NOT abusive, they know nothing else.

 

The man she is married to now, I can honestly say I CRIED when she spoke about him because the love he has for her and her kids showed in her postings. It really did. This isn't about the kids being "littles", or not getting enough family time, this is about them needing to re-learn behavior that was inappropriate to begin with (thanks to the Ex).

 

What Joanne is asking for is help with that--just HOW does one undo the vast amounts of damage that has been done to them by the Ex? Think of it like this, if a little boy grows up seeing daddy hit mommy all the time and is never taught that it is wrong to do so, what's that little boy going to grow up doing? Right--hitting women because he was "taught" that it was ok to do so by way of not teaching him it was wrong.

 

Her kids are not still "littles", I hate that. Kids grow up and they grow up differently than other kids--no two are alike. What I've seen here is simply horrendous to read and it makes me sad. You can't keep your kids, kids for very long and one shouldn't try to keep them as kids. You've got to let them grow up.

 

Joanne, I hope you don't feel I've overstepped any boundaries, I know how important that is to you. I really DO have a high amount of respect for you and I just could not, knowing what you went through, sit back and allow anyone to assume anything, the way it is being assumed.

 

Continue your nights out. It is, to me, a training issue, considering what your children went through--they need to be "untrained" somehow. I can't say I know how to do this because there has always been someone home with my kids (without me even trying), though they have been left alone many times due to work conflicts and such.

 

I'm sorry Joanne. :( Wish I could help out more.

[Crissy]

I think what Crissy posted is good--she had a talk with her children about mutual respect. But perhaps your children need more instruction and help in this area because the former life was so off-kilter.

 

For me, it feels selfish/bizarre to be the one to teach my children about respecting me. It also feels very unfulfilling to have to explain those things.

 

Hmmm. That's interesting, Cassandra. What do you think it is about discussing respect that feels odd to you?

 

Please don't take my question as confrontational. I am genuinely curious.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

WOW! What is WRONG with this thread? SHe asked two very specific questions at the end of her post, and others are adding all sorts of other stuff into it. :confused: People post things here all the time, and they don't always like the responses. She did NOT ask if her kids were "ready" to be left at home, that decision is HERS to make and she didn't ask for that kind of advice.

Should we just tell everyone who posts with a "discipline issue" that they shouldn't have posted and they should just "deal with it"?

 

Hmm, maybe this: I feel like I've "known" Joanne for awhile now. And while I shouldn't assume this is some kind of virtual coffee shop where friends sit around chatting and throwing out ideas, I guess I do, particularly when I think I know how I will be perceived by a certain poster. Perhaps I feel that way because of how that poster has answered others in the past, with kindly-intentioned advice and offerings of more than one way of looking at an issue, or perhaps I just feel comfortable "chatting" with that person more informally that "just the facts, ma'am; stick to the question, please." This is the case for BOTH points for Joanne.

 

But I misjudged in this instance, perhaps because the topic is a touchy one, or perhaps, well, I was just wrong. (That has been known to happen once or twice for this loud-mouthed Pam!)

 

That's what happened with ME. I, too, read the original and said, "Woah. This is Joanne[ asking about boundaries and discipline here. Maybe I should look deeper at this and see if I have something to offer, perhaps an angle that she hasn't thought about. She's given me completely different perspectives on my family dynamic in the past, and I'm sure it would be ok to explore alternatives that pop into my mind."

 

And like if she was listening to me be sad about a hypothetical problem that one of my kids might have had at boarding school and she offered the thought that perhaps I should keep open the option of bringing them home and offered opinions and angles and options, I would expect that from her and welcome it, even if she misunderstood some detail or another. Because I would figure after all this time, she might "know" a bit about my family expectations, personality, parenting style, etc, and have something to offer.

 

And if she had just recently joined the boards but had an insight to give or another angle to ponder but completely missed the mark or didn't know my background, I could just read on and not really worry if the observations didn't apply to me. Someone who would, for example, assume that boarding school meant my family was troubled or dysfunctional -- well, that simply wouldn't apply to me. Sure, I could be offended, but honestly, that doesn't apply to our family, so it doesn't bother me a whole heck of a lot.

 

I'm just sorry what was said was not helpful. Those of us who read past the questions weren't deliberately trying to be intrusive or insulting, I don't think.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure if that answers your question.

[PariSarah]

WOW! What is WRONG with this thread? SHe asked two very specific questions at the end of her post, and others are adding all sorts of other stuff into it. :confused: People post things here all the time, and they don't always like the responses. She did NOT ask if her kids were "ready" to be left at home, that decision is HERS to make and she didn't ask for that kind of advice.

Should we just tell everyone who posts with a "discipline issue" that they shouldn't have posted and they should just "deal with it"?

 

Well, trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt: Joanne seems to have posted a "hey, I had this revelation--does anybody else ever feel this way?" post, and people misunderstood her long wind-up as a request for constructive critique. They gave it, and it touched a raw nerve. abbeyej's question wasn't a "just shut up" question: it reflected broader confusion over what Joanne really was looking for from us. The laborious detail over the problem, the lack of indication on how she was planning to deal with this ("So, I finally realized that I needed to tell them . . . ") made people think Joanne was asking something she really, really wasn't.

 

I've learned to expect that sort of thing, and I tend not to post the long wind-up exactly so that I don't get the unasked for advice. (I have a gracious-response-to-intrusiveness disability :o) Or, I jump in quickly and say, "Hey thanks, but you misunderstood--I'm really asking which company puts out the best Duke Blue hair dye. Not whether you think I should use it--that's already been decided."

[Robin in Tx]

According to Joanne, most of the respondes in this thread *were* totally unnecessary, and not at all appreciated. That's kinda the point...

[Joanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WTMCassandra

I think what Crissy posted is good--she had a talk with her children about mutual respect. But perhaps your children need more instruction and help in this area because the former life was so off-kilter.

 

For me, it feels selfish/bizarre to be the one to teach my children about respecting me. It also feels very unfulfilling to have to explain those things.

 

Hmmm. That's interesting, Cassandra. What do you think it is about discussing respect that feels odd to you?

 

Please don't take my question as confrontational. I am genuinely curious.

 

I can answer that for me. I've found it ... odd? weird? unexpected? to have to social coach my kids through some things that I assumed were a "given". How to react when daycare clients come/go. How to act when I am on the phone. How to initiate playing with a group of kids.

 

Maybe the above refers to a similar discomfort? I think sometimes it's weird when I expect a higher level of intuitiveness from my kids and realize, eventually, they need specific training on how to act in situations that seem like a no brainer to me.

 

Add a "mom respect" issue into the mix and it can be draining and possibly even exasperating to have to ask for appreciation, respect or courtesy.

 

Or, I could be totally off base. :-)

[Jami]

I don't know, Jenn, the original questions did not seem that straightforward to me. The original post started with the title "Kids expecting parents to be available 24/7" but then there was a lot of detailed information about past history and Joanne's experiences and growing frustrations all which seemed to answer her own questions at the end. It didn't ever really feel like she was wondering if things have changed or if her expectations for time alone were reasonable, she already believes they have and they are. So I, for one, was never sure what was being asked, since she answered herself in her initial information.

 

Joanne knows a lot about parenting, has given advice to others for years about these things. If the issue is basically that her children, who she thinks should know better than to call her unnecessarily when she's out, are abusing that, then yes, as Abbey said, it's a simple discipline/training issue. Which is how Joanne herself probably would have responded. It was the inclusion of such broad and loaded questions about time alone, parental accessibility, etc. that opened the door to other sorts of advice to be given. I think in this format you have to be clear what you want as anj pointed out...a general conversation about homeschool kids expectations of time with parents? Sure, let's have it. But then leave personal situations out it and it's less likely to get, well, personal.

 

I feel sorry that Joanne experienced such poor treatment at the hands of her ex-dh. :( But, her children, whether they imitate his demanding nature or not, are not adults, they may not yet know how to see their mother as anything but a mother. And I'm sorry, but that's natural. I'm not sure I see why children should be able to see their mother as woman apart from that role. Not that that means a mother shouldn't have time to pursue NON-MOTHERING things, but she doesn't cease to be a mother. I'm sure I was an adult before I could really appreciate my parents as individuals, as *fellow* adults. Doing non-mothering things and having an identity of woman separated from mother or wife is confusing to me. I'd be some other woman entirely without marriage and children.

[WTMCassandra]

This is hard to put into words and is probably my personal baggage. I just typed a bunch of stuff and erased it because it didn't make any sense. It's not that I feel it odd to discuss respect in general or respect of DH or whoever, but *me* talking to the children about respecting *me.* I'd rather that DH do that ; ). I've accepted more now that it is necessary, but I still feel weird about it. Anyhow, I don't want to hijack Joanne's thread. But thanks for asking.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

I've learned to expect that sort of thing, and I tend not to post the long wind-up exactly so that I don't get the unasked for advice. (I have a gracious-response-to-intrusiveness disability :o) Or, I jump in quickly and say, "Hey thanks, but you misunderstood--I'm really asking which company puts out the best Duke Blue hair dye. Not whether you think I should use it--that's already been decided."

 

And one thing to remember as well is that some people do not read the whole thread and the followup clarifications before posting a reply to the original post.

So it may be tiring to read "Well, I think Carolina Blue is a much nicer shade with your eye color. Would you consider a different formulation altogether?" a couple more times, but that doesn't mean the further offers of shade choice perspectives are unkindly meant.

 

Smile and wave, boys, smile and wave. (I forgot who just posted that yesterday.)

 

[And I think I completely misused "altogether." But I'm too lazy to look it up. So, sorry.]

[WTMCassandra]

Add a "mom respect" issue into the mix and it can be draining and possibly even exasperating to have to ask for appreciation, respect or courtesy.

 

 

Yes, Joanne, yes! Yes to all of your post, but especially what I have quoted. This is why I suggested you ask DH to help you handle some of it. I have asked my DH to do so on occasion.

 

I know that your DH is a step, so you might want to tread a little cautiously, but I'm thinking that he could at least answer the phone for you and run a little interference.

 

I just couldn't articulate my feelings about it to Crissy as well as you did. But your reaction resonates with me very closely.

[GothicGyrl]

This is hard to put into words and is probably my personal baggage. I just typed a bunch of stuff and erased it because it didn't make any sense. It's not that I feel it odd to discuss respect in general or respect of DH or whoever, but *me* talking to the children about respecting *me.* I'd rather that DH do that ; ). I've accepted more now that it is necessary, but I still feel weird about it. Anyhow, I don't want to hijack Joanne's thread. But thanks for asking.

Cassandra--I think I understand what you are saying, but to add something that: there is absolutely zero reason why teaching your children how to respect their mother should be left up to ONLY the father. None. Not only should the father be practicing said respect towards mom, but mom--herself--should never be afraid to say to the kids "dude, these are my boundaries, back off".

 

Elsewise, how are they going to learn to respect their own wives if mom never showed them how?

 

I only say this not knowing your situation. But I do completely know Joanne's. And in that context, I cannot fathom anyone not standing up to their kids disrespecting me, as their mother-the woman who gave birth to them AND expecting ONLY my DH to be the one to teach them that.

 

Does that make sense?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I can answer that for me. I've found it ... odd? weird? unexpected? to have to social coach my kids through some things that I assumed were a "given". How to react when daycare clients come/go. How to act when I am on the phone. How to initiate playing with a group of kids.

 

Maybe the above refers to a similar discomfort? I think sometimes it's weird when I expect a higher level of intuitiveness from my kids and realize, eventually, they need specific training on how to act in situations that seem like a no brainer to me.

 

Add a "mom respect" issue into the mix and it can be draining and possibly even exasperating to have to ask for appreciation, respect or courtesy.

 

Or, I could be totally off base. :-)

 

YES. I've modeled proper behavior for YEARS. How can they *not* know this? Where is the disconnect?

 

And yet, not only do/did my kids need explicit instruction, but they need specific role playing and coaching. "Ok, mom is on the phone. XYZ is happening. Do you interrupt?"

 

Sigh.

 

And then subsequent children come along. And I say, "Haven't I *had* this frickin' conversation five thousand times already?" Yeah. But not with this kid. And this kids a visual learner. Last kid was auditory, so this one needs a list, and with the last one a list would have thrown her into a tailspin.

 

So no. You're not off base. It's draining. It's exasperating. Unfortunately, it's necessary. It's why Calgon commercials from thirty years ago ("Take me away!") are still quoted and resonate.

 

My husband doesn't train about such issues. He just yells. (And he's generally a very good guy.) So I get to do it. "Say 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' You're welcome."

 

By the time they leave home, they sorta kinda get it, I think.

[WTMCassandra]

Oh yes, it certainly makes sense. How Joanne put it is much better than how I put it. I'm not trying to say that *only* the father should teach it, but in this case, since it's a hot button, I thought what helped me might help her: Ask DH to take some of the pressure off because it bugs her so much. It's the exasperation factor. I can and do enforce boundaries--but it can really get on my nerves. I understand what you are saying, though.

[PariSarah]

So I get to do it. "Say 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' 'Thank you, Mom, for making the dinner.' You're welcome."

 

My favorite part is doing this over, and over, and over, and over, and then having certain Boundaries-Challenged Relatives fuss at me for being too demanding. "Why does he have to say 'Thank you' every. single. time. with you? Why can't you ease up on him a bit?" "Why are you getting on his case? He can throw his food on the floor at my house if he doesn't want to eat it!"

 

:rolleyes:

[GothicGyrl]

Oh yes, it certainly makes sense. How Joanne put it is much better than how I put it. I'm not trying to say that *only* the father should teach it, but in this case, since it's a hot button, I thought what helped me might help her: Ask DH to take some of the pressure off because it bugs her so much. It's the exasperation factor. I can and do enforce boundaries--but it can really get on my nerves. I understand what you are saying, though.

I think though, being only the "step" parent, especially for men, it is sometimes hard for them to step up and say "Hey, mom needs some time, back off".. they should do that, but some men just can't.

 

Now, I don't get that vibe from Joanne's current though. He HAS stepped up a LOT more than the ex ever did, in fact, he stepped up right from the get go. So I don't think the DH, in this case, stepping up would help because he has so much already.

 

Now, though, I do think that instead of seperating the "attack", Joanne and DH should both stand up and say "Dude, OUR boundaries are being crossed". Instead of Just Joanne or Just DH. Kwim? That might work better, united, instead of it being one or the other.

[WTMCassandra]

Oh, yes, Pam and Pari-Sarah--I can relate to so much of these also. And the Boundaries-Challenged Relatives, too. Shudder.

[WTMCassandra]

Yes, I agree. I was just trying to help Joanne possibly defuse the annoyance when the phone rings by asking DH to answer it. Just so she doesn't have to answer it every. single. time. I'm talking about a stop-gap to help her cope while she's training her children not to call for frivolous stuff every 15 seconds.

[Melinda in VT]

I know one family that set out a treat for every half-hour the parents were going to be gone. If the half-hour went by and the kids didn't call the parents for a non-emergency, they got the treat.

 

Of course, this might make it more about them, when you are trying to teach them to respect you.

 

You might want to try setting aside some time when you are home when you are unavailable. "If I am in this chair reading with my headphones on, it means only disturb me if it's an emergency. An emergency involves blood, fire, or water." That would give them practice in putting your need for time alone over their need for immediate interaction.

[Peek a Boo]

I'm not sure I understand Joanne's first question:

Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

 

In society? Within the family? Within *our* family? I believe that making myself accessible is a GREAT thing. i do think cell phones have helped tremendously in that regard. I do think it is up to me to limit that accessibility as needed. My answer to Question 2 is detailed below in how we make that happen in our home.

 

I think Toni hit the nail on the head in Joanne's case:

 

the kids need to be Untrained.

 

They have been trained [by all the causes listed in your OP] to be really mom-focussed: by XH and by the LOTS of family time. Now, after them growing up for years in all that, they are being told to do exactly the opposite.

 

i do agree that it is most likely a simple discipline issue, but one thing that did bother me was:

 

"I hear the posts on kids going to bed without adult company. That might well be a contributing factor. I'm not sure that changes on my part are the solution or needed, but greater sensitivity and awareness of that as an issue will likely help."

 

Sometimes being sensitive and aware are simply not enough: they DO require action on our part --someone called it "get off your butt" parenting, where we really do hafta stop doing something that is convenient for us and make sure it is *effective* for them. I have really benefitted from that advice! That has made a world of difference for me :) If the 'discipline' is not working, we need to change how we are disciplining.

 

Yes, I think that as long as we have children in our care we do need to be accessible to them. But we have had to train them to respect those boundaries of individuality --and it's training, not telling. All the infernal practice practice practice. I liked what Terri maxwell mentioned: "we sat around watching each other eat popcorn so the kids could practice chewing w/ their mouths closed" LOL! I had never thought about that before. And like your "why don't they just understand basic social stuff"-- they simply don't. And it IS frustrating --but it's only frustrating if we continue to expect a result that we did not practice with them to achieve. It will require practice. Kinda like when we teach kids to sit still in the pews by starting off w/ small increments at home and building up the time. We do the same thing w/ training them to not call. UNtraining them to be away from mom, as toni put it. By starting w/ smaller increments of time away, sometimes just "room time" for 15 minutes to an hour at home. If just telling them worked we wouldn't feel so frustrated :-) Several people offered advice earlier in the thread that we also use to make that happen-- a list of expected things to be done at home, maybe something enjoyable while we are gone [special movie, treat], calls from US so they know we WILL call, etc.

 

That being said, i do agree that the ages of your kids might be fine for a couple hours, but I would encourage you to cut it short a bit and put them to bed until they are trained to not call. Not until they were consistently following boundaries at a "lower" level. i think pam was spot on in saying they might be ready, but obviously they AREN't ready. i don't think adjusting our date nights a bit here and there is an unreasonable thing, esp if we know that we are making progress that will have HUGE payoffs.

 

I am really glad your home life has improved so much! I have no doubt that regardless what people offer in this thread, you will glean anything you need and figure out a solution for your home. Good luck~

[FlockOfSillies]

Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

 

Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

 

I haven't perceived a change in either my level of accessibility or expectations of it, but that's because my kids are younger than yours (0-8 yrs. -- genuine littles) and because I've already been able to establish a pattern with them in this area. My dh and I go on "dates" quite frequently because we live close to both sets of grandparents. During the day, I have no qualms about telling the kids when I need alone time. I don't always express it properly :o but I do remind them not to nag.

 

Obviously, you didn't have that opportunity in your first marriage. I think what you're doing now with your new dh is healthy -- alone time for the two of you, as well as time with peers away from the kids. My ILs have been married happily for more than 50 years and I think part of the reason is that they have a wide social circle. My folks, on the other hand, have been married mostly unhappily for more than 35 years. They never went out together w/o us kids more than once or twice that I can remember, and their social circle was practically nonexistent. (Lots of dysfunctional history there.)

 

Some of the other posters have pointed out that your kids will only be young once, and eventually they'll be uber-busy teens who can hardly be bothered to give you the time of day. The flip side of that is this: when those kids are grown and gone -- and it always happens too fast -- you'll be alone w/ dh, and you need to have something more than "the kids" to keep you glued together.

 

I think that the boundaries you're trying to set for your nights out are perfectly appropriate, based on what you've told us in the past and in this thread. I can't believe I even have to say that, and frankly I'm a bit shocked that the majority of the responses you've gotten are on the "coddle your kids" side of the continuum.

 

Your kids don't have to be happy about your new social life, but they do have to respect it. It will take longer for them to get over it, given their established habits and mindset, but they'll be fine. It's important for them to see that your marriage is healthy; I've heard it said that the most important thing you can do for your kids is to have a good marriage.

 

In your shoes, I'd probably do something along these lines:

-- Give them The Speech about how things are going to be in this area from now on. Something including the idea that constant calls for no reason are considered "nagging" and "interrupting a conversation." In other words, it's rude.

-- Leave them a short checklist of reasons to call you when you're out. Call it the "Before you call Mom" list. Any calls/contact not arising from an acceptable reason will result in discipline.

-- Consider texting them or even calling them ONCE at their bedtime to say goodnight, to allay any spooky house fears that they have actually expressed to you. Remind them that your call does not give them permission to start bugging you. After all, they're going to bed, right?

 

I think what they're doing is really simple: when it comes to your attention, the more they have, the more they want. Want <> need.

 

That's my pair o' pennies.

[FlockOfSillies]

Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

 

Do you have similar feelings and experiences with your kids. Assuming you want time away and "space" and "breathing room", how have you made that happen?

 

I haven't perceived a change in either my level of accessibility or expectations of it, but that's because my kids are younger than yours (0-8 yrs. -- genuine littles) and because I've already been able to establish a pattern with them in this area. My dh and I go on "dates" quite frequently because we live close to both sets of grandparents. During the day, I have no qualms about telling the kids when I need alone time. I don't always express it properly :o but I do remind them not to nag.

 

Obviously, you didn't have that opportunity in your first marriage. I think what you're doing now with your new dh is healthy -- alone time for the two of you, as well as time with peers away from the kids. My ILs have been married happily for more than 50 years and I think part of the reason is that they have a wide social circle. My folks, on the other hand, have been married mostly unhappily for more than 35 years. They never went out together w/o us kids more than once or twice that I can remember, and their social circle was practically nonexistent. (Lots of dysfunctional history there.)

 

Some of the other posters have pointed out that your kids will only be young once, and eventually they'll be uber-busy teens who can hardly be bothered to give you the time of day. The flip side of that is this: when those kids are grown and gone -- and it always happens too fast -- you'll be alone w/ dh, and you need to have something more than "the kids" to keep you glued together.

 

I think that the boundaries you're trying to set for your nights out are perfectly appropriate, based on what you've told us in the past and in this thread. I can't believe I even have to say that, and frankly I'm a bit shocked that the majority of the responses you've gotten are on the "coddle your kids" side of the continuum.

 

Your kids don't have to be happy about your new social life, but they do have to respect it. It will take longer for them to get over it, given their established habits and mindset, but they'll be fine. It's important for them to see that your marriage is healthy; I've heard it said that the most important thing you can do for your kids is to have a good marriage.

 

In your shoes, I'd probably do something along these lines:

-- Give them The Speech about how things are going to be in this area from now on. Something including the idea that constant calls for no reason are considered "nagging" and "interrupting a conversation." In other words, it's rude.

-- Leave them a short checklist of reasons to call you when you're out. Call it the "Before you call Mom" list. Any calls/contact not arising from an acceptable reason will result in discipline.

-- Consider texting them or even calling them ONCE at their bedtime to say goodnight, to allay any spooky house fears that they have actually expressed to you. Remind them that your call does not give them permission to start bugging you. After all, they're going to bed, right?

 

I think what they're doing is really simple: when it comes to your attention, the more they have, the more they want. Want <> need.

 

That's my pair o' pennies.

[amy g.]

I read this entire thread....twice and still couldn't express what I wanted to say. My older kids are the same ages as yours, plus I have a clingy, still nursing 16 month old, so I completely understand your desire to have a little bit of uninterrupted adult time.

 

I asked my kids what they would think if I wanted to go out with their dad and leave them at home a couple of nights a week. While the two oldest agreed that It would be my right, and would only be fair since I spend all of my time with them now, they just could not understand why calling every few minutes might be a problem.

 

From their point of view, calling seemed obedient and respectful. My 13 year old said, "I think calling shows what good parenting they have had. Bad kids would just turn on the TV with out asking, and wouldn't care enough about the rules to tattle".

 

I thought it was interesting to get a kid's perspective.

[Caroline]

J

 

We've done Saturday morning dates before -- leave the kids to cartoons and cereal and/or some sleeping in. Same number of hours, still 7-12 maybe, but daylight rather than night. Afternoon, ditto.

 

 

 

I love this idea. I would never, in a million years, have thought of it. Thanks!

[Peek a Boo]

I think that the boundaries you're trying to set for your nights out are perfectly appropriate, based on what you've told us in the past and in this thread. I can't believe I even have to say that, and frankly I'm a bit shocked that the majority of the responses you've gotten are on the "coddle your kids" side of the continuum.

 

I agree with the first part of your quote.

I'm not seeing a "coddle your kids" response in this thread. I'm seeing a buncha gals offering ways they have "made it happen" --or disagreeing by sharing ways that they think it SHOULD happen in their family --Joanne did ask that. If she doesn't want to institute those ideas she sure doesn't have to. I'm sure Joanne receives a lot of "you're coddling your kids w/ AP" comments all the time. They aren't appropriate there and they aren't appropriate in this thread towards ladies who are offering what works for them.

 

But she DID share that there is a new problem in dynamics w/ her kids.

 

She wants that to change.

 

She asked about how people make it happen in their house.

 

To expect kids to change immediately [esp after what they've been through w/ XH then and now, and the complete 180 that has happened], w/o struggle or repercussions is simply not healthy for anyone IMNSHO. Will the kids cope if Joanne continues her new routine w/ dh? Yeah. "kids are resilient" --we hear that everywhere all the time. Well, maybe not at the juvenile detention center ;-P Will it be in a way that will be beneficial for the family in the next few years? Nobody knows that for sure, but resentful feelings are the basis for a lot of family and societal problems --whether those feelings of resentment are more perceived or actual is another question, but they have similar results. I would absolutely work *now* to prevent either one. As I mentioned --it will have HUGE payoffs down the road.

 

Everyone knows that Joanne is a GREAT parent. But she's still human, like all of us. And chastising posters who are sincerely trying to help a problem that IS shared publicly [by responding to the "how do you make that happen" question] makes no sense to me.

[FlockOfSillies]

Peek, I think you misunderstand me a little. (Note to self: stop posting serious stuff at 2 a.m.) If you go back and read what you quoted of my response, you'll see that I thought the advice Joanne was getting was that she SHOULD coddle her kids, and I disagree with that advice.

 

I came to this thread pretty late in the game. I read Joanne's initial post and thought that what she was really looking for was to give herself permission to do something normal and healthy, after so many years of the opposite. Her kids need to see normal and healthy being lived out, even if it means temporary struggle. Contrary to what you implied in your response, I DO expect kids to struggle with change, especially if they've gotten accustomed to being the center of Mom's universe. Not everyone's responses to Joanne were unhelpful, and I wasn't singling anyone out. But not every response was of the "this is how we made it work" variety. A lot of them were "you shouldn't do this at all" flavor.

 

I guess if I were in Joanne's specific shoes, I would be less willing to "wean" my kids from their selfish expectations than others on this board. I'm more of a "cold turkey" kind of person in this area. But I don't do AP (surprise!) and I think Joanne's kids are old enough to recognize that their demands and potential resentment are unreasonable, once they've had it explained to them broken-record style.

 

I do tend to assume that everyone here means well and sincerely wants to help. That's partly why I was so surprised by some of the responses Joanne got.

[DB in NJ]

I completely agree with this. Well said.

[kalanamak]

Since I've started going out regularly with my DH a couple of nights a week, a dynamic with my kids has been made apparent.

<snip>

 

The first question is general: Do you perceive a change in what you consider to be the acceptable and expected level of accessibility?

 

 

I think cell phones and kids no longer walking to school or roaming the neighborhood with bikes etc. is all part of this.

 

When I was a kid, if I whined or cried for something it was a SURE thing I was not going to get it. If a kid wants something and their interruption was not situation AND age appropriate, they ain't getting it. If it something required, I do as little as I can, with brief comment about how kiddo can do the rest because he was impatient. It is working wonders.

[Jan in SC]

My kids are too young now, but I'm thinking that charging a $1 per call might help! You might make enough money for a couple of extra hands.

Good Luck!

[Peek a Boo]

"Peek, I think you misunderstand me a little. (Note to self: stop posting serious stuff at 2 a.m.) If you go back and read what you quoted of my response, you'll see that I thought the advice Joanne was getting was that she SHOULD coddle her kids, and I disagree with that advice."

 

--yeah-- I got that part :) {{and I think you posted just fine at 2am, lol}} I simply disagree w/ your assertion that the advice given by others was "coddling" -- i think there's a difference between coddling and training. I do perceive that more weaning DOES need to take place. We call that training, not necessarily weaning. But it is the same concept.

 

"I came to this thread pretty late in the game. I read Joanne's initial post and thought that what she was really looking for was to give herself permission to do something normal and healthy, after so many years of the opposite. Her kids need to see normal and healthy being lived out, even if it means temporary struggle. Contrary to what you implied in your response, I DO expect kids to struggle with change, especially if they've gotten accustomed to being the center of Mom's universe. Not everyone's responses to Joanne were unhelpful, and I wasn't singling anyone out. But not every response was of the "this is how we made it work" variety. A lot of them were "you shouldn't do this at all" flavor."

 

I came to this thread late too --it really took awhile to process all the different replies --there's a LOT here! I do understand that *you* expect the kids to struggle with Joanne's situation. I posit that even w/ her cutting back date nights to work on training them, they are STILL struggling. Training itself means there's a struggle being addressed. I don't recall seeing too many people say Joanne "shouldn't do this at all" --i read quite a few that did suggest cutting back. I'm all for letting my kids struggle --but not when it's a struggle that will do them [or the family future] more harm than good. That's akin to letting them have free choice in everything. We limit their struggles and choices cuz that's what parenting *is* --training them bit by bit to become strong independent courteous people. But without that training they only have a kid's experience and perception to rely on. And their previous training up to now tells them to "call mom."

 

I'm not an AP kinda gal either lol. My kids have never bugged me by phone --but we haven't tossed them in deep waters w/o teaching them. It's been a slow process. And I love the results. I bet Joanne would too :)

[Tammyla]

Oh, gosh. I just glanced back and read many (Not All.) of the responses and posts. (I do and did respond without reading the entire thread.) My not so clear post was meant to answer the original question.

 

I do leave my kids alone now, and in the past with sitters. I've always made an effort to make it a good time for them too. I leave a craft, special dvd, pop-corn and pizza to make it a fun night, morning or afternoon. The effort makes it a win-win for me, my date(dh) and kiddos. If it's a night out, we are always home to tuck them in.

 

Kids are different, families are different, and we all know that. You gotta to find what works best in your home. ;)

 

Blessings~

[Janna]

Thanks,

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Thanks,

 

Attachment parenting.

[*anj*]

Attachment Parenting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_parenting