If someone isn't legally registered as a homeschooler...

[DawnM]

Homeschoolers?  Yes.  I guess so.  But still truant from school.

 

When I was in our HS scout troop, we required a few things, but we only let those who were legally HSing in.  This was in large part due to the bi-laws.  BSA said if we wanted to be a HS only unit, we had to only take those who were legally HSing, OR we had to let everyone in.  So we were pretty strict about it because of that.

 

[skimomma]

18 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

There are lots of things that are determined at a state level in the United States.  It isn't comical to understand that.  There are differing laws, for example on when someone can get married.  If you are sixteen and "married" in a state that does not recognize sixteen year olds as being able to marry, then you are not married unless you had gone to a state where it is legal and followed their laws.  And even then it only applies because states recognize the marriage certificates from other states even if the marriage laws are different.  It doesn't matter if the sixteen year old insists that she is married because she's "practicing marriage".  In the case of schooling, if you move from one state to another,you then need to follow the homeschooling laws for that state.  (Though I don't know if there are rules on the timing of when you register in the new state if they require registration.) 

 

I see what you are saying and I do not disagree with your points.  The OP asked if we (people here) consider registration when deciding if someone is a "true homeschooler" and I'm just saying that *I* do not and why.  Registering as a homeschooler is not "educating" and one can be not "educating" and still register.  So, I do not consider, and likely would never even know, if someone is registered if I lived in a state where registering was even a thing.....which I do not.  That's all.  

[SKL]

10 hours ago, Ellie said:

Why would you assume that? For example, New Jersey has nothing--no law on the books that defines "homeschooling" and no requirements of any kind. California and Texas have no laws on the books that define "homeschooling," although they do have court cases which decided that homeschoolers are the equivalent of unaccredited private schools, but there's still nothing that *defines* "homeschooling."

So home schoolers get no exception to the truancy laws?  Or does the state not have truancy laws?
If a parent decided not to provide any education to a child, there is nothing the state can do about it?

Court cases are law btw.

[Greta]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

So home schoolers get no exception to the truancy laws?  Or does the state not have truancy laws?
If a parent decided not to provide any education to a child, there is nothing the state can do about it?

Court cases are law btw.

 

I was just going to ask about that - if a state doesn't define homeschooling or recognize it as a distinct thing, then how does it distinguish homeschooling from truancy?  That seems very problematic.

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why has the US not managed to get consistent laws across states? Have you not tried (I find that hard to comprehend) or has it just been too hard?  You have the same president and are in the same country but reading here there seems to be a lack of cohesion.

Because they are sovereign States and there are states' rights. It is why we have a Constitution, which spells out the things which belong to the federal government, and everything else belongs to the States.

[Ellie]

16 minutes ago, Greta said:

 

I was just going to ask about that - if a state doesn't define homeschooling or recognize it as a distinct thing, then how does it distinguish homeschooling from truancy?  That seems very problematic.

Exactly.

[Ellie]

20 minutes ago, SKL said:

So home schoolers get no exception to the truancy laws?  Or does the state not have truancy laws?
If a parent decided not to provide any education to a child, there is nothing the state can do about it?

Court cases are law btw.

There are truancy laws in each state. But without a clearly defined homeschool law, the state has to figure out if a child is really "truant."

[Dmmetler]

16 hours ago, StellaM said:

Adding, there is very rarely any dysfunction* in families I observe who are engaged in homeschooling but unregistered. Most unregistered families have religious or philosophical objections to registration. 

Families who call themselves homeschoolers, do not actively home educate, and are unregistered ? Literally in 16 years I have never come across such a family. If they are not home educating, they are unlikely to be found at park days, group lessons, co-op etc. 

*at least, not more than in registered families.

 

 

Because my state has multiple routes, and you can register through a cover school, those who have objections to registering with the public schools can register with a program that fits their philosophical needs-there is a range of options.  It tends to be more a “life is so hectic and struggling that it just wasn’t a priority to write out what we’re doing and send it in”, at least among the people who show up at Park Day or coop. For example, I know a family that missed it for a year when mom was undergoing chemotherapy, but the kids still came to co-op regularly. The following year, when things were more stable, they enrolled the kids in an online program. 

[Innisfree]

5 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why has the US not managed to get consistent laws across states? Have you not tried (I find that hard to comprehend) or has it just been too hard?  You have the same president and are in the same country but reading here there seems to be a lack of cohesion.

The original colonies had long, separate histories and cultures before the Revolution and before the Constitution. Think of the different countries in Europe uniting into the European Union: obviously the divisions there are longer and deeper, but the thought process was similar. There were disagreements over how much power and authority should be given to the federal government as opposed to left to the states. States were very unwilling to sacrifice local control, because different regions had different needs, histories, cultures and resources.

The eventual decision left all powers not specifically awarded to the federal government as belonging to the states; hence, the various later strong feelings over the concept of states' rights.

This is all long ago, but state identities remain strong and distinct. Voter decisions in states may be quite different, and the impulse to keep control over many issues at state level remains powerful.

[G5052]

16 hours ago, texasmom33 said:

So in a state that requires registration of some sort, what is the penalty for NOT registering? Is it like a warning or a ticket, or more like they put you in jail? I'd assume you'd only be found out if there was some other red flag like CPS or nosy neighbors reporting as truant? Just wondering how it works. 

 

In my state it is a truancy issue, and yes, you can go to jail.

The local sheriff is the enforcer, but they don't go looking for that.

[shinyhappypeople]

And here we go again.

Child Abuse Case in California Spotlights Lack of Oversight in Homeschooling

The lack of critical thinking on the part of those who would increase homeschool regulations is appalling.  

The family did not comply with simple homeschool regulations, therefore it is safe to assume that they would not have complied with stricter homeschool regulations.  We could not have legislated this situation out of existence.  Enrollment in a conventional school would not have prevented this.  THINK.  

To our legislators I have this to say:  I've made hundreds of phone calls to you and your colleagues.  I've gone up to Sacramento more than once.  I've stood in line for hours to voice my opposition to increased regulations.  I will do it again in.a.heartbeat.  Go ahead.  Test me.

[Happy2BaMom]

I don't understand.....there is a call for the press to determine & label which families clearly qualify as "homeschoolers" (how exactly are they supposed to determine that in states where homeschoolers don't even have to register or submit any documentation?), yet homeschoolers themselves refuse to draw clear lines between those parents who follow the homeschool laws/regulations in their own state and who actually educate their own chidren and those parents who don't (e.g. everyone participates in the same coops/activities; no one actively questions who is and isn't doing what is required; and - if the subject comes up - many homeschoolers knowingly support or accept other parents who openly refuse to comply with even the most basic state requirements). Which is all fine, but then you can't really complain when the general public (or the press) lumps all "homeschoolers" together. The homeschool community itself doesn't have a clear definition. 

[Targhee]

3 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I don't understand.....there is a call for the press to determine & label which families clearly qualify as "homeschoolers" (how exactly are they supposed to determine that in states where homeschoolers don't even have to register or submit any documentation?), yet homeschoolers themselves refuse to draw clear lines between those parents who follow the homeschool laws/regulations in their own state and who actually educate their own chidren and those parents who don't (e.g. everyone participates in the same coops/activities; no one actively questions who is and isn't doing what is required; and - if the subject comes up - many homeschoolers knowingly support or accept other parents who openly refuse to comply with even the most basic state requirements). Which is all fine, but then you can't really complain when the general public (or the press) lumps all "homeschoolers" together. The homeschool community itself doesn't have a clear definition. 

Fair point. 

[Greta]

33 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I don't understand.....there is a call for the press to determine & label which families clearly qualify as "homeschoolers" (how exactly are they supposed to determine that in states where homeschoolers don't even have to register or submit any documentation?), yet homeschoolers themselves refuse to draw clear lines between those parents who follow the homeschool laws/regulations in their own state and who actually educate their own chidren and those parents who don't (e.g. everyone participates in the same coops/activities; no one actively questions who is and isn't doing what is required; and - if the subject comes up - many homeschoolers knowingly support or accept other parents who openly refuse to comply with even the most basic state requirements). Which is all fine, but then you can't really complain when the general public (or the press) lumps all "homeschoolers" together. The homeschool community itself doesn't have a clear definition. 

 

Yeah, that is a good point. 

[Ellie]

2 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

And here we go again.

Child Abuse Case in California Spotlights Lack of Oversight in Homeschooling

The lack of critical thinking on the part of those who would increase homeschool regulations is appalling.  

The family did not comply with simple homeschool regulations, therefore it is safe to assume that they would not have complied with stricter homeschool regulations.  We could not have legislated this situation out of existence.  Enrollment in a conventional school would not have prevented this.  THINK.  

To our legislators I have this to say:  I've made hundreds of phone calls to you and your colleagues.  I've gone up to Sacramento more than once.  I've stood in line for hours to voice my opposition to increased regulations.  I will do it again in.a.heartbeat.  Go ahead.  Test me.

From the article:

Quote

In the Turpin case, the family registered with the state to home-school their children, which should have prompted a mandatory inspection by the local fire department. But that never took place. A spokesman for the city said the state failed to notify it that the Turpins were operating a school out of their home.

Uh, no, there are no requirements for "mandatory inspection by the local fire department." And the "spokesman for the city" should know that there is no requirement for the state to notify the city that someone is operating a private school out of his home. Goodness. This is why you almost cannot believe anything you hear (or read) unless you were there in person and saw it happen.

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I don't understand.....there is a call for the press to determine & label which families clearly qualify as "homeschoolers" (how exactly are they supposed to determine that in states where homeschoolers don't even have to register or submit any documentation?), yet homeschoolers themselves refuse to draw clear lines between those parents who follow the homeschool laws/regulations in their own state and who actually educate their own chidren and those parents who don't (e.g. everyone participates in the same coops/activities; no one actively questions who is and isn't doing what is required; and - if the subject comes up - many homeschoolers knowingly support or accept other parents who openly refuse to comply with even the most basic state requirements). Which is all fine, but then you can't really complain when the general public (or the press) lumps all "homeschoolers" together. The homeschool community itself doesn't have a clear definition. 

Of course I "refuse to draw clear lines" of any kind (except--and this is a hot topic--the line between private homeschoolers and those whose children are enrolled in public charter schools, because legally, those children are public school students, not privately homeschooled students). If I happened to know that someone had not complied with the law (if any), I might advise her to do so, but I don't know what kind of "clear line" I should draw here. She's teaching her children at home. Possibly the children are "truant," but she's still homeschooling. I might notice if her children are functionally illiterate, but in my over 30 years of homeschooling I have seen any number of children who by some standards were not being educated but who did quite well as adults. I'm not going to say that people who buy a box of books from ABeka and do every day just like school are really homeschoolers while the unschoolers/eclectic people are not.

The general public has no clue what homeschooling is. They don't know what the homeschool laws (if any) are in their states. Homeschoolers could toe the line and do every.single.thing they're supposed to do by law and non-homeschoolers are still not going to get it.

[Garga]

16 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why has the US not managed to get consistent laws across states? Have you not tried (I find that hard to comprehend) or has it just been too hard?  You have the same president and are in the same country but reading here there seems to be a lack of cohesion.

 

It’s in the name:  the United States of America.  We’re not “America.”  We are the United States of America.  

We’re a group of separate States that have all joined together in a union. In our civil war, a bunch of states wanted to secede from the union.  They changed their name to the Confederate States of America.  Every now and then you hear rumblings from people in Texas or California saying they might not want to be part of the union anymore.  

Obviously, we’re so united that the idea of a state leaving the union is almost preposterous, but at the heart of it, we are a group of separate states and our entire government is based on keeping certain governing decisions with the state government vs with the federal government.

[HS Mom in NC]

20 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why has the US not managed to get consistent laws across states? Have you not tried (I find that hard to comprehend) or has it just been too hard?  You have the same president and are in the same country but reading here there seems to be a lack of cohesion.

America has lots of subcultures and some of them are regional.  Remember that the US is roughly the same size as Europe and has had immigration from all over the world for a long time, so cohesion isn't something anyone should expect.  Here's a map and article that show some it: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-11-nations-of-the-united-states-2015-7   
 

[klmama]

Interesting. It explains a lot about the differences between where I was raised and where I live now.  

[scoutingmom]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

America has lots of subcultures and some of them are regional.  Remember that the US is roughly the same size as Europe and has had immigration from all over the world for a long time, so cohesion isn't something anyone should expect.  Here's a map and article that show some it: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-11-nations-of-the-united-states-2015-7   
 

Should I point out that the map includes Southern portions of Canada as well as Mexico....?    We are not the 51st and 52nd States.....

[brehon]

The map shows the subcultures that make up the US, at least according to the author. It isn’t meant to designate those parts of Canada and Mexico as legally a part of the US. He’s drawn a distinction between sovereign political states and cultural nations. 

 

[SKL]

7 hours ago, scoutingmom said:

Should I point out that the map includes Southern portions of Canada as well as Mexico....?    We are not the 51st and 52nd States.....

The article title was misleading - they are actually talking about North America in the cited book.

[Dmmetler]

And really, if we turned in "Unregistered homeschoolers", what would the results be?

Take my friend with cancer who missed registration (and admittedly, didn't homeschool much that year). If she had been forced to send the kids to school, they probably still wouldn't have learned much that year-critically ill parent who is in and out of the hospital doesn't lend itself to it. And they would have missed the chance to be with mom on her good days. In her case, she did go into remission, but that was by no means assured.

 

Most folks I know who do not register are struggling with seasons of life issues. And those would have spilled over to other parts of life even if the kids had been in PS.

 

For the homeschoolers who are off grid due to religious or philosophical reasons, and who are honestly neglecting their kids, maybe it would help-but if such folks exist here, they don't come to park day and brag about being unregistered. It usually has been more like "Someone mentions that they need to send in their grades for the fall term, person who missed registration gasps and realizes that "oops, I totally forgot about that", everyone reassures them that it's understandable and the cover school will work with them".

[HS Mom in NC]

9 hours ago, scoutingmom said:

Should I point out that the map includes Southern portions of Canada as well as Mexico....?    We are not the 51st and 52nd States.....

The article is about cultural influences.  Cultural influences don't stop abruptly at national borders.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

The article title was misleading - they are actually talking about North America in the cited book.

Yes, the book does talk about North America, but the article is only focusing on the influences in the US. I don't think that's misleading.

[Happy2BaMom]

14 hours ago, Ellie said:

Of course I "refuse to draw clear lines" of any kind (except--and this is a hot topic--the line between private homeschoolers and those whose children are enrolled in public charter schools, because legally, those children are public school students, not privately homeschooled students). If I happened to know that someone had not complied with the law (if any), I might advise her to do so, but I don't know what kind of "clear line" I should draw here. She's teaching her children at home. Possibly the children are "truant," but she's still homeschooling. I might notice if her children are functionally illiterate, but in my over 30 years of homeschooling I have seen any number of children who by some standards were not being educated but who did quite well as adults. I'm not going to say that people who buy a box of books from ABeka and do every day just like school are really homeschoolers while the unschoolers/eclectic people are not.

The general public has no clue what homeschooling is. They don't know what the homeschool laws (if any) are in their states. Homeschoolers could toe the line and do every.single.thing they're supposed to do by law and non-homeschoolers are still not going to get it.

 

Well, I think you've only strengthened the point I was/am making. Homeschoolers like fuzzy lines and don't want clear ones. That's fine. 

But then why expect - or get huffy - that others - not even in the community - are doing the same? They may not "get it", but as a community, we're certainly not making it any easier, and in fact, most homeschoolers get very huffy about anyone anywhere trying to draw lines. Fine. But the end result is a big lumping-together. Why complain about others when we do the same? It's demanding that others adhere to a standard that we don't hold. 

And in several states, it's still fuzzy as to who exactly qualifies as a homeschooler. I'm not even sure if that information is public-access. Can the press demand to see homeschool registrations? (Can you imagine the outcry over that?) Where are those homeschool registrations kept - at the state level? The local level? What about states that don't require registration? 

 

[scoutingmom]

16 hours ago, SKL said:

The article title was misleading - they are actually talking about North America in the cited book.

So the book isn't wrong, but the article is.

16 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

It was talking about regional cultural similarities, which don’t follow state or even country boundary lines, but rather commonalities among the people living there.

 

I get that.  I'm not complaining about the info, but the title.  

14 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

The article is about cultural influences.  Cultural influences don't stop abruptly at national borders.

 

So the title should say North America, not the United States.