Please explain to me the "absent-minded professor" phenomenon.

[ktgrok]

Also, I think "normal" people can think and chew gum at the same time. Me, not so much. So even when they are thinking about things they still get their shirt on the right way and pick the kids up at school at the right time. 

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

So what's the "absent-minded" part?

The "absent-minded professor" types I know (some of whom are actual professors) are brilliant in their fields, but are generally messy, disorganized, forgetful, have little sense of time, etc.  Often whatever bandwidth they have is used at work, where they stay just organized enough to survive, while the rest of their lives are much more disorganized and they generally rely heavily on assistants – a secretary or executive assistant in business, a grad assistant at university, a spouse at home, etc. A good friend of mine was an anthro prof at a UC; he was a great teacher, but he was always running out of gas because he would forget to put gas in the car, or he'd have on two different shoes, or he'd burn up the coffee pot because he forgot to put water in it (or he'd make hot water because he forgot the coffee), he'd forget where he left his keys/wallet/briefcase/lunch, forget where he parked his car (or that someone else had actually given him a ride and his car wasn't there), forget to pick up his son from school because he lost track of time, etc.

After DS was tested we asked the psychologist what she thought would be some good careers for him. She said he should consider becoming a professor because of his ability to retain and mentally manipulate such a tremendous amount of information/knowledge. Then there was a slight pause and she added "But he'd need a good assistant to keep him organized and on track."

[ktgrok]

9 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

After DS was tested we asked the psychologist what she thought would be some good careers for him. She said he should consider becoming a professor because of his ability to retain and mentally manipulate such a tremendous amount of information/knowledge. Then there was a slight pause and she added "But he'd need a good assistant to keep him organized and on track."

I would LOVE a personal assistant! 

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, I think "normal" people can think and chew gum at the same time. Me, not so much. So even when they are thinking about things they still get their shirt on the right way and pick the kids up at school at the right time. 

Yes, and even a certain level of spaciness and messiness can still be "normal," without getting into ADD territory. For example, if I'm really lost in thought while driving (because driving is super boring), I sometimes find myself at the fencing club instead of gymnastics, or the grocery store instead of the post office, because I was just on autopilot and went the way I "always go" without consciously thinking about where I was supposed to be going. I also tend to have a messy house because I hate housecleaning, but I'm perfectly capable of creating and maintaining a well organized house. I just don't wanna, because it's boring and I can think of a million more interesting things to do instead. I think it's easy for people who don't have ADD to assume that having ADD is not fundamentally different from their own occasional spaciness or messiness or whatever, just a bit worse. And since they can do better if they want to, then people with ADD can, too — if they just cared about it or tried harder. Which is super frustrating and upsetting for people who are already trying as hard as they can but can't do better without extensive help — and even then they will not achieve "normal," because they do not have NT brains. 

[Garga]

31 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Yes, and even a certain level of spaciness and messiness can still be "normal," without getting into ADD territory. For example, if I'm really lost in thought while driving (because driving is super boring), I sometimes find myself at the fencing club instead of gymnastics, or the grocery store instead of the post office, because I was just on autopilot and went the way I "always go" without consciously thinking about where I was supposed to be going. I also tend to have a messy house because I hate housecleaning, but I'm perfectly capable of creating and maintaining a well organized house. I just don't wanna, because it's boring and I can think of a million more interesting things to do instead. I think it's easy for people who don't have ADD to assume that having ADD is not fundamentally different from their own occasional spaciness or messiness or whatever, just a bit worse. And since they can do better if they want to, then people with ADD can, too — if they just cared about it or tried harder. Which is super frustrating and upsetting for people who are already trying as hard as they can but can't do better without extensive help — and even then they will not achieve "normal," because they do not have NT brains. 

Yes, this is the difference.  I don’t have ADD and I don’t keep up with my house.  But if I wanted to, I could.  I just don’t want to.  But for people with ADD, they want to and cannot.  

The main reason we first put my son on ADD meds is because his self-esteem was taking HUGE hits because he felt like a screw up all the time.  He wanted to do the right thing and could not.  Not that he wanted to do the right thing and did not: he could not.  There’s a difference. 

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

DSM-IV criteria for ADD-Inattentive diagnosis is FIVE of the following NINE symptoms (6 if under age 17), at least some of which (not necessarily all) must be present in at least two settings and which interfere with, or reduce the quality of, social, academic, or occupational functioning:

- often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or during other activities (e.g. overlooks or misses details, work is inaccurate).
- often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities (e.g., has difficulty remaining focused during lectures, conversations, or lengthy reading).
- often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly (e.g., mind seems elsewhere, even in the absence of any obvious distraction).
- often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish school work, chores, or duties in the work place (e.g., starts tasks but quickly loses focus and is easily sidetracked).
- often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities (e.g., difficulty managing sequential tasks; difficulty keeping materials and belongings in order; messy, disorganized work; has poor time management; fails to meet deadlines).
- often avoids or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (e.g. schoolwork or homework; for older adolescents and adults, preparing reports, completing forms, reviewing lengthy papers).
- often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (e.g., school materials, pencils, books, tools, wallets, keys, paperwork, eyeglasses, mobile telephones). 
- is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli (e.g., for older adolescents and adults may include unrelated thoughts).
- is often forgetful in daily activities (e.g., doing chores, running errands; for older adolescents and adults, returning calls, paying bills, keeping appointments).

Most of these are executive function issues, and the "difficulty in sustaining attention" does not preclude the possibility of hyperfocus, which actually tends to be quite common in highly intelligent people with ADD.

Bingo. Also for a child to be diagnosed with ADHD the symptoms have to have been present before age 12. Unless it's developed later in an adult (and that can happen) it usually starts showing up early if you know what it looks like,but is often not diagnosed until school age simply because it's easier to spot once expected school behavior is required. This is why some people think it's something teachers/schools/parents made up to make it easier on themselves.

It's also not something one grows out of though how it manifests can change. Often the hyperactivity slows down or disappears in someone who has hyperactive-impulsive or combined type. Also as a person with ADHD matures they might learn better how to manage it, but they in all likelihood will always have some form of it. Some people have a type severe enough that even with management techniques it doesn't improve with age. I truly wish people would stop thinking of ADHD as something made up to keep kids quiet, something that can be fixed, or something that always can be treated without medication. 

Some types of diabetes can be treated without insulin. Some need oral insulin, and some require injections. Some types of ADHD are mild enough that teaching some organizing techniques are all that's need, some can be treated with CBT or self-taught behavorial changes, some need medication.

 

3 hours ago, Katy said:

 

Yes.  I think so.  When I was reading about it I remember reading a couple different books about how ADHD is essentially a symptom of something else going on in the brain, and there were several different known sorts of problems that could cause it.  Giftedness was one reason.  I think there may have been 8+ others.

Others I can remember off the top of my head because they are common issues that affect foster children:

• Trauma (when your brain is in survival mode you're not going to focus on anything but escaping potential threats, this will often cease when the child has been in a stable, safe, and calm environment with consistent boundaries for about 6 months)
• Brain damage (frontal lobe injury, may never improve but you can adjust boundaries and expectations)
• Prenatal exposure (alcohol is the worst, some drugs such as meth are causal too, this sort typically requires different parenting methods and expectations)
• Recent drug exposure

 

I don't think I still have the books I read this in, but I'll go and try to google and figure it out. 

ADHD is not a symptom of something else going on in the brain but is a separate recognized disorder in the DSM and has been since its second edition of the manual (though it's been through a few name changes). What's 'going on in the brain' are chemical deficiencies. Also you forgot one in your list of causes - genetics. ADHD does tend to run in families though each family member who has it might not have the same type. There are 3 types of adhd -inattentive, hyperactive-impulsive,  and combined.

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Neither CBT nor parental scaffolding "improve ADHD" — they provide techniques to help the person cope with the effects of ADHD, but they cannot physically change the structure of the brain or repair defective dopamine receptor sites. Meds can temporarily improve the symptoms by raising dopamine levels, but they don't change the actual underlying conditions.

 

Exactly.  I've also read that the meds don't necessarily increase dopamine levels but help the person use the (small amount of) dopamine they have more efficiently. Whichever it is, it's still just temporary. When the meds wear off, so does their effect. It doesn't build up in the system. (I know you know this but am just using your post to agree and add to what you said).

[Lady Florida.]

50 minutes ago, Garga said:

 

The main reason we first put my son on ADD meds is because his self-esteem was taking HUGE hits because he felt like a screw up all the time.  He wanted to do the right thing and could not.  Not that he wanted to do the right thing and did not: he could not.  There’s a difference. 

This is so important. Some people don't think a diagnosis is necessary because they don't want to "label" their child. Or they think having a dx is an excuse for the behavior. No. Its not an excuse. It's an explanation and that explanation can do wonders for a child's (or even adult's) self esteem. They know there's a reason for the way they are. They aren't just not trying hard enough or always screwing up. 

[Ausmumof3]

I think aside from the Add issue it's also related to a N and P personality combinations on the Myer Brigg thing.  Being more internally focussed and more likely to perceive many alternative things that could be done at any moment in time.

I think it's especially challenging as a mum because not only are there so many parts to managing a typical mum role and so much judgment when you fail, also our kids often share our tendencies. Which means we're struggling to manage our own lives and then we need enough extra executive functioning skills to help our kids compensate for

their defects as well.  It's exhausting!

[ktgrok]

I've never been diagnosed, but I do fit at least 6 of the criteria listed, and yes, the heavily impact my life. I can't do meds while breastfeeding anyway I would think, but something to consider one day maybe. 

And I do have both the N and P in my type...INFP. 

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

I've also read that the meds don't necessarily increase dopamine levels but help the person use the (small amount of) dopamine they have more efficiently. Whichever it is, it's still just temporary. When the meds wear off, so does their effect. It doesn't build up in the system. (I know you know this but am just using your post to agree and add to what you said).

It's both — they don't increase the total amount of dopamine the body produces, but they increase the amount of dopamine circulating in the brain by blocking reuptake. 

[ktgrok]

So....showed the criteria to my husband and he was like..um, this is totally you. You need meds. I am nursing so that's not an option right now, but now I'm wondering....is this why life is 100 percent better when I take Sudafed? It's supposed to be a stimulant but it eases anxiety in me, makes me feel less foggy, and generally makes life better. (no, I don't take it recreationally, I have allergies, but the thought has crossed my mind, lol)

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I've never been diagnosed, but I do fit at least 6 of the criteria listed, and yes, the heavily impact my life. I can't do meds while breastfeeding anyway I would think, but something to consider one day maybe. 

And I do have both the N and P in my type...INFP. 

You and me both sister!

although I flip between p and t on the tests all the time!

ive read that this is the most common type for Add diagnosis!

[ktgrok]

oh man...I looked it up and Ritalin is an L2 and considered compatible with breastfeeding. Wow. That's something to think about. My sister actually just went on meds and is in love with them, and she's WAY more functional than I am. Like, in comparison to me she's totally normal. I'm that bad. Hell. So...like if I took meds I might be able to take library books back on time or pay bills or remember to take my heartburn meds (of course, I'd have to remember the ADD meds....hmm...)????

[Garga]

16 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

oh man...I looked it up and Ritalin is an L2 and considered compatible with breastfeeding. Wow. That's something to think about. My sister actually just went on meds and is in love with them, and she's WAY more functional than I am. Like, in comparison to me she's totally normal. I'm that bad. Hell. So...like if I took meds I might be able to take library books back on time or pay bills or remember to take my heartburn meds (of course, I'd have to remember the ADD meds....hmm...)????

 

My DH started taking them at age 42 and he said it was just amazing.  He could focus for the first time in his life.  He went to work and read through a whole bunch of emails...all in a row!  Without stopping!  

My son started them soon after, but he was only 7.  The day before he took the meds, it had taken him an hour, with continuous prodding from me, to get his math worksheet done.  The first day he took the meds: 15 minutes.  No prodding.  

They'll wear off after about 7-8 hours and you'll have to take them early in the day or they can affect your ability to fall asleep...but if you get on the right meds at the right dose, it'll change things for you.  (Note: we were lucky that the first med and dose we tried worked.) 

You'll have to think about it pretty carefully and make sure you're ok with taking them (some people aren't for myriad reasons), but if you do take them report back and let us know what happens.

If either my dh or ds forget to take their meds that day, I can tell within seconds of seeing them from their body language and words.  They're sort of loosey goosey physically and class-clowny without the meds.  Without them it's almost like they're slightly drunk and when they take the meds, they sober up.  Not sober up in being overly serious, but sober up in that they are in control of themselves.  The ADD still pokes through, sure, but the meds keep it reigned in.

[Reefgazer]

I think some people are just pre-occupied with many or complex things to care about or notice the trivial.

[Tap]

DS is great at things which require fine detail, with immense memory and a strong sense of logic.   He is phenomenal at complex games like chess, Pathfinder, Magic the Gathering.  Things that are a challenge and use his innate skills to conquer an opponent....he is amazing at.  Wicked fast, complex and accurate  As long as it is requires intense concentration and high interest he is in heaven mentally.

He gets bored easily with simple tasks, and when he is bored, his mind wanders.  Or more simply...it finds other high interest things to think about instead of the more mundane. He can completely forget something simple like a dentist appt, but can recite complex rules on a board game. 

 He is also a master procrastinator, and tends to hyperfocus and do tasks as he only as he needs to do them. 

This is usually fine, but has burned him a few times in his life, especially when he opened an email late and found out that the assignment due tomorrow that he thought was going to take 1 hour, is actually going to require reading a book he doesn't own before he can start it....or needs to be fully annotated.....or needs to have 5 paper document sources and he only had 3 etc.  LIfe lessons.

He pays his bills on time. He is in management roles at work, so he obviously gets the job done.  He is 23 and has 2 BAs and 1 MA (all As in his MA program!), so he knows how to go to school and is good at it.  He is a personal assistant to dd11 and is phenomenal with her.

But.for example of where he falters..he leaves for Israel with a group in 10 days. I asked him if he needed anything for the trip or needs immunizations.....he said....hmmm, guess I should open some of those emails I've been getting and check that out.  ((((mom bangs head on wall))))   Going on the trip is high interest......planning for the trip=low interest.  LOL  (he went to Haiti a few years ago so is current on most travel vacs)

He has figured out ways to combat his ADHD. For him, it is post it notes and index cards. But there are times that it still gets the best of him and it bites him in the butt. He pays the consequences, accepts that is part of who he is, and moves on to something that is more interesting to think about. LOL

[Chris in VA]

18 hours ago, happi duck said:

I'm not sure "absent-minded professor" equals a specific diagnosis.  Imo, it's a perception/expectation thing.

I think when people fall into a category that our culture deems "smart" then people also notice if those people do something absent-minded because they think it can't go together. (They're wrong imo)

If you took a teacher and a professional dog walker with the same IQ, same pant leg riding up, same reminder string tied to a finger etc. they would not both be labeled "absent-minded professor".

Just my two cents!

As a teacher AND a professional dog walker...  hahahha

 

[Bluegoat]

15 hours ago, Corraleno said:

 

Gifted people with ADD and executive function issues can definitely have careers in areas that "require a lot of study and attention to detail." DS is seriously ADD (and also dyslexic), yet he is also intensely intellectual and even has a gift for languages – he aced all of his Greek and Latin Lukeion classes, self-taught Old Norse and Turkish, can talk at length and in great detail about many other languages, and plans to get a PhD in linguistics. He is also messy, disorganized, forgetful, and rarely on time for anything. If he ends up in academia, he will be the archetypal absent-minded professor. 

I don't think having a super messy office and forgetting to set an exam are just a matter of "not noticing things." The professor you mention probably doesn't give homework because he knows he would struggle to keep track of all those papers, grade and return them in a timely manner, keep track of all the grades, etc. I mean, if he forgot he was supposed to give an exam and had to throw something together at the last minute, to me that suggests deeper issues than just "not noticing" certain things. If he was that disorganized in the one area of his life where he probably expended the most energy and effort, since it was his livelihood, then I suspect that the rest of his life was even more disorganized and he probably had a long-suffering spouse or other assistant who managed all the other tasks, like paying bills, sorting mail, insurance, appointments, Christmas & birthday presents, grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc.

 

No, I wouldn't say that's a particularly accurate analysis of the person or his way of thinking or behaving.  I don't doubt that people with ADD can pay attention to detail.  But I'm to sure why people would think something like ADD and executive function problems are the only set of characteristics that results in the kind of behaviour described in the OP.  I'm a lot like that, but I don't have ADD and no one would ever think I did.  

[Bluegoat]

12 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I've never been diagnosed, but I do fit at least 6 of the criteria listed, and yes, the heavily impact my life. I can't do meds while breastfeeding anyway I would think, but something to consider one day maybe. 

And I do have both the N and P in my type...INFP. 

 

IP types are often like that, yup.  And a lot of academics in the humanities are IP.

[ktgrok]

32 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

IP types are often like that, yup.  And a lot of academics in the humanities are IP.

My original goal was to be a professor of religious studies (at a secular university). Then life happened (finance had nervous breakdown, moved home, no other school locally had that degree, etc). Never did finish my BA. Have "almost" a degree in religion, in English, a minor in Anthropology, and a AS in Veterinary Technology. 

[ktgrok]

So I spent time on the "How to ADHD" youtube channel last night, and also watched this TED talk. And then called the doctor this morning to set up an appt to discuss meds. I go on Thursday morning. This is pretty much my life. And it's getting worse as I realize I'm refusing to commit to things just to avoid the anxiety of forgetting to go or being late. That's not healthy. It also gave me some hope for my son. He needs to find his ocean. 

 

[kitten18]

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

So I spent time on the "How to ADHD" youtube channel last night, and also watched this TED talk. And then called the doctor this morning to set up an appt to discuss meds. I go on Thursday morning. This is pretty much my life. And it's getting worse as I realize I'm refusing to commit to things just to avoid the anxiety of forgetting to go or being late. That's not healthy. It also gave me some hope for my son. He needs to find his ocean. 

 

I just adore her. She helped my DS so much in understanding how his brain works. 

Let us know how your Dr visit goes. I really should do that for myself. 

[J-rap]

11 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

So I spent time on the "How to ADHD" youtube channel last night, and also watched this TED talk. And then called the doctor this morning to set up an appt to discuss meds. I go on Thursday morning. This is pretty much my life. And it's getting worse as I realize I'm refusing to commit to things just to avoid the anxiety of forgetting to go or being late. That's not healthy. It also gave me some hope for my son. He needs to find his ocean. 

 

I haven't been commenting too much on this thread as it has evolved (I'm the one who started it), but I wanted to say that I think it is really, really wonderful that you've been inspired to dig into this!!  I hope you keep us posted on how it all evolves for you.  I'm following this thread closely and it's certainly been helpful for me too.

[BeachGal]

Some people with ADHD improved after removing gluten in their diets.

The Cyrex Array 3 test could shed more light. You’d have to request it from your doctor.

[katilac]

On 4/23/2018 at 3:03 PM, Garga said:

 

  She totally didn’t understand what I meant and said to my son, “But you do know that most high schoolers have to work all day AND in the evenings?  You really should get used to that now that you’re in high school.”  She again, didn’t get what our issues are.  Yes, high schoolers work all day in school AND in the evening, and it would be amazing if I had the luxury of not squeezing in everything during those medicated hours.  But without the meds, my guy CANnot focus.  It’s not we are being special snowflake homeschoolers and wanting to do less work than everyone else.  It’s that we have an ADD dx and we are forced to get all the work done in limited hours each day, and I have to plan very carefully what we get done and when based on how effective the meds are at that time of day.   

1

 

Neither of my kids have ADD, and I promise you that they did not spend high school working all day AND in the evening. That's why we homeschool, lol. 

Also, I would disagree that most high schoolers are working all day. They are at school all day. There's a difference. 

[Lady Florida.]

58 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

I always chuckle at that list of 9 indications of ADHD. Dh has all 9... Surprisingly enough, I only have one ADHD kid and one ADD (inattention) kid. Another one can hyperfocus--he's the epitome of the absent-minded professor. He's been able to overcome it by sheer strength of will, serving as squadron commander for his detachment this year. His gf is too, headed to a PhD program in biomed research. I can only imagine what the other 12 people in her program are like! I hope they have lots of kids, so maybe when they misplace some, they'll still have a few left. 

Everyone has some of those symptoms and many people have all of them. It becomes ADHD when it meets the rest of the criteria. Just having the symptoms doesn't mean someone has ADHD.  When those symptoms (that we nearly all have) interfere with normal functioning it's ADHD. When diagnosing a child 2 or more of the symptoms must have been present befor age 12 and they must be present in two or more settings (eliminating the belief that's it's only a school problem). They must have been present for at least 6 months and they must be inappropriate for the developmental level.

Here it is-

 

In addition, the following conditions must be met:

• Several inattentive or hyperactive-impulsive symptoms were present before age 12 years.
• Several symptoms are present in two or more setting, (e.g., at home, school or work; with friends or relatives; in other activities).
• There is clear evidence that the symptoms interfere with, or reduce the quality of, social, school, or work functioning.
• The symptoms do not happen only during the course of schizophrenia or another psychotic disorder. The symptoms are not better explained by another mental disorder (e.g. Mood Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Dissociative Disorder, or a Personality Disorder).

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Everyone has some of those symptoms and many people have all of them. It becomes ADHD when it meets the rest of the criteria. Just having the symptoms doesn't mean someone has ADHD.  When those symptoms (that we nearly all have) interfere with normal functioning it's ADHD. When diagnosing a child 2 or more of the symptoms must have been present befor age 12 and they must be present in two or more settings (eliminating the belief that's it's only a school problem). They must have been present for at least 6 months and they must be inappropriate for the developmental level.

Here it is-

 

In addition, the following conditions must be met:

• Several inattentive or hyperactive-impulsive symptoms were present before age 12 years.
• Several symptoms are present in two or more setting, (e.g., at home, school or work; with friends or relatives; in other activities).
• There is clear evidence that the symptoms interfere with, or reduce the quality of, social, school, or work functioning.
• The symptoms do not happen only during the course of schizophrenia or another psychotic disorder. The symptoms are not better explained by another mental disorder (e.g. Mood Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Dissociative Disorder, or a Personality Disorder).

Right. Everyone gets distracted, not everyone has ADHD. Just like everyone gets sad, but not everyone has depression. It has to impact your functioning.