The Ban

[KidsHappen]

I have been here a long time. Not as long as some but more than many. And I pay attention to long term trends and I found that there are pretty much three subjects that are almost sure to lead to locked and deleted threads. Surprisingly, religion does not seem to be one of these subject. I have seen many very long, repsectful and civil religious discussions in which I think everyone came away so much the wiser. On the other hand, there are very few threads on evolution vs. creationism, abortion or politics that manage to last. I think that the difference is that while people feel strongly about their religion they are respectful and understanding of others point of view and are able to listen to it without feeling the need to try and change it. Not so much with the other subjects. These are ones in which people feel strongly and think that the opposition is wrong and would change their mind if only they could see the light. This is very rarely the case. Peoples minds are pretty much made up on these subjects and they are unlikely to change them based on a hostile exchange with the opposition.

 

I have been extraordinarily lucky to be able to stay out of these discussions because they just so happen to be some of the few subjects where I don't have a horse in the race so to speak. I always vote third party so I know going in that my candidate is going to lose and I don't take the mudslinging from the two main parties to heart. It not personal to me. On the other two subjects, I have yet to form an opinion on these matters. I am still in research and discovery mode as I try to hash out my feelings on these subjects. So while I don't take the coversations personally I do find them helpful. There is usually much info provided that has help me consider all angles and these are the threads that I really hate to see deleted.

 

A final thing that I sometimes see is that many times people engage when there really is not need to. Try to ask yourself, What good is it going to do? What am I hoping to accomplish in this exchange. Is it important? Will it matter to me tomorrow? Does it make any difference in my life? If not, then just let it go. Move on. Don't engage. I have had subject matter meet these criteria maybe three or four times in the last six years and even in those cases, I tried to present my argument kindly and with consideration for the other persons point of view. I would hope that we could all work towards interacting in such a way.

 

Well that is my $.03 worth. And I am curious to see if other agree or perhaps are seeing something different that I may be missing. WHat say you?

[RoughCollie]

I am curious to see if other agree or perhaps are seeing something different that I may be missing. WHat say you?

 

I agree with everything you said in your post. I don't get involved in discussions about evolution/creation or abortion because I have my point of view, and everyone else can hold their opinions without any argument from me.

 

As for politics, I get my dose of that at Free Republic. I don't come here for political discussions. I like this to be a peaceful place for me, so I don't click on political threads. If homeschooling were the political issue being discussed, I would participate if I had anything of substance to add to the discussion.

[Peek a Boo]

A final thing that I sometimes see is that many times people engage when there really is not need to. Try to ask yourself, What good is it going to do? What am I hoping to accomplish in this exchange. Is it important? Will it matter to me tomorrow? Does it make any difference in my life?

-------------

Well that is my $.03 worth. And I am curious to see if other agree or perhaps are seeing something different that I may be missing. WHat say you?

 

i dunno --I've seen a few heated threads about religion. ;)

 

i'll offer my own nickel's worth of opinion:

 

we each have our own set of priorities: what might not 'be needed' according to your subjectivity may be 'obviously missing' by mine. So those questions will have different answers depending on who's posting. I tend to consider the discussion as a whole: its existence on an archived forum w/ more people lurking than participating. So from that aspect I'm not necessarily in it to change the participants' views, but to make sure the side i support is fairly and accurately represented. Sometimes we see someone who HAS changed their perspective --those are nice moments. :D

 

Since this is a discussion board, I expect people here to raise more questions for, uh, discussion that i would in normal day-to-day meeting of acquaintances at a park or in the grocery store.

[Remudamom]

Peek, you are a good egg.

[beansprouts]

Peek, you are a good egg.

 

A little cracked, but a good one nevertheless. ;)

 

(Love ya, Peek!!!)

[5kidsforME]

 

Sorry my measly two cents don't sit well with you.

 

Well that is my $.03 worth.

 

 

i'll offer my own nickel's worth of opinion:

 

 

 

Wow, prices really are on the rise! :001_huh:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

[Amy in NY]

Wow, prices really are on the rise! :001_huh:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

 

Too funny! :smilielol5:

[Lovedtodeath]

On the other two subjects, I have yet to form an opinion on these matters. I am still in research and discovery mode as I try to hash out my feelings on these subjects. So while I don't take the coversations personally I do find them helpful. There is usually much info provided that has help me consider all angles and these are the threads that I really hate to see deleted.

 

A final thing that I sometimes see is that many times people engage when there really is not need to. Try to ask yourself, What good is it going to do? What am I hoping to accomplish in this exchange. Is it important? Will it matter to me tomorrow? Does it make any difference in my life?

 

So from that aspect I'm not necessarily in it to change the participants' views, but to make sure the side i support is fairly and accurately represented.

 

KidsHappen, your question was answered by your own post, adding Peek's perspective. I participate because maybe I will help you (or other lurkers) form your opinion. If I do not participate, then I actually feel guilty. If I see an opportunity to spread truth about my God, then it is my obligation to do so.

[Zelda]

I think it was beyond distressing that adult conversations on a momentous election proved impossible largely because of small number of militants determined to wreck every thread and/or decided to turn WTM into a echo chamber of the smear machines.

 

It was an extremely sad development, as there are many across the political spectrum I enjoyed conversing with and hearing from.

 

But no descent respect was paid by the determined few who insisted on ugliness. I strongly wish they had been "moderated" directly, instead of their being allowed to get thread after thread delated or closed.

 

Those who could not behave like grown-ups and who felt they were on a "mission" wrecked the whole chance at intelligent discourse.

 

If anything speaks badly about the WTM forum, it's that some subject are know "verboten" because a determined few are so immature that civil dialogue could not proceed.

 

I'm pretty disgusted with it and I wish some people would grow up.

 

Bill

 

Hey, do we all look like ants from way up there?

[Elaine]

Hey, do we all look like ants from way up there?

 

Shazam!!:lol:

[Elaine]

Wow, prices really are on the rise! :001_huh:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

 

:lol: You're so funny, Meg.

[neesek]

Wow, prices really are on the rise! :001_huh:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

 

:lol:

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I liked the political threads. It doesn't upset me when people argue, discuss, whatever. I think its fun (and sometimes, funny).

What does bother me are snarky comments that are obviously meant to zing someone in particular, but "pretending" to be nice. I think, as someone once said, everyone should find their big girl panties, pull them up, and ignore people who are constantly offending, either with the feature designed for this or in their own mind. That's not to say I haven't been guilty of doing something that I find bothersome, and I'm sure many have me on ignore. I'm also not above rethinking a position or comment, but not because of a general post. What I have changed, tends to be because of a personal note/conversation that was well-worded and convincing.

[Soph the vet]

Hey, do we all look like ants from way up there?

Zelda, Zelda, Zelda...<insert cyber-slap on wrist>!!:lol:

[beansprouts]

I liked the political threads. It doesn't upset me when people argue, discuss, whatever. I think its fun (and sometimes, funny).

What does bother me are snarky comments that are obviously meant to zing someone in particular, but "pretending" to be nice.

 

I won't say this hasn't happened, because I am sure it times it has. But we also need to be careful that we aren't overly suspicious of each other. I recently made a perfectly innocent comment which was meant to be humorous, and I was attacked and accused of being "passive aggressive". I think where there is doubt, we need to assume a positive intent. It is much easier than taking on the stress and paranoia of always questioning what the other person is really saying or thinking. If we are wrong, and the person is being passive-aggressive, they will only be dissapointed by their inability to provoke us ;)

[Melissa in CA]

I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer.

 

:lol::lol: Thanks for the laugh! :D

[KidsHappen]

Wow, prices really are on the rise! :001_huh:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

 

:lol: That is funny. Inflation ya know. :tongue_smilie:

[Peek a Boo]

:lol: That is funny. Inflation ya know. :tongue_smilie:

 

no, no, no.... i just KNOW that MY opinion is OBVIOUSLY worth more, cracked as it may be. ;)

 

and yes, you all DO look like ants :D

 

and :iagree: w/ MeanestMomInMidwest on her post above.

[8filltheheart]

 

In light of the fact that "this board" is made up of real live people, are you saying your view of particular individuals has changed? Or that your view of people in general who post on homeschooling boards has changed? Or...what? I don't understand.

 

 

I can answer this from my perspective. My view of individuals has changed.

 

I stopped reading the political threads b/c people I once viewed as rational, objective people.....no longer were.

 

 

It is one thing to hold strongly to a personal belief. It is completely another to state that proven fact is smear.

 

Suffice it to say, I am glad that politics is banned from the board. But my perspective of what occurred is not the same as others. But hey, I am now living the world of the minority......so I guess I am expected to get used to it.:tongue_smilie:

[nmoira]

Hey, do we all look like ants from way up there?

That's an interesting perspective, but unless you're assuming Bill's talking about you, wouldn't you be "up" there with him? Or do you disagree with his assertion entirely? Or are you saying that Bill's posts are so calm and reasonable that the rest of us can scarce hope to attain such lofty heights?

[dawn of ns]

I can't comment on the political threads because I don't even open them.

 

I just wanted to respond about the creation thread you mentioned. I thought that particular thread was going well. When it was locked, someone did ask for a general explanation within minutes. She didn't mention the creation thread by name, but I think it was obvious to what she was referring because it all happened so quickly. SWB explained the policy here:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66346

 

(I know I'm not addressing most of your post.)

 

I saw that thread. The problem is that when the people involved in the thread can't understand how their discussion falls under those explanations it begins to look arbitrary. If I'm a little short in my response will it be interpreted as hostile and get a thread locked? If I engage in conversation on a controversial topic with others might it get locked regardless of how courteous we are? Is it worth the effort of really working to make a conversation about something touchy respectful if it will be deleted anyway?

 

That thead in particular took a lot of work for all involved and I think we all gained some respect for each other. It could have been a model. But it was locked.

 

I know you didn't mean to engage me on this and please don't feel any need to respond. I'm just really frustrated over this and have no recourse or appeal so I've vented here. :)

[Peek a Boo]

That's an interesting perspective, but unless you're assuming Bill's talking about you, wouldn't you be "up" there with him? Or do you disagree with his assertion entirely? Or are you saying that Bill's posts are so calm and reasonable that the rest of us can scarce hope to attain such lofty heights?

 

i think she's saying that Bill's post had an arrogant air of smugness about it.

maybe calm, but i don't think i'd agree that it is necessarily reasonable when there are plenty of posters who think he's describing some of his own posts. ;)

 

not that I'm perfect either. i have my smug moments too.

 

*gasp*

 

:D

[Mommy22alyns]

Me too... a nice herbal tea also does wonders. :D

 

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Zelda]

That's an interesting perspective,

 

Is it?

 

but unless you're assuming Bill's talking about you, wouldn't you be "up" there with him? Or do you disagree with his assertion entirely? Or are you saying that Bill's posts are so calm and reasonable that the rest of us can scarce hope to attain such lofty heights?

 

Or am I saying all of those things? Or none of them? Pick one. Whichever one makes you happy. Or unhappy. Whichever one you prefer. I live to serve.

[KJB]

From SWB's blog post, it sounded like a lot of the problem was all the complaining emails they were getting.

 

But thinking about this, isn't this board part of their promoting their classical education methods? It probably isn't that good for business to get new people thinking about using their program come to the boards and see all these heated political arguments that they are sure to be offended by one or the other points of views. I found the political threads interesting, but you have to admit they didn't do anything to promote classical education.

 

'Zactly.

 

As much as people might prefer to believe that this board is about them and their right to interact freely, the truth is this board is a marketing tool for Peace Hill Press and SWB's books. And, it is a win-win for the business of SWB who gets to keep us a captive audience *and* those of us who both love PHP/SWB and discussion with people interested in classical education.

 

This board is not a place where controversy should be welcome because it reflects upon our hostess who depends (a tiny bit) on this board to attract/solidify new customers so PHP can continue publishing wonderful books. The board promotes product loyalty. Controversy ain't good for business folks.

 

And, I want that fourth grade Writing With Ease workbook published soon. No more controversy. Buy more books. Behave and Buy. The End.

 

(And, I should add, I LOVE to debate and nothing I read bothered me a tiny bit. But my feathers aren't easily ruffled and I've learned the hard way that I'm not in the majority in this respect. Sigh....)

Edited November 13, 2008 by KJB

[Lovedtodeath]

I saw that thread. The problem is that when the people involved in the thread can't understand how their discussion falls under those explanations it begins to look arbitrary. If I'm a little short in my response will it be interpreted as hostile and get a thread locked? If I engage in conversation on a controversial topic with others might it get locked regardless of how courteous we are? Is it worth the effort of really working to make a conversation about something touchy respectful if it will be deleted anyway?

 

That thead in particular took a lot of work for all involved and I think we all gained some respect for each other. It could have been a model. But it was locked.

 

I know you didn't mean to engage me on this and please don't feel any need to respond. I'm just really frustrated over this and have no recourse or appeal so I've vented here. :)

Dawn, I take full responsibility for the "spiraling downward" of that thread. I am sorry I ruined it for all of us. I would have came to my senses and edited if it were brought to my attention (and possibly if it were not), as soon as I was free. My family kept me busy for several hours after I posted. I am sorry that you were not able to finish the conversation. And I know if I were you I would hate it that lovedtodeath got the last words in. (Even though they were just more of the same.) :D

 

I belong to another board in which the mods send PM to the person asking them to edit, or they simply delete the reply instead of locking the entire thread. That is more work, no doubt, but preferable IMO because explanations are given and one rotten post (or poster) does not ruin the whole thread. (On the other board I was banned!)

 

I had to come to realize that the board was indeed owned and operated (financed) by a private citizen who had every right to keep what she wanted on the board and throw my dissenting opinion out. (Though I still think she is wrong.:tongue_smilie: ) I am allowed back there now and I just stay away from the threads that caused me trouble. (Poor mommies are getting no good sleep advice. :confused:)

[Elaine]

 

I'm pretty disgusted with it and I wish some people would grow up.

 

Bill

 

 

Me, too!

[nmoira]

Is it?

 

Or am I saying all of those things? Or none of them? Pick one. Whichever one makes you happy. Or unhappy. Whichever one you prefer. I live to serve.

That would be putting words in your mouth, possibly assuming a motive. Are you asking me to make assumptions about you? Seems like a lot of effort to be expected to read your posts AND analyze them according to your perceived character, biases, etc. Generally speaking, I would greatly prefer reading well-reasoned arguments, but what I prefer of course has no bearing on others.

[8filltheheart]

i think she's saying that Bill's post had an arrogant air of smugness about it.

maybe calm, but i don't think i'd agree that it is necessarily reasonable when there are plenty of posters who think he's describing some of his own posts. ;)

 

not that I'm perfect either. i have my smug moments too.

 

*gasp*

 

:D

 

When posting legitimate links that are verifiable as being legally true are described as "into a echo chamber of the smear machines," then yes

 

:iagree:

[Remudamom]

That would be putting words in your mouth, possibly assuming a motive. Are you asking me to make assumptions about you? Seems like a lot of effort to be expected to read your posts AND analyze them according to your perceived character, biases, etc. Generally speaking, I would greatly prefer reading well-reasoned arguments, but what I prefer of course has no bearing on others.

 

I think we should all make assumptions about her. I'm going to assume she's a rabble rouser, and I shall henceforth take great pleasure in all of her posts.

[Blessedfamily]

I saw that thread. The problem is that when the people involved in the thread can't understand how their discussion falls under those explanations it begins to look arbitrary.

 

I know you didn't mean to engage me on this and please don't feel any need to respond. I'm just really frustrated over this and have no recourse or appeal so I've vented here. :)

 

I know what you mean about those decisions looking arbitrary. I recently saw a post that I considered highly imflammatory that went unaddressed and it had nothing to do with politics or religion.

 

I also understand what you mean about not having any recourse but to vent here. I usually don't because I say to myself, "Can't change the house rules if it's not your house."

[percytruffle]

I think we should all make assumptions about her. I'm going to assume she's a rabble rouser, and I shall henceforth take great pleasure in all of her posts.

 

Perfect assesment of the post and poster and I heartily agree! :D

 

We love you, Zelda!! Keep on makin' us smile.

[Laura in VA]

Perfect assesment of the post and poster and I heartily agree! :D

 

We love you, Zelda!! Keep on makin' us smile.

 

 

:iagree:

[percytruffle]

A little cracked, but a good one nevertheless. ;)

 

(Love ya, Peek!!!)

 

I agree. You're a good old cracked egg, Peek.

 

Yeah, anyone who will ante up their five cents worth is worth their weight in gold. And to think I've only given my two cents all these years. My opinion is nearly worthless in comparison! :lol:

[percytruffle]

:iagree:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

[Laura in VA]

 

 

 

:lol:

 

 

 

[percytruffle]

 

Laura, I think that you, I, and Remundamom just started the Zelda Fan Club!

[Blessedfamily]

:toetap05: Who put some of those silly tags down there? Ants? Milit-Ants? Bears?

[Zelda]

That would be putting words in your mouth, possibly assuming a motive. Are you asking me to make assumptions about you? Seems like a lot of effort to be expected to read your posts AND analyze them according to your perceived character, biases, etc. Generally speaking, I would greatly prefer reading well-reasoned arguments, but what I prefer of course has no bearing on others.

 

May I direct you to the handy "ignore" feature? It will save you the hassle of having to read and respond to my poorly reasoned comments. I join you in puzzling over why anyone would want to analyze them or question their meaning.

[dawn of ns]

Dawn, I take full responsibility for the "spiraling downward" of that thread. I am sorry I ruined it for all of us. I would have came to my senses and edited if it were brought to my attention (and possibly if it were not), as soon as I was free. My family kept me busy for several hours after I posted. I am sorry that you were not able to finish the conversation. And I know if I were you I would hate it that lovedtodeath got the last words in. (Even though they were just more of the same.) :D

 

I don't think it was your fault. It wasn't a spiraling down. If anything it was just one post with a hint of snark and nothing I couldn't take! :) I had a good time talking with you and found your posts to be generally polite and respectful.

 

And last words? Don't worry about that. I'm much too mature to be the kind of person that worries about that sort of thing.

 

 

 

 

Darwin RULES!

 

:tongue_smilie::D

Edited November 14, 2008 by dawn of ns

[dawn of ns]

I also understand what you mean about not having any recourse but to vent here. I usually don't because I say to myself, "Can't change the house rules if it's not your house."

 

I guess that's what it boils down to but that, in itself, can be a problem. The best, most respectful forums I've been on are the ones where the posters feels a vested interest in maintaining decorum. Where they feel the forum is in a sense, their house. It's not a sense I get here. It's very clear that it's SWB's house and so people may not feel the same duty towards it to the people here. I wonder if that's part of the problem which the ease with which some threads fall apart.

 

Granted, I'm new and that can make a huge difference (fitting in takes time) plus I may be looking for something that this forum isn't offering. As someone pointed out, it's a marketing tool first and foremost. And really, thinking of it in that respect, I do enjoy it. I get lots of ideas and leads on curriculum. I've gottn lazy and slid into a certain, specific expectation of what a forum SHOULD be rather then acknowledging that some have a different focus or purpose and I should simply adjust my expectations.

[LisaNY]

Laura, I think that you, I, and Remundamom just started the Zelda Fan Club!

 

(whippin' out my checkbook) How much to join? :D

[LisaNY]

Perfect assesment of the post and poster and I heartily agree! :D

 

We love you, Zelda!! Keep on makin' us smile.

 

Yes! Thanks for keeping it funny around here! Your humor is truly a breath of fresh air!! :biggrinjester:

[Lovedtodeath]

Darwin RULES!

 

Oh no you didn't! Now I have to get some rebuttals in on this thread. :lol:

[beansprouts]

I agree. You're a good old cracked egg, Peek.

 

Yeah, anyone who will ante up their five cents worth is worth their weight in gold. And to think I've only given my two cents all these years. My opinion is nearly worthless in comparison! :lol:

 

I've got a quarter. I'll take five opinions, please!

[Mama Lynx]

(whippin' out my checkbook) How much to join? :D

 

Wait. I gotta pay?!?!?

[dawn of ns]

Oh no you didn't! Now I have to get some rebuttals in on this thread. :lol:

 

We'll get THIS thread locked next! :D

[beansprouts]

We'll get THIS thread locked next! :D

 

I am a bit surprised we haven't succeeded at that yet. :D

[Blessedfamily]

I was going to say that earlier. I don't know why it's not locked, either. Who do I see about having that done?

[Lovedtodeath]

I was going to say that earlier. I don't know why it's not locked, either. Who do I see about having that done?

 

I would think that if it were to be locked, it would have happened long ago. We are all being nice now, no reason to... just stop posting and it will go away! :tongue_smilie: