Abandoning AoPS Geometry? Advice?

[skimomma]

It must be geometry month on this forum.....

 

It pains me to write this, but I am considering a change in geometry curriculum.

 

Dd (9th grade) has been using AoPS Geometry this year.  She used AoPS Pre-A and Intro to Algebra.  She is not what anyone would call an "advanced" student and is not super mathy but has not ruled out a STEM career down the road.  Dd really likes the discovery approach to AoPS and it has been 100% her choice to use this program thus far.  The year started out great and she looked forward to math each day.  But, two things are happening now that compel me to investigate a different approach.  

 

First, the time AoPS is taking is simply not sustainable in dd's school day this year.  She has two other very challenging subjects and is a slow worker.  She is just not making the kind of progress necessary to complete the subject in one year, even if we went through the summer.

 

Second, dd has hit a wall.  Everything was going well until Chapter 5.  She finally got through all of the sections but she is just not "seeing" the paths in these problems anymore.  She fully understands them once we work through them together but she cannot seem to come up with the path herself much of the time (I'd say 50% of the time).  Often a small hint is enough for her to see it.  It looks like this single chapter is going to take a full three weeks to complete.  I think her lack of math maturity and natural talent has finally caught up to her with this program.  I asked on this forum if chapter 5 was difficult for others (we found this to be true of specific chapters in the other AoPS books) but it seems that this is not a common "hiccup chapter" for others.

 

I am looking for recommendations.  We will likely start from scratch as though this is the beginning of the year.  Dd prefers a program that teaches to the student although I am able and willing to step in whenever necessary.  She would prefer something that is simply book based with no videos or online components.  I would prefer a program that offers books for the entire high school series so that if it does work well, dd does not have to get used to a different approach each year.

 

Lastly, as a last-ditch effort, if anyone has a AoPS Geometry pep-talk-of-hope to give us reason to consider sticking with it, I am all ears.  Dd is very resistant to changing programs.  I feel she is actually learning more than she would with another program but also think the issues are going to snowball as AoPS builds off of previous topics.  If she is not seeing the "path" in many of the problems now, I can only imagine that will get worse in later chapters.  But I guess I don't know that to be true, so advice would be very welcome.

[Arcadia]

Do you have the AoPS intermediate algebra book? If you do, I would consider swapping the order and do the introduction to geometry book after intermediate algebra.

 

How is her drawings for geometry? Is she drawing them correct? Because if the drawing is wrong, then the working that follows would tend to be wrong. When my kids get stuck, I check their drawing for that question. If the drawing is already given in the problem, then I see if they miss out information or they were careless.

 

Geometry is just hard work for my husband which explains why he choose electrical engineering and not mechanical engineering. My husband has no natural talent for geometry, he can’t fix IKEA furniture at all. Just increased tolerance for frustration with age helped (not just for math).

 

Math problems can literally be slept on. Sometimes the solution just comes to the person after a good night sleep or two. My oldest shelved the problems he is stuck with and comes back to them another day.

 

ETA:

My husband was okay with public school textbooks. Geometry comes easy to me so any textbook would have worked for me.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Arcadia

[Julie of KY]

I don't think all is lost. The geometry book is long and hard. If she can get through chapters 5 and 6, then she'll be able to keep going. I don't think you have to cover it all to call it a geometry credit. Most books don't cover nearly that much material.

 

Looking forward, chapter 13 is hard to grasp completely. Analytic geometry is a great chapter combining algebra and geometry, but is not usually covered in a geometry course. The last chapter of challenging problems wouldn't have to be finished to call it a geometry credit.

 

I wouldn't mind continuing along and calling it a geometry credit. From there she can move on and continue to work through the geometry book if she wants.

 

If you want to look at something else, one of my kids left AoPS and went to Derek Owens - he started at precalc and now is doing calculus. (My oldest did AoPS all the way through). 

 

 

[wapiti]

I agree w/Julie that not all is lost.  I don't see anything wrong with hints as needed.  Since you feel short on time, trim down or skip the challengers completely, if you aren't already.

 

Warning, a more traditional approach to geometry may drive an AoPS lover crazy.  And if you do switch, I would not start from scratch but simply have her do the chapter review for the topics that she has already covered rather than every lesson.

 

Analytic geometry is a great chapter combining algebra and geometry, but is not usually covered in a geometry course.

 

While I hadn't learned that back in the old days, the material covered in chapter 13 is definitely covered in Common Core geometry, as is some amount of analytic geometry.

 

(Also a totally unrelated observation: recent SATs have each included one question using the equation for a circle.)

 

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by wapiti

[Roadrunner]

hugs to her. Geometry book was tough for sure. We have generally found a steep step up from each book. I thought Geometry was much harder than Intro to Algebra (which we found easy) and Intermediate Algebra is another very steep step up from Geometry. Maybe don't do challenging sections and get a standard geo book to supplement with more "normal difficulty" problems if she needs more practice? If you are strong in math, I would absolutely mix and match, cut what is not needed (I don't know enough to even know what that would be), yet somehow make sure she is mastering the content. 

I don't know enough to take any liberties with the textbook, and I can't  grade any proofs, so my kid has to take a class and get an official grade before I call it mastered. It has been the toughest class he has taken so far from aops. 

[skimomma]

Do you have the AoPS intermediate algebra book? If you do, I would consider swapping the order and do the introduction to geometry book after intermediate algebra.

 

How is her drawings for geometry? Is she drawing them correct? Because if the drawing is wrong, then the working that follows would tend to be wrong. When my kids get stuck, I check their drawing for that question. If the drawing is already given in the problem, then I see if they miss out information or they were careless.

 

Geometry is just hard work for my husband which explains why he choose electrical engineering and not mechanical engineering. My husband has no natural talent for geometry, he can’t fix IKEA furniture at all. Just increased tolerance for frustration with age helped (not just for math).

 

Math problems can literally be slept on. Sometimes the solution just comes to the person after a good night sleep or two. My oldest shelved the problems he is stuck with and comes back to them another day.

 

ETA:

My husband was okay with public school textbooks. Geometry comes easy to me so any textbook would have worked for me.

 

 

There are good points here.  I don't have the Intermediate Algebra book.  I hesitate to go that route just because I think that might be even more difficult.  And dd likes geometry.  A lot, actually.  

 

Her drawings are good.  I check them.  She added the use of color thanks to a suggestion here and that has helped.  Dd does struggle sometimes to show all work and to carefully list givens and assumptions, but that is a work in progress.

 

The sleeping on problems is smart.  A fresh look always improves the situation.  I think I may just be too focussed on how much time and how little "progress" I am seeing.  Mostly, I am dreading the possibility of taking geometry to the beach with us this summer....  But, I had not explored the possibility of moving on and coming back to problems later.  That is something we can try.

[skimomma]

I don't think all is lost. The geometry book is long and hard. If she can get through chapters 5 and 6, then she'll be able to keep going. I don't think you have to cover it all to call it a geometry credit. Most books don't cover nearly that much material.

 

Looking forward, chapter 13 is hard to grasp completely. Analytic geometry is a great chapter combining algebra and geometry, but is not usually covered in a geometry course. The last chapter of challenging problems wouldn't have to be finished to call it a geometry credit.

 

I wouldn't mind continuing along and calling it a geometry credit. From there she can move on and continue to work through the geometry book if she wants.

 

If you want to look at something else, one of my kids left AoPS and went to Derek Owens - he started at precalc and now is doing calculus. (My oldest did AoPS all the way through). 

 

It is good to know that slogging through chapters 5 and 6 means a good chance of moving on successfully.

 

I cannot see us getting through this whole book.  However, to be honest, I say this with AoPS every November and so far dd has finished each book on time so it may be seasonal.  But I figure if she continues to put in the hours, if a reasonable amount of the book is finished, I will call it a credit even if we do have to go back and finish up at the beginning of the next year or over the summer.

 

DO is on my short list.  Dd took Physical Science through DO and enjoyed it.  She did not find it challenging but I suspect the math classes are different.

 

Long term, Intermediate Algebra is the last class I plan to teach at home.  I am hoping dd will DE for pre-calc on up.  This is part of the reason I would like to stick with AoPS.  I think dd will be able to handle the faster pace of DE with a solid AoPS background.  If we switch to a more traditional curriculum, I feel DE might be too much of a jump.  Luckily, I can teach math all the way through if necessary so we do have options.

[skimomma]

I agree w/Julie that not all is lost.  I don't see anything wrong with hints as needed.  Since you feel short on time, trim down or skip the challengers completely, if you aren't already.

 

Warning, a more traditional approach to geometry may drive an AoPS lover crazy.  And if you do switch, I would not start from scratch but simply have her do the chapter review for the topics that she has already covered rather than every lesson.

 

 

While I hadn't learned that back in the old days, the material covered in chapter 13 is definitely covered in Common Core geometry, as is some amount of analytic geometry.

 

(Also a totally unrelated observation: recent SATs have each included one question using the equation for a circle.)

 

I feel a little better knowing hints might be OK.  Sometimes the very tiniest of hints gets dd going in the right direction.  And to be honest, I have gotten stuck on a few problems myself!

 

I think you are right about switching to a more traditional program being difficult.  Every year I check out several different books from ILL so dd has chance to see other options and she has had no interest in the more traditional approaches.  Sigh.  I knew this before asking the question but was hoping there was some magic program out there that I have missed that has a similar approach at AoPS without it being so blazing difficult and time consuming.

[skimomma]

hugs to her. Geometry book was tough for sure. We have generally found a steep step up from each book. I thought Geometry was much harder than Intro to Algebra (which we found easy) and Intermediate Algebra is another very steep step up from Geometry. Maybe don't do challenging sections and get a standard geo book to supplement with more "normal difficulty" problems if she needs more practice? If you are strong in math, I would absolutely mix and match, cut what is not needed (I don't know enough to even know what that would be), yet somehow make sure she is mastering the content. 

I don't know enough to take any liberties with the textbook, and I can't  grade any proofs, so my kid has to take a class and get an official grade before I call it mastered. It has been the toughest class he has taken so far from aops. 

 

Another step up to Intermediate Algebra is very scary to me right now!

 

Dd does not do the challenge problems.  And I think she would be very amused to see "normal" geometry problems.  There is no way I could have done this level of work when I took geometry in high school and I got straight As in that class.

 

Luckily, I am very strong in math so I have am able to help and accurately grade her work.  However, I might be too far removed from highs school math to know what could be skipped.

[Arcadia]

 Long term, Intermediate Algebra is the last class I plan to teach at home.  I am hoping dd will DE for pre-calc on up.  This is part of the reason I would like to stick with AoPS.  I think dd will be able to handle the faster pace of DE with a solid AoPS background.  If we switch to a more traditional curriculum, I feel DE might be too much of a jump.  Luckily, I can teach math all the way through if necessary so we do have options.

 

 

AoPS Precalculus is a relatively fast book for my kids. YMMV. My boy’s prealgebra book and intermediate algebra book has the most tortured binding and looks worst than well used.

 

Regarding time, I have a fast worker and a slow poke. I have to ration time on my slow poke per subject and he can use up his free time on any subject he wants to. Also math comes last for my slow poke because he needs the most time on math and least time on languages (due to light languages workloads). For my slow poke marginal utility goes down with time for any subject so I allocated one hour for most subjects and two hours for math.

 

I feel a little better knowing hints might be OK.  Sometimes the very tiniest of hints gets dd going in the right direction.  And to be honest, I have gotten stuck on a few problems myself!

Did you have study groups when you were in school/college? Think of hints as bouncing ideas off classmates when discussing homework problems. My younger boy ask older boy for hints as he understands older boy more than the hints provided for the problems in the book.

 

AoPS has a forum and many post questions from the books when they are stumped. The books may be written for a self learner but math discussions are more fun then puzzling through everything alone. I know you mentioned DE for precalculus and up, but if your daughter wants to continue with AoPS books until Calculus you can just prep for the AP Calculus BC exam with a prep book. My oldest doesn’t want to DE because of the permanent grades issue so he did the AP exam route.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It must be geometry month on this forum.....

 

It pains me to write this, but I am considering a change in geometry curriculum.

 

Dd (9th grade) has been using AoPS Geometry this year.  She used AoPS Pre-A and Intro to Algebra.  She is not what anyone would call an "advanced" student and is not super mathy but has not ruled out a STEM career down the road.  Dd really likes the discovery approach to AoPS and it has been 100% her choice to use this program thus far.  The year started out great and she looked forward to math each day.  But, two things are happening now that compel me to investigate a different approach.  

 

First, the time AoPS is taking is simply not sustainable in dd's school day this year.  She has two other very challenging subjects and is a slow worker.  She is just not making the kind of progress necessary to complete the subject in one year, even if we went through the summer.

 

Second, dd has hit a wall.  Everything was going well until Chapter 5.  She finally got through all of the sections but she is just not "seeing" the paths in these problems anymore.  She fully understands them once we work through them together but she cannot seem to come up with the path herself much of the time (I'd say 50% of the time).  Often a small hint is enough for her to see it.  It looks like this single chapter is going to take a full three weeks to complete.  I think her lack of math maturity and natural talent has finally caught up to her with this program.  I asked on this forum if chapter 5 was difficult for others (we found this to be true of specific chapters in the other AoPS books) but it seems that this is not a common "hiccup chapter" for others.

 

I am looking for recommendations.  We will likely start from scratch as though this is the beginning of the year.  Dd prefers a program that teaches to the student although I am able and willing to step in whenever necessary.  She would prefer something that is simply book based with no videos or online components.  I would prefer a program that offers books for the entire high school series so that if it does work well, dd does not have to get used to a different approach each year.

 

Lastly, as a last-ditch effort, if anyone has a AoPS Geometry pep-talk-of-hope to give us reason to consider sticking with it, I am all ears.  Dd is very resistant to changing programs.  I feel she is actually learning more than she would with another program but also think the issues are going to snowball as AoPS builds off of previous topics.  If she is not seeing the "path" in many of the problems now, I can only imagine that will get worse in later chapters.  But I guess I don't know that to be true, so advice would be very welcome.

 

You don't mention how long your dd is spending on math each day.  I'm not sure that you are really that off pace.  DS and I do an hour of math each school day (M-F).  When the hour timer goes off, we finish the problem we are on.

 

Last week we did Lesson 5-1 through Lesson 5.3.  Today we did Lesson 5.4 and the first sample problem of 5.5.  Looking ahead at the rest of 5.5, I would expect that we will spend a couple days on it.  Then I would expect to spend several days doing the end of lesson review problems.  

 

Looking ahead, I want to get to chapter 15, but I'm ok if I end up covering material from chapters 13-15 more briefly.  DS did Chapters 1-13 of the Intro to Algebra book and will need to circle around and finish the Intro to Algebra book for Algebra 2.  Then he can come back and do the analytical geometry and trig portions of the book or cover it in a dual credit pre-calculus and trig course at the community college as a high school junior.

 

Things we do to get through the math lessons.  Many of these are based on suggestions from other board members.

 

Only spend an hour per lesson, but do a lesson every single school day.  Before I started doing this, I was trying to have him get through a full lesson in one sitting.  It just was too much content on some days and not enough dwell time with some of the concepts.  Also because it was a lot, he tended to want to avoid it.  An hour is consistent and repeatable.

 

Do the math together.  We sit down across from each other at the table and work through each problem at the same time.  Sometimes I finish a problem first and can give him a little hint.  Sometimes he gets it and I'm just not seeing it.  This puts me much more in a position to help him over sticking points or emphasize sections of the explanation.  He loves to be able to show me how to solve something or point out something in the set up that I've missed.  It also helps me to not overestimate how much can be done in one day.  It definitely takes time from my day to do this together.  But it evens out by helping us move forward at a steady pace.  

 

Draw and label every figure.  Really.  Sometimes I'll also resketch component parts of a diagram.  For example, if I have several similar triangles within a diagram, I may sketch them all and label them so I can see which sides correspond more clearly.

 

Keep a notebook with concepts.  I started this with some particular vocabulary like axiom and postulate.  Now it has moved into a listing of reasons for congruity and reasons for similarity.  Sometimes I will flip back and look at the possible ways to prove congruity or similarity and then look at the figure to see which might apply.

 

Use colored pencils to mark equal angles.  It is far easier to see a similar triangle when I can look for red-yellow-green.  It can also be easier to see that when I have blue in a couple angles and that at one place blue = green + red, then the other place where I have green+red also has to equal blue.  Again, since we are doing these at the same time, I am modeling accurate figure drawing and labeling.

 

If you don't know where to go, start by writing down everything you are given.  Often you will start to see what follows from that.  For example if you are given parallel lines, then you probably have some equal angles where other lines are transverse the parallel lines.  If you have enough equal angles you may have similarity.

 

If you get really stuck, then read through the solution.  Some of the solutions seem rather dense to read through.  You may have to work them out step by step as you read them.  

 

Even if you get the problem right, read through the solution.  AoPS often puts definitions, important points, and warnings within the solution write up.  You may miss key information if all you do is look for the answer, but breeze through the explanation of how they got there.  We have also found that while we had a correct answer, there was a much more elegant way of solving the problem; this solution method often shows up in the end of lesson or review problems.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought it might be useful to share what we are getting through at an hour a day.  

 

Th - 4.34-4.35  (this is from the review section of chapter 4)

Fr - 4.36-37  (At this point we were in challenge problems and I declared chapt 4 to be done so we could move along.)

 

Mo - Lesson 5.1 and 5.1.1-5.1.2

Tu - Lesson 5.2.  Sample problems 5.2-5.7

We - had to skip math

Th - 5.2.1-5.2.2 in first session of about 45 min.  Had to leave the house.  Came back and did 5.2.3-5.2.4  (This was unusual in that we did more than an hour after having had to spend only a short amount of time at the first sitting.)

Fr - Lesson 5.3.  Problems 5.8-5.10 and 5.3.1-5.3.3

 

Mo - 5.3.4 to finish that lesson.  Then 5.11 and 5.4.1  (really short lesson on SSS similarity).  Then 5.14.

 

 

 

Looking ahead I think it will take 7-10 more days to finish the chapter. 

Our method of working through this isn't THE way; it's just OUR way.  Your mileage may vary.

[skimomma]

 

 

AoPS Precalculus is a relatively fast book for my kids. YMMV. My boy’s prealgebra book and intermediate algebra book has the most tortured binding and looks worst than well used.

 

Regarding time, I have a fast worker and a slow poke. I have to ration time on my slow poke per subject and he can use up his free time on any subject he wants to. Also math comes last for my slow poke because he needs the most time on math and least time on languages (due to light languages workloads). For my slow poke marginal utility goes down with time for any subject so I allocated one hour for most subjects and two hours for math.

 

Did you have study groups when you were in school/college? Think of hints as bouncing ideas off classmates when discussing homework problems. My younger boy ask older boy for hints as he understands older boy more than the hints provided for the problems in the book.

 

AoPS has a forum and many post questions from the books when they are stumped. The books may be written for a self learner but math discussions are more fun then puzzling through everything alone. I know you mentioned DE for precalculus and up, but if your daughter wants to continue with AoPS books until Calculus you can just prep for the AP Calculus BC exam with a prep book. My oldest doesn’t want to DE because of the permanent grades issue so he did the AP exam route.

 

That is very good to know about the pre-calc book.  We have a potentially complicated scheduling issue that is making DE a strong possibility.  Dd may attend one semester at a semester school her 11th grade year and she likely would not take math at the school, leaving one semester to cover pre-calc.  It will also be a light semester at home so that seemed like a good point to introduce DE for math.  But there are so many unknowns at this point that I am keeping all options open.  We are not as concerned about the permanent record issue because dd is likely not interested in very selective schools or a likely candidate for major scholarships.  

[skimomma]

I won't quote all of your posts, Sebastian, but I really appreciate your words.  

 

The goal is one hour a day but sometimes that ends up being more like 90 minutes.  It seems we always get into some meaty problem right before the hour mark and lose track of time.  I do work all of the problems myself.  That is the only way I can really be helpful since I learned geometry with some different methods and a very very long time ago.  Dd does often beat me to the answers and sometimes I get stumped, which is humbling.  Dd has been good about accurate drawings and we just added color, which has helped.  Getting her to write all of the things down when stumped is a work-in-progess, but she sees me modeling it so hopefully she will eventually start doing that without my prompting.  I like the idea of a concepts notebook.  We actually did this during Pre-A but somewhere along the line it got dropped.  Reading through and understanding the solutions is very important as sometimes we arrive at the correct answer without using the same method or fully proving.

 

More than anything though, I am glad we are not the only ones wallowing in Chapter 5 at this late date.  I am starting to come to the conclusion that it is better to stick with what dd likes even if we don't get as far as I had hoped.  I think I have this panic every November, but it seems worse this year!

 

Do you do the challenge problems?  We stopped tackling those mid-way through Intro to Algebra just because we were running out of time.  To be honest, my dd couldn't do most of them anyway.  The regular review problems are challenging enough.  But I do wonder if that will cause long-term issues.  

[Roadrunner]

I won't quote all of your posts, Sebastian, but I really appreciate your words.

 

The goal is one hour a day but sometimes that ends up being more like 90 minutes. It seems we always get into some meaty problem right before the hour mark and lose track of time. I do work all of the problems myself. That is the only way I can really be helpful since I learned geometry with some different methods and a very very long time ago. Dd does often beat me to the answers and sometimes I get stumped, which is humbling. Dd has been good about accurate drawings and we just added color, which has helped. Getting her to write all of the things down when stumped is a work-in-progess, but she sees me modeling it so hopefully she will eventually start doing that without my prompting. I like the idea of a concepts notebook. We actually did this during Pre-A but somewhere along the line it got dropped. Reading through and understanding the solutions is very important as sometimes we arrive at the correct answer without using the same method or fully proving.

 

More than anything though, I am glad we are not the only ones wallowing in Chapter 5 at this late date. I am starting to come to the conclusion that it is better to stick with what dd likes even if we don't get as far as I had hoped. I think I have this panic every November, but it seems worse this year!

 

Do you do the challenge problems? We stopped tackling those mid-way through Intro to Algebra just because we were running out of time. To be honest, my dd couldn't do most of them anyway. The regular review problems are challenging enough. But I do wonder if that will cause long-term issues.

We do all the problems (with the exception of some starred problems in the challenging sections), but my kid spends more than an hour on math. Since math is his primary "thing", we don't mind. Yesterday he was bogged down on some (not a challenging) problem about parabolas for 45 minutes. So I think it's very normal not to get through a lot in that curriculum in short time period.

I think flexibility is important. Sometimes one can work through a lot in an hour, and sometimes we spend an hour chewing on the pencil and thinking.

I also think it will get better for your DD not because material is any easier down the road (it's not), but because it takes time to develop the type of thinking geo requires. I remember thinking in the beginning that geometry would be my kid's downfall, but he ended up doing exceptionally well in his class and writing some amazing proofs (never thought we would get there). So slow down and persevere for a while, and expect time spend to vary from day to day. I can't imagine a timer guided aops session in our house. It's just too unpredictable for us.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

We are in chapter 5, but I have not been viewing that as being behind. It represents steady progress and he is understanding the concepts. He is typically able to work through samples successfully and apply it to the lesson problems. He did miss almost 2 weeks in Sept when we were travelling.

 

I wouldn't mind going a little longer than an hour and sometimes have. But the first semester of algebra was a serious slog. Lessons took a long time and tended to be something he put off. Being finite but daily has made it much more routine at our house.

 

I see us as on pace to finish at the end of the year, understand geometry concepts, be ready to tackle algebra 2, and have also preserved time for other subjects.

[MarkT]

  Dd may attend one semester at a semester school her 11th grade year and she likely would not take math at the school, leaving one semester to cover pre-calc.

What is a "semester school"  besides the obvious?  It is the second time in the last two days where someone has used that term.

 

Any examples?

 

How does that look on a transcript?

[skimomma]

What is a "semester school"  besides the obvious?  It is the second time in the last two days where someone has used that term.

 

Any examples?

 

How does that look on a transcript?

 

 

It is a boarding school that students attend for a single semester, typically 11th but sometimes 10th grade.

 

I don't know a whole a lot about them as a whole but the ones I know of have a particular theme.  In dd's case it is a conservation and outdoors themed school.  So the curriculum is tailored to that theme with classes like AP Environmental Science, history of conservation, nature in literature, outdoors skills, etc.....  Most are endowed so do not cost much, if anything to attend.  Dd is looking at it as a way to spend a semester doing something she loves (outdoors), have a "school experience," and seeing what going away to college might feel like.  Dd is also interested in two very different career paths and this experience will give her an in-depth taste of one of those while her real life now is giving her an in-depth taste of the other.

 

I have no idea how it would look on a transcript.  For us, as homeschoolers, it will look like any other classes she is taking from outside providers.  For someone in traditional school, which is where most semester school students appear to come from, I imagine the classes show up as transfer credits.  The school dd is interested in is accredited by the NCA and is an approved AP provider and test center.

 

It is not something I would have specifically sought out for dd but she found out about it on her own and has expressed a now long-term desire to attend.  So, we will try to make it happen.  

 

ETA - You probably heard both mentions from me.  I brought it up in the AP test site thread too.  I don't think many people know what a semester school is. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by skimomma

[daijobu]

I love Sebastian's advice.  We did everything on her list except the notebook, and now I wish we had!  

 

We got through the AoPS sequence by schooling year round.  This gives us extra time to go through all the problems without rushing or skipping.  It's a rare student (IMO) who can finish any regular AoPS book in a standard school year.   

 

You know what also helps is taking old AMCs and MathCounts exams.  They will throw a random geometry problem at you several times on a test.  You will know your student as retained the information if she can solve those problems out of the context of a math textbook.  

[....]

First, the time AoPS is taking is simply not sustainable in dd's school day this year.  

 

I don't have any advice, but this is why we didn't continue with AOPS after the pre algebra book.   :o  It took us 2 years to get through one book and I was afraid we wouldn't even get past algebra 2.  I switched her to Saxon and she's doing fine with that.  I wish there was an AOPS lite version or something.  It's such a great program and it was a good fit for us.  I felt bad switching.

[ChrisB]

Thank you for this thread!  And, thanks, Sebastian, for your tips.  Dd is coming to the end of pre-A, and it's taken two years to work through the book at a moderate pace, year-round, about an hour/day.  I also "worry" it'll take too much time in her high school schedule to continue with the sequence.  Can anyone speak to the pacing coming from the pre-A text to the Intro text?  I realize the pre-A text has a few more chapters, but still... 

[Roadrunner]

Thank you for this thread! And, thanks, Sebastian, for your tips. Dd is coming to the end of pre-A, and it's taken two years to work through the book at a moderate pace, year-round, about an hour/day. I also "worry" it'll take too much time in her high school schedule to continue with the sequence. Can anyone speak to the pacing coming from the pre-A text to the Intro text? I realize the pre-A text has a few more chapters, but still...

It took us 8 months for preA and about 10 months for Intro Algebra as well as geo.

[ChrisB]

Wow!  Ok, it's much slower going here.  Something to definitely consider as we move forward...  Thanks!!

[StephanieZ]

The Geo book is a big huge furry bear. That said, it was ds's fave math year . . . You say your dd loves it and doesn't want to change . . .

 

My thoughts on AoPS is that if the kid loves it and can muddle through with understanding by the end of the chapters . . . it's OK to muddle through. Take your time. 

 

Alcumus can be a big help for reinforcing the material, and the videos can be very helpful teaching the material as well. You can align the videos with the book, having dd watch the video before working the problems . . . The use Alcumus to review/reinforce . . .

 

Your dd is only 9th grade and is muddling through, but is getting through. I'd suggest accepting that it'll be a 12-18 month course. She could finish geometry the first half of 10th grade, then carry on . . . with whatever you decide to do next. (Probably Intermediate Algebra 2nd half 10th-first half of 11th, then PreCalc rest of 11th through 12th, and that'd get through all the basics VERY WELL and she'd be ready to be a star Calc student in college. OR, if she picks up her pace or is willing/able to work math in the summer once or twice, she could compress those schedules and get to Calc in 12th grade. 

 

 

[deerforest]

I predict that I will be writing this post a year from now. DD is doing really well in AoPS intro algebra--better than I would have ever predicted. I have been reading through threads about how big of a jump AoPS geometry is, how much time it takes to get through some proofs.

 

She works an hour a day from the book, plus watches videos and does problems in Alcumus daily. She's slow going but really getting it. She is really proud at how it's going and that she's working through it independently. She thinks she wants to continue with Geometry next year. But, I am disappointed that we won't have any of Richard's videos for Geometry. 

 

I'm really torn as to whether to go with DO or stay with AoPS. So, I'll be eager to hear how it turns out for you. I've decided I'll buy the books and start working through them myself now, though.

[StephanieZ]

I predict that I will be writing this post a year from now. DD is doing really well in AoPS intro algebra--better than I would have ever predicted. I have been reading through threads about how big of a jump AoPS geometry is, how much time it takes to get through some proofs.

 

She works an hour a day from the book, plus watches videos and does problems in Alcumus daily. She's slow going but really getting it. She is really proud at how it's going and that she's working through it independently. She thinks she wants to continue with Geometry next year. But, I am disappointed that we won't have any of Richard's videos for Geometry. 

 

I'm really torn as to whether to go with DO or stay with AoPS. So, I'll be eager to hear how it turns out for you. I've decided I'll buy the books and start working through them myself now, though.

 

I suggest considering doing Patty Paper Geometry before beginning AoPS geo if you want to lay down a strong geo foundation before plunging into AoPS geo. (Allow about 3 months full time for PPG, or 6-9 months doing it 1-2 hours per week.)

[deerforest]

I suggest considering doing Patty Paper Geometry before beginning AoPS geo if you want to lay down a strong geo foundation before plunging into AoPS geo. (Allow about 3 months full time for PPG, or 6-9 months doing it 1-2 hours per week.)

 

We are planning to do it over the summer! I might start it a bit early since I already have it. Glad to hear that it's a good transition!

[skimomma]

 

 

Your dd is only 9th grade and is muddling through, but is getting through. I'd suggest accepting that it'll be a 12-18 month course. She could finish geometry the first half of 10th grade, then carry on . . . with whatever you decide to do next. (Probably Intermediate Algebra 2nd half 10th-first half of 11th, then PreCalc rest of 11th through 12th, and that'd get through all the basics VERY WELL and she'd be ready to be a star Calc student in college. OR, if she picks up her pace or is willing/able to work math in the summer once or twice, she could compress those schedules and get to Calc in 12th grade. 

 

I have been mulling this over for the last few days and I think this is the direction for us.  Dd likes AoPS and is progressing, even if slowly.  I have been too fixated on what I see as the "normal progression" of her getting to calculus for senior year.  When I step back, I would MUCH rather she enjoy and fully understand math than get to a certain point at a certain time.  There are plenty of STEM kids who wait until college to take calculus, I know because I teach them!  And many of those students who did power through calculus while still in high school have weak math skills.  I am going to take some deep breaths and let go of the "plan."  I can count her 8th grade algebra as a high school credit so therefore she will still have four full credits even if I only assign one credit to geometry that takes 1.5 years.  (I know there are other ways to assign credits and I will explore those, but the short answer in my head is that she will still have four full high school credits no matter what).  This also takes the time pressure off should she indeed attend the semester school she is considering.

[MarkT]

I have been mulling this over for the last few days and I think this is the direction for us.  Dd likes AoPS and is progressing, even if slowly.  I have been too fixated on what I see as the "normal progression" of her getting to calculus for senior year.  When I step back, I would MUCH rather she enjoy and fully understand math than get to a certain point at a certain time.  There are plenty of STEM kids who wait until college to take calculus, I know because I teach them!  And many of those students who did power through calculus while still in high school have weak math skills.  I am going to take some deep breaths and let go of the "plan."  I can count her 8th grade algebra as a high school credit so therefore she will still have four full credits even if I only assign one credit to geometry that takes 1.5 years.  (I know there are other ways to assign credits and I will explore those, but the short answer in my head is that she will still have four full high school credits no matter what).  This also takes the time pressure off should she indeed attend the semester school she is considering.

If you are squeezed for schedule, for HS senior year you could do 

 1)  Fall semester of PreCalc  - customize your course as needed 

 2)  Spring semester of Calc -  do not attempt to cover whole college Calc 1 course

 

I did this back in the day and did very well in Calc 1 at my college.

 

I would definitely have some exposure to Calculus in HS.

[skimomma]

 

 

I would definitely have some exposure to Calculus in HS.

 

 

Just curious.  Why?  About half of the engineering students at my university come to school having only completed pre-calc, or less.  Is it just to make that first calc class less of a shock?  Or another reason I have not thought of?

[MarkT]

Just curious.  Why?  About 1) half of the engineering students at my university come to school having only completed pre-calc, or less.  2) Is it just to make that first calc class less of a shock?    3) Or another reason I have not thought of?

1)  What is their success rate and avg GPA?

 

2) AND less of shock in college.

 

3) Because many other colleges with Engineering students have students that have had some Calculus in HS and many selective colleges expect it.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/633179-advantages-to-taking-calculus-in-high-school/

[skimomma]

1)  What is their success rate and avg GPA?

 

2) AND less of shock in college.

 

3) Because many other colleges with Engineering students have students that have had some Calculus in HS and many selective colleges expect it.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/633179-advantages-to-taking-calculus-in-high-school/

 

Thanks for responding and the link.

 

1.  That is a difficult question to answer.  I have actually worked on past assessment cycles at my university and we have some data on retention rates and GPA but it is more difficult to figure out pre-college math background.  Some come from schools that do not even offer calculus so they may start in pre-calc or calc 1 (based on test scores).  Others who took calc in high school might choose to retake it, even if they got a 5 on the AP exam.  It is all over the place.  I have lots of anecdotal info, but that is somewhat useless, obviously.  I suspect the math department would have much more comprehensive data on this.

 

2 and 3.  After reading the linked thread, I think I am still in the same spot.  We will know more as dd approaches the end of her high school years.  She may decide not to pursue a STEM career at all.  But even if she does, I think it is more important to decide the math progression based on taking the time needed for solid understanding.  My "ideal" plan, which includes finishing geometry in one year, was to have dd do intermediate algebra in 10th grade, pre-calc in 11th (at home AoPS style if she does not go to the semester school or one semester DE if she does), and DE calculus in 12th.  The plan being to ease her into college with an in-person DE calc class at the STEM university I work for with the rest of her course load lowered to allow time to transition into college math.  Now that we are making slower-than-expected progress in geometry, which I think I need to consider will also happen in intermediate algebra, it appears pre-calc might be as far as she can get if she does indeed attend the semester school (losing a semester of math time).

 

One option that would also be open to us would be for her to take DE pre-calc in fall of her 12th grade year and DE calc 1 in the spring.  I do have to check with the university to see if they even allow DE pre-calc.  They may not.

 

ETA - We are not so worried about highly-selective schools.  We have easy access to our local university at half price (as employees) and while selective, it is not selective enough that no calc in high school would be a barrier to admission, especially since dd will have a DE track record there.  I struggle with not "setting our bar higher," but frankly, that rat race is not one we are interested in pursuing.  Dd might very well decide she wants to attend a different school and we would not discourage her from pursuing that, but we are likely not going to be chasing down the super elite schools.  Our local university is already very attractive to dd because it is quite competitive in the sport she lives and breathes so I would be pretty surprised if she showed great interest in another school.

Edited November 29, 2017 by skimomma

[wapiti]

Somewhere in this forum there are a few threads that set forth a quicker route through AoPS intermediate algebra and precalc, for situations like this where time to get to calc may be desirable.  See, e.g. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361425-aops-or-college-algebratrig/?p=3744226

College algebra is in the Intermediate Alg text, and Trig is in the Precalculus text. But he doesn't have to complete those two volumes in their entirety in order to do precalculus. The material is wonderful and certainly worthwhile if you have the time, but it goes far beyond what we usually see in a precalc class.

With a good algebra 2 background, he could probably go quickly through the first 4 chapters of Int Alg, then move on to chapters 5 through 16. Then he could cover Chs 1 to 7 and 9 to 11 of Precalculus.

My 'bare bones' precalculus suggestion would be as follows: (This is for a kid who wants to cover what's usually done in precalculus in a text such as Foerster, but who wants an AoPS flavor & doesn't have two years to go through these volumes. Even so, this course outline would still be well beyond Foerster in depth and difficulty.) Do the exercises in each section and the Chapter Reviews. Starred problems and the end of chapter Challenging Problems could be sampled, but don't feel you have to do them all (it's not possible ).

Intermediate algebra textbook:
Ch 1 - 4: review
Ch 5 - 6: all
Ch 7.1 - 7.5
Ch 9.1 - 9.2
Ch 10.1 - 10.5
Ch 11.3 -11.4
Ch 13.1 -13.3, 13.5-6
Ch 14.1
Ch 15.1 - 15.3
Ch 16.1 - 16.3

Precalculus textbook:
Ch 1 - 2
Ch 3.1 - 3.4
Ch 4 - 7
Ch 9 - 11

Anything extra beyond that would be icing on the cake (and the skipped sections are the ones I consider my favorites:), but I understand time constraints).

 

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by wapiti

[kiana]

Honestly, AOPS intro to algebra is SO comprehensive that if she really wanted to accelerate after geometry, she should be able to either work carefully through a standard precalculus text or zoom through an algebra 2 text and then a precalculus text. Ditto for intermediate algebra -- if she completed that and needed to accelerate, she should be able to get a book such as Lial's trigonometry, because the entire algebra portion of a precalculus class (including DE) is covered in intermediate algebra. 

 

I don't think exposure to calculus is as necessary, especially if attending the state college -- although of course it's helpful. If the student *is* exposed to calculus, it really needs to be something that explains the concepts well. I have had serious issues with people who had a (mediocre) HS calculus class, and thought they knew more than they did. 

 

I think one reason calculus is such a shock to the students is because it is the first time that they have been expected to actually remember and use everything they learned in high school, and put it together, and the first time a math class is not composed of a lot of extension of what went before. Even in precalculus, there is a fair amount of review at the beginning -- at calculus there is not, but we just jump in with both feet. Also, calculus really, really highlights algebraic weaknesses, conceptual weaknesses, weaknesses in translating between words and equations -- in a way that prior classes do not. So I would not expect a former AOPS student to struggle with those. 

[skimomma]

 

Somewhere in this forum there are a few threads that set forth a quicker route through AoPS intermediate algebra and precalc, for situations like this where time to get to calc may be desirable.  See, e.g. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361425-aops-or-college-algebratrig/?p=3744226

 

 

 

I bookmarked this....just in case!

[skimomma]

 So I would not expect a former AOPS student to struggle with those. 

 

That's a good point.  And really the crux of the OP.  Is the slower journey through AoPS going to be of more benefit to a potential STEM student than getting through calc 1 while still in high school.   Because dd likes AoPS and has already developed a greater understanding of basic math skills than many of my freshmen engineering students, I think I have the answer even if it means her transcript might not look "ideal" should she indeed pursue a STEM path.

[igbu]

Following and also attempting to sort/plan out DS math track. He loves AoPS classes. Just finished C&P and Adv. Mathcounts. He will finish Alg B in the spring and Geo next year. After intermediate Alg., we are trying to understand if we should continue with AoPS pre-Calc and Calc or plan to DE those classes?

[Arcadia]

 I think one reason calculus is such a shock to the students is because it is the first time that they have been expected to actually remember and use everything they learned in high school, and put it together, and the first time a math class is not composed of a lot of extension of what went before.

I think another reason is that the college (community college and college) quarter system is very compact compared to high school.

 

Quoting from The rush to calculus is bad for students and their futures in STEM

“A typical first-semester calculus course consists of 45 lectures delivered three times per week over a 15-week term. The pace is quick. Contrast that with a typical high school Calculus AB course, which meets five days per week for 180 class meetings. The college course covers the same material in a quarter of the time; students must therefore have solid skills in algebra and geometry along with good study and work habits to succeed.

So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics.

It's precisely this disconnect that causes students to lose their confidence if they don't do well in university calculus. All through high school, the evidence suggested that they were "good at math" because they succeeded in parroting what they saw demonstrated in class. Parroting is not learning, however, and may hide a student's true abilities.

...

We need to stop the rush to calculus and focus instead on a thorough grounding in algebra, geometry and functions.â€

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

 

 

After intermediate Alg., we are trying to understand if we should continue with AoPS pre-Calc and Calc or plan to DE those classes?

My kids prefer not to DE. My oldest is doing the self paced with tutor option now for linear algebra. He has completed AoPS calculus. Other children may prefer the social aspect of DE. For your child, I would suggest crossing that bridge when the time comes because children do change their minds.

[4KookieKids]

I think another reason is that the college (community college and college) quarter system is very compact compared to high school.

 

Quoting from The rush to calculus is bad for students and their futures in STEM

“A typical first-semester calculus course consists of 45 lectures delivered three times per week over a 15-week term. The pace is quick. Contrast that with a typical high school Calculus AB course, which meets five days per week for 180 class meetings. The college course covers the same material in a quarter of the time; students must therefore have solid skills in algebra and geometry along with good study and work habits to succeed.

So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics.

It's precisely this disconnect that causes students to lose their confidence if they don't do well in university calculus. All through high school, the evidence suggested that they were "good at math" because they succeeded in parroting what they saw demonstrated in class. Parroting is not learning, however, and may hide a student's true abilities.

...

We need to stop the rush to calculus and focus instead on a thorough grounding in algebra, geometry and functions.â€

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

 

 

 

This is interesting for me to think about, because I do teach at a large university, and we run a lot of calculus courses... Like, there were 20 Calc I large section courses offered this fall (so around 100 students per section). But I think the failure rate is around 50% each term...

[kiana]

I think another reason is that the college (community college and college) quarter system is very compact compared to high school.

 

(snipped)

...

We need to stop the rush to calculus and focus instead on a thorough grounding in algebra, geometry and functions.â€

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

 

I think that is another important reason, and it's also (for many students) the first time they've been responsible for their own time outside of class -- transition to all college math classes is challenging for this reason.

 

I also agree 100% with the second point. I would far rather teach students who had had nothing other than algebra and geometry in high school, and actually thoroughly understood them (as well as fractions, for Pete's sake). I have "College algebra" texts from the 1930s for students "entering with algebra and geometry", intended to be followed by a trigonometry text, and they, frankly, exceed our modern calculus texts in rigor if not in content. If we had students entering who had actually gone slower and understood their algebra and geometry, we could teach those classes properly to the freshmen, and use something really serious for calculus as sophomores, then enter directly into the junior/senior classes rather than having the sophomore transition classes we have now (at all but the very best schools). 

 

But as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like world peace and a pony. 

[RootAnn]

But as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like world peace and a pony. 

 

:lol:  I read that creekland's selling her ponies. World peace might be harder to come by.

 

... This is one of the reasons I'm making sure dd#2 is rock solid on Alg 1 (and having her do daily math review of arithmetic basics) instead of rushing her through. I'd rather she get through Alg 2 with solid understanding than get all the way through Pre-Calc with a sketchy base. And we're just doing Jacobs, not AoPS!

[MarkT]

I think another reason is that the college (community college and college) quarter system is very compact compared to high school.

 

Quoting from The rush to calculus is bad for students and their futures in STEM

“A typical first-semester calculus course consists of 45 lectures delivered three times per week over a 15-week term. The pace is quick. Contrast that with a typical high school Calculus AB course, which meets five days per week for 180 class meetings. The college course covers the same material in a quarter of the time; students must therefore have solid skills in algebra and geometry along with good study and work habits to succeed.

So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics.

It's precisely this disconnect that causes students to lose their confidence if they don't do well in university calculus. All through high school, the evidence suggested that they were "good at math" because they succeeded in parroting what they saw demonstrated in class. Parroting is not learning, however, and may hide a student's true abilities.

...

We need to stop the rush to calculus and focus instead on a thorough grounding in algebra, geometry and functions.”

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

 

 

My kids prefer not to DE. My oldest is doing the self paced with tutor option now for linear algebra. He has completed AoPS calculus. Other children may prefer the social aspect of DE. For your child, I would suggest crossing that bridge when the time comes because children do change their minds.

I totally agree with the rush to Calculus these days. Some charter schools around here have 8th grade students in Calculus AB!

But in the case here with an AoPS student, one semester or less of exposure before college as a HS Senior would be just fine. I am sure this student will be successful either way.

[madteaparty]

Just wondering, and sorry for the tangent, but is calculus of the essence, for admission purposes, for a kid that will most definitely not go into any STEM? The most "sciency" thing I predict for this one is psychology. Thanks all.

ETA that we do have the time and we may end up doing calc just as the next thing to do in order to have 4 yrs of math.

Edited December 2, 2017 by madteaparty

[chiguirre]

Just wondering, and sorry for the tangent, but is calculus of the essence, for admission purposes, for a kid that will most definitely not go into any STEM? The most "sciency" thing I predict for this one is psychology. Thanks all.

ETA that we do have the time and we may end up doing calc just as the next thing to do in order to have 4 yrs of math.

If he might want to do econ or undergrad business, he'll need 2 semesters of calculus and statistics. That doesn't mean he has to do them in high school but it does make university easier if you've already done them. Calc is also a marker for rigorous high school coursework. Obviously, AOPS Intermediate Algebra and PreCalc is even more rigorous than most AP Calc classes but it's less of a known quantity.

[wapiti]

Just wondering, and sorry for the tangent, but is calculus of the essence, for admission purposes, for a kid that will most definitely not go into any STEM? The most "sciency" thing I predict for this one is psychology. Thanks all.

ETA that we do have the time and we may end up doing calc just as the next thing to do in order to have 4 yrs of math.

 

I think it depends on how high he is aiming.  I'm not sure how much college adcoms care unless the college is a top-ranked school, but I don't know where that falls off - top-30 or top-50, perhaps, with a continuum of importance along the way?