Another (long) post about my son . . . (Update #2 in post 172)

[LucyStoner]

And as for the "what does it matter if he gets the associate's or not?" question, even if the degree is not actually required for a job, having it demonstrates a certain basic level of academic ability and work ethic. If I'm a hiring manager and see two 19 y.o. applicants with similar experience but one has an associate's while the other just has a high school diploma, I'm going to prioritize the one with an associate's for an interview.

 

Another possible benefit to getting an associate degree. In my state, with a degree, the credits last longer for meeting prerequisites.  I know people with an AA or AS degree who returned to college 5-10+ years later and had all of their credits transfer/be accepted.  At least here, those without the 2-year degree usually didn't fare so well as that credit wise on starting school again.  

Edited August 2, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Scarlett]

That is a great update.   He sounds like a great kid too.

[lllll]

Jenny, that sounds wonderful.  I'm glad everything worked out.  :)

[TechWife]

But getting them to the point where they recognize that need is a helpful move in the right direction.

 

Yes! I am hoping my son will get to that point. He really needs help organizationally and probably will for an indefinite period of time. 

[chelsi82]

I'm leaning towards being compassionate. If he had entered college after a traditional four years of high school, he would just finished his freshman year, right?

 

If he was a 5 year old kindergarten student, working at the 4th grade level, you'd probably still have to teach him to tie his shoes? He's academically advanced/gifted/something but he's a 19 year old developmentally.

So much this! My husband is gifted, with ADD that affects his executive function, and his emotional development/cognitive planning didn't catch up until well after he turned 18. In fact, I generally handle things like car registration/inspection & oversee home/car maintenance getting done or they just don't. It has nothing to do with laziness, for sure.

 

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[chelsi82]

My older ds is 2E. When he was 6, he had huge evaluation at a children's hospital. After a couple of full days of testing and some extended period for professionals to analyze results, we sat down with a doctor. He said ds is very smart. He's going to do terrible in school until he gets to his PhD--ds will be ok when he's 25. You have to keep him alive until then. That was it. They couldn't give a roadmap except to say it would be very rocky and very windy.

 

If I'm not mistaken, based on past info your DS may be in the profoundly gifted range of IQ. That by itself is a bit of a handicap, because the world operates to serve people who are really above average. So there's a complete disconnect.

 

He's 19. I think if I wanted him to have a degree and I consider making regular appointments with him to get the steps done. He clearly is not mature enough to coordinate the crap details of life. So, I take him and sit outside the registrar's office while he did whatever to finish up the AA. then I'd sit and fo the transfer application with him and sit with him each time a new document needed to be completed for that application.

 

I know lots of people be will disagree, but lots of people do not have children who fall completely out of the realm of typical.

 

My ds graduated this spring after a few false starts at one college and a cc. He leaves in 2 weeks for the next step towards his dream of getting a PhD (just like the doctor said he would). I do think graduate degrees will be easier than his BA, because he will be doing only stuff he wants. My ds is 22. He'll be on his own across the country. I expect some bumps, but he is beginning to figure out follow through. Follow through for my ds was non-existent at 19.

 

Good luck

Not trying to hijack, but i want to second this. This describes my husband perfectly. I'm sure he'd tell you he wishes he had your support in his teen/young adult years--his career outcome would have been very different!

 

Also, I think it's OK to explain the burnout, for lack of a better word. You can work together to accomplish these goals, whatever they may be. There has to be some kind of balance between you as paperwork manager-mom, and mom taking care of herself, too KWIM?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Katy]

If you go to the meeting with the advisor, or if you have him go, please ask (or have him ask) if they have a service for evaluating learning disabilities & executive function.  I know it doesn't seem like he could have inattentive type ADHD, but I do, and my DH does, and our symptoms are incredibly close to your DS's. High IQ's meant we didn't get diagnosed until well into adulthood, when plenty of early attempts at things failed. We didn't do nearly as well in our early 20's as we would have if we'd been diagnosed and decided to get behavioral therapy to help us get systems in place to get administrative type stuff accomplished.

 

Now we have systems - online bill pay, IPhone task reminders, etc, to help with these things.  But our early adult lives would have been FAR easier if we (and our parents) understood what our problems were and that neither of us were being lazy.  Even if eventually your responsibilities "managing" him to to a spouse or a paid assistant, it would help him immensely if he had the skills in place to handle these aspects of his life himself.  Sooner or later assistants go on vacation and spouses get sick.

[Jenny in Florida]

Update #2:

 

So, we did, as I mentioned in my previous update we had planned to do, go to campus and have him meet with an advisor. They walked through my son's transcripts and verified that he can graduate with the A.A. at the end of the fall semester if he:

• finishes the three classes he's signed up for this semester.
• follows through on getting the one course substitution approved.
• orders fresh transcripts from the private university that do not show any courses "in progress."
• submits the graduation application on time (and after taking care of the transcripts and course substitution tasks).

We ordered the transcripts that afternoon, and I have verified they were received.

 

He contacted the appropriate folks and has gotten the course substitution through channels. I checked yesterday and verified that the substitution is reflected on his degree requirements.

 

He's away this week, but we will sit down and do the graduation application together once he's back in town.

 

Also, it took some attention from me, but he got approved to take an online class at the state U as a "transient" student, in addition to the three classes he's taking at the community college. That bumps him back up to full-time student status and also allows him to knock off a required course for the university dance minor. 

 

The state U classes started a week earlier than the CC's, so he's already done (and aced) the first week's assignments for that one.

 

He submitted a fresh transfer application to the state U for the spring semester, and we re-ordered all of the required transcripts. 

 

I went through his records and compared what he's already taken with the degree program at the state U. Even looking at things pretty pessimistically, assuming some things won't transfer at all and that others may no be considered equivalent to meet specific requirements, I estimate that he'll need to do about 30 credit hours to complete a general "Theatre Studies" degree with a minor in dance. Fortuitously, the state U requires 30 credit hours to be completed in residence. 

 

It will depend, of course, on whether he is able to schedule the exact classes he needs when he wants them, but that makes it theoretically possible that he could finish up the B.A. in two semesters. And he has the option of using the summer term, too, which makes the odds good that he can graduate at the end of the fall 2018 semester. 

 

In the process of discussing the administrative details, we've talked a couple more times about whether he would prefer to stop after the A.A., and he finally told me, somewhat irritably, that, after devoting five years (counting DE) to this project, he "damned well" wants to get that degree.

 

Although school as school will likely not ever be his favorite thing, he is cautiously looking forward to this semester. Of his four classes, only two are on campus, meaning he has been able to consolidate them onto two days each week. And they align with days/times his girlfriend also has to be on campus, making carpooling easier. He has begun rehearsals for the super-secret performance thing, and they did a photo shoot for their posters and promo materials, which means it won't need to be secret for too much longer. The neatly consolidated class schedule and consistent rehearsal schedule mean that he will be able to broaden his availability at work and, he hopes, get more hours in there, especially since things are ramping up for the holiday season.

 

So, I'm still knocking on wood and keeping my fingers crossed (which makes it hard to type), but this just might work out.

 

Thank you again for all of the helpful feedback!

[bettyandbob]

Good update!

[unsinkable]

I'm happy to read your good news.

 

And the Nancy Drew/Kinsey Millhone can't wait to find out the super secret project!

[Lilaclady]

That's great!!! All the best to you all.

[Catwoman]

Thank you for the update, Jenny -- I'm so glad to hear that things are working out so well for your son! :hurray:

[Guest]

That's all great news!

[TechWife]

Sounds like things are going great! Hang in there!

[displace]

ðŸ‘

[kroe1]

Ugh, please do not hate me. I am trying to gently play devil's advocate:

 

1. This kid is old enough to get himself in and out of college.

2. You are spending a ton of work, worry, and time helping him get a degree that is considered the lowest paying degree there is right now.

3. A degree really isn't needed to do community or local dinner theatre. Many studio and theater directors do not even have degrees.

4. Most movie stars and certainly most professional dancers do not have degrees.

5. What is the ultimate goal? If it is to get him out of your wallet, your better bet would be to make him take business courses or some such so that he can get a job which pays for his theater hobby. Those classes will also help him open a studio one day.

6. Consider sending him out to LA so that he can start auditioning while he is young. Many from our local high school are now in videos, Monster ambassadors, or working in the competition industry in some capacity. They are ALL struggling to make ends meet. I recently saw a GOFundMe for one of the more successful ones. He needed rent money. Nonetheless, the local performing arts school encourages all the better kids to do this. He can finish his degree later. It will always be there.

[bettyandbob]

Ugh, please do not hate me. I am trying to gently play devil's advocate:

 

1. This kid is old enough to get himself in and out of college.

2. You are spending a ton of work, worry, and time helping him get a degree that is considered the lowest paying degree there is right now.

3. A degree really isn't needed to do community or local dinner theatre. Many studio and theater directors do not even have degrees.

4. Most movie stars and certainly most professional dancers do not have degrees.

5. What is the ultimate goal? If it is to get him out of your wallet, your better bet would be to make him take business courses or some such so that he can get a job which pays for his theater hobby. Those classes will also help him open a studio one day.

6. Consider sending him out to LA so that he can start auditioning while he is young. Many from our local high school are now in videos, Monster ambassadors, or working in the competition industry in some capacity. They are ALL struggling to make ends meet. I recently saw a GOFundMe for one of the more successful ones. He needed rent money. Nonetheless, the local performing arts school encourages all the better kids to do this. He can finish his degree later. It will always be there.

So not helpful.

[catz]

Not every kid is a fully formed and mature adult magically at age 18.  If your kids are, count yourself lucky instead of assuming someone else is not parenting right.  The young adult said he wanted to finish the degree and they are providing a little structure to help with success.  Now that we're looking at colleges for my junior, it's amazing the differences in hand holding available at colleges themselves. 

 

Having a degree of any type can open doors for completely unrelated jobs.  Weird but true.  I know people with music degrees working in finance and people with theater degrees who've gone to law school, etc.   And sometimes taking the time to finish a degree can give a young person the time to gain some maturity and focus in addition to having that piece of paper. 

[GailV]

Ugh, please do not hate me. I am trying to gently play devil's advocate:

 

 

4. Most movie stars and certainly most professional dancers do not have degrees.

 

 

The movie industry is changing -- 10 years ago it was direct entry, and those people are currently very visible.  The ones who are breaking in and and continuing to work these days have degrees.  (Notice how many British actors play American roles?  They take the study of acting seriously.)

Edited August 26, 2017 by GailV

[nixpix5]

Thank you.

 

Although I appreciate the concern and the general feedback I've been receiving here -- it's always helpful to get other perspectives, in part because formulating responses to them helps me to clarify my own thoughts -- I would politely and respectfully point out that what I actually requested was for folks to share their experiences with integrating a non-student young adult as a contributing member of the household.

 

I'm still hopeful that, come Monday, my son will show up with either a plan or the intention of working with me in an immediate and focused way to get him enrolled somewhere within that week. When we last discussed this in any depth a few weeks ago, we did talk about him spending one more semester at the CC, taking the three classes necessary to check off those boxes for the AA and filling in with a class or two that are likely to transfer cleanly to the state university. So, if he shows up on Monday saying that's what he wants to do and is prepared to set a date and time before Friday to have me go with him to the CC and get that done, I'm willing to stretch our "deadline" that far. I suspect that is what will end up happening.

 

However, just in case that isn't how things shake out and we do end up needing to follow through with the "treat him like an adult" option, I would still appreciate hearing from others about how similar situations work in your families.

It does sound like you have a plan for him with clear boundaries and expectations. I would hold to them. If he enrolls and finishes his AA allow him to continue living with you rent free through the quarter. If he truly does not want to finish his AA well...he is an adult. You cannot make him. Remind him of the expiration of credits and move into an adult role. Draw up a rental agreement with him as an adult tennant and split some of the bills. It doesn't have to be exorbitant but should reflect the cost of living on his own in the area splitting costs with GF or roommates.

 

I will add to not continue to move the boundary around for him. The longer you function for him the harder it will be and longer it will take to reach maturity. Kids do rise to the challenge when natural life consequences kick them in the butt a little but what you don't want is those consequences to be expensive for him. They get continually more expensive as he gets older, this is why it is key to allow him autonomy and to not rescue him when things go wrong. For example, if he decides to live with you and work, don't be his alarm clock or time reminder. This is the trap I have seen when adult children live at home. Parents continue to function and hold them in a state of adolescence. Let him fail a bit. It builds resilience and is especially good for those with EF struggles.

 

Let me address that too. I have been slightly shocked at the number of posts claiming EF and ADHD is this issue that will require life long help and should be an excuse. Yikes, don't take that advice. Nothing could be farther from the truth. ADHD is a neurotransmitter imbalance that requires a greater natural consequence to lead to the same learning objective. Getting a poor grade for forgetting homework isn't usually enough. They need something like loss of a dating relationship a few times or loss of a job a few times and so forth. Sure, people can rescue them until the end of time but nothing will ever change and at some point change in this area becomes next to impossible (in the 30s most typically). Parents just need to be comfortable with letting the young adult fail and then instead of "do this" or "I told you so" or "here is a list of things to do" be a listening ear, empathize and share times in your own life where failure has been a powerful motivator or learning opportunity.

 

Just don't coddle. Nothing good comes of it and those that do will be coddling for many decades to come. Boundaries are loving. Coddling and over functioning until an adult cannot exist on their own is abuse by love. It sounds like you have a plan and sticking to it without making exceptions will get you to where he needs to be.

Edited August 26, 2017 by nixpix5

[catz]

I really don't recall any posts on this thread that advocate life long coddling.  This is a 19 year old.  Science's current theory is the male brain can take a while to mature.  This particular young man has a lot of positive going on in his life and is willing to accept help to make this particular thing happen.  That doesn't mean it will last forever or the OP can't be re-evaluating as time goes on.   

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708

[Jenny in Florida]

Ugh, please do not hate me. I am trying to gently play devil's advocate:

 

1. This kid is old enough to get himself in and out of college.

2. You are spending a ton of work, worry, and time helping him get a degree that is considered the lowest paying degree there is right now.

3. A degree really isn't needed to do community or local dinner theatre. Many studio and theater directors do not even have degrees.

4. Most movie stars and certainly most professional dancers do not have degrees.

5. What is the ultimate goal? If it is to get him out of your wallet, your better bet would be to make him take business courses or some such so that he can get a job which pays for his theater hobby. Those classes will also help him open a studio one day.

6. Consider sending him out to LA so that he can start auditioning while he is young. Many from our local high school are now in videos, Monster ambassadors, or working in the competition industry in some capacity. They are ALL struggling to make ends meet. I recently saw a GOFundMe for one of the more successful ones. He needed rent money. Nonetheless, the local performing arts school encourages all the better kids to do this. He can finish his degree later. It will always be there.

 

I kind of have whiplash from reading these points. I can't decide whether I'm parenting wrong because I shouldn't be helping my young adult son finish college or because I should be "making" him study something different or "sending" him somewhere he has no interest in going.

1. If you have raised a 19 year old who is capable of handling his or her life entirely on his or her own, congrats. (I actually do have one of those, but I also recognize that every person is an individual and life is not a race.) This particular 19 year old has a lot on his plate and has acknowledged that he needs some help to achieve this goal. Our family culture runs in part on the understanding that those of us who are especially capable in a certain area pitch in and help those whose strengths may lie in other areas. I happen to be pretty knowledgeable about academic stuff and tenacious about research and managing paperwork. He's not. It makes sense for me to provide back-up.
2. Our family culture also does not determine the value of education based on future paychecks. 
3. The goal of him getting a degree is not about the short-term, but about trying to provide him options for the future. His aspirations extend beyond "community or local dinner theatre." Also, I'm not sure which theatres you are familiar with, but the vast majority of directors my offspring have worked with do have degrees, often more than one. *
4. He has no interest in being a "movie star." And, while he dances, he is not especially interested in making a career of that, either.
5. The ultimate goal is for him to be a happy, healthy, functional and independent adult. While my role as a parent is to provide support and advice to the best of my ability, I am by no means arrogant enough to assume I can shape his life to fit my vision or expectations. 
6. He has no intention of going to L.A.; he's a theatre person. Like his big sister (who, by the way, is supporting herself despite the dreaded "low paying" theatre degree), he is likely to move to NY after he graduates. Our own family's experiences inform our advice that he finish his degree first. Several of us have found that "later" doesn't work out very well.

Having a degree means that, when he applies for day jobs, he can check off the box saying he has one.

 

It means that certain more interesting, higher-paying day jobs, such as teaching, will be open to him.

 

It means that, once he has a few years of experience and living under his belt and has a clearer picture of what he wants to do long term, he would be able to go directly to grad school, if that's appropriate. 

 

As I said above, every person is an individual, but my son has paid attention to his big sister's experiences. Especially once she moved to NYC, she found that having a degree, any degree, allowed her to compete for jobs that more or less pay the rent. And having a degree in theatre put her in the running for jobs that are more interesting to her than being a barista. She teaches theatre classes for kids, for example, and is being considered for a program that provides arts experiences in public schools, which would not be a possibility if she did not have a degree.

 

Now that she's been on her own and working for a few years, too, her long-term goals are falling into place. In her case, those goals likely require graduate school. So, she is spending this year getting her ducks in a row to start applying to programs. If she had not finished her B.A., she would not now be in a position to move forward.

 

So, the picture is a lot more nuanced than your list seems to paint it.

 

 

 

* A recent example: My daughter recently performed in a short piece that was part of a festival of new plays. The playwright has a B.A. from Georgetown and is working on an MFA at Yale. The director graduated from Dartmouth. The choreographer graduated from Princeton. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Jenny in Florida

[nixpix5]

I really don't recall any posts on this thread that advocate life long coddling. This is a 19 year old. Science's current theory is the male brain can take a while to mature. This particular young man has a lot of positive going on in his life and is willing to accept help to make this particular thing happen. That doesn't mean it will last forever or the OP can't be re-evaluating as time goes on.

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708

No, it becomes lifelong the longer adulthood is delayed.

 

Yes, all brains actually continue to develop well into the 20s. Male and female. I am both a neuroscientist and a mental health therapist so I am qualified to speak on this. My post was based on years of successfully helping families with this same issue and my own research is often referenced in many of these books. I also have 5 kids, two of which are well into their 20s. One I adopted who had reactive attachment disorder and ADHD who is very successful now.

 

The world is currently not set up for optimum male brain usage. Many moons ago men owned property, ran farms and had families at 15 successfully. We need to stop pathologizing kids and realize that everyone has their own giftings and their brain is wired for those things.

 

Years of working with young people has proven to me that if you think your child with inattention can do it they will and if you think they will fail without help they will.