S/O Developmentally and age expected behavior, punishment and sin.........

[Joanne]

Since the "Are babies sinners" thread has morphed into a theological and spiritual debate, elements of the original discussion that are important to me have been lost.

 

IME, catagorizing the behavior of babies, toddlers and preschoolers as "sin" sets up a tone and dynamic that leads down an unnecessary and *extra*Biblical road.

 

Babies cry. Babies want attention, to be held, to be rocked, to be talked to, to take your glasses off your face, to crawl instead of have their diaper changed.

 

Toddlers want candy, cookies, cake and TV. Sometimes they will even scream if they don't get them. Toddlers don't want you to teach algebra to your 13 year old.

 

Preschoolers would rather run to the car than walk slowly and safely in the parking lot. They will take a toy to play with, even if that means taking when another child is playing with it.

 

These are developmentally expected behaviors. Most of them should be responded to with *discipline* that matches the age/maturity of the child. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

But here's the truth. We aren't our child's Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit isn't talking to them during the above and above type moments because they are not sinning. They are being children.

 

We can't punish them into another developmental stage. We can't punish them into keeping themselves safe (ie: spank them for running into the street and then put them on the curb and walk away). We can't punish them into maturity. Often, discipine and punishment is what parents do in the space between the action and when the child moves on to another stage.

 

For over 10 years, I've worked with moms/families who have evaluated children's behavior through the paradigm of "sin" and that they are Biblically bound to correct it. We *are* instructed to discipline, admonish, and chastise. We are told to train them in the way they should go (caveat, it also says when they are OLD they will not depart from it).

 

Babies don't sin; toddlers don't sin; preschoolers don't sin. They need our loving, patient, nearly constant help, affection and care. They need us to see their behavior as it is: moving through the God designed stages to learn, explore and develop.

 

My kids are 13.5, nearly 12 and nearly 10. Have *they* sinned? Absolutely.

 

I hate the quote (I've seen it and heard it from several different places including the original thread) that we don't have to teach children bad behavior = they are born sinners. Some, as in the original thread add on "but we have to teach them good behavior". Actually, my kids have engaged in both good and not appropriate behavior naturally and intuitively.

[HRAAB]

Very good post. :iagree:

 

Janet

[beansprouts]

For over 10 years, I've worked with moms/families who have evaluated children's behavior through the paradigm of "sin" and that they are Biblically bound to correct it. We *are* instructed to discipline, admonish, and chastise. We are told to train them in the way they should go (caveat, it also says when they are OLD they will not depart from it).

 

Babies don't sin; toddlers don't sin; preschoolers don't sin. They need our loving, patient, nearly constant help, affection and care. They need us to see their behavior as it is: moving through the God designed stages to learn, explore and develop.

 

I don't think the concept of original sin necessarily needs to lead to a punitive mindset. I think the recognition that our children struggle with sin should inspire compassion, and introspection. Very often our children mirror our own sins. So, instead of trying to take the speck from our children's eye we should first concentrate on the log in our own. Once we have dealt with our own sin, then we can return to our children and gently and lovingly guide them through their own struggles as one who has been there.

 

The other problem is with how we define sin. I believe strongly that it is an attitude of the heart, and not necessarily behavior. A four year old who lies is not necessarily trying to decieve or hide a sin, very often he is trying "pretend it didn't happen" because he truly wishes it didn't. When my toddler hits and thinks it is a game, he is not sinning because he does not intend to hurt, he thinks it is fun. When my dd repeats a word she heard her mother say a few times too many :blushing: she does not necessarily mean to be rude or offensive. So the real trick is to see the child's heart, and where there is no sinful attitude, IMO there is no sin.

 

Now that does not mean I shouldn't teach the children to behave appropriately. I do explain to my son that he needs to speak the truth. I redirect my toddler when he hits and I tell my dd that I shouldn't have said the word, and she shouldn't either. However, I don't make a huge deal out of these things because I know with maturity they will learn correct social behavior. I am far more concerned with the condition of their hearts. I want them to learn to be in relationship with Christ, and this is not something that can be accomplished through punishment.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that part of this debate is simply the definition of sin. Children are born sinners simply means that they are born imperfect. They have an inborn tendancy to bad thoughts. They also have been created in God's image, like all of us, so they will have inborn good qualities as well.

 

Now it does sound like people who use that term are probably very harsh parents and use this as their reasoning.

 

Cindy had very good points. Our Father looks at the heart condition and motivation behind a behavior before it is determined something that needs punishment.

 

Would a perfect child require less discipline? Of course. They would probably not forget a lesson once it has been taught. But it would need to be taught to begin with. An imperfect toddler will go back to the stove again and again even after they know it is wrong. A toddler knows something is wrong once they understand the word NO and their parents have applied this word to the action. A perfect toddler might want to play with the stove but it should happen only once because they will have the impulse control and memory of a perfect person.

[swellmomma]

I agree that a lot of what gets punished is simply age appropriate behaviour. But I think it is foolish to think young children should not be punished, only chastised etc for some behaviours. I am thinking of my own personal struggle with my oldest son. As a toddler/preschooler he was terrible to deal with, on top of age appropriate behaviours, he set fires, smeared feces everywhere daily, put a knife to his sister's throat, tried to kill our kitten, intentionally broke almost everything int he house, ran away constantly, you get the idea. Yes he had other issues, but safety is paramount and just talking to him, time outs etc do not keep the family and him safe, punishment had to be given.

[Lovedtodeath]

Wow Brandy! You have been through the wringer.:grouphug:

[OnTheBrink]

I'm sorry; I've been through that whole thread, more than once, and I guess I missed where someone advocated punishing a baby for crying. I think someone ASSUMED that was being said, and I addressed that myself in the thread, but I never saw anyone actually state that it's perfectly OK to punish an infant for crying.

 

Would someone be so kind as to link me to where someone actually said it was acceptable to punish a child for simply being a child? Or are we really just splitting hairs over when it's appropriate to punish children?

[beansprouts]

Would a perfect child require less discipline? Of course. They would probably not forget a lesson once it has been taught. But it would need to be taught to begin with. An imperfect toddler will go back to the stove again and again even after they know it is wrong. A toddler knows something is wrong once they understand the word NO and their parents have applied this word to the action. A perfect toddler might want to play with the stove but it should happen only once because they will have the impulse control and memory of a perfect person.

 

"They know it is wrong" can be an unfair assumption, though. A toddler is still learning about words and what they mean and developing his sense of logic. Therefore, when you tell him "Don't touch" he first needs to figure out what the words mean. The only way he has to do this is by experimentation. Toddlers are scientists ;) "Can I touch it now? How about now? What if I touch it with this hand? What if I touch the front of the stove and not the top?" After a few minutes the tot may lose interest and run off to experiment with the earth's gravitational pull on the end table lamp, and completely forget about the "Don't touch the stove" game. When he returns to the stove he may or may not remember that he was told not to touch it, and the game begins all over again.

 

Is he sinning? No. He is growing and learning in the way God programmed him to do. ;)

Edited October 30, 2008 by beansprouts
typo

[Guest janainaz]

Since the "Are babies sinners" thread has morphed into a theological and spiritual debate, elements of the original discussion that are important to me have been lost.

 

IME, catagorizing the behavior of babies, toddlers and preschoolers as "sin" sets up a tone and dynamic that leads down an unnecessary and *extra*Biblical road.

 

Babies cry. Babies want attention, to be held, to be rocked, to be talked to, to take your glasses off your face, to crawl instead of have their diaper changed.

 

Toddlers want candy, cookies, cake and TV. Sometimes they will even scream if they don't get them. Toddlers don't want you to teach algebra to your 13 year old.

 

Preschoolers would rather run to the car than walk slowly and safely in the parking lot. They will take a toy to play with, even if that means taking when another child is playing with it.

 

These are developmentally expected behaviors. Most of them should be responded to with *discipline* that matches the age/maturity of the child. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

But here's the truth. We aren't our child's Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit isn't talking to them during the above and above type moments because they are not sinning. They are being children.

 

We can't punish them into another developmental stage. We can't punish them into keeping themselves safe (ie: spank them for running into the street and then put them on the curb and walk away). We can't punish them into maturity. Often, discipine and punishment is what parents do in the space between the action and when the child moves on to another stage.

 

For over 10 years, I've worked with moms/families who have evaluated children's behavior through the paradigm of "sin" and that they are Biblically bound to correct it. We *are* instructed to discipline, admonish, and chastise. We are told to train them in the way they should go (caveat, it also says when they are OLD they will not depart from it).

 

Babies don't sin; toddlers don't sin; preschoolers don't sin. They need our loving, patient, nearly constant help, affection and care. They need us to see their behavior as it is: moving through the God designed stages to learn, explore and develop.

 

My kids are 13.5, nearly 12 and nearly 10. Have *they* sinned? Absolutely.

 

I hate the quote (I've seen it and heard it from several different places including the original thread) that we don't have to teach children bad behavior = they are born sinners. Some, as in the original thread add on "but we have to teach them good behavior". Actually, my kids have engaged in both good and not appropriate behavior naturally and intuitively.

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

What is the "rod of discipline"? Did shepherds routinely beat their sheep with the rod? What did that phrase mean to a shepherd? It meant that he stayed with his sheep and was ready to gently redirect their steps. It meant that when they stumbled he would pick them up and get them back with the rest of the flock. For particularly vulnerable sheep he would keep them in his bosom. Does the rod of discipline sound harsh now? Does imitating God's example when disciplining our children mean that we must beat sin out of them?

 

 

 

P.S. Cindy, thank you for adding to my comments. I love what you had to say.

[beansprouts]

I agree that a lot of what gets punished is simply age appropriate behaviour. But I think it is foolish to think young children should not be punished, only chastised etc for some behaviours. I am thinking of my own personal struggle with my oldest son. As a toddler/preschooler he was terrible to deal with, on top of age appropriate behaviours, he set fires, smeared feces everywhere daily, put a knife to his sister's throat, tried to kill our kitten, intentionally broke almost everything int he house, ran away constantly, you get the idea. Yes he had other issues, but safety is paramount and just talking to him, time outs etc do not keep the family and him safe, punishment had to be given.

 

I agree that there are times we need to force our children to comply for their own safety and that of others. I do not think it is wrong to use a negative consequence to modify behavior. I just think it needs to be done very carefully.

 

I'm sorry; I've been through that whole thread, more than once, and I guess I missed where someone advocated punishing a baby for crying. I think someone ASSUMED that was being said, and I addressed that myself in the thread, but I never saw anyone actually state that it's perfectly OK to punish an infant for crying.

 

Would someone be so kind as to link me to where someone actually said it was acceptable to punish a child for simply being a child? Or are we really just splitting hairs over when it's appropriate to punish children?

 

I did not see anyone in the thread advocating punishing a baby for crying. I think the reaction was to the suggestion that a baby who cries is sinning, and the concern is it could lead to a punitive response.

 

The problem is that there are some very damaging parenting philosophies out there which twist scripture and are downright abusive physically, emotionally and spiritually to children. Joanne, and I have both experienced these among people we know in real life. Because of this we may be a little sensitive to the issue.

[Kim in Appalachia]

need redemption. When my pre-schooler sins it is my job to help him learn that it is sin, and that his behavior is wrong before God. When my children are selfish or unloving toward each other it becomes my job to help them learn that they are sinning. And that as Christians we need to look to Christ to change our hearts so that we will love instead.

 

Knowing that my children are born sinners means I know that they will sin. It is not a surprise. I should look on them with compassion, not anger. We are all sinners, only saved by grace, not by our own works. I do not expect my children to instantly become good. I know that fighting sin is/can be a life long battle. So I am not discouraged (at least I shouldn't be :D) when my kids commit the same sins over and over again.

 

A baby is born in sin, and does sin, but my job is to teach that child a better way. You do that by offering all of the love and security that you can. You hold them, feed them, comfort them and pray that they learn that the Lord cares for them even more than you do.

 

Believing your children (or babies) are sinners is no excuse for neglecting or abusing them.

[OnTheBrink]

Eh, I'm walking away from this topic. There are too many things in the OP that I completely disagree with and I don't have the time or energy for it today.

 

Off to skip through daisies and give dd a math test....

[teamturner]

I don't think the concept of original sin necessarily needs to lead to a punitive mindset. I think the recognition that our children struggle with sin should inspire compassion, and introspection. Very often our children mirror our own sins. So, instead of trying to take the speck from our children's eye we should first concentrate on the log in our own. Once we have dealt with our own sin, then we can return to our children and gently and lovingly guide them through their own struggles as one who has been there.

 

The other problem is with how we define sin. I believe strongly that it is an attitude of the heart, and not necessarily behavior. A four year old who lies is not necessarily trying to decieve or hide a sin, very often he is trying "pretend it didn't happen" because he truly wishes it didn't. When my toddler hits and thinks it is a game, he is not sinning because he does not intend to hurt, he thinks it is fun. When my dd repeats a word she heard her mother say a few times too many :blushing: she does not necessarily mean to be rude or offensive. So the real trick is to see the child's heart, and where there is no sinful attitude, IMO there is no sin.

 

Now that does not mean I shouldn't teach the children to behave appropriately. I do explain to my son that he needs to speak the truth. I redirect my toddler when he hits and I tell my dd that I shouldn't have said the word, and she shouldn't either. However, I don't make a huge deal out of these things because I know with maturity they will learn correct social behavior. I am far more concerned with the condition of their hearts. I want them to learn to be in relationship with Christ, and this is not something that can be accomplished through punishment.

 

:iagree: I love how you put this. I believe in "original sin" but I don't imagine for a second that I need to correct behavior in a young baby. Once my babies are mobile and able to harm themselves I start redirecting and teaching what "no touch" means and so forth. There is a small consequence for touching things I've told them not to touch (i.e. outlets). The typical teaching of proper behavior in each stage of life is appropriate. But I agree with the idea of showing our children compassion as I am a sinner too. Now that my older children are older, I speak very clearly about our struggles with sin and how we need to ask God to help us (me included).

 

I did hear from friends about someone they knew that corrected long bouts of crying in their baby by doing something to the baby (I'm not going to say as I don't remember exactly) that I thought was horrible. That's the only example I've ever heard of someone taking this idea of "original sin" to the inappropriate point.

[TXMomof4]

What is the "rod of discipline"? Did shepherds routinely beat their sheep with the rod? What did that phrase mean to a shepherd? It meant that he stayed with his sheep and was ready to gently redirect their steps. It meant that when they stumbled he would pick them up and get them back with the rest of the flock. For particularly vulnerable sheep he would keep them in his bosom. Does the rod of discipline sound harsh now? Does imitating God's example when disciplining our children mean that we must beat sin out of them?

 

 

Does God beat the sin out of us? Thank heavens - NO! He lets us suffer the consequences for our sins. A lot of time, the sin is punishment in itself. I don't envision God standing there watching what I'm doing just waiting to smack me one. But when I'm off the path of his direction, I certainly get smacked around. Not by God, but by my decisions. Children don't get the idea that if you do X then Y will happen - until we teach them. Discipline has such a harsh connotation when that it isn't harsh at all. It is teaching and guiding.

 

Now, do I spank my son when he is repeatedly behaving in a way that is unsafe and inappropriate? Yes, when he looks at me and smiles and smacks his sister upside the head, he is punished. That is the consequence of his defiance and disobedience.

 

However, when he is crying because he wants that candy, I will try to distract him with something else. How about a toy, or an apple, or lets read a book. He isn't being disobedient in that case, he's behaving exactly like any normal child. If I gave him the candy once, then smacked him the next time he asked for it, I would be at fault and his behavior would be a direct result of MY failure. And I would get to deal with the consquences of my behavior - a screaming child. And I would deserve it.

[Alice]

Feeling a bit of trepidation about entering this conversation. I think BOTH stances (children are sinners or children's behaviour is not sin but just developmentally appropriate) can be taken to an extreme and used incorrectly. IMO, it would be absolutely wrong to spank a baby for crying, regardless of if you view that behavior as sin. And I do know of many parenting books and programs that use this children as sinners viewpoint to promot what I think is dangerous and inappropriate disciplinary practices.

 

But...I also think the develpmental approach can go to far....is it developmentally appropriate for a teenager to rebel against their parents and try cigarettes or alcohol or other drugs? Absolutely. Is it a behaviour that should be disciplined. You betcha. I have also seen people take the approach of "oh, they are just acting like kids are supposed to" to far and have kids who are completely out of control. I'm not saying at all that the OP or others on this thread are suggesting that...I know the OP has a positive parenting website and is suggesting discipline. My point is just that almost any viewpoint can be taken to an extreme and used in a way that is wrong. That doesn't make the originial viewpoint wrong.

 

I do believe that we are all sinners from birth. Our parenting philosophy is along the attachment parenting lines. We don't spank.

 

From a parenting perspective, I think we all have to make judgements all the time about our kids behaviour and the intentions behind it. The other day my 2 yr old bit my 4 yr old. It wasn't in anger, he just leaned over and bit him. Is this developmentally appropriate...yes, I think so. I think he was just curious what would happen and also wanted his attention. Did I discipline him...yes, I put him in time out briefly after firmly telling him "No biting." Is it sin? I don't know. But it is behaviour that needs to be stopped. My 2 yr old will have typical tantrums when told "no". Is that developmentally appropriate? Of course? Is it sin? I think so...it stems from a desire to have control, to disobey authority. Do I discipline him? Yes.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I do understand where the OP is coming from...that the children are sinners view has a lot of room for abuse. But I don't think that it has to dictate that I respond to my kids in a guilt-inducing or abusive or negative way. Most of the time, I find that having the view that we are all sinners is helpful with my kids. When I mess up and do something wrong, I ask my son for forgiveness. I tell him that often I do things I know are wrong and that I ask God for forgiveness. We talk about what the prayer of confession means at church and why we take communion and why Jesus came to Earth. My almost 5 yr old often does things he knows are wrong and I talk to him about those things being sin. He understands that very well. Without an understanding of sin, learning about Jesus and his death and resurrection would be meaningless, IMO.

[Scarlett]

IME, catagorizing the behavior of babies, toddlers and preschoolers as "sin" sets up a tone and dynamic that leads down an unnecessary and *extra*Biblical road.

 

Babies cry. Babies want attention, to be held, to be rocked, to be talked to, to take your glasses off your face, to crawl instead of have their diaper changed.

 

IMO...Scripture does indicate that all of us are born as sinners due to the fact that we inherited sin from Adam. That in no way means, to me, that an infant and small child's behavior--normal or not-- should be punished as sin. If anyone got that from anything I said, I apologize.

 

I think you take exception to using the word sin and children/babies together. If indeed that leads to humans misusing that concept to deal harshly with infants and children then that is a shame.

 

And of course that is where this whole discussion went off into a huge theological thing, but I did not see anyone in that other thread advocating dealing harshly with infants and children--regardless of how the child's behavior was characterized.

 

I at times deal harshly with my ds8...but that is because *I* sin...not because I believe I am following Bible commands to discipline my son.

 

I do stand by by belief that sin comes naturally to children and that we shouldn't be surprised by it, but rather just be prepared to deal with it. I do agree that goodness also comes naturally, but THAT is not something we have to fight against.

[Joanne]

I agree that a lot of what gets punished is simply age appropriate behaviour. But I think it is foolish to think young children should not be punished, only chastised etc for some behaviours. I am thinking of my own personal struggle with my oldest son. As a toddler/preschooler he was terrible to deal with, on top of age appropriate behaviours, he set fires, smeared feces everywhere daily, put a knife to his sister's throat, tried to kill our kitten, intentionally broke almost everything int he house, ran away constantly, you get the idea. Yes he had other issues, but safety is paramount and just talking to him, time outs etc do not keep the family and him safe, punishment had to be given.

 

Um. Your example is extreme and not relevant to the normal range of expected behaviors in young children.

 

It also shows in incomplete understanding of the *discipline* present in people who discipline but don't use arbitrary, unrelated punishment.

[Joanne]

An imperfect toddler will go back to the stove again and again even after they know it is wrong. A toddler knows something is wrong once they understand the word NO and their parents have applied this word to the action. A perfect toddler might want to play with the stove but it should happen only once because they will have the impulse control and memory of a perfect person.

 

Cognitive understanding of the word "no" does not mean the child is developmentally able to consistently apply impulse control. Children grow into impulse control.

 

It takes a lifetime. How many of us:

 

Have had one too many candy bars?

Have been addicted to soda, cigarrettes, watching Law and Order?

 

We struggle with impulse control at any age. I certainly expect a *toddler* to understand what I mean by "no" and still try anyway. You can punish them (time out, spank, no tv or whatever). Some will learn right away to not touch the stove. Some won't. You can *not* punish them and simply move them with a stern "No! Hot! Dangerous!" and some will learn right away and some won't.

 

It's not a matter of heart, sin or perfection. It's a matter of being a toddler.

[Lovedtodeath]

Feeling a bit of trepidation about entering this conversation. I think BOTH stances (children are sinners or children's behaviour is not sin but just developmentally appropriate) can be taken to an extreme and used incorrectly.

 

:iagree:with this and I also really enjoyed the remainder of the post. Thank you!

[Lovedtodeath]

Um, nevermind.... I need more impulse control. :lol:

[beansprouts]

Um, nevermind.... I need more impulse control. :lol:

 

Do you need a time out, my Dear??? :D

[tibbyl]

.

Edited October 30, 2008 by tibbyl

[Audrey]

Since the "Are babies sinners" thread has morphed into a theological and spiritual debate, elements of the original discussion that are important to me have been lost.

 

IME, catagorizing the behavior of babies, toddlers and preschoolers as "sin" sets up a tone and dynamic that leads down an unnecessary and *extra*Biblical road.

 

Babies cry. Babies want attention, to be held, to be rocked, to be talked to, to take your glasses off your face, to crawl instead of have their diaper changed.

 

Toddlers want candy, cookies, cake and TV. Sometimes they will even scream if they don't get them. Toddlers don't want you to teach algebra to your 13 year old.

 

Preschoolers would rather run to the car than walk slowly and safely in the parking lot. They will take a toy to play with, even if that means taking when another child is playing with it.

 

These are developmentally expected behaviors. Most of them should be responded to with *discipline* that matches the age/maturity of the child. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

But here's the truth. We aren't our child's Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit isn't talking to them during the above and above type moments because they are not sinning. They are being children.

 

We can't punish them into another developmental stage. We can't punish them into keeping themselves safe (ie: spank them for running into the street and then put them on the curb and walk away). We can't punish them into maturity. Often, discipine and punishment is what parents do in the space between the action and when the child moves on to another stage.

 

For over 10 years, I've worked with moms/families who have evaluated children's behavior through the paradigm of "sin" and that they are Biblically bound to correct it. We *are* instructed to discipline, admonish, and chastise. We are told to train them in the way they should go (caveat, it also says when they are OLD they will not depart from it).

 

Babies don't sin; toddlers don't sin; preschoolers don't sin. They need our loving, patient, nearly constant help, affection and care. They need us to see their behavior as it is: moving through the God designed stages to learn, explore and develop.

 

My kids are 13.5, nearly 12 and nearly 10. Have *they* sinned? Absolutely.

 

I hate the quote (I've seen it and heard it from several different places including the original thread) that we don't have to teach children bad behavior = they are born sinners. Some, as in the original thread add on "but we have to teach them good behavior". Actually, my kids have engaged in both good and not appropriate behavior naturally and intuitively.

 

 

I know you are a Christian, Joanne, and while I may not share your beliefs, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment here.

 

Truly and sincerely, I cannot tell you how encouraging it is to read this post.

[Rosie_0801]

I'm sorry; I've been through that whole thread, more than once, and I guess I missed where someone advocated punishing a baby for crying. I think someone ASSUMED that was being said, and I addressed that myself in the thread, but I never saw anyone actually state that it's perfectly OK to punish an infant for crying.

 

 

I didn't read that whole thread, but if you wasted as much time as I do on Yahoo Answers, you'd soon find people who do this. Urgh. I left my daughter with my father for 20 mins when she was a baby and came back to find her in her little chair yelling her head off and him standing there staring at her. To me, that's punishing a baby for crying. Apparently he picked her up, she didn't stop, so he put her back down again. She had to get used to me being somewhere else, and her not getting picked up when she wanted it. Very important lessons for a six month old to learn.

Whether you believe in the concept of sin or not, it's pretty dumb to punish kids for being at their stage of maturitiy and not further along. (Which is not to say that I don't do that occasionally, but I know I'm being dumb!) It seems so many people view childhood and adolescence as a nasty habit to be cured, when they are just stages of life to be worked through.

 

Rosie

[tibbyl]

Rosie, I've witnessed the very behavior you describe reading about on yahoo answers. Unfortunately, it was happening among a group of homeschool mothers and kids at a play day. One of them used a mini riding crop to hit a whiny tot. Others were so impressed with its use as discipline tool that they ordered the crops for themselves. Another favored tool among the group was wooden spoons used to hit whiny tots. I don't know about other parts of country, but it is fairly common in South for parents to spank infants and young tots. My daughter states that numerous kids in her high school have said that they still receive spankings.

Edited October 31, 2008 by tibbyl

[tibbyl]

Joanne, like Audrey, I do not share your religious beliefs, but I am grateful for your thread and for the parenting skills that you teach.

Edited October 31, 2008 by tibbyl
omitted words

[Lovedtodeath]

I was searching on yahoo groups and there is a group that believes that all members of the family should be disciplined by the father administering spankings. Older teens and wife included! I was apalled at the number of members!

[Scarlett]

I don't know about other parts of country, but it is fairly common in South for parents to spank infants and young tots. My daughter states that numerous kids in her high school have said that they still receive spankings.

 

I've been in the south for most of my life...the last 35 years....and your above comments have not been my experience at all. I'm sure it happens...but I don't know about it and I certainly would not describe it as common.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Well, I have been in the south all my life and have found it VERY common for people to start swatting infants' hands, legs and diapers. I know very few people who would consider that odd. Almost every toddler I've ever met has been spanked (often very regularly <sigh>). And it's common for people to discuss still being "spanked" as preteens and teens. A couple months ago, someone told my son, "I'm sure you don't like to be spanked, but..." as if my son would still get spankings even if I DID believe in spankings for any age. UGH. In fact, just this week, a lady told me that she "spanked" (with a belt) her son AFTER he was MARRIED! I tried to hide how appalled I was, but I don't think I was completely successful.

[beansprouts]

:glare:

[OnTheBrink]

I didn't read that whole thread, but if you wasted as much time as I do on Yahoo Answers, you'd soon find people who do this. Urgh. I left my daughter with my father for 20 mins when she was a baby and came back to find her in her little chair yelling her head off and him standing there staring at her. To me, that's punishing a baby for crying. Apparently he picked her up, she didn't stop, so he put her back down again. She had to get used to me being somewhere else, and her not getting picked up when she wanted it. Very important lessons for a six month old to learn.

Whether you believe in the concept of sin or not, it's pretty dumb to punish kids for being at their stage of maturitiy and not further along. (Which is not to say that I don't do that occasionally, but I know I'm being dumb!) It seems so many people view childhood and adolescence as a nasty habit to be cured, when they are just stages of life to be worked through.

 

Rosie

 

Rosie, I'm not saying it's NEVER done, but I didn't see anyone in that thread advocate it. People abuse children for a myriad of excuses. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that majority of Christians who believe people are born with sin natures do NOT abuse their children and use that as the excuse.

[tibbyl]

I've been in the south for most of my life...the last 35 years....and your above comments have not been my experience at all. I'm sure it happens...but I don't know about it and I certainly would not describe it as common.

 

While I have no sources to cite for in-home spanking by parents broken out by geographic region, one can look at which states still allow school corporal punishment to guage attitude toward cp.

 

Twenty two states still allow paddling of children with wooden paddle in schools. Majority of these states are in South and Midwest. The states where it is used most frequently (TX, MS, TN, AR) are all in South.

[Audrey]

I was searching on yahoo groups and there is a group that believes that all members of the family should be disciplined by the father administering spankings. Older teens and wife included! I was apalled at the number of members!

 

 

I believe that may not have been an actual parenting group... most likely it is a thinly veiled description of a group for fetishists. You have be careful about searching those groups. Many are not what they seem.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Audrey

[Greta]

In fact, just this week, a lady told me that she "spanked" (with a belt) her son AFTER he was MARRIED!

 

I thought my parents crossed a line by still spanking me when I was 12/13. But THAT is just . . . well, I can't even find the words. My heart goes out to that poor young man.

[tibbyl]

:glare:

 

:confused:

[Lovedtodeath]

hmmm... maybe we are too off-topic? Or she agrees that it is disgusting and is glaring at the idea of it? I don't know why, but I had to take a guess.

[beansprouts]

hmmm... maybe we are too off-topic? Or she agrees that it is disgusting and is glaring at the idea of it? I don't know why, but I had to take a guess.

 

What???

 

You are all such suspicious people today! :lol:

 

Okay, what happened was I posted something, then decided it sounded too stupid so I deleted it. The glare was for the riding crop users. :glare:

[nmoira]

 

Rosie, I'm not saying it's NEVER done, but I didn't see anyone in that thread advocate it. People abuse children for a myriad of excuses. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that majority of Christians who believe people are born with sin natures do NOT abuse their children and use that as the excuse.

I agree in that I don't think the majority do this, but it is done. One of the longer threads here is a discussion about the Pearls. Since pretty much everything that can be said about them has already been discussed in that thread, I'm refraining from making any further comment about them.

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you Moira! I saw the Pearls mentioned somewhere else and know nothing, though something vague about being harsh was mentioned. So I am glad for the information. A horrible book that I read while pregnant was by the Ezzos. Those poor babies!

[cathmom]

I haven't read the other thread, but wanted comment. I completely agree that babies, toddlers and preschoolers do not sin. Yes, they do wrong things, but it is not sin. They are not responsible IMO until the age of reason (around 7 for most children).

 

A friend of mine who has a similar parenting philosophy to me told me a story once. Two of our friends who were very into training children were visiting her. They all had 2 year olds. Our friends were constantly correcting and training theirs, while my friend was not. But the behavior of all 3 dc was the same! They were all just being 2 yos.

 

When one of my sons was 2 or 3, he loved apples. He would constantly go to the fridge and take an apple. He would eat a whole bag in a day. I have been on enough message boards and around enough people who believe in training that I should have trained this out of him. But actually it was easier to just put the apples somewhere else until he got a bit older and could understand what he was doing. He was not sinning by taking an apple!

[Joanne]

He was not sinning by taking an apple!

 

:D:lol:

 

The irony will have me giggling all day! Thank you!

[cathmom]

:D:lol:

 

The irony will have me giggling all day! Thank you!

 

Yes, I amused myself too!

[Gailmegan]

I don't think the problem is whether or not you believe a young child sins, but how you think sin should be handled. When people only take the sin part out of scripture and don't understand the grace of the gospel of Jesus for all sinners, then they are distorting the Word of God and can end up abusing their children, as demonstrated in teachings like those of the Pearls, Ezzos, Tedd Tripp, etc.

 

The scripture is clear that it is up to God, the only one who is righteous, to punish sin. And thankfully he sent Jesus to take on that punishment, so those who trust in him will be spared punishment. The job of the parent is to love, to teach and to train (at appropriate times). So whether a 1 yo throwing a tantrum on the floor is doing it out of a sinful heart or age-appropriate frustation, the parent following scripture would handle it the same way; the parent wouldn't punish the child, no matter the motive. The parent would use age-appropriate methods of encouraging, teaching and equipping my child to handle life's struggles while relying on and teaching about the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

 

Why would any parent feel the need to punish a child for sin when we don't punish an adult for sin. If my husband comes home grumpy from work and yells at all of us I don't take him into another room and spank him. I remind him that I love him, I affirm that he had a rough day and I suggest that he take some time to pray and then apologize to the kids for his outburst.

 

The problem isn't the label of "sin", the problem is a lack of understanding the scriptures, particularly God's grace for sinners.

 

If my point doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification - I have been interrrupted 12 times while writing this and don't even know what I'm typing. LOL.

[Scarlett]

I don't think the problem is whether or not you believe a young child sins, but how you think sin should be handled. When people only take the sin part out of scripture and don't understand the grace of the gospel of Jesus for all sinners, then they are distorting the Word of God and can end up abusing their children, as demonstrated in teachings like those of the Pearls, Ezzos, Tedd Tripp, etc.

 

The scripture is clear that it is up to God, the only one who is righteous, to punish sin. And thankfully he sent Jesus to take on that punishment, so those who trust in him will be spared punishment. The job of the parent is to love, to teach and to train (at appropriate times). So whether a 1 yo throwing a tantrum on the floor is doing it out of a sinful heart or age-appropriate frustation, the parent following scripture would handle it the same way; the parent wouldn't punish the child, no matter the motive. The parent would use age-appropriate methods of encouraging, teaching and equipping my child to handle life's struggles while relying on and teaching about the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

 

Why would any parent feel the need to punish a child for sin when we don't punish an adult for sin. If my husband comes home grumpy from work and yells at all of us I don't take him into another room and spank him. I remind him that I love him, I affirm that he had a rough day and I suggest that he take some time to pray and then apologize to the kids for his outburst.

 

The problem isn't the label of "sin", the problem is a lack of understanding the scriptures, particularly God's grace for sinners.

 

If my point doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification - I have been interrrupted 12 times while writing this and don't even know what I'm typing. LOL.

 

Makes perfect sense to me...And ITA. :)

[SonshineLearner]

There are so many different parenting styles and choices that we make as parents. It's kinda sad to me that we judge each other harshly if we disagree.

 

For Christians, I believe that one day we realize we will know the truth and we will all be surprised about at least one idea we had on earth!

 

I don't believe (moderate) spanking is wrong, I nurse my children for a really long time, I wore my babies in slings/ Ergos for years (until 3-4 years old), I let my babies/ young children sleep with us, I didn't circ my son:-) I never gave him formula, don't have them pumped with vaccines... I like wooden toys when I can get them for my children, I believe in "home-learning"

 

I've talked to shepherds and sometimes acting as a " shepherd" doesn't mean just carrying the sick, you can give a slight "swat" to a stubborn one. (but sometimes they just need "led") Usually there's something I think I do better than others.... That doesn't mean I am!

 

I like reading Love and Logic and also Gentle Parenting sites and books, and then, I also like reading all the books here that I read about here. I enjoyed the Pearl's Book, ok, the Ezzo's I'm sure I agreed with much, I like the Tripp's book and then the next one about Instructing Your Child's Heart.

 

The Pearl's magazine has really sweet things in it! Like, when their daughter (married with children) does her housework, she involves her little ones in "real" work by modeling behaviour...cheerfully! They sweep and do dishes together...etc. Imagine, the way she said it, it sounded like Charlotte Mason/ Waldorf etc....

 

I think sometimes we just start shooting before we realize that in the midst of some things we don't agree about, that they must be "child" abusers.

 

I love taking the good and leaving the rest!

 

Carrie:-)

[Audrey]

Thank you Moira! I saw the Pearls mentioned somewhere else and know nothing, though something vague about being harsh was mentioned. So I am glad for the information. A horrible book that I read while pregnant was by the Ezzos. Those poor babies!

 

The Pearls employ similar methods. A simple google search for them will give you lots of info. Like Moira, I'll just leave it at that.

[Gailmegan]

Carrie - I'm not sure if you were accusing me of judging others harshly with regards to parenting styles, but since you went on to discuss Pearls, Ezzos and Tripp then claimed that some are so quick to shoot and call others "child abusers" I felt that at least part of this must be directed at me.

 

Let me tell you that my reference to these three as promoting practices that are abusive is not done lightly or without significant thought.

 

The American Academy of Pediatrics has warned against the Ezzo's teachings on feedings and scheduling for resulting in failure to thrive. For this information as well as other critiques of the Ezzo's program here are some links (ezzo.info is one of the best):

 

MORE THAN A PARENTING MINISTRY:

The Cultic Characteristics of Growing Families International

by Kathleen Terner and Elliot Miller

http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2721925/k.B464/DG233.htm

TulipGirl discussing Ezzo

http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/cat_gfi_ezzo_babywise.html

Ezzo.Info

http://www.ezzo.info

Voices of Experience

http://www.ezzo.info/voices.htm

Timeline of Ezzo Controversy 1966-2005

http://ezzo.info/Timeline/timeline1.htm

Babywise TriFold Brochure

http://ezzo.info/trifoldbrochure.pdf

Ezzo and Attachment Disorder

http://ezzo.info/Voices/attachment.htm

Rebecca Prewett’s Family Corner

http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/fam3.html

What is Babywise and Ezzo parenting?

http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-ppezzo&msg=4493.2

A Critique of GKGW ~ Dr. Kent McClain

http://ourworld.cs.com/kent1750/GKGW/complete.htm?f=fs

Ezzo Debate Board

http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppezzo

Aware Parent

http://www.awareparent.net

FreeFromEzzo Yahoo List

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FREEfromEZZO

Ezzo-Fied!

http://www.breastfeeding.com/advocacy/ezzo_fied.html

Case Studies of BW Moms

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/moodyfamily/casestudies.html

Gary Ezzo and Babywise

http://www.thisclassicallife.com/tclarchives/2005_03_01_index.php

 

And here are some links for information about the Pearls:

 

On the Pearls and Parenting

http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000636.html

Pearls Po-Russki

http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000643.html

Biblical Relationships or Behaviourism

http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000735.html

Children, Good and Grown

http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000872.html

Why Not Train a Child?

http://hermanalinda.witnesstoday.org/notrain.htm

To Train Up A Child

http://www.kjsl.com/~lindav/Wendy.htm

More News On Sean Paddock

http://myonelongday.blog-city.com/more_news_on_sean_paddock.htm

On Perfectionism and the Pearls

http://holyexperience.blogspot.com/2006/04/perfectionism.html

The Pearls: The Basics

http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/09/michael-and-debi-pearls-no-greater-joy_30.html

On Original Sin

http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/10/michael-pearl-on-original-sin-analysis_11.html

To Train Up A Child Review

http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/07/review-to-train-up-child-by-michael.html

TTUAC: One Family’s Experiences

http://ourhomeschool.blog-city.com/the_pearls_are_wrong.htm

Another Family’s Experience

http://www.xanga.com/nutmeggmama/458714379/item.html

Chapter-by-Chapter Review of TTUAC

http://skylane.kjsl.com/%7Elindav/Wendy.htm

 

*All the links above I found at www.parentingfreedom.com Thank you to Carol who runs that site and put all of these in one place. It had been a long time since I have interracted with any of this material, so I figured these links would explain the very real concerns much better than I.

 

However, I recently wrote a critique of Tripp's Shepherding a Child's Heart for my church, so the very serious concerns with his teaching are (unfortunately) all too easily accessible in my brain. I will spare you the entire essay I wrote, but I will state that spanking an infant for wiggling on the changing table (p 154) and the insistance upon repeated spankings for older children "until they are sweet enough" (p152) not only contradict Tripp's basic premise that heart change is what is needed, but do in fact promote child abuse. He even talks about how it's okay to cause bruising on the buttocks and to hide it from your pediatrician and others if you don't think they will understand (p 114).

So please do not assume that I throw around words like "abuse" lightly.

 

Carrie, if you are in fact able to wade through the dangerous teachings of these individuals and only glean what is good, that is fantastic. But for most people the underlying presuppositions that colors even the good stuff is very hard to avoid. I personally don't understand why someone would want to wade through the ickiness to find one or two grains of truth when there are fantastic, solid biblical resources available, such as: Clarksen, Kimmel, VanVonderan, and Turansky and Miller, just to name a few.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Gailmegan
adding page #'s for Tripp comments

[Tea Time]

I've not visited these boards in a long time, and I really should be doing other stuff, but I saw this thread and it caught my eye because we have been converting old video to DVD and saw the funniest thing recently related to this thread.

 

Do babies and toddlers "sin"? Well, the word is so loaded! I haven't read all of this thread. Have no intention since I know how these discussions go, but you can use this little tid-bit as fodder if you want. It is just cute and funny to me, and I am so grateful to a gracious and loving God that let my poor clueless hubby and I raise children that are the most awesome teens today! We did it! Hooray!

 

This happened when my dd was 4 and ds was 2. The video was on a tripod just rolling while the kids played in the living room and my hubby was finishing dinner on the sideline. I was doing dishes in the kitchen. Dd is playing grocery store - putting out all her toy foods on the furniture. Ds is making baskets with the foods in the shopping cart for a bit, but gets board of that. All is well; everyone is happy. Humm... boring! Ds goes over to a recliner where food is carefully laid out for "sale" by dd. You can see him watching her. He takes a piece of food and very slowly lifts it waiting for her to see. She doesn't, so he slowly puts it back still watching her and waits for her to look. Finally she sees him taking it. She hollers at me, "Bobby took something... he took an egg!" I can't see what is going on, but I assume she is being a bit selfish (and maybe she is), so I tell her not to worry about it, he will give it back. She takes this well and goes on about her business. Boring. Dh just watches. Ds thinks a bit then shoves all the food off the chair! Very obviously to get a rise out of his sister! She whines with discouragement.

 

Time for dh to intervene. He calls ds over and gives him a "talking to." "That was not very nice, was it?" Ds shakes his head, "no." "What do you think I should do about that?" Shrug. Off to time out with ds.

 

So ends my ds's shoplifting career and my dd's desire to manage a grocery store!

 

Our family has viewed this a bunch and discussed it a lot. Ds at the age of 2 obviously and clearly intended to provoke and irritate his sibling. No one argues with that when they see this video. He knew what he was doing, and he probably also knew it might not end well. He did it anyway. Why? Ds took the time out without a fuss, but what should we have done if he had thrown a tantrum instead? What happens in the mind of a child when they get away with behavior that is like this? Once? Many times? Do some parents feel so confident that a child is incapable of doing something that is "wrong" that they might allow this kind of thing to continue? How does a child feel about the world if they begin to understand that their bad behavior is always met with a firm consequence? What about if it is always met with indifference or ignored? What about the child that is slighted? Might they have brought on the behavior with some of their own behavior? Does that make it right? What do they learn when the other child's behavior is corrected or punished? (Are those two words the same thing? Can they be? How are we, as adults, influenced by terms like correction, punishment, right/wrong, sin, compassion, fairness, justice etc.) What do they learn if it is ignored?

 

This is the kind of discussion our teens had with us when we viewed this incident. Cool. Interesting.

 

We had a couple other videos that are also interesting and funny. They are so sweet and precious that it nearly breaks my heart with tenderness to see them! I didn't deserve such incredible blessings from God - I was so unprepared, so oblivious to the responsibility! I remember this whenever I see a parent struggle with these things. I remember how hard it is to know what to do. I try not to judge. Who can know except God the intentions of the child, of the parent? Other mitigating circumstances.

 

I am just grateful we are a family.

 

Most of you are still up to your ears with all of this! You have my prayers (those of you that want them), and my best wishes (those of you who want those instead), and my great hope that homeschooling continues to thrive in this country!

[tibbyl]

... However, I recently wrote a critique of Tripp's Shepherding a Child's Heart for my church, so the very serious concerns with his teaching are (unfortunately) all too easily accessible in my brain. I will spare you the entire essay I wrote, but I will state that spanking an infant for wiggling on the changing table and the insistance upon repeated spankings for older children "until they are sweet enough" not only contradict Tripp's basic premise that heart change is what is needed, but do in fact promote child abuse. He even talks about how it's okay to cause bruising on the buttocks and to hide it from your pediatrician if you don't think he/she will understand. I don't have the page numbers off the top of my head, but I will find them if you want them. ...

 

Gailmegan, here is link to Stop the Rod's section on Tripp's "Sherperding a Child's Heart." It has the page numbers and quotes that I think you were looking for. By the way, Borders allegedly refuses to stock "Sheperding a Child's Heart."

 

http://www.stoptherod.net/tripp.html

 

Obviously, Stop the Rod is greatly biased in favor of gentle nonpunitive parenting.