College and wealth

[BlsdMama]

100% agreed. It burns me up that 40% of high schools in the U.S. have more cops than guidance counselors.

 

 

 

And you know, this is an excellent point.

 

Because, the deadlines for applications and scholarships come very early.  My gosh, *I* missed a deadline for DS and had to appeal and I have already been through this routine once before.  I cannot FATHOM the average parent who has or hasn't been to a four year university being able to navigate everything from applications, scholarships, and FAFSA in order to make sure their kid gets enough $$ to be able to attend.

 

And most of these kids have parents who assume the school will handle this stuff but, let's face it, the school, even assuming they have a great counselor, really doesn't have a vested interest.  My parents (one with a high school diploma and a couple community college classes and the other without a h.s. diploma) had zero idea how to help me with financial aid and college applications.  None.  Then you fast forward one generation and there are a lot of qualified kids who do not know what is out there for financial aid or how to research and pursue it.  And, the flip side of that is that there are a lot of kids in a university just because mom and dad do know how to navigate but they will not graduate and probably should have headed for a tech career.  That's something to think on too.

[BlsdMama]

I have a hard time believing that working-class kids who are very bright don't have a clue where to turn if they have a desire to continue their education.

 

I mean, they are required by law to spend 5 days a week in a building full of college-educated people, interacting with said college-educated people on a frequent basis.  They can read and write and know how to use the internet and the phone.

 

Working-class kids, of all people, know that the way to get ahead is to work at it.  If they want it they will make the effort.  So the question, to me, is why don't they want it badly enough?  What messages are they hearing and what examples are they seeing that discourage them from going to college?

 

Believe it.  It isn't that they can't get some type of education.  The article is more about, "Hey, Kid 234 is really bright.  He is just as bright as 567.  He *should* be at Highly Selective College and instead he is at Not Selective CC.  Now, I am all for community colleges, gee whiz, I just got my AA at one.  (Yup, that's right, college dropout right here.)  The point is when Junior is limited by his income/family/life placement, it will not cross his mind that maybe he belongs at HS College instead of NSCC.  

 

Now, if Junior had been born elsewhere he would have been raised with the mindset of, "Of COURSE you are headed to HSC.  Where else would you go?  Of COURSE you are getting your Masters.  What else would you do?"  It's justtotally different.

 

Keeping in mind that loan limits are limited now, they cannot just borrow any sum.  Let's take our scenario for instance.  "Helping" with tuition really isn't an option currently.  As DS isn't the tippy top of the pyramid, we knew he was likely to get a great scholarship at our flagship state school and very likely to get a solid scholarship from most selective private schools.  But when his scholarships at state school will cover room, board, tuition, and books, leaving approximately $3,100 AFTER his $5500 in loans is maxed, and we know that private school is likely to leave a $20k balance - well, where is there a choice?  He can only earn so much over the summer.  Is he qualified at more prestigious schools? Yes, absolutely.  Could he pay for them?  Nope.  Not at all.  His "gap" between scholarships, loans, and grants is $3,100.  Now THAT he can earn in each summer between classes.

 

Being bright and academic alone does not cover the bills.

 

 

 

Sorry I'm late to this party; this is a very timely thread for me, as I just finished reading Hillbilly Elegy, which is a memoire featuring exactly this question. The author, J.D. vance, talks about certain experiences attending Yale Law School, after having been born amongst the white working-class poor of Appalachia ("hillbillies").

 

I grew up poor myself and this part of the book really resonated with me. The problem goes far beyond whether high schools have good guidance counselors or not; it goes far beyond whether good colleges bother to bottom-fish or not. There were so, so many things I didn't know about how to improve one's economic outlook. So many things I didn't know about how one would go to college, or what to do if one even got there. Additionally, in my family culture, "girls" did not need college. My parents didn't walk around saying, "You cannot go to college," but they never uttered a peep that indicated that we could or should look into it. All I knew was that college was some very expensive thing that we could not afford (I had no idea there were things like Pell grants, which I surely would have qualified for.) Forgive how this next sentence is about to sound, but I didn't even realize that I was a pretty smart young lady with a very good mind for academics. I was in my late twenties, taking a class on photography, before I realized that learning new information was comparitively easy for me.

 

There were so very many things I did not know about money. My parents avoid discussing money. They gave me no guidance whatsoever, beyond having observed my mother's frugal ways. I didn't know much about appropriate dress for work or proper conduct. Once, I asked to leave work early to get my hair cut. Nobody taught me those unspoken class rules and I generally discovered them only by stumbling over them.

 

A large part of why socio-economic class remains consistent through generations is because of all these hidden factors. If your parents modeled to you How to Be a Hillbilly, you aren't learning How to Be a Prep School Kid. You pick up the social behaviors of clothing, hair, speech patterns, diet of the people you are around. It isn't easy to climb into a different level based partly on that. I remember how a lawyer I worked for would go out to lunch and would order some dish not on the menu. He would say, "You have to have their Hunan Shrimp" or whatever and I was looking at the menu, going, "Where?" I had no idea it was possible to order meals not on the menu and I also would never have attempted it because I would have to ask the price. To him, this was just the most normal behavior because he grew up upper class. those differences are difficult to bridge even if one has certain advantages like a high IQ or has the "right" appearance and all their teeth.

 

Teeth, BTW, are a major marker of class in the US. Skin is also. Wealthier people do not let their kids go forth into the world with messed-up teeth and acne-covered faces.

 

This is all very true.

 

Quill-you stated pretty much my experience. I ended up at a state school pretty much by accident and discovered I wasn't dumb. My high schoolers attend a small rural public school. Of my dd's grad class of 60 maybe 20 plan some college or community college. It just isn't valued. Many of these kids plan to inherit or work on the family farm. Period. That's not bad but it is a mindset that sees college as a waste. My dd also has several friends whose parents refuse to help pay for education. No help with loans, nada. An 18 yo kid with no support and being pretty much asked to "leave the nest" sooner rather than later is thinking survival not education.

 

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You know, some of this is currently a variance.  My parents farm. Dad retired from a company that made tractors as well.  My grandfathers both worked and farmed.  My dad always told me to go to college and get an education.  It was important to him because he did not love working in a factory and he had seen a lot of fluctuation in the farming economy.  But, you take current farmers in the Midwest?  Young men? They've only known success at farming.  My brother thinks college is *the* single biggest waste of money and time that exists.  Now, he is only able to get into farming because my dad owns land but he doesn't grasp that.  So, you see, men who have been successful at what they do and do not have education think that college has no worth.  But men who have struggled can see the value.  Does that make sense?  Truly, right now inheriting a family farm in Iowa is inheriting $1,000,000 plus when you figure the value of land per acre.  Most of my parents' generation did not have college experience.  But here's the thing - you can no longer just mosey into farming because you would have to buy the land.  So I just don't see farmers undervaluing education currently here... Unless of course they are the only son of a farmer and they know it's coming to them.  KWIM?

 

But I will tell you - I suspect my niece and nephews will never hear that education has value at home.  And there are a lot like them. It is a shame because it does permeate their thoughts about their own education and the value of it from the time they are very little.

[Guest]

You apparently know a completely different subset of academically capable, but lower economic class folks than I do. Those I know live paycheck to paycheck worrying about how they are going to pay for any extra expense like new tires or health issues - often going without. Their fridges can be empty at times. They can't quite remember the last time they went on vacation - or even a staycation. More than one job is common. They want something better but aren't sure how to actually get there. Getting more education for themselves is tough because then they'd have to give up a job, not to mention dusting off academic neurons. For their kids... it can be different and I encourage this when I can.

In some ways, yes, but I agree with SKL in one way, too, because many, MANY lower economic people have a bitter contempt towards wealthy people. It may be true that they don't know how to do better, but they may still act like they wouldn't want to be rich. In fact, this can be an obstacle for the kid who tries to rise above that: he is "too big for his britches," "forgetting his roots," "all high and mighty now," etc. Even my own mother seemed to have a lot of bitterness towards me when my house was much nicer than the home I came from. She would say unkind things about how much of a pain it would be to clean and she made remarks like, "must be nice to be able to put *mulch* around your trees." Yup, mom. It's nice.

[StephanieZ]

What is this "simple life" of which you speak?

 

I observe that my friends with college degrees and middle class incomes lead much simpler and lower stress lives than those who have to worry how to pay for an unexpected car repair or doctor's bill.

There is nothing "simple" about being poor.

 

Exactly. 

 

My friends who are "high income" (say, top 5%, not top 1%)  . . . many have a spouse (all women IME) who stays home, maybe homeschool or otherwise has lots of time to devote to their kids during and after school, takes long walks with friends during the day, cooks up nice meals with no thought to grocery costs, has plenty of time to vacation plan, college plan, financially plan . . . When someone is ill, money is no object in obtaining medical care. When basic needs come up like car repairs, or even a new car, or a new roof . . . solving the need is as simple as calling a couple contractors for bids, then writing a check. Big needs such as college or retirement require planning, of course, but we have the resources to meet those needs, get the help needed, and the personal time to devote to appropriate planning. These folks have reserves, they have emergency funds and tons of (cheap) credit available if needed unexpectedly. A few weeks (or months) off work between jobs is rare and if it occurs, is usually is covered by some sort of separation pay, and if not means maybe dipping a bit into investment/savings accounts, or worst case, dipping into retirement savings or maybe taking cash out of a house via a HELOC. They can easily catch up once they are re-employed.

 

My truly-poor (lowest quartile) friends and acquaintances . . . work many, many hours, often 60+ per week, struggle mightily to overcome the most basic obstacle such as a car repair, let alone manage more dire problems such a grandchild in need of rescue or an adult child in need of medical or legal care . . . VERY few of these truly poor people I know had health insurance before the expansion of Medicaid in our state, and even now, many still go without if they don't know how to work the system and/or just don't "get" the numbers/subsidies available. They do not utilize health care in the way that higher income people do, and they suffer mightily due to that lack. Many work in industries that do not offer health benefits or any other benefits. Vacations do not exist for them on any significant basis. A rare visit to distant (but very closely related, such as an elderly mother) family would be the only vacations that they've taken, ever, that I know of. These folks have zero savings, zero reserves, and almost no ability to manage a significant financial crisis. A few weeks off work between jobs means risking losing everything they have and generally puts them back YEARS in their financial progress as it can take years to catch up from getting behind on bills. 

 

If health care wasn't so insecure in our country, then there would be a lot more comfort to be found "in the middle", but (the vast majority of) poor folks suffer, period, IMHO. Once we finally join civilized nations in ensuring all our people have health care and education, then perhaps being in the 2nd quintile or third will be a reasonable comfortable option. But, IMHO, the insecurity of access to health care makes living in the bottom 1/2 to 2/3 of our economy incredibly frightening and stressful. I can't even fathom the stress I'd feel if were in that position, with a sick family member. 

[creekland]

In some ways, yes, but I agree with SKL in one way, too, because many, MANY lower economic people have a bitter contempt towards wealthy people. It may be true that they don't know how to do better, but they may still act like they wouldn't want to be rich. In fact, this can be an obstacle for the kid who tries to rise above that: he is "too big for his britches," "forgetting his roots," "all high and mighty now," etc. Even my own mother seemed to have a lot of bitterness towards me when my house was much nicer than the home I came from. She would say unkind things about how much of a pain it would be to clean and she made remarks like, "must be nice to be able to put *mulch* around your trees." Yup, mom. It's nice.

 

I know this attitude totally from some parents/relatives.  Where I don't see it is among capable kids.  They're open minded (usually) and want better than they have at home.  They may succumb to their parents, but they may not too if they know they have a choice.

 

There was a young gal in one of my long term classes who was incredibly interested in learning more about what we were studying.  I gave her the links to some videos she could watch at home.  Her dad came in, saw what she was watching, and went into a "What are you watching that crap for???"  She was heartbroken when she told me about it the next morning.  We had a short discussion about her life vs her parent's life.  She regained enthusiasm, but learned to be careful what she did at home.  She headed off to college after graduation.  ;)  I suspect she will do quite well once among peers.

 

But I'm sure she would have done the same even if I had just stuck with the program and not given her links or said anything else...  :glare: (ditto for the others encouraging her).

[Sneezyone]

In some ways, yes, but I agree with SKL in one way, too, because many, MANY lower economic people have a bitter contempt towards wealthy people. It may be true that they don't know how to do better, but they may still act like they wouldn't want to be rich. In fact, this can be an obstacle for the kid who tries to rise above that: he is "too big for his britches," "forgetting his roots," "all high and mighty now," etc. Even my own mother seemed to have a lot of bitterness towards me when my house was much nicer than the home I came from. She would say unkind things about how much of a pain it would be to clean and she made remarks like, "must be nice to be able to put *mulch* around your trees." Yup, mom. It's nice.

 

This is exactly what I was talking about. I seriously see it as a defense mechanism. They see the progress of a young person as an attack/assault on them, as a repudiation of themselves.

[FaithManor]

In some ways, yes, but I agree with SKL in one way, too, because many, MANY lower economic people have a bitter contempt towards wealthy people. It may be true that they don't know how to do better, but they may still act like they wouldn't want to be rich. In fact, this can be an obstacle for the kid who tries to rise above that: he is "too big for his britches," "forgetting his roots," "all high and mighty now," etc. Even my own mother seemed to have a lot of bitterness towards me when my house was much nicer than the home I came from. She would say unkind things about how much of a pain it would be to clean and she made remarks like, "must be nice to be able to put *mulch* around your trees." Yup, mom. It's nice.

I see this a bit. There is the concept of "high and mighty" or "better than us" and resentment here, and that is especially true if the young adult leaves the area to find better employment, and does not return except to visit. The parents have found a comfort zone and somehow it is damaging to their self esteem to have their kids try for something else. They don't see it as 'to each his own" or "yay for my kid, he found a job he really loves, or he doesn't have to worry about going to the doctor", it is an affront to them. Hard for me to wrap my brain around.

[Murphy101]

I see this a bit. There is the concept of "high and mighty" or "better than us" and resentment here, and that is especially true if the young adult leaves the area to find better employment, and does not return except to visit. The parents have found a comfort zone and somehow it is damaging to their self esteem to have their kids try for something else. They don't see it as 'to each his own" or "yay for my kid, he found a job he really loves, or he doesn't have to worry about going to the doctor", it is an affront to them. Hard for me to wrap my brain around.

It's hard for me too and I come from an entire family like that. One of many reasons I consider them toxic and have little contact with them.

[FaithManor]

It's hard for me too and I come from an entire family like that. One of many reasons I consider them toxic and have little contact with them.

I understand completely. The community at large in this area can be maddening enough without adding relatives who call you nuts and worse because your kids have career plans or educational goals. Grrrrr...

[Murphy101]

I understand completely. The community at large in this area can be maddening enough without adding relatives who call you nuts and worse because your kids have career plans or educational goals. Grrrrr...

I was told for years that I was uppity and thought I was too good for them and how they did things.

 

I used to feel hurt and insulted by that.

 

Now I agree with them. I think anyone should have a chance to be better than lives of abuse, addiction, selfishness, and ignorance.

[FaithManor]

I was told for years that I was uppity and thought I was too good for them and how they did things.

 

I used to feel hurt and insulted by that.

 

Now I agree with them. I think anyone should have a chance to be better than lives of abuse, addiction, selfishness, and ignorance.

Well said!

[Frances]

Well college, especially elite college, actually is not the answer to poverty in general. Many people in poverty would not qualify for college and would not be able to benefit from it even if it were free. The article was talking about people with strong academic aptitude to begin with, and also who had the drive to go to a better-than-average college (hence the studies comparing their results to others). Do we know for a fact that those capable individuals are unsuccessful in life if they don't go to college? Because that's not what I see. Actually some of them are doing very well (millionaire next door types) without a college degree. But mostly they apply their intelligence to wise planning and management and they are merely comfortable (qualitatively speaking) - which can also be said of many/most college grads. If they were not the type to be content in the life they've chosen, they would have chosen differently.

If you want to read about some brilliant real life kids who could most definitely have benefited from a free or minimal cost excellent college education, check out the book "Spare Parts" . It's about a robotics team from a very poor area in the southwest that won a national competition. Some of the kids were also undocumented. It broke my heart to read about so much wasted potential.

[Frances]

Yes, it's really true. Coming from such a background I can say it's really true.

 

The only reason I went to higher education was because I aspired to solve problems for other people. Not because I aspired to be "rich" and certainly not so I could live in a high COL area or work in a high-stress job.

 

There really is such a thing as being content with a simple life. Thank goodness.

From reading the "Who's going to tackle ..." threads, I think your job sounds higher stress than almost anyone I know personally except perhaps my brother who lacks a college degree, but works in a very high stress sales job. But he is also very motivated to earn money. Higher education, even at elite schools, does not necessarily equal being rich, living in a high COL area, and/ or working in a high stress job. When chosen correctly and combined with some luck, it often leads to more choices, options, and money and therefore less stress.

[FaithManor]

If you want to read about some brilliant real life kids who could most definitely have benefited from a free or minimal cost excellent college education, check out the book "Spare Parts" . It's about a robotics team from a very poor area in the southwest that won a national competition. Some of the kids were also undocumented. It broke my heart to read about so much wasted potential.

Thinking the same thing. Our 4H rocket team over the years has had kids who really needed and wanted college make it due to the scholarships offered because of their participation and the prize money from their high placements in the competition. Without that, it is doubtful if they would have made it because their prospects were that bleak. Minimal cost college education would be a boon to MANY a student.

[creekland]

Becoming Dr Q: My Journey from Migrant Farm Worker to Brain Surgeon is one of my favorite books of "uncovered" gems from "nowhere:"

 

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/becoming-dr-q-alfredo-quinones-hinojosa/1100083788

 

Interestingly enough, he had help along the way from folks who saw his potential and urged him on too.

 

[SKL]

Several of you have mentioned that you have known kids who have wanted and needed help to figure out higher education.  Presumably they let you know this and you helped / encouraged them to find resources.

 

So that is what I'm talking about.  They have people they can talk to who know more than they or their parents know.  So they talk and it gets done (if feasible).

 

I guess the complaint is that we haven't institutionalized this quite perfectly enough to ensure that no young person ever has questions to ask outside of the institutional structure.  Problem is, that isn't how things work.  Public institutions of any kind will always leave some people to fall through the cracks, if we leave it all up to them.  We can't have the mindset that it's not our responsibility to help because there's an institution being paid for that.  That would put us in the same category as some of the parents being criticized in the above posts.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I was told for years that I was uppity and thought I was too good for them and how they did things.

 

I used to feel hurt and insulted by that.

 

Now I agree with them. I think anyone should have a chance to be better than lives of abuse, addiction, selfishness, and ignorance.

Yes. That is what I mean by leaving=bad. I have taken a lot of "you're getting above your raising" comments. Within many families being different is not a path to praise. I'm not sure if it's about jealousy or conformity or group norms. I take quite a bit of guff for not working "with that degree and all". If you don't live in a certain type of small town, low income, family heavy environment the animosity leaving brings is hard to explain. At least that is my personal experience. If that is what you hear and see, or some variant of that, you're not spending time contemplating Harvard.

 

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[Sneezyone]

Several of you have mentioned that you have known kids who have wanted and needed help to figure out higher education.  Presumably they let you know this and you helped / encouraged them to find resources.

 

So that is what I'm talking about.  They have people they can talk to who know more than they or their parents know.  So they talk and it gets done (if feasible).

 

I guess the complaint is that we haven't institutionalized this quite perfectly enough to ensure that no young person ever has questions to ask outside of the institutional structure.  Problem is, that isn't how things work.  Public institutions of any kind will always leave some people to fall through the cracks, if we leave it all up to them.  We can't have the mindset that it's not our responsibility to help because there's an institution being paid for that.  That would put us in the same category as some of the parents being criticized in the above posts.

 

Sure, people can and should work within their immediate sphere of influence to improve awareness and assist kids where possible. That does not eliminate the need for more systemic efforts that work to expand the national talent pool and reach out tho. I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's either/or and, as many posts have indicated, many of us have gotten very involved personally. My primary beef is that folks continue to insist that under-served, highly qualified individuals do not exist or that they simply choose, en masse, to remain as they are. There's just no evidence of that.

[creekland]

Several of you have mentioned that you have known kids who have wanted and needed help to figure out higher education.  Presumably they let you know this and you helped / encouraged them to find resources.

 

No, they don't always ask.  Many times I am the one bringing up the subject - often getting rebuffed the first time or two (it's too expensive, I'm not that good, I have no idea how to do something like that, I'm thinking of just working at Wally World or construction, etc, I'm too scared to sign up for the SAT - what if it shows I'm stupid, etc).

 

Then there are times when the young lads or lasses look into it (with or without anyone's assistance) - even apply - but don't have the funds to actually go after they've been accepted.  Even state schools can be too expensive for lower income families.  Tippy top private schools generally offer the best need-based aid, but not everyone can get into them even with high stats.  

 

There are two major problems for lower income folks.  The first is lack of knowledge and/or belief that they can do it.  The second is being able to afford it.  There are only limited amounts of guaranteed loans - not enough to fund school in some states - esp if nothing is in commuting range (and even if there is, they still need to eat and someone has to pay the rent + electric, etc).

[JumpyTheFrog]

I read somewhere that low income students from anti-education families often do better living on campus, rather than close to family. It allows them to have study time instead of parents trying to insist they give up study time to babysit younger siblings or run errands.

[Guest]

I read somewhere that low income students from anti-education families often do better living on campus, rather than close to family. It allows them to have study time instead of parents trying to insist they give up study time to babysit younger siblings or run errands.

We will be encouraging our girls to do their studying in the library for just this reason. If they're home there is so much distraction and I'll be tempted to ask for their help, so even if they're living at home it's just not the best study environment.

[creekland]

I read somewhere that low income students from anti-education families often do better living on campus, rather than close to family. It allows them to have study time instead of parents trying to insist they give up study time to babysit younger siblings or run errands.

 

No stats to back it up, but my personal experience agrees that it's better for them to live among peers.  It's also nice when the schools keep similar students in the same dorms (doesn't have to be exclusive, but not "singled out").  It helps them to find a peer group instead of thinking they are the only student without much cash on hand.  Then it's nice when the freshmen RAs do their job and show their new charges the things they can take advantage of on campus (and/or in the city) that are free or low cost - from clubs/activities to tutoring, etc.  

[FaithManor]

No stats to back it up, but my personal experience agrees that it's better for them to live among peers.  It's also nice when the schools keep similar students in the same dorms (doesn't have to be exclusive, but not "singled out").  It helps them to find a peer group instead of thinking they are the only student without much cash on hand.  Then it's nice when the freshmen RAs do their job and show their new charges the things they can take advantage of on campus (and/or in the city) that are free or low cost - from clubs/activities to tutoring, etc.  

This has been true for my ds at WMU. He was housed in the "Science Scholars" dorm. Everyone was a science major (except engineering because they have their own dorm), and tutoring was provided in house. The downside was this was the dorm farthest away from the main campus, and when I say far, I mean a serious walk so not always fun in the winter.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

<snip>

 

A large part of why socio-economic class remains consistent through generations is because of all these hidden factors. If your parents modeled to you How to Be a Hillbilly, you aren't learning How to Be a Prep School Kid. You pick up the social behaviors of clothing, hair, speech patterns, diet of the people you are around. It isn't easy to climb into a different level based partly on that. <snip>

This, this, this.

 

My DS is at one of the schools listed in the top 10. He's keeping toe-to-toe academically but it's the little things that are hurting his experience. Things like not knowing that casual dress is khakis, a white oxford, and a blue blazer. Things like not having a base knowledge of travel and world experiences(Yes, he is well read but he doesn't have the experiences). It's not having the networking skills (like sealing the deal over a round of golf) or family connections. It's not being able to participate in discussions about summer houses, private planes, and trust funds. It's having to decline invitations to weekends away because $1500 isn't petty cash but something that needs to be budgeted and saved for. It's being the only one on the dorm floor with a work study job that is necessary for next month's spending money. 

 

While we are not hillbillies, we're not versed in the language or the culture of the 1%. It's a different world. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I'm not sure if Upward Bound still exists. 

Our local CC still has Upward Bound but not every low-income first generation student can get in. It's a competitive process and only a handful are accepted each year. It's a cohort group so if a student isn't accepted during the appropriate application year, that student is out of luck and on his own. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

This is exactly what I was talking about. I seriously see it as a defense mechanism. They see the progress of a young person as an attack/assault on them, as a repudiation of themselves.

This is how my family viewed it. I was a snob because I wanted to go to college. I had an attitude and was "holier than thou". My undergraduate graduation was a joke because my family wanted no part of "those people."

 

Funny how things have changed now that my sister is getting a BA. It's the greatest thing ever and she's "really making something of herself" and "changing the direction of her family history."

Edited June 28, 2017 by Scoutermom

[Guest]

This is how my family viewed it. I was a snob because I wanted to go to college. I had an attitude and was "holier than thou". My undergraduate graduation was a joke because my family wanted no part of "those people."

 

Funny how things have changed now that my sister is getting a BA. It's the greatest things ever and she's "really making something of herself" and "changing the direction of her family history."

That makes me sad. But I know how it is sometimes.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

When people learn about where DS is attending we get one of two reactions. The first is "Wow, you guys must be loaded."  The second is "Once he graduates, he's set for life."

 

It's a whopping big NO to both of those. He's there on scholarships and we scrimp for our portion (books, travel to and fro, appropriate clothes) and we are terrified, absolutely terrified that it will be all for naught and he'll end up back here working for peanuts because DH and I just don't have the contacts or the knowledge to help him get those internships, the school year experiences, etc that will make the biggest impact on finding a job. Too many young people are graduating from the highly selective schools with good GPAs, honors, Phi Beta Kappa, and so on and so forth. It's not like he's going to be unique among his cohort.

Yes, we want him to make good choices that will get him the good job but our family history isn't in business, academics, finance,  or medicine. It's a family of blue collar workers or military men who know how to put in a hard day's work for a hard day's pay. It was through the WTM that I learned about REUs and other internships. No one in our circle discusses things like that or even has an inkling about why they are important. The young people who do go to college are focused on finding a summer job to help pay for next semester's expenses. DS had a great internship last summer but it was unpaid. We had to finance it to the tune of over $2000. DS is frugal, though, and cut corners every chance he had. My heart broke for him as he lived in Atlanta for three months and didn't get to experience the city because he didn't want to put any more financial pressure on us. He knew that every $100 we sent meant it was coming from somewhere else. This summer he chose to work and try to help earn money for next year. We have been informed that he has made an error in judgement and has put himself in jeopardy for next year's REUs and internships. It's a lose-lose situation and we are trying. We are doing the best we can with the information we have.
 

[Scarlett]

This is how my family viewed it. I was a snob because I wanted to go to college. I had an attitude and was "holier than thou". My undergraduate graduation was a joke because my family wanted no part of "those people."

 

Funny how things have changed now that my sister is getting a BA. It's the greatest thing ever and she's "really making something of herself" and "changing the direction of her family history."

 

 

That is just unbelievable.  I really have never even known anyone to act that way....I guess it is a defense mechanism.  I am sorry though. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

That is just unbelievable.  I really have never even known anyone to act that way....I guess it is a defense mechanism.  I am sorry though. 

Thank you.

 

Count yourself lucky. It's just the tip of the dyfsunctional iceberg.  :glare:

[Sneezyone]

I read somewhere that low income students from anti-education families often do better living on campus, rather than close to family. It allows them to have study time instead of parents trying to insist they give up study time to babysit younger siblings or run errands.

 

There are actually stats to back this up but now that I need them I can't find  them, lol. I believe there was a report put out by the Education Trust not too long ago.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Jane in NC]

About opportunities tied to wealth and family culture:

 

I make a point of getting together with a young mother I know every month or two. She has a degree which she managed to acquire without debt via dual enrollment, living at home, scrimping, working or going to school--no extra curricular activities.  On the one hand, her achievement is really admirable.  On the other, I find it sad that she missed so much of what I see as the "college experience".

 

Often times I have read on this board that posters find the "college experience" to be meaningless--or they assume totally decadent.  But the college experience includes evening lectures, meetings with community leaders or visiting profs, international travel, etc. It also means that students can interact with a variety of other sorts of people.

 

My young friend has a four year degree; her husband an associate's.  Yet neither seem well versed in how to apply those degrees into finding jobs.  Both work in positions that do not require a degree.  One is happy with his job, the other is not.

 

There is a certain social disconnect here.  A good interview requires comfort in one's skin.  Achieving promotions involves demonstrating skill sets.

 

I know that both of these young adults are bright and promising people.  But they seem to have a heck of a time impressing their employers.  Is it a lack of communication skills, a lack of self confidence?

 

They keep their heads above water but acknowledge that they are not getting ahead.  

 

I have thought long and hard about this.  It seems that within my own family and among my friends, we offer greater support to our kids.  Financial and emotional.  We have encouraged participation in interesting opportunities starting at young ages.  But this requires a certain financial stability that I acknowledge not everyone has.

 

I am not suggesting that only the affluent will succeed.  I am saying that I believe some kids have distinct advantages due both to family monetary situations as well as support systems.  Both are critical. 

 

 

[Arcadia]

He's keeping toe-to-toe academically but it's the little things that are hurting his experience. Things like not knowing that casual dress is khakis, a white oxford, and a blue blazer. Things like not having a base knowledge of travel and world experiences(Yes, he is well read but he doesn't have the experiences). It's not having the networking skills (like sealing the deal over a round of golf) or family connections.

My side of the family is mostly business owners so I was steeped in that culture growing up. All of us have passports from when we were babies. My cousins even bought and sold small private country club memberships for a profit. Deals were created and discussed during wedding dinners and afternoon teas. When I was graduating, my cousins offered to asked all their business buddies if they have a vacancy if I had wanted my cousins to land me a job. My paternal aunts offered me a job in their family business and they did hire my paternal niece when she was unemployed.

 

When my same age friend was in college and graduating, she was panicking over clothes for interviews and makeup. Going for a free makeover at somewhere like Macy's scares her. She is much taller than me so I couldn't lend her my work clothes. So I went with her for her makeover and also interview clothes shopping. After she land a job, we went for job clothes shopping. She lived in subsidized housing and did not dare ask the middle income friends. She has known me since she was twelve and knew I had an easy time at internship interviews, and that I would help. I might be using slightly pricier makeup like YSL and Christian Dior because my mom uses mine and she pays for them, but I didn't have a problem giving my friends a job interview makeup with Cover Girl and Maybelline. Her dad wanted her and her sisters (no brothers) to have a college education but her controlling mom tried to sabotage because she thinks girls should be working and bringing home money after high school instead of spending money on a college education. My friend had a needs based scholarship for college.

 

I also knew a middle income family who paid for college for their son but not their daughter because "daughters don't need college" :( My dad taught the brother and sister when they were in elementary school and he was shocked when he found out because the public commuter university costs <$6k/yr then. The daughter did not qualify for needs based scholarship as family income is too high.

 

ETA:

My husband was the first among his siblings and cousins to gain entry to an elite middle school and high school based on academic scores. He told me he felt out of place as many were from affluent families. He was on a college prep track to medicine school. I was used to a different set of social settings and social etiquette then he was.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Arcadia

[HTRMom]

I liked this article. Thank you for sharing it.

 

My alma mater (Notre Dame) doesn't have many low-income students. I don't know whether they don't apply, or their applications aren't good enough to be accepted, the school is very competitive. But 75% of the low-income students end up being high-income adults. I was one of those students. I grew up barely above poverty, now our household income is 80%. But I'm not even working at the moment, so it's really that I found a successful Notre Dame physicist husband there.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Arcadia]

Often times I have read on this board that posters find the "college experience" to be meaningless--or they assume totally decadent. But the college experience includes evening lectures, meetings with community leaders or visiting profs, international travel, etc. It also means that students can interact with a variety of other sorts of people.

One of the Google company bus stops at my front door. I joked with my kids that if I find a low level job at Google, I won't need to worry about transportation to and from work.

 

Regarding the college experience being decadent, I was mentioning to my husband how the OP's link showed that CalPoly SLO's family median income is so much higher than CSU LA and both are California state universities.

 

My local news today shows wage disparity which can make state universities feel "decadent" for some people and very affordable for others.

 

"Wages in Santa Clara County, the San Francisco area and the East Bay have rocketed far above the average for the United States, according to a new report from federal officials.

 

Santa Clara County’s wages are 59 percent above the national average, while the San Francisco-San Mateo metro area is 53 percent higher, and East Bay workers command wages that are 26 percent over the U.S. average, the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics report shows.

...

The average hourly wage is $37.98 in Santa Clara County, $36.61 in the San Francisco-San Mateo metro area and $30.17 in the East Bay. The United States average hour wage is $23.86, the government survey determined. The figures for the annual survey were current as of May 2016, the most recent time period available." http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/28/san-jose-san-francisco-oakland-bay-area-wages-soar-above-national-average/

[Murphy101]

About opportunities tied to wealth and family culture:

 

I make a point of getting together with a young mother I know every month or two. She has a degree which she managed to acquire without debt via dual enrollment, living at home, scrimping, working or going to school--no extra curricular activities. On the one hand, her achievement is really admirable. On the other, I find it sad that she missed so much of what I see as the "college experience".

 

Often times I have read on this board that posters find the "college experience" to be meaningless--or they assume totally decadent. But the college experience includes evening lectures, meetings with community leaders or visiting profs, international travel, etc. It also means that students can interact with a variety of other sorts of people.

 

My young friend has a four year degree; her husband an associate's. Yet neither seem well versed in how to apply those degrees into finding jobs. Both work in positions that do not require a degree. One is happy with his job, the other is not.

 

There is a certain social disconnect here. A good interview requires comfort in one's skin. Achieving promotions involves demonstrating skill sets.

 

I know that both of these young adults are bright and promising people. But they seem to have a heck of a time impressing their employers. Is it a lack of communication skills, a lack of self confidence?

 

They keep their heads above water but acknowledge that they are not getting ahead.

 

I have thought long and hard about this. It seems that within my own family and among my friends, we offer greater support to our kids. Financial and emotional. We have encouraged participation in interesting opportunities starting at young ages. But this requires a certain financial stability that I acknowledge not everyone has.

 

I am not suggesting that only the affluent will succeed. I am saying that I believe some kids have distinct advantages due both to family monetary situations as well as support systems. Both are critical.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread. I try to encourage my boys to have a college experience. But there are so many ways their college experience is just not going to be as advertised and is more like your friends.

 

Living on campus is several hundred dollars more a month than off campus in a cheap apt.

 

They work, so there's only so much time around classes and work to spontaneously do things and it seems like everything is spontaneously scheduled.

 

I highly suspect this is the factor in the 56% success rate but only 11% mobility rate. Making sure kids get the help they need to finish their degree program is great there, but this non academic degree success is far more nuanced and harder to develop programs to make happen.

[Murphy101]

Uhhhh. I thought she meant decadent as in debauchery and general sin dens?

 

Because I have heard that a LOT.

 

Various versions of: Oh your boys are going to get in so much trouble with sex drugs and lose their faith!

 

They aren't going to some girls gone wild spring break. It's a mostly reputable state university. And they don't have any money for fast women and drugs, so they have that going for them.😜

 

And oh my god, you are letting your daughter go to CC and maybe university too?!

 

Yep. If at all possible. I hate to play favorites, but if anything she has more potential than her older brothers.

 

But she wants to be an artists and a sahm, so what's the point?

 

I'd kinda like to have an educated mother for my grandchildren? She's 16 and quite frankly isn't getting married anytime soon, so being a sahm isn't really an option and I figure she should do more with her life than wait around for mythical Mr Right. And she is an artist and that's great, but that may or may not have anything at all to do what career might be best for her. Maybe if she goes where everyone is working towards learning, she will discover a career suited to her. Worst case, maybe that's where she will meet Mr Right.

 

OMG. She won't meet a good Christian man at college!! She'll be raped!!

 

Um. I hope not. And there are actually a lot of good Christian, Catholic to boot, men at the state university my boys go to. If anything my boys have become better Catholics at college than they were at home. Thanks in no small part to a wonderful campus priest and a very active group of fellow college Catholics.

 

Of course instead of considering that they might not be entirely right about college, they probably instead think I'm suspect as a decent Christian mother.ðŸ˜

[Arcadia]

This is another problem in today's local papers regarding college and wealth, finding affordable housing at the last minute. Nearby apartments to SJSU rent for $2,700/month for a 1 bedroom which can have a maximum of three adults but the supply is limited and you have to find reliable roommates. We are <10 miles away and it is a minimum 20mins drive to get to SJSU even before 8am.

 

"San Jose State University has notified more than 600 students, including 118 freshmen required to live on campus, that it doesn’t have enough space in the dorms, after a surge in enrollment that has left hundreds of students scrambling for housing options this fall.

...

The notice included a link to off-campus housing options, which the family researched. One agency wanted $2,200 a month for a one-bedroom apartment that would require a bus ride to get to school and is located near a run-down strip mall. When the family called back a second time, the price had gone up. (A student living on campus at San Jose State will pay an average of about $15,500 total next school year for housing and food.)

 

The family lives about 80 miles from the school, a drive that can take hours in Bay Area traffic.

...

Normally, San Jose State enrolls 3,000-4,000 first-time freshmen and the school was anticipating about 4,000 for the coming academic year, spokeswoman Pat Lopes Harris said. Instead, 5,050 have said they plan to enroll, which exceeds the school’s supply of housing. “For some reason, people are valuing more and more that acceptance to San Jose State,†she said.

 

It’s not a new issue (In 2011, San Jose State made news when it moved some students into a hotel three miles from campus temporarily) but it’s one that has been exacerbated in recent years as the school has morphed from an accessible commuter campus into a competitive university and as housing costs in the Bay Area have climbed.

 

The university has previously been able to house all of its freshmen from outside a 30-mile radius. But while all of the freshmen “required†to live on campus who filed their housing applications before May 1 this year will get on-campus housing, the 118 who did not meet the deadline will not." http://www.mercuryne...live-on-campus/