My biggest homeschooling regret so far...

[Julie Smith]

I grew up in another Canadian province, so coming to Ontario and seeing what they did and still do trying to cram in too much, particularly too much math, to high school has always baffled me as to why they continue to do this to their students. Not only squeezing in a ton of math, but adding a language-writing component to their high school math program. It's very strange.

 

If you go to any other province in Canada except Quebec, you would see the difference at the high schools and into the universities as well. Math at the university levels outside Ontario and Quebec starts off at a lower level, but they do get it all in over the 4 years.

 

But Quebec highschool only goes to what is equal to grade 11. At least that is what my Dh says about his schooling experience. They call it something different like, "secondary something or other". 

[Julie Smith]

Interesting. They earn these in four years? How long are the school days/years? I'm just looking at my oldest and he earned 7 credits each his freshman and sophomore years. I'm not sure how we would've had time for an 8th.

 

Highschool in Ontario is suppose to be 4 years long, but about 20% of students take 5 years. If so that fifth year is called, "A Victory Lap". The school year is at least 194 days long, sometimes upto 196 days. Those days fall between Sept 1st and June the 30th. 

 

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/list/calendar/holidaye.html

 

One highschool in Ontario has this schedule: 

 

9:00 - 10:20 am

​Period 1

 

10:25 - 11:40 am

Period 2

 

11:40 - 12:30 pm

Lunch

 

12:30 - 1:45 pm

Period 3

 

1:50 - 3:05 pm

​Period 4

 

Some highschools go year round. As in you have the same schedule from September to June, and have space to take 8 credit classes. Other schools are on the semester system (Like my above schedule). You have space for 4 credit classes that run from September to January, and then you take a different 4 classes from February to June. 

 

So looking at that if you are on the semester system you have 194/ 2 classes per semester or 97 days. Take about 4 days for exams, leaving 93 days of classes. For each credit you take you are in class for at least 75 minutes or 6975  minutes throughout the year, or 116 hour and 15 minutes. Add in the 4 hours you spend taking your exam and you have 120 hours of class time - the typical carnegie unit of time needed for a credit. 

 

I think it is typical to take 8 courses a year for grade 9 and 10. That way if you fail a course you have space to make it up in grade 11 or 12. 

 

When I was in highschool we still had grade 13 otherwise known as OAC. When grade 13 was still around you needed (I'm going by memory here) 6 grade 13 credits to finish highschool. I also remember needing 5 english credits. I don't remember it being difficult to get them all, because I had completed it all in 4 years. But I did take a summer school class twice, just for something to do. I also took a night school class with my Mom so we could do something together. (She was also working on her highschool diploma. Because when she went to school she only got a semi diploma because that was all she needed to go to nursing school.)

Edited March 24, 2017 by Julie Smith

[JudoMom]

Highschool in Ontario is suppose to be 4 years long. The school year is at least 194 days long, sometimes upto 196 days. Those days fall between Sept 1st and June the 30th. 

 

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/list/calendar/holidaye.html

 

One highschool in Ontario has this schedule: 

 

9:00 - 10:20 am

​Period 1

 

10:25 - 11:40 am

Period 2

 

11:40 - 12:30 pm

Lunch

 

12:30 - 1:45 pm

Period 3

 

1:50 - 3:05 pm

​Period 4

 

I'm impressed that kids can get that many credits.  Do teens tend to work in High School?  What are extra curriculars like?  I did see upthread when I reread that kids sometimes take 5 years to complete.

[Julie Smith]

I'm impressed that kids can get that many credits.  Do teens tend to work in High School?  What are extra curriculars like?  I did see upthread when I reread that kids sometimes take 5 years to complete.

 

Some articles about that: 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/should-your-teen-keep-her-summer-job-into-the-school-year/article570584/

 

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Julie Smith

[Catwoman]

Redshirting is a personal decision and I understand all the reasons why. But someone has to be the youngest in the class, someone will be the shortest, etc. If all summer birthdays redshirt, then spring birthdays look young and people start to consider redshirting all the way to Jan birthdays. It would be better if schools could meet kids where they are and not have classrooms with a year or more gap between classmates. Or maybe no one could start until they were 7 and there could be September groups and January groups.

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I had never even heard of redshirting until I read about it on this forum. Everyone I knew went by whatever the district rules were. If anyone asked for an exception, it was to get their December birthday child to start school in September instead of having to wait until the following September.

 

Ds17 has always been homeschooled, so we never had to think about any of that stuff! :)

[Bluegoat]

We don't call it redshirting here - I hadn't heard that term before WTM either.

 

I think it's true that others doing it begins to make it more necessary to do it.  And unfortunately that really disadvantages those kids whose parents can't afford to do it.

 

But ultimately how common it is becoming it really says to me that the school starting ages are in some way inappropriate  Generally in either the academic requirements, or other elements of the school setting (class size, length of day etc.)  Or, often, both.

 

I find myself wondering, when it has become so common here, especially since they lowered the age to start, why the policy makers haven't clued in that it isn't appropriate.

[SKL]

Can you tell him you did 1st grade "early" and he's really supposed to be in K now and 1st next year?

[Lecka]

When I was a child, many boys were held back to be larger for football when they were older. It was felt that if some boys did it to gain a competitive advantage, then other boys needed to do it, too, or they would lose a chance.

 

Redshirting in football is to be on a team but not play on games in order to reserve another year of playing time when they are older and stronger. So a "redshirt freshman" in college football is assumed to later be a 5th-year senior in order to have that extra year of eligibility. (Bc only 4 years of eligibility are allowed.)

 

So from my understanding this is where the term comes from.

 

Edit: this honestly was a factor for me too, a bit, because some relatives would assume I was redshirting for sports and I would be embarrassed to have them think I valued sports so highly. Now I only hear about redshirting bc of pushed-down Kindergarten expectations, but that is how it was when I was a child.

 

Locally Kindergarten is not as developmentally inappropriate as it is in some locations, and that is part of it, too.

 

My son didn't get an 80s Kindergarten experience, but he got recess and play time. What he did not get was a nap but the teacher gave out a questionnaire to see if any kids napped and no one in his class was.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Lecka

[wintermom]

But Quebec highschool only goes to what is equal to grade 11. At least that is what my Dh says about his schooling experience. They call it something different like, "secondary something or other". 

 

Yes, it's called cégep (an acronym). 

 

https://www.sram.qc.ca/international-student/what-are-cegeps

Edited March 24, 2017 by wintermom

[Guest]

I'd never heard of red shirting before here either. I was vaguely familiar with the practice but not the name. I did hold my six year old back a bit but he simply wasn't ready academically. Even when we tried to proceed with him as a six year old kindergartener he struggled and hit walls in his academic ability that were just plain brain and fine motor maturity. I waited four more months on math and six more months on handwriting and started again post nicu and BAM! he's doing amazingly on things he simply couldn't get before.

 

I'm so glad he wasn't in a public school because he'd have thought he was stupid or been frustrated because his abilities just weren't where the grade median said they should be. And the extra maturation time emotionally has been super helpful in things like ballet too.

[mamaofgirls]

I am an awe over how many people think red shirting is a good thing and that know one has listed any negatives. As someone who was the oldest in her class, I DREADED my birthday every single year. People would ask why I am older - stating things like I am stupid, slow, ect... I would never suggest red shirting any child and would try very, very hard to work outside of the public school time to keep them at grade level. I would never want any child to feel so bad on their special day (or any day!) - and this was not just in the younger years or older years, it was every.single.year.

[DesertBlossom]

I am an awe over how many people think red shirting is a good thing and that know one has listed any negatives. As someone who was the oldest in her class, I DREADED my birthday every single year. People would ask why I am older - stating things like I am stupid, slow, ect... I would never suggest red shirting any child and would try very, very hard to work outside of the public school time to keep them at grade level. I would never want any child to feel so bad on their special day (or any day!) - and this was not just in the younger years or older years, it was every.single.year.

I wonder if feelings about this would be different for boys vs girls.

[Julie Smith]

I have read regrets from people who redshirted kids. Mainly it is from parents who realize it is hard to force a 18, 19, or almost 20 year old to go to highschool. At that age the kid no longer feels that they belong in highschool and want to move on, but can't go onto university or college because they still haven't finished highschool and have a year or several months more of highschool left.

[wintermom]

I am an awe over how many people think red shirting is a good thing and that know one has listed any negatives. As someone who was the oldest in her class, I DREADED my birthday every single year. People would ask why I am older - stating things like I am stupid, slow, ect... I would never suggest red shirting any child and would try very, very hard to work outside of the public school time to keep them at grade level. I would never want any child to feel so bad on their special day (or any day!) - and this was not just in the younger years or older years, it was every.single.year.

 

I remember always being jealous of the kids who had their birthday early and were older than the rest of us. It was more of a status symbol than a badge of shame, IME. Were you held back a year to repeat a grade, and self-conscious of that?

Edited March 24, 2017 by wintermom

[JudoMom]

I remember always being jealous of the kids who had their birthday early and were older than the rest of us. It was more of a status symbol than a badge of shame, IME. Were you held back a year to repeat a grade, and self-conscious of that?

Yeah, I missed the cutoff by 10 days, so I was always one of the oldest. It wasn't a big deal.

[HTRMom]

How many people can afford to pay for the extra year of pre-school is a huge factor, and then the tipping point where people start to need to do it because everybody else is doing it.

This is what worries me about it. The poor families can't afford to redshirt, so that's one more disadvantage for them. Because no matter how you do it, the oldest will always have a slight advantage, and there will always be the oldest and the youngest.

 

Redshirt is huge in our system, so my September and November boys who should be just about the oldest will probably be in the middle. (Sept 1 cutoff.) My June boy, who should be the youngest, will have to redshirt and be the oldest. If we do PS, that is.

[HTRMom]

For those wondering, I believe the actual term comes from college football (US) where players can choose not to play freshman year and have a fourth year of eligibility at the end of five years of college. They wear red shirts to games. Maybe it's all sports? Anyway, college sports eligibility.

 

 

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[MinivanMom]

I have read regrets from people who redshirted kids. Mainly it is from parents who realize it is hard to force a 18, 19, or almost 20 year old to go to highschool. At that age the kid no longer feels that they belong in highschool and want to move on, but can't go onto university or college because they still haven't finished highschool and have a year or several months more of highschool left.

 

I've encountered this frequently as well.

 

Maybe it's my area of the country or the circles I run in, but redshirting is not common here. Here it's still a status symbol to have a child who is young for their grade whether due to a late-summer birthday, early kindergarten entry, or grade-skipping. Those who have opted to redshirt often express regrets once their child hits 17, 18, 19. It's tough to be stuck in high school at that age. And it's tough to parent a child (legal adult) who is still stuck in high school and frustrated over the situation. 

 

The parents I've known who have been happy long-term about redshirting seem to have kids who struggle academically and genuinely benefited from extra time to master academics. The parents with the most regrets seem to be those who redshirted due to physical size or maturity despite their child being academically capable. A lot can change between 6 & 16 when it comes to size and maturity. And I've seen it be a negative thing for kids to be the oldest and most mature when puberty hits - particularly for girls. I'm not sure why so many people are enamored of the idea that it's always beneficial to be the biggest and most mature. But I think this board tends strongly toward redshirting - much more than I've encountered in real life.

 

For OP, I would suggest meeting with the school before making any decisions. They can give you an idea of where your child will fit in academically and socially. If it's possible, you should also chat up some parents with kids at the school. They can often give you an idea of whether redshirting is happening and how teachers at the school will feel about a boy with a summer birthday. Here it would be no big deal, but it may be different in your area.

[unsinkable]

Years ago, someone on boards here, posted something to the effect of...

 

A plus of NOT "red-shirting" (especially in an area that mostly red shirts) is that your child completes compulsory education 'early' and can thus begin his or her adult life.

 

It is a tough decision, IMO. And unfortunately, you don't get a do-over and you always wonder what-would-have-happened-if.

[wintermom]

I have read regrets from people who redshirted kids. Mainly it is from parents who realize it is hard to force a 18, 19, or almost 20 year old to go to highschool. At that age the kid no longer feels that they belong in highschool and want to move on, but can't go onto university or college because they still haven't finished highschool and have a year or several months more of highschool left.

 

The parents don't have to force a person at that age. It's no longer their call. 

[musicianmom]

*

Edited May 21, 2022 by musicianmom

[SKL]

I'm not a fan of "redshirting" for advantage or ease, but I favor placement based on the right fit for the individual child, whether that is "early," "late," or in-between.

 

To a pp's question, I do think the effects of "redshirting" may be different for girls vs. boys.  I was a younger girl and I could not wait to get done with high school.  Even being young, I felt very uncomfortable with the infantilizing policies of high school (and this was 35 years ago, so I'm guessing it's worse now).  I didn't get my driver's license until I was a full-time college student, and no, that was not a problem in the social sense, nor was dating, drinking, etc., which I was in no hurry to do.  In terms of challenge and intellectual maturity, I felt like college was a much better fit for me when I was 16.  I probably would have been a dropout if I couldn't finish high school until 18+.

 

My daughters are the youngest in their class.  They are definitely a better fit there than they would be in a lower class.  When my eldest has been in groups where she's on the older side, she has expressed frustration and a desire for more challenge.  So like a pp, I question the idea that being older automatically makes school a better experience.  (Not saying the OP was thinking that.)

[scoutingmom]

Interesting. They earn these in four years? How long are the school days/years? I'm just looking at my oldest and he earned 7 credits each his freshman and sophomore years. I'm not sure how we would've had time for an 8th.

It is 30 credits in Manitoba.

 

It is 100 credits in Alberta in 3 years.... But a credit there is entirely different.

 

 

I was at a homeschool conference in Manitoba recently and in a homeschooling high school workshop it mentioned that a credit is 110 hours - which sounds sorted than credit discussions here.....

 

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[Guest]

I'm not a fan of "redshirting" for advantage or ease, but I favor placement based on the right fit for the individual child, whether that is "early," "late," or in-between.

 

To a pp's question, I do think the effects of "redshirting" may be different for girls vs. boys. I was a younger girl and I could not wait to get done with high school. Even being young, I felt very uncomfortable with the infantilizing policies of high school (and this was 35 years ago, so I'm guessing it's worse now). I didn't get my driver's license until I was a full-time college student, and no, that was not a problem in the social sense, nor was dating, drinking, etc., which I was in no hurry to do. In terms of challenge and intellectual maturity, I felt like college was a much better fit for me when I was 16. I probably would have been a dropout if I couldn't finish high school until 18+.

 

My daughters are the youngest in their class. They are definitely a better fit there than they would be in a lower class. When my eldest has been in groups where she's on the older side, she has expressed frustration and a desire for more challenge. So like a pp, I question the idea that being older automatically makes school a better experience. (Not saying the OP was thinking that.)

I think we are probably in more agreement than disagreement. The thing to do is what is right for the kid. I didn't have the chops to do what my spidey sense told me to do and I regret it. That's all.

[bettyandbob]

Well, there's a possibility for a student who is ready to move on--graduate them early. Our ps is so awful for many kids that they double up on English (the only thing they need 4 credits of) and graduate at Christmas. We have two girls the age of some of mine at our local uni that did just that.

This. A student could use summer school or online credits to do this too.

 

Honestly, 18 is a typical age to graduate. If you are having serious problems with an 18, you are most likely having problems with that child at 17.

 

I graduated one at 17 and one at 18, both November birthdays. 17yo was the one with difficulty. In my sister's family neither the 18, almost 19 graduate not the 17, almost 18 graduate gave her trouble at the end of high school.

 

This has to do with personality, not graduation date. If you want the ability to graduate at 17, I guess that puts you in the position of telling child to leave home at his 18 the birthday, knowing he has a diploma.

[ktgrok]

We redshirted DS (july birthday) and it was 100 percent the best parenting decision I ever made. Still is. Yes, he's more mature now, so he's doing dual enrollment instead of regular college classes. He could also have chosen to graduate early, but he's not ready. He was absolutely not ready for kindergarten the year he turned 5. Not even close. The next year, he was just more mature, and ready to go. 

[kitten18]

I am an awe over how many people think red shirting is a good thing and that know one has listed any negatives. As someone who was the oldest in her class, I DREADED my birthday every single year. People would ask why I am older - stating things like I am stupid, slow, ect... I would never suggest red shirting any child and would try very, very hard to work outside of the public school time to keep them at grade level. I would never want any child to feel so bad on their special day (or any day!) - and this was not just in the younger years or older years, it was every.single.year.

When is your birthday?

 

My kids birthdays are mid-late October.

Where we (DH and I) grew up and in the two state where I taught school it would have been absurd to put them in K as 4 year olds. But we live in CAL and the cutoff when they started school was Dec 2 so technically they're redshirted because they didn't go to K for 3 months before they turned 5🙄

 

I taught middle school and high school. Within 5 minutes of getting a new class I could tell you who were the youngest kids in the class. That's not a good thing.