Another martial arts semi-vent / question -- aikido, TKD

[38carrots]

Is the issue of matching one's strength to your partner's ever addressed in class? I have my DD8 in yoshinkan aikido; she's tall for her age and is often paired with 10-11 year olds boys who are the same belt (green). Those boys throw /pull her much harder and I can see their technique is not as controlled as of the higher belts. Last class she was practically in tears because her arm was hurting from being pulled on it--over a dozen times in a row, as the boy was going through the technique really fast. At the end she didn't even get a turn to do the technique on him!

 

I get it that she should have told her partners to use less force and that technically they should have respected this. But she didn't.

 

I would really like if our Sensei not only talked about it every class as a reminder (he has NEVER said anything in the 2 + years we've been there) but also helped the younger ones to address their partners in class and watched out for this kind of uneveness. And it is not that DD is not forcefull--she can be. But she watches herself with smaller / yonger / lower belts.

 

When my kids talk about other kids in the dojo, I often hear, "Oh, he's the worst! He pinches hard / throws hard / hurts your arms" about certain kids.

 

It this how it is supposed to be, because this is a martial art and they are just supposed to suck it up? Or should the Sensei be attuned to those issues?

 

I find the Sensei is really not quite humble, and it annoys me. I've watched every class (most other parents leave) and some days I just cringe at how pompous he is. I used to think that I loved him, but now I'm more and more irritated with him.

 

We only have one aikido dojo for kids (more options for adults). DH has been very against TKD, as he says it is more violent and it is all about "blows to the head." He loves the philosophy of aikido (and I do too, but the kids aren't getting any "philosophy" that's for sure). But we have way more options for TKD here. I keep thinking, if this is so violent, why is it so popular? (Or am I missing something about martial arts lol). Should we try to look at TKD dojos as an alternative?

Edited January 11, 2017 by 38carrots

[regentrude]

The sensei should definitely address that. Martial art is not about "sucking it up" or "taking punches". The purpose of the class is to learn the proper technique, not a competition of strength. 

TKD is not "violent" and definitely not "all about blows to the head". I can ask DS for details; he has been doing TKD for five years. A lot is about precise technical execution of moves. It is not a beat-your-opponent-up free- for- all.

If I recall correctly, our school had a lower age limit for full sparring. We never had an injury.

Edited January 11, 2017 by regentrude

[JustEm]

Dh is a martial arts instructor and he mentions it regularly in all the classes, especially the adult classes because for some reason the adults are the worst with control. His school takes control into account when it comes to test time. It has its own grading category because it is so important. I once had the wind knocked out of me during a test because someone took one step(which isn't supposed to have any actual contact or very minimal just to make it.clear to your partner where you are hitting them) too enthusiastically and swiped my legs. This guy had great combinations but his complete lack a f control hurt his grade.

 

I think you need to address this with the instructors because someone can seriously get hurt if a partner doesn't know how to control themselves.

[Ausmumof3]

TKD classes for us are pretty much non contact until higher belt levels.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

This is addressed in nearly every class. You don't spar harder than you want to be sparred, if your opponent is sparring significantly lighter than you you back off, you spar the person in front of you, not their belt color, we're a family we're not trying to hurt each other, etc. If someone is consistently too rough we're encouraged to tell an instructor and they'll deal with it. People have been told to take their gear off and sit down for sparring too rough. Sometimes it's just a matter of kids not knowing their own strength. We had a girl in our class who kicked and punched so hard and with no control. She'd just throw a kick or there as hard as she could and it landed where ever it landed. Several of us other students mentioned it to her and she has improved significantly in the past few months. She just wasn't aware of how strong she was.

[regentrude]

Talked to DS:

at his school, children are not allowed to kick/hit to the head.

[Butter]

We do taekwondo (ATA).  No punches to the head are allowed.  Ever.  Kicks to the head are allowed, and in fact are worth more in point sparring, but kicks (to the head) are never as strong as punches (and we wear protective gear).  Sparring is all about punches and kicks since obviously that's how you score and it give practice if heaven forbid you should end up in a fight, but the focus is on defense.  The fight you win is the fight you are NOT in, but sometimes you do need to know how to defend yourself.  We don't do contact sparring (well, except for adults in adult classes) until upper ranks.

 

As for control, our instructor talks a lot about not hurting other people.  If he pairs a higher rank student up with one who is a lower rank or hasn't been sparring for long, he will remind the higher rank student to be careful and pull back a little.  He only allows the higher rank students who he knows have learned control to even do that.  How hard you spar is a clue to your partner of how hard to go back.  A student who is always going really all out and hurting people would be spoken to privately and helped to learn to pull back or realize they are stronger than they think.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Butter

[HS Mom in NC]

Our TKD master would never allow that kind of thing.

[YaelAldrich]

Half my kids do judo and half do kendo.  We have a good friend who is go-dan in aikido.  In all these martial arts, the sensei should be aware of problem people as they should be watching them spar.  Of course your child should speak up as well.  No one should end up sore because people are being sloppy (and that's what it is - aikido is about using your body and their moves to deflect/flow).  Size to a point shouldn't matter, especially as the taller person tends to be higher rank.  My son and daughter have been doing kendo since they were six and when we live in the States, they spar and do kata with people much, much larger than them.  The adults (mostly) know to back off on blows.  The ones who don't get a talking to by the sensei or my kids.  

 

I know it is hard finding the more rare martial arts, so I wish you luck in fixing the problem so you don't have to quit.

[YaelAldrich]

On the humbleness of sensei.  We've lived in a lot of places and seen a lot of sensei.  Not all are humble; most are.  But pompous and not helping make the class the best it can be, nope.

 

[Wheres Toto]

My kids do TKD and just started sparring now that they are blue belts.  I know certain moves (leg sweeps is one I think) that are not allowed until a higher level and certain moves that are never allowed when sparring with lower belts.  

 

It's definitely not all about blows to the head and I don't find it violent either, at least at this level.  It's learning kicks, punches and blocks but it's more about learning control and discipline.   When sparring, they wear full gear which certainly reduces the impact of kicks since kicking high with a big pad on your chest isn't that easy.

[Moonhawk]

Our TKD master would not allow it.  He talks about control, and when he pairs them reminds the older/younger/less experienced/known-issue-kid about what they need to adjust for their partner.  Going through techniques and patterns without control is a huge sticking point for him. 

 

That being said, the kids get hurt sometimes.  It's not that they are told to suck it up, or toughen up buttercup, as much of a reminder that yes, you can get hurt, and yes, you need to defend yourself. (nothing ever serious though, and after the first painful contact he would have made changes in the sparring match up).  If the kids are evenly matched, he doesn't really tell them to hold back.  And, he does expect them to defend themselves with words too, either to the sparring partner or to him.  

 

I know my mom once thought my daughter's sparring partner was going too hard on her, she said something to the sensei, and he said "No, don't hold her back, and don't try to stifle her.  She can go just as hard, she just needs to feel like she has permission." And yeah, my daughter picked up her force a bit, and it all ended happily.  Again: they were evenly matched, and despite the force used on both sides, it was controlled and no one got actually hurt (just maybe a bit sore).

 

And, they are never ever allowed to go for the head.  That is a off-the-floor-find-your-parent-and-bring-them-here-now type of offense (at these belt levels at least). In our experience, it is not all about violence.  I mean sure, more than yoga, but not more than the other options around here. At our cross discipline tournament, our kids held their own but definitely weren't more violent or aggressive than any other dojos or disciplines (I know there was karate and 2 others but idk what they were). 

[38carrots]

I really appreciate all the responses. Lots to process. DH and I will be visiting other dojos / disciplines. Maybe we can find a good balance.

[kiana]

I have heard your comments about your kid's Aikido class before and it really, really troubles me. That is not what it's supposed to be like and every Aikido dojo I've ever visited would address the issue of an imbalance of force without expecting the smaller and younger person to speak up and say that they're being hurt (which is often very difficult to do because no child wants to be "the whiner").

 

TKD is just fine when well done. A good instructor is far more important than which specific style at age 8. Best of luck. 

[bensonduck]

That would not fly at our TKD studio. My 8 year old orange belt daughter knows that there are a few kids who are "more aggressive " and the instructors seem to know this and tend to match the aggressive kids up with assistant instructors when it is time to spar so their technique and attitude can be refined. The kids at our dojang are all very close - they are friends and practice together before and after class. The friendships are strong and I think that helps alleviate some of the aggression as well. It's a lot easier to say to someone you consider a friend, hey, can you please tone it down a bit?

 

TKD is hands down the best activity my children have participated it. My kids have made huge gains in confidence. Our studio is all about encouragement to work hard inside and outside the dojang and be a positive influence in one's family and community at large.

[38carrots]

I have heard your comments about your kid's Aikido class before and it really, really troubles me. That is not what it's supposed to be like and every Aikido dojo I've ever visited would address the issue of an imbalance of force without expecting the smaller and younger person to speak up and say that they're being hurt (which is often very difficult to do because no child wants to be "the whiner").

 

TKD is just fine when well done. A good instructor is far more important than which specific style at age 8. Best of luck. 

 

I hear you. My younger two do like it, so it will be a challenge to switch. Plus I don't like "quitting." I hope that after visiting some TKD dojos the solution will present itself and will be clear. My oldest is either switching to the adult Aikido dojo (if she will be allowed, she is a year younger than they say they would accept) or also looking into TKD.

[Mandamom]

Is the issue of matching one's strength to your partner's ever addressed in class? I have my DD8 in yoshinkan aikido; she's tall for her age and is often paired with 10-11 year olds boys who are the same belt (green). Those boys throw /pull her much harder and I can see their technique is not as controlled as of the higher belts. Last class she was practically in tears because her arm was hurting from being pulled on it--over a dozen times in a row, as the boy was going through the technique really fast. At the end she didn't even get a turn to do the technique on him!

 

I get it that she should have told her partners to use less force and that technically they should have respected this. But she didn't.

 

I would really like if our Sensei not only talked about it every class as a reminder (he has NEVER said anything in the 2 + years we've been there) but also helped the younger ones to address their partners in class and watched out for this kind of uneveness. And it is not that DD is not forcefull--she can be. But she watches herself with smaller / yonger / lower belts.

 

When my kids talk about other kids in the dojo, I often hear, "Oh, he's the worst! He pinches hard / throws hard / hurts your arms" about certain kids.

 

It this how it is supposed to be, because this is a martial art and they are just supposed to suck it up? Or should the Sensei be attuned to those issues?

 

I find the Sensei is really not quite humble, and it annoys me. I've watched every class (most other parents leave) and some days I just cringe at how pompous he is. I used to think that I loved him, but now I'm more and more irritated with him.

 

We only have one aikido dojo for kids (more options for adults). DH has been very against TKD, as he says it is more violent and it is all about "blows to the head." He loves the philosophy of aikido (and I do too, but the kids aren't getting any "philosophy" that's for sure). But we have way more options for TKD here. I keep thinking, if this is so violent, why is it so popular? (Or am I missing something about martial arts lol). Should we try to look at TKD dojos as an alternative?

My kids are in a Mixed Martial arts that utilizes pieces of Tae Kwon Do  and this would not fly -- AT ALL. The biggest requirement is control. Each person must have self-control or they won't be sparring at all. He will stick black belts against lower ranks because he knows that they have control. 

[luuknam]

I hear you. My younger two do like it, so it will be a challenge to switch. Plus I don't like "quitting."

 

It's not "quitting" if you're stopping for a legit reason. Which this sounds like.

[KarenNC]

I hear you. My younger two do like it, so it will be a challenge to switch. Plus I don't like "quitting." I hope that after visiting some TKD dojos the solution will present itself and will be clear. My oldest is either switching to the adult Aikido dojo (if she will be allowed, she is a year younger than they say they would accept) or also looking into TKD.

 

It's not quitting to determine that a particular situation is not working. My daughter tried kickboxing for several months in addition to her aikido before determining that kickboxing as a martial art just wasn't a good fit for her. I would have zero compunction about looking for an alternative if the instructor is not consistently stressing safety and adequate respect for one's practice partner, especially with children, and especially with pre-teen boys who may need more guidance about how to deal with their developing size and strength.

 

Is the adult aikido dojo also yoshinkan? It's my understanding that yoshinkan is a particularly "hard" style of aikido, and she might do better in a different style. My husband and daughter have been involved with a USAF-affiliated dojo (aikikai) since my daughter was 6, and this would not fly in our dojo.

[mathnerd]

Plus I don't like "quitting." 

When we ended our contract with my son's TKD studio because we did not like the teaching methods (after 5+ years in that studio), the first thing that came out of the owner's mouth was that I was teaching my son that "quitting" was OK by pulling him out. I was given a 10 minute talk on how quitting sets my child up for being a quitter for the rest of his life etc. I was also sent a followup email with "QUITTING" in capital letters. This is standard marketing tactics with local DoJos in my area.

 

We moved to a different TKD school with one of the most reputed grandmasters in my area and they teach sparring twice a weak with close monitoring and there are no blows to the head at all and a senior instructor is always watching every sparring contact and they divide kids into age groups and subdivide based on size. Full gear is mandatory. They also allow kids to skip sparring class and attend the Forms and Technique classes which are held on other 4 days of the week. TKD is not violent - it is a martial art which teaches self-control. A good grand master in a DoJang affiliated to a national martial arts association would have good standards and procedures for sparring. And changing a martial arts school because it is not meeting your needs is not quitting - you are showing your child by example how to make positive changes when things are not going their way.

[regentrude]

It is not quitting if the instructor does not emphasize safety.

[tampamommy]

hjffkj's post is absolutely spot-on. I teach several disciplines including taekwondo, krav maga, ground combat and full contact sparring. One thing I stress is control and safety in each and every class...adult classes and children's classes. I also demonstrate the appropriate amount of strength, the speed, etc at which the particular techique(s) should be done. I liberally slow people down if needed. Newer students are very eager to go full blast and it is dangerous to themselves and others. Senseis should always be stressing and demonstrating safety.

 

While this is an issue with children, it is so true that adults who are new to training (especially men) seem to be the hardest to reinforce this with.

 

Pardon my grammar. :)

 

[happypamama]

OP, that's not how it should be. A little sore from hard work is one thing, or even a particularly sore limb because occasionally things go haywire, but not routinely being hurt by bigger and stronger kids. Our dojang works really hard to match similar sizes/strength and level. It's not always perfect, but it's very good. If they pair two kids of very different sizes/strengths, they watch closely and have the bigger/stronger kid tone things down if need be. They're also super respectful of asking the girls if they're okay with certain moves. (There aren't as many girls, and teenage girls in particular may feel uncomfortable doing certain moves with boys. I know our instructor has checked with DD a few times. He may also check with the teenage boys, but I don't have any of those yet. There are certain exercises where I'm not comfortable with mixed company, and he's always made sure to pair girls together for those.)

 

Fwiw, my kids do hapkido, which is more focused on self defense than on attacks.

 

I puffy heart love our dojang and instructors. They're really good guys who genuinely care about their students. I didn't look at other places because so many people recommended this one, but I also don't think it's at all unreasonable to try a few other places. It's not quitting to look for a better fit.

[happypamama]

Also, no heads. They're really careful about control for punch moves that involve the face. My kids have gotten bonked once or twice by accident but no more seriously than they do just messing around at home with each other.

[38carrots]

DH and I talked a bit, and he says that TKD has the worst injuries to head and neck from all martial arts. (True?) I think DH and I are reading different materials lol I tell him that I'm talking to the Wise Women here, and about *kids'* TKD.

 

My youngest loves our Sensei. Adores him. I used to like him much, much more. Now I'm having some doubts. Also I'm not sure how to distinguish "sore" from "hurt." When I said she was hurt--it is not like she required medical attention. So maybe sore is the right word?

 

I want to go and watch TKD with the kids and have them try out a class. Maybe even do it concurrently for a bit. My 8yo is not completely for this, as she says she loves aikido, but DS12 is on board about exploring and trying other things. Another drawback that aikido is only once a week, and ideally I'd like them to go at least 3 times.

 

Though over time DH has emphasised so much how Aikido is so awesome, and TKD is a "no way" category...That I can see why DD8 is so adamant about not going anywhere else but Aikido. This said, DH has never watched their classes and never met Sensei.

 

DH was saying to look into Hapkido--but not kids' classes at all in our city and vicinity. I also like that Aikido is all in the same time for all 3 kids. With TKD it seems that there will be different time slots (pulling my hair out!)

 

I do want them to continue with martial arts and to love it and to grow with it. They devoted over 2 years in Aikido...I know it is not really "quitting" but I feel it will be a hard change, unless we see TKD and LOVE it all. And can convince DH to be more open minded. DH and I view martial arts (their practice, the need for them, and why our kids are involved) very differently.

 

Sorry for venting again. Just trying to get my thoughts together on this one.

[YaelAldrich]

Would you feel comfortable speaking to the sensei? Do you think talking to him could make a big enough difference to make it worthwhile to stay? TKD is a good sport but honestly one of my kids was also doing TKD concurrently for a couple of years. we moved a lot so we tried a lot of dojangs in HI, IN (twice), and MD. I only loved one dojang, tolerated two, and felt one was just on this side of a belt factory. I have loved all our judo dojos (Japan, IN, MA).

I know it can hard to speak to your kids' sensei, but if it were me, I would give it a shot.

Good luck!

 

Edited to stop a kitten from dying - thanks auto-correct!

Edited January 13, 2017 by YaelAldrich

[38carrots]

Would you feel comfortable speaking to the sensei? Do you think talking to him could make a big enough difference to make it worthwhile to stay? TKD is a good sport but honestly one of my kid's was also doing TKD concurrently for a couple of years. we moved a lot so we tried a lot of dojangs in HI, IN (twice), and MD. I only loved one dojang, tolerated two, and felt one was just on this side of a belt factory. I have loved our judo dojos (Japan, IN, MA).

 

I know it can hard to speak to your kids' sensei, but if it were me, I would give it a shot.

 

Good luck!

 

I don't think talking to him would make any difference--he is very pleased with himself.

 

I just watched some TKD videos on youtube, and honestly, after being "used" to Aikido, I don't really like it myself :-(. I just wish I liked our Sensei better and that we had more classes per week. And all things considered--he is not *horrible.* I like how considerate he is at gradings (mixes formality with gentle kindness). I like how he praises the kids--sparingly, but with lots of meaning. I think it is a mixed bag--good with the not so great.

 

I googled for judo in our area--there's a place, but all 3 kids would be in different age groups / time slots AND it is only once a week again! I'll google more and ask around. It's a journey.

[Terabith]

My husband, who has been practicing aikido for years, says he would be very concerned because in many ways, the potential for serious, long term injury to joints and tendons in aikido is higher than in many other, more violent, martial arts.  He thinks this sounds like a dangerous place and poorly run class.  He said his kids wouldn't be in there. 

[YaelAldrich]

OK, way out of the box but it worked for us.  Is the aikido sensei the only sensei in that dojo/area?  Would you feel comfortable finding someone to teach them several other times a week so they get more practice and in a better environment?  We did that for two years when we only had access to once a week kendo.  I even drove two hours round trip to make it happen.  Maybe that could change up the dynamic enough to make it work for your family.

[kiwik]

I did aikido and the techniques shouldn't really hurt - you want it to flow smoothly so your opponent is drawn in almost willingly. If you hurt them they will seize up and fight. I did have a guy who I trained with for a long time who was quite hard at the end of the technique but that was because we were both experimenting with arm locks - we also both released the moment the other person tapped out. Strength disparity shoukdn't be a problem because it is not about strength. Height diffences are a pain but workable. The Sensei is not maintaining order.

 

Eta. I did a style towards the hard end but not the hardest.

Edited January 13, 2017 by kiwik

[Rebel Yell]

Is the issue of matching one's strength to your partner's ever addressed in class? I have my DD8 in yoshinkan aikido; she's tall for her age and is often paired with 10-11 year olds boys who are the same belt (green). Those boys throw /pull her much harder and I can see their technique is not as controlled as of the higher belts. Last class she was practically in tears because her arm was hurting from being pulled on it--over a dozen times in a row, as the boy was going through the technique really fast. At the end she didn't even get a turn to do the technique on him!

 

I get it that she should have told her partners to use less force and that technically they should have respected this. But she didn't.

 

I would really like if our Sensei not only talked about it every class as a reminder (he has NEVER said anything in the 2 + years we've been there) but also helped the younger ones to address their partners in class and watched out for this kind of uneveness. And it is not that DD is not forcefull--she can be. But she watches herself with smaller / yonger / lower belts.

 

When my kids talk about other kids in the dojo, I often hear, "Oh, he's the worst! He pinches hard / throws hard / hurts your arms" about certain kids.

 

It this how it is supposed to be, because this is a martial art and they are just supposed to suck it up? Or should the Sensei be attuned to those issues?

 

I find the Sensei is really not quite humble, and it annoys me. I've watched every class (most other parents leave) and some days I just cringe at how pompous he is. I used to think that I loved him, but now I'm more and more irritated with him.

 

We only have one aikido dojo for kids (more options for adults). DH has been very against TKD, as he says it is more violent and it is all about "blows to the head." He loves the philosophy of aikido (and I do too, but the kids aren't getting any "philosophy" that's for sure). But we have way more options for TKD here. I keep thinking, if this is so violent, why is it so popular? (Or am I missing something about martial arts lol). Should we try to look at TKD dojos as an alternative?

  

 

Oh gosh NO! Speak up IMMEDIATELY. BabyBaby ended up in physical therapy for about six months due to a wild 24yo yanking on her arm too hard. He has hurt other people, and if I ruled the gym he would be banned.

 

I hear you. My younger two do like it, so it will be a challenge to switch. Plus I don't like "quitting." I hope that after visiting some TKD dojos the solution will present itself and will be clear. My oldest is either switching to the adult Aikido dojo (if she will be allowed, she is a year younger than they say they would accept) or also looking into TKD.

She is being injured. If she was on a swim team that allowed kids to swim with turds floating in the pool, or a softball team that allowed and encouraged kids to smack each other with bats would you make her stay?

If she has prior training, they may allow her in class on a provisional basis even if she is below their minimum age. BabyBaby has taken adult classes due to her rank, experience, and how seriously she takes her training.

 

 

  

When we ended our contract with my son's TKD studio because we did not like the teaching methods (after 5+ years in that studio), the first thing that came out of the owner's mouth was that I was teaching my son that "quitting" was OK by pulling him out. I was given a 10 minute talk on how quitting sets my child up for being a quitter for the rest of his life etc. I was also sent a followup email with "QUITTING" in capital letters. This is standard marketing tactics with local DoJos in my area.

 

We moved to a different TKD school with one of the most reputed grandmasters in my area and they teach sparring twice a weak with close monitoring and there are no blows to the head at all and a senior instructor is always watching every sparring contact and they divide kids into age groups and subdivide based on size. Full gear is mandatory. They also allow kids to skip sparring class and attend the Forms and Technique classes which are held on other 4 days of the week. TKD is not violent - it is a martial art which teaches self-control. A good grand master in a DoJang affiliated to a national martial arts association would have good standards and procedures for sparring. And changing a martial arts school because it is not meeting your needs is not quitting - you are showing your child by example how to make positive changes when things are not going their way.

That is disgusting. I am sickened that businesses try to keep you by trying to manipulate you by name-calling. When it was clear that BabyBaby needed more focused training then her original gym could offer, she added a second style of martial arts with her instructors blessing! He even recognized her in his classes when she earned a belt in her other style!