Anyone watching Leah Remini's series about Scientology?

[gardenmom5]

Steve Hassan addresses this in that book I mentioned:  intelligent people are no less subject to mind-control techniques than less intelligent ones.  Being familiar with the techniques so that you can spot them helps, but honestly it's pretty scary how easy we humans are to manipulate!

 

the "bad sci-fi novel" wasn't an attempt to control - but was presented in a way to make it seem true to 'add to the mystery'.  honestly - basic questions of "does ___ person exist" are so easy to ask to verify something.  that was how I found out it was a bad sci-fi work in progress.  I put a name in - and the hits on this bad sci-fi story surprised me just how many there were.

 

our grandmother likely had npd/similar.   I started seeing things as hinkey when I was 13.  I now have a fairly developed ability to spot it.  my brother .. . has chewed me out for, basically, not worshiping her.  20 years AFTER she died.  but, he was her favorite, and I was the scapegoat.

I recall the day he was *** about his first ex-wife, and describing all the stuff she did to which he objected.  "oh, that sounds like grandmother."   I honestly think if he hadn't been driving at freeway speeds he would have acted on his initial reaction which seemed to have been to throttle me.  I am not exaggerating.

miscavge and his ilk (re: gothard.et.al.) are control-freaky narcissists at heart.

 

[Greta]

I don't think it has as much to do with what a group believes as it does with whether or not one can freely decide to leave the group. From that perspective, religious organizations could at times be considered cultish.

 

 

I decided that liking your post wasn't enough, I need to enthusiastically state my agreement!  I've heard some mainstream Christians try to label "outlier" Christians as cults because of a difference in core beliefs.  I don't think that's fair or useful.  But when you look at the tactics and techniques that groups use to recruit and retain members, that's where the distinction between a cult and a religion becomes clear.  Any group that tries to retain members by threatening some form of punishment for those who leave (often this takes the form of shunning, which can have severe psychological and emotional consequences - depression, addiction, even suicide - for those whose family and friends are still in the group) that isn't just a red flag indicating that you might be looking at a cult, that is a hundred waving red flags in flames.  

 

That's a behavior control technique, which falls under the umbrella of mind control.  Other forms of mind control include information control (I'm in this group, so I'm not allowed to read materials published by those other groups, and especially not anything written by someone who left my group!) and thought control (someone outside of the group presents information that confuses me and threatens my beliefs, so, as I've been taught to do, I repeat my deity's name over and over and over until I feel calm and centered again, which in turn "proves" deity's love and protection of me, and conveniently keeps me from processing the information I was presented with).  

 

It's very scary stuff.

[gardenmom5]

For me there are a couple of differences between Scientology and Christianity that takes on a cult flavour. One is that Scientology appears to have been deliberately and cynically created by a dude who thought religion would be a good money spinner. Although there are people that have used Christianity for that end it wasn't the original intention of the religion.

 

Secondly while abuse occurs in a Christian context it's disapproved of and generally people go to cover it up, hide it or whatever. It's not officially sanctioned it just isn't always adequately dealt with. Whereas it appears that in Scientology it is actually a part of the religion unless the stuff I read wasn't correct.

 

So yes, there can definitely be similarities but there are also some differences. At the end of the day the outcomes can be the same for people living it.

 

there are some christian sects /churches, where controlling abuse definitely happens  - and it is made to seem *normal*.  not at all hidden or covered up  and no, you can't leave. I've read a very long article of a woman who did.  to even question invites bullying and emotional and pyschological abuse in the name of "saving her" by the leaders - and shunning by the rest of the congregation.  (as in: she attempted to speak to her former friends, about normal stuff, and they'd turn their backs on her and walk away.)   ultimately, her husband threw her out of their home, divorced her, and left her with nothing. (she did somehow get custody of her children.)  her former church fully supported that.   what happend to this woman by her "ostensibly" christian ministers was very similar to what leah remini has reported happens with those who leave scientology.

 

think how the duggar kids would be treated by their "church" (and family) if they were to leave . . . .

I also recall one woman on this board who spoke with a young man who was studying to go into "the ministry".  he was doing it for the money.  his words (as she quoted them) were essentially "you don't think I believe this do you?"

[Greta]

the "bad sci-fi novel" wasn't an attempt to control - but was presented in a way to make it seem true to 'add to the mystery'.  honestly - basic questions of "does ___ person exist" are so easy to ask to verify something.  that was how I found out it was a bad sci-fi work in progress.  I put a name in - and the hits on this bad sci-fi story surprised me just how many there were.

 

our grandmother likely had npd/similar.   I started seeing things as hinkey when I was 13.  I now have a fairly developed ability to spot it.  my brother .. . has chewed me out for, basically, not worshiping her.  20 years AFTER she died.  but, he was her favorite, and I was the scapegoat.

I recall the day he was *** about his first ex-wife, and describing all the stuff she did to which he objected.  "oh, that sounds like grandmother."   I honestly think if he hadn't been driving at freeway speeds he would have acted on his initial reaction which seemed to have been to throttle me.  I am not exaggerating.

miscavge and his ilk (re: gothard.et.al.) are control-freaky narcissists at heart.

 

 

 

To be honest, I didn't fully understand the scenario with your brother, but I just wanted to comment generally that intelligence is (unfortunately) no protection in and of itself.  Thanks for the further details.

 

I remember you mentioning your scary grandmother in previous conversations, and :grouphug: wow, it really sounds rough.  Domestic abusers are sometimes like mini cult leaders, with their own spouse/partner and family members being the ones who are subject to their control.

[gardenmom5]

To be honest, I didn't fully understand the scenario with your brother, but I just wanted to comment generally that intelligence is (unfortunately) no protection in and of itself.  Thanks for the further details.

 

I remember you mentioning your scary grandmother in previous conversations, and :grouphug: wow, it really sounds rough.  Domestic abusers are sometimes like mini cult leaders, with their own spouse/partner and family members being the ones who are subject to their control.

 

no.  sadly, I remember when a local dr was murdered by her abusive boyfriend.  obviously an intelligent woman - who was being physically abused.

 

as rough as my grandmother was - I've come to really appreciate there are people who have "normal/healthy" families.  and I'm glad for them.   I recall watching a woman playing with her EX-dil's new baby.  she treated that little girl like her own granddaughter. (she still had a good relationship with her ex-dil.) I remember thinking - this is how it is *supposed* to be.  It warmed my heart.

[Ausmumof3]

there are some christian sects /churches, where controlling abuse definitely happens - and it is made to seem *normal*. not at all hidden or covered up and no, you can't leave. I've read a very long article of a woman who did. to even question invites bullying and emotional and pyschological abuse in the name of "saving her" by the leaders - and shunning by the rest of the congregation. (as in: she attempted to speak to her former friends, about normal stuff, and they'd turn their backs on her and walk away.) ultimately, her husband threw her out of their home, divorced her, and left her with nothing. (she did somehow get custody of her children.) her former church fully supported that. what happend to this woman by her "ostensibly" christian ministers was very similar to what leah remini has reported happens with those who leave scientology.

 

think how the duggar kids would be treated by their "church" (and family) if they were to leave . . . .

I also recall one woman on this board who spoke with a young man who was studying to go into "the ministry". he was doing it for the money. his words (as she quoted them) were essentially "you don't think I believe this do you?"

Yes I don't disagree. I just don't think in most cases it was the primary purpose of establishing the group in the same way it was with Scientology. For the individuals experiencing it of course the outcomes are just as bad.

[Greta]

Am I the only one who thinks there's a great big blurry arbitrary zone of what is a religion and what is a cult? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve Hassan has an excellent book describing the mind control techniques that cults use. I know there are groups out there that blur the lines, but there are some cult tactics which can be pretty clearly delineated. I highly recommend his book if it's a topic you're interested in.

 

 

 

Hornblower, I reread my reply to you, and I don't think it sounded the way I meant it to sound!  What I mean is that, yes, I think that there are cults out there which we have mislabeled as religions.  When I say "we" in this context, I'm thinking mostly of the US, because I'm not as familiar with how this works in other countries.  But I know that the law and the culture in the US tends to have a too-broad definition of freedom of religion, to the point where we sometimes tolerate human rights abuses in the name of that freedom (I'm thinking of teens being forced into marriage, children being denied life-saving medical treatments, things like that), and that is just wrong.

 

But I don't think that the distinction between a cult and a religion is an arbitrary one.  I think that the difference is knowable, even if we haven't been doing the best job of recognizing it.  And that's why I think Steven Hassan's work is so important.

 

So I hope that makes more sense than my first post.

[eternalsummer]

I decided that liking your post wasn't enough, I need to enthusiastically state my agreement!  I've heard some mainstream Christians try to label "outlier" Christians as cults because of a difference in core beliefs.  I don't think that's fair or useful.  But when you look at the tactics and techniques that groups use to recruit and retain members, that's where the distinction between a cult and a religion becomes clear.  Any group that tries to retain members by threatening some form of punishment for those who leave (often this takes the form of shunning, which can have severe psychological and emotional consequences - depression, addiction, even suicide - for those whose family and friends are still in the group) that isn't just a red flag indicating that you might be looking at a cult, that is a hundred waving red flags in flames.  

 

That's a behavior control technique, which falls under the umbrella of mind control.  Other forms of mind control include information control (I'm in this group, so I'm not allowed to read materials published by those other groups, and especially not anything written by someone who left my group!) and thought control (someone outside of the group presents information that confuses me and threatens my beliefs, so, as I've been taught to do, I repeat my deity's name over and over and over until I feel calm and centered again, which in turn "proves" deity's love and protection of me, and conveniently keeps me from processing the information I was presented with).  

 

It's very scary stuff.

 

 

We had Jehovah's Witnesses (I think) come to visit us at the same time as a set of Mormon missionaries.  The JWs would not exchange ideas at all - DH tried to give them a copy of I think the Tao Te Ching (or maybe the I Ching? Or something else entirely?  not sure) and they said they were only allowed to read approved religious tracts, definitely not those.

 

One of the Mormons (who were very very very nice girls, btw) had some sort of cancer. She said she was comforted by her faith, because being a member of the Mormon church meant she would be with her family after her and their death.  I can see the comfort in it from her end but my understanding is that if you leave the Mormon church, or are excommunicated or whatever, you won't be with your family in the afterlife, which is a threat of far more alienation than disconnection in this life (for people who still believe in some tenets of the religion but won't be part of the church for whatever reason).

 

I dunno, I just think many religions and other institutions use coercive techniques to keep people in line.

 

In Germany you can't read mein kampf.

[fraidycat]

I decided that liking your post wasn't enough, I need to enthusiastically state my agreement! I've heard some mainstream Christians try to label "outlier" Christians as cults because of a difference in core beliefs. I don't think that's fair or useful. But when you look at the tactics and techniques that groups use to recruit and retain members, that's where the distinction between a cult and a religion becomes clear. Any group that tries to retain members by threatening some form of punishment for those who leave (often this takes the form of shunning, which can have severe psychological and emotional consequences - depression, addiction, even suicide - for those whose family and friends are still in the group) that isn't just a red flag indicating that you might be looking at a cult, that is a hundred waving red flags in flames.

 

That's a behavior control technique, which falls under the umbrella of mind control. Other forms of mind control include information control (I'm in this group, so I'm not allowed to read materials published by those other groups, and especially not anything written by someone who left my group!) and thought control (someone outside of the group presents information that confuses me and threatens my beliefs, so, as I've been taught to do, I repeat my deity's name over and over and over until I feel calm and centered again, which in turn "proves" deity's love and protection of me, and conveniently keeps me from processing the information I was presented with).

 

It's very scary stuff.

Eternal damnation comes to mind...

[maize]

We had Jehovah's Witnesses (I think) come to visit us at the same time as a set of Mormon missionaries. The JWs would not exchange ideas at all - DH tried to give them a copy of I think the Tao Te Ching (or maybe the I Ching? Or something else entirely? not sure) and they said they were only allowed to read approved religious tracts, definitely not those.

 

One of the Mormons (who were very very very nice girls, btw) had some sort of cancer. She said she was comforted by her faith, because being a member of the Mormon church meant she would be with her family after her and their death. I can see the comfort in it from her end but my understanding is that if you leave the Mormon church, or are excommunicated or whatever, you won't be with your family in the afterlife, which is a threat of far more alienation than disconnection in this life (for people who still believe in some tenets of the religion but won't be part of the church for whatever reason).

 

I dunno, I just think many religions and other institutions use coercive techniques to keep people in line.

 

In Germany you can't read mein kampf.

My point of view is that I don't really care what some doctrine I don't believe says about what happens to me after death. I have evangelical Christian friends who are convinced that I am going to hell because I am Mormon. While I am sad that this makes them worry about me, it really doesn't impact me directly. Presumably if I were to leave the Mormon church it would be because I no longer believed the doctrine, therefor it wouldn't really matter to me what that doctrine had to say about my status in the afterlife. If I were ambivalent but chose to leave anyway I suppose I could take comfort in the Mormon doctrine that promises some form of heaven to nearly everyone.

 

The trouble with shunning is that it impacts a person regardless of whether they agree with the doctrine.

Edited December 24, 2016 by maize

[eternalsummer]

I think (though I am not Mormon, so I am not sure) that there are Mormons who believe sincerely in the tenets of the faith and the structure of the afterlife, etc. but for one reason or another have disconnected from the church itself and thus find themselves in the aforementioned difficult position.

 

I agree that it is different than what the Scientologists (and some Ultra-Orthodox Jews, and maybe to some extent the Orthodox?  not entirely sure) do, with the current life disconnection policy.

Edited December 24, 2016 by ananemone

[maize]

I think (though I am not Mormon, so I am not sure) that there are Mormons who believe sincerely in the tenets of the faith and the structure of the afterlife, etc. but for one reason or another have disconnected from the church itself and thus find themselves in the aforementioned difficult position.

 

I agree that it is different than what the Scientologists (and some Ultra-Orthodox Jews, and maybe to some extent the Orthodox? not entirely sure) do, with the current life disconnection policy.

I think any who leave the church but still believe parts of the doctrine most often believe that it is the church that has strayed from the truth therefor leaving will not have a negative impact on their standing before God.

 

If they leave the church or are excommunicated but still fully believe in the church authority and ordinances then it is entirely on their shoulders to return or not. Repentance and rebaptism do happen.

Edited December 24, 2016 by maize

[Greta]

We had Jehovah's Witnesses (I think) come to visit us at the same time as a set of Mormon missionaries.  The JWs would not exchange ideas at all - DH tried to give them a copy of I think the Tao Te Ching (or maybe the I Ching? Or something else entirely?  not sure) and they said they were only allowed to read approved religious tracts, definitely not those.

 

One of the Mormons (who were very very very nice girls, btw) had some sort of cancer. She said she was comforted by her faith, because being a member of the Mormon church meant she would be with her family after her and their death.  I can see the comfort in it from her end but my understanding is that if you leave the Mormon church, or are excommunicated or whatever, you won't be with your family in the afterlife, which is a threat of far more alienation than disconnection in this life (for people who still believe in some tenets of the religion but won't be part of the church for whatever reason).

 

I dunno, I just think many religions and other institutions use coercive techniques to keep people in line.

 

In Germany you can't read mein kampf.

 

 

I'm not as familiar with Mormons, but yes JW's are big on information control.  I started to list some of their information control techniques, but the list was getting ridiculously long.  But their extensive information control techniques, combined with their harsh shunning practices, combined with their policy of letting members die rather than receive blood transfusions, combined with their history of protecting pedophiles, yeah, I'd say it's more than enough to reasonably label them a cult.  (Full disclosure:  I was raised JW and I make no claim to being unbiased in my opinions of them.  But cult expert Steve Hassan considers them a cult too, so there's that.)

 

I agree that many religions and other institutions use coercive techniques, and I think that fact is very much worth talking about.  We should be pointing out these tactics for what they are, because they are rampant, and not just in religion but in corporations, in domestic violence situations, in human trafficking, in political groups....  

[Greta]

Eternal damnation comes to mind...

 

 

Yep, I think that religions built on fear rather than love are . . . problematic.

[Scarlett]

I'm not as familiar with Mormons, but yes JW's are big on information control. I started to list some of their information control techniques, but the list was getting ridiculously long. But their extensive information control techniques, combined with their harsh shunning practices, combined with their policy of letting members die rather than receive blood transfusions, combined with their history of protecting pedophiles, yeah, I'd say it's more than enough to reasonably label them a cult. (Full disclosure: I was raised JW and I make no claim to being unbiased in my opinions of them. But cult expert Steve Hassan considers them a cult too, so there's that.)

I agree that many religions and other institutions use coercive techniques, and I think that fact is very much worth talking about. We should be pointing out these tactics for what they are, because they are rampant, and not just in religion but in corporations, in domestic violence situations, in human trafficking, in political groups....

Thank you for the disclosure that you are biased. I was also raised JW and your experience is not mine. Not only was I raised JW but I am still practicing JW.

[Ausmumof3]

Thank you for the disclosure that you are biased. I was also raised JW and your experience is not mine. Not only was I raised JW but I am still practicing JW.

And this is what I mean by saying it's less about the groups written or stated practices and more about the implementation with the group of individuals. There are some belief sets that may lend themselves more to abuse but I believe that almost any institution can develop and very unhealthy dynamic in certain circumstances. Even workplaces and school groups are not immune despite all the fair work policies etc.

 

Someone in one place can have a healthy and positive experience with a group that is negative and destructive to someone else. Going back to Scientology, I think the celebrity experience is probably far different to the sea org type experience.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Ausmumof3

[Alicia64]

I read her book a couple months ago. It's some really scary stuff. I don't think I'll support anything Tom Cruise does again.

 

I'm watching it tonight. For the first time in years, I have WAY more compassion for Tom Cruise and the other celebrities -- if I understand what's happening correctly, they're victims of this severe brainwashing just as much as the "everyday" members are.

 

Alley

[gardenmom5]

I'm not as familiar with Mormons, but yes JW's are big on information control.

 

Mormons' do not do information control.  you will find individual members that will engage in such - but it is not sanctioned nor is does it follow church teachings.

 

formal  education is very much encouraged.  the next in line to be head of the church is a pioneer in open heart surgery - and has traveled the world lecturing on techniques he pioneered (some are still in use today) in addition to his church duties.

the father of another top leader was a physicist at  princeton with albert einstein.  he did encourage his son to also go into physics - until he learned "no dad, I do not think about physics in the shower".    which thing his father never had supposed - because he always thought about physics.

[gardenmom5]

I'm watching it tonight. For the first time in years, I have WAY more compassion for Tom Cruise and the other celebrities -- if I understand what's happening correctly, they're victims of this severe brainwashing just as much as the "everyday" members are.

 

Alley

 

more compassion for john travolta.  there have been rumors he'd like to get out - but they have too much blackmail material on him.

[eternalsummer]

Scarlett, are members of your congregation (is that the right word?) allowed to read religious texts outside of an approved list?  The missionaries that visited us (an older man and a young one) were pretty clear about not being allowed to read anything not approved, but I wonder if it was because they were missionaries, or if it is a congregation-by-congregation thing and not a religion-wide thing?  Or perhaps one of those rules that is officially a rule for people to fall back on when they don't have another polite way to refuse to read something they're not interested in, but not actually a widely practiced rule (or not rigorously practiced).

 

 

[shawthorne44]

according to this, no. Its status is just vague and unresolved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_status_by_country

 

I don't know. Scientology sounds crazy to me but you can find many absurdities in most religions.  Abuses too. 

 

I always thought that that years in existence was the only thing that mattered in the U.S.  Even though I find Scientology repulsive, I think that the U.S. government determining the validity of a religion is crossing over into establishing an official religion.  

 

I remember when the first Scientology Southpark episode came out.  Some friends were discussing it at lunch.  One of the gang, an intelligent, knowledgeable person asked about the background of Scientology.   We ended up just saying, "Watch the Southpark, they got it right."   I notice that one isn't replayed often or at all.  .  

Edited December 27, 2016 by shawthorne44

[Scarlett]

Scarlett, are members of your congregation (is that the right word?) allowed to read religious texts outside of an approved list?  The missionaries that visited us (an older man and a young one) were pretty clear about not being allowed to read anything not approved, but I wonder if it was because they were missionaries, or if it is a congregation-by-congregation thing and not a religion-wide thing?  Or perhaps one of those rules that is officially a rule for people to fall back on when they don't have another polite way to refuse to read something they're not interested in, but not actually a widely practiced rule (or not rigorously practiced).

 

 

Missionaries?   Are you sure they were JW?  And it is not true at all that there is some sort of approved list of reading materials.  

[Soror]

I'm not as familiar with Mormons, but yes JW's are big on information control.  I started to list some of their information control techniques, but the list was getting ridiculously long.  But their extensive information control techniques, combined with their harsh shunning practices, combined with their policy of letting members die rather than receive blood transfusions, combined with their history of protecting pedophiles, yeah, I'd say it's more than enough to reasonably label them a cult.  (Full disclosure:  I was raised JW and I make no claim to being unbiased in my opinions of them.  But cult expert Steve Hassan considers them a cult too, so there's that.)

 

Dh had a friend in HS who was/is? JW and he was shunned by his family when it was found out he was dating outside his religion. No discussion with him from his family at all, just straight to, I can't even see you, you don't exist, we'll talk to you again and treat you like a human when you confess to the elders and promise not to make said mistake again. That is certainly cultish behavior.

[gardenmom5]

Missionaries?   Are you sure they were JW?  And it is not true at all that there is some sort of approved list of reading materials.  

 

we've had JW missionaries here that had limits on what they could read.  they jumped at hearing that I was homeschooling.

 

yes, they were JW.

 

eta: it's possible they lied out of convenience about having limits on what they can read.  and the conversation they started pushing after they found out I homeschooled really squicked me out . . .

Edited December 27, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

dbpst

Edited December 27, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Scarlett]

we've had JW missionaries here that had limits on what they could read.  they jumped at hearing that I was homeschooling.

 

yes, they were JW.

 

eta: it's possible they lied out of convenience about having limits on what they can read.  and the conversation they started pushing after they found out I homeschooled really squicked me out . . .

 

 

Well, that makes zero sense to me.  A lot of JWs are homeschooled.  What conversation did they start pushing?  

[Scarlett]

Dh had a friend in HS who was/is? JW and he was shunned by his family when it was found out he was dating outside his religion. No discussion with him from his family at all, just straight to, I can't even see you, you don't exist, we'll talk to you again and treat you like a human when you confess to the elders and promise not to make said mistake again. That is certainly cultish behavior.

 

 

Again, no that is not how it works.  You may not have all the facts you think you do.  

[Soror]

Again, no that is not how it works.  You may not have all the facts you think you do.  

That is what the son told dh firsthand. He came home and his parents no longer acknowledged his existence until the church service when he was brought before the elders. Fwiw last dh heard he was still in the church and had moved higher up, so it wasn't spoken as some disgruntled ex-JW.

[Greta]

Thank you for the disclosure that you are biased. I was also raised JW and your experience is not mine. Not only was I raised JW but I am still practicing JW.

 

 

I try to be honest with myself and others about my biases.  It's far too important a question to be answered by any one person's experience, whether good or bad, whether that person is me or someone else.  It's a bigger issue of any given organization's policies and practices as a whole.

[Greta]

Mormons' do not do information control.  you will find individual members that will engage in such - but it is not sanctioned nor is does it follow church teachings.

 

formal  education is very much encouraged.  the next in line to be head of the church is a pioneer in open heart surgery - and has traveled the world lecturing on techniques he pioneered (some are still in use today) in addition to his church duties.

the father of another top leader was a physicist at  princeton with albert einstein.  he did encourage his son to also go into physics - until he learned "no dad, I do not think about physics in the shower".    which thing his father never had supposed - because he always thought about physics.

 

Thank you for this information!  

[gardenmom5]

Well, that makes zero sense to me.  A lot of JWs are homeschooled.  What conversation did they start pushing?  

 

they thought homeschool was great - they pushed very

specific materials and style.   I don't remember finer details - it's been at least five years.  I just remember being squicked by the materials they thought were so great - and everything else was evil.

[Soror]

The thing is about such groups when you keep certain things secret, for members only to know the ins and outs, all people know is what is put out there by former or non-compliant members. Dh had nothing against the boy, as I said they were friends, he thought he was nice, just that what his parents did was messed up. 

 

My cousin married into JW's but it is really unclear as to how strictly they practice. I remember it was a lot of hurt feelings at first at least because she wouldn't allow her parents to do celebrations and buy them gifts, which was only exacerbated by the fact that they seemed to pick and choose which beliefs to follow. 

 

Dh went to the local JW Kingdom Hall to get some of their materials for apologetics work, they were more than happy to share. It didn't progress very far of course when dh turned their questions around for them, he was well-versed in their common beliefs and tactics, he just wanted a book of theirs for reference. Not that he goes door to door or such but he likes to be informed of various religions. No complaints as to how they treated him however, even if we do disagree with their theology.

Edited December 27, 2016 by soror

[gardenmom5]

Thank you for this information!  

 

you might find interesting the church has a program called the "perpetual education fund".

it is for members in 2nd or 3rd world countries.  (because  members in first world countries have many more options for education/marketable skills.) 

the program will sponsor them in getting an education, then after they are working in a job they pay it back.  people also donate to the fund if they choose.  it's pretty self-sustaining. those funds are used to educate more members.   what field they chose is pretty much up to them  based upon their aptitudes and interests - and employment options.

it lifts many out of a cycle of perpetual poverty.

 

I recall reading a report (unrelated) about some founders of one micro-bank group.  they'd given some women a loan like 15? years before.  they were selling their wares out of a stall.  they went back and they were still selling their wares out of a stall.   these founders felt they'd failed - but upon further inspection - they increased their incomes, had educated their children and bought a refrigerator. they had grown their businesses - as well as educating their children which would all but guarantee the next generation a better life.

 

[Greta]

Dh had a friend in HS who was/is? JW and he was shunned by his family when it was found out he was dating outside his religion. No discussion with him from his family at all, just straight to, I can't even see you, you don't exist, we'll talk to you again and treat you like a human when you confess to the elders and promise not to make said mistake again. That is certainly cultish behavior.

 

It is indeed.  The problem is that the Elders of the local congregations are given an inordinate amount of power over their flock.  They can bring anyone they wish into a disciplinary hearing, for any reason they wish.  They can rip that person from their family and friends, and they do not have to provide a reason for doing so, and they are not held accountable in any way for their decisions.  There is no one higher up that reviews or "audits" those disciplinary hearings to make sure that they are fair.  Ostensibly, a disfellowshipped person can appeal, but the appeal process seems to be mostly an illusion.  I've never heard of any appeal resulting in a changed outcome.  (At least, this is the way things worked when I was in.  It's possible that it's changed, but I haven't heard of it.)

 

Members of the congregation are not told why the person was disfellowshipped.  And they're not allowed to ever speak to that person again.  So they are taking the Elders at their word when they say that only serious sins for which the person was unrepentant are grounds for being disfellowshipped.  I've known far too many people who were disfellowshipped for trivial reasons and never given a chance to repent to believe that anymore.  And there's an even darker flip side to this secrecy.  A disfellowshipped person can sometimes be reinstated.  There have been multiple lawsuits regarding people who were reinstated after being disfellowshipped for sexually assaulting a child.  The congregation wasn't told why they were disfellowshipped, so people didn't know that a sexual predator was being invited back in.  Didn't know until it was too late, that is.

 

My Dad doesn't attend JW meetings anymore, and he wants very much to go to a legitimate, mainstream Christian church.  But he's been told point blank by the Elders that if he does that, he will be disfellowshipped.  My Mom (still a devoted JW) would still be allowed to speak to him because they're married!  But the rest of her extended family would not.  And since my Dad was an only child and his parents and most of his extended family has passed away, they're basically the only family he has left.  So he's stuck.  68 year old man can't decide for himself where he wants to go on Sunday morning without fear of retribution.  Makes me livid.

[Charlie]

It is indeed.  The problem is that the Elders of the local congregations are given an inordinate amount of power over their flock.  They can bring anyone they wish into a disciplinary hearing, for any reason they wish.  They can rip that person from their family and friends, and they do not have to provide a reason for doing so, and they are not held accountable in any way for their decisions.  There is no one higher up that reviews or "audits" those disciplinary hearings to make sure that they are fair.  Ostensibly, a disfellowshipped person can appeal, but the appeal process seems to be mostly an illusion.  I've never heard of any appeal resulting in a changed outcome.  (At least, this is the way things worked when I was in.  It's possible that it's changed, but I haven't heard of it.)

 

Members of the congregation are not told why the person was disfellowshipped.  And they're not allowed to ever speak to that person again.  So they are taking the Elders at their word when they say that only serious sins for which the person was unrepentant are grounds for being disfellowshipped.  I've known far too many people who were disfellowshipped for trivial reasons and never given a chance to repent to believe that anymore.  And there's an even darker flip side to this secrecy.  A disfellowshipped person can sometimes be reinstated.  There have been multiple lawsuits regarding people who were reinstated after being disfellowshipped for sexually assaulting a child.  The congregation wasn't told why they were disfellowshipped, so people didn't know that a sexual predator was being invited back in.  Didn't know until it was too late, that is.

 

My Dad doesn't attend JW meetings anymore, and he wants very much to go to a legitimate, mainstream Christian church.  But he's been told point blank by the Elders that if he does that, he will be disfellowshipped.  My Mom (still a devoted JW) would still be allowed to speak to him because they're married!  But the rest of her extended family would not.  And since my Dad was an only child and his parents and most of his extended family has passed away, they're basically the only family he has left.  So he's stuck.  68 year old man can't decide for himself where he wants to go on Sunday morning without fear of retribution.  Makes me livid.

 

That's horrifying. So much for free will and freedom to worship in the way your heart desires.

 

[eternalsummer]

I am 97% certain they were JW but might have been Seventh Day Adventists?  Calling them missionaries might be the incorrect term - they went door to door talking to people about their religion, and DH expressed interest (we weren't interested in converting, just conversing, but I guess they had high hopes as they came back weekly for several months).  They were pretty serious about the end times (in the way they saw them), which DH also sees as a possibility from a non-religious POV, so I dunno, maybe that rings a bell?  Also they were not impressed with the idea of the Mormons (who visited us on a different day of the week); I am pretty sure they had a significantly different understanding of the afterlife than I expected (knowing very little about any kind of Christian) and didn't celebrate standard holidays.

 

They were polite but very closed off to talking about things on our terms, or reading anything other than the texts they brought with them.

 

The Mormons were similarly dedicated but more conciliatory about an exchange of ideas.  I have to say that they were better witnesses for their faith; we are not Mormon and were never going to be, but I got some really valuable insights and values from those two missionaries.  

 

That is almost certainly a function of individual variation, though- we just got a really great pair of missionaries from the Mormons.  

 

 

I think probably some experience in any religion is individual like that  - you can be part of a group or congregation that heavily demands adherence to all kinds of regulation or part of one that permits more variation.

[gardenmom5]

It is indeed.  The problem is that the Elders of the local congregations are given an inordinate amount of power over their flock.  They can bring anyone they wish into a disciplinary hearing, for any reason they wish.  They can rip that person from their family and friends, and they do not have to provide a reason for doing so, and they are not held accountable in any way for their decisions.  There is no one higher up that reviews or "audits" those disciplinary hearings to make sure that they are fair.  Ostensibly, a disfellowshipped person can appeal, but the appeal process seems to be mostly an illusion.  I've never heard of any appeal resulting in a changed outcome.  (At least, this is the way things worked when I was in.  It's possible that it's changed, but I haven't heard of it.)

 

Members of the congregation are not told why the person was disfellowshipped.  And they're not allowed to ever speak to that person again.  So they are taking the Elders at their word when they say that only serious sins for which the person was unrepentant are grounds for being disfellowshipped.  I've known far too many people who were disfellowshipped for trivial reasons and never given a chance to repent to believe that anymore.  And there's an even darker flip side to this secrecy.  A disfellowshipped person can sometimes be reinstated.  There have been multiple lawsuits regarding people who were reinstated after being disfellowshipped for sexually assaulting a child.  The congregation wasn't told why they were disfellowshipped, so people didn't know that a sexual predator was being invited back in.  Didn't know until it was too late, that is.

 

My Dad doesn't attend JW meetings anymore, and he wants very much to go to a legitimate, mainstream Christian church.  But he's been told point blank by the Elders that if he does that, he will be disfellowshipped.  My Mom (still a devoted JW) would still be allowed to speak to him because they're married!  But the rest of her extended family would not.  And since my Dad was an only child and his parents and most of his extended family has passed away, they're basically the only family he has left.  So he's stuck.  68 year old man can't decide for himself where he wants to go on Sunday morning without fear of retribution.  Makes me livid.

 

:grouphug:  I'm so sorry.

 

 

I can understand the elder's not telling other people (allowing the disfellowshipped member privacy if they so choose).  I don't understand banning anyone from talking to them. 

that's very coercive -

I would think showing forth an increase in love and embracing them so they want to come back would be much more effective.

 

eta: but I guess they're afraid they might corrupt impressionable minds . . . . I've read an account of a woman who left an evangelical community - and it was outright bullying and spiritual abuse on her way out the door.  along with making all of her friends shun her.  her husband divorced her and left her with nothing.

Edited December 27, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Greta]

you might find interesting the church has a program called the "perpetual education fund".

it is for members in 2nd or 3rd world countries.  (because  members in first world countries have many more options for education/marketable skills.) 

the program will sponsor them in getting an education, then after they are working in a job they pay it back.  people also donate to the fund if they choose.  it's pretty self-sustaining. those funds are used to educate more members.   what field they chose is pretty much up to them  based upon their aptitudes and interests - and employment options.

it lifts many out of a cycle of perpetual poverty.

 

 

 

That is really lovely!  I needed a smile.  Thank you.

[Greta]

 

I would think showing forth an increase in love and embracing them so they want to come back would be much more effective.

 

 

I would think so too!  Thank you for the hugs.   :001_smile:

[Greta]

 

I can understand the elder's not telling other people (allowing the disfellowshipped member privacy if they so choose).  

 

 

Oh, and I meant to say that you bring up a good point here.  Privacy is indeed very important, and it wouldn't be fair at all for them to announce to the whole congregation why someone was being punished.  I don't really know the answer, because I think the whole system needs an overhaul.

[Scarlett]

I don't have the time to address everything that is being said about JWs. If anyone is interested in what we believe they can visit our website JW.org.

 

It is absolutely NOT true that anyone can be brought into a disciplinary meeting for any reason.

 

And it is not true that a person gets disfellowshipped for dating outside the faith. They don't even get disfellowshiped for marrying outside the faith.

[FaithManor]

The Amish are a cult as well. Though they have a patina of kindness and gentleness, they are in fact very coercive and abusive.

 

Excommunication is total. Should a parent ever speak again to an excommunicated child, the parent is thrown out too. Shunnings, especially of young men, are often accompanied by a beating first. (Tough love as they think of it.)

 

Other practices:

Hitting and switching babies from birth to teach them not to cry which is viewed as sin. Not all parents do it but many do because babies and children crying in church is a really big no no with the Bishop.

 

Beating teens for questioning the faith. Tying them up in cellars for the same.

 

Under-educating children to make it more difficult to find employment outside the sect.

 

Significant restrictions on medical care particularly relating to prenatal and birth care.

 

Inbreeding. Shunning of outside marriage. Violations of state laws prohibiting first cousin marriage.

 

Restrictions on members filing police reports even for serious, felonious activities like rape.

 

Total information control including limiting English language instruction in the formative years to prevent "English" influence. Phone use restricted. No books except as approved by the Bishop. No internet. No radio.

 

No individual choice. Period. Clothes, house, furniture style, hair, everything 100% leader controlled.

 

And again, lots and lots of physical abuse and fear from birth up in order to create a fear controlled, docile, brain washed adult. Read stories of those that have gotten out, particularly of girls and women who have no basic human rights within the community.

 

And all of it pretty much with blanket seals of approval from state governments.

 

There have been young adults who ran away. Their stories are scary!

[Greta]

I don't have the time to address everything that is being said about JWs. If anyone is interested in what we believe they can visit our website JW.org.

 

It is absolutely NOT true that anyone can be brought into a disciplinary meeting for any reason.

 

And it is not true that a person gets disfellowshipped for dating outside the faith. They don't even get disfellowshiped for marrying outside the faith.

 

 

Yes, and I apologize if I was unclear about this.  It is definitely NOT official policy to disfellowship for dating or even marrying outside of the faith.  But I have no trouble believing that it has happened.  Some congregations are very laid back and loving.  And others are harsh, judgmental, and oppressive.  Sadly, there is no system in place to check the power of the harsh and oppressive Elders.  So abuses of power happen far too often.

[Greta]

The Amish are a cult as well. Though they have a patina of kindness and gentleness, they are in fact very coercive and abusive.

 

Excommunication is total. Should a parent ever speak again to an excommunicated child, the parent is thrown out too. Shunnings, especially of young men, are often accompanied by a beating first. (Tough love as they think of it.)

 

Other practices:

Hitting and switching babies from birth to teach them not to cry which is viewed as sin. Not all parents do it but many do because babies and children crying in church is a really big no no with the Bishop.

 

Beating teens for questioning the faith. Tying them up in cellars for the same.

 

Under-educating children to make it more difficult to find employment outside the sect.

 

Significant restrictions on medical care particularly relating to prenatal and birth care.

 

Inbreeding. Shunning of outside marriage. Violations of state laws prohibiting first cousin marriage.

 

Restrictions on members filing police reports even for serious, felonious activities like rape.

 

Total information control including limiting English language instruction in the formative years to prevent "English" influence. Phone use restricted. No books except as approved by the Bishop. No internet. No radio.

 

No individual choice. Period. Clothes, house, furniture style, hair, everything 100% leader controlled.

 

And again, lots and lots of physical abuse and fear from birth up in order to create a fear controlled, docile, brain washed adult. Read stories of those that have gotten out, particularly of girls and women who have no basic human rights within the community.

 

And all of it pretty much with blanket seals of approval from state governments.

 

There have been young adults who ran away. Their stories are scary!

 

 

Wow, I had no idea.  I don't know much about the Amish at all, I've always just thought of them as quaint, a little odd.  I had no clue their lives were like this.   :crying:

[Xahm]

Aren't there different branches of Amish? To your knowledge, are these abuses prevalent through them all?

The Amish are a cult as well. Though they have a patina of kindness and gentleness, they are in fact very coercive and abusive.

 

Excommunication is total. Should a parent ever speak again to an excommunicated child, the parent is thrown out too. Shunnings, especially of young men, are often accompanied by a beating first. (Tough love as they think of it.)

 

Other practices:

Hitting and switching babies from birth to teach them not to cry which is viewed as sin. Not all parents do it but many do because babies and children crying in church is a really big no no with the Bishop.

 

Beating teens for questioning the faith. Tying them up in cellars for the same.

 

Under-educating children to make it more difficult to find employment outside the sect.

 

Significant restrictions on medical care particularly relating to prenatal and birth care.

 

Inbreeding. Shunning of outside marriage. Violations of state laws prohibiting first cousin marriage.

 

Restrictions on members filing police reports even for serious, felonious activities like rape.

 

Total information control including limiting English language instruction in the formative years to prevent "English" influence. Phone use restricted. No books except as approved by the Bishop. No internet. No radio.

 

No individual choice. Period. Clothes, house, furniture style, hair, everything 100% leader controlled.

 

And again, lots and lots of physical abuse and fear from birth up in order to create a fear controlled, docile, brain washed adult. Read stories of those that have gotten out, particularly of girls and women who have no basic human rights within the community.

 

And all of it pretty much with blanket seals of approval from state governments.

 

There have been young adults who ran away. Their stories are scary!

[itsheresomewhere]

Aren't there different branches of Amish? To your knowledge, are these abuses prevalent through them all?

 

It can vary depending on the order and bishop. I deal with a few Amish families and some Mennonite families. The stories they have shared are interesting.

 

Unfortunately, the Amish are not known for their kindness to animals. Some of the degusting puppy mills that make the headlines are run by them.

Edited December 27, 2016 by itsheresomewhere

[FaithManor]

Aren't there different branches of Amish? To your knowledge, are these abuses prevalent through them all?

 

The level of physical abuse allowed can vary. Excommunication/total shunning is nearly universal and information control and undereducation especially of females is nearly universal across sects. Phone access as well though some sects will allow a phone that is put on a pole outside for business purposes to be used to call 911 in an emergency. But the local bishop does not allow this and in the past five years four children and three adults have died from readily treatable injuries due to lack of phone access.

[Xahm]

Very sad. Several friends of friends are Mennonite (the conservative kind), and I've been told that there are many in their congregation who left the Amish and have been shunned for doing so. They find the Mennonites far more accepting but with many of the beliefs they still value.

 

The level of physical abuse allowed can vary. Excommunication/total shunning is nearly universal and information control and undereducation especially of females is nearly universal across sects. Phone access as well though some sects will allow a phone that is put on a pole outside for business purposes to be used to call 911 in an emergency. But the local bishop does not allow this and in the past five years four children and three adults have died from readily treatable injuries due to lack of phone access.

[FaithManor]

The local Mennonite church has been very compassionate to the shunned and running teens. For the minors who have run, they have a policy of taking them in and helping them. It isn't easy because most were home birthed with no birth certificate, no social security number, no identity, math and reading skills only commensurate to about 6th grade because the Amish school only meets about 5-6 months per year and instruction in English begins late so fluency is an issue. Most have no experience with powered appliances, power tools, electronic devices, anything modern so they are nearly unemployable except for gardening and barn work. The girls cannot be hired for cooking or serving because they do not read English quickly, do not understand health codes, do not know how to operate a mixer, an eletric oven, a microwave, etc. It might not sound like a big deal, but the girls in particular have been raised to not work with unrelated males, to not make eye contact with men unless they have worked in a family business in which this was required, and so forth. You cannot just plug them into a McDonald's job or have them work with a licensed caterer. Many, many, many of the things our high schoolers know just drom living in the world these kids do not. It is very scary for them. The Mennonite Community offers them a more gentle transition than most communities can offer.

[Corraleno]

Article about the horrific, widespread, ongoing rape and incest in Old Order Mennonite colonies in Bolivia: The Ghost Rapes of Bolivia.
 
In addition to the horror of the rapes themselves, which were (are) carried out by men within the colony, the 130+ victims were denied access to any kind of counseling or therapy. Some of the youngest girls who were raped while drugged and unconscious have never even been told they were raped or given any explanation for the experience of awakening with torn pajamas, bloodstained sheets, and terrible pain between their legs.  "Why would they need counseling if they weren't even awake when it happened?" [said] Manitoba Colony Bishop Johan Neurdorf.
 
:crying:   :cursing: 
 

ETA: Not to imply that all, or even most, Mennonite groups are like this. In fact, when the situation was first reported, the more progressive Mennonite groups in the US and Canada were the ones offering assistance and counseling, but it was rejected by the men of the colony without even consulting the victims, who were discouraged from even talking about it with each other.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Corraleno