Things that make you wonder about people

[creekland]

That is standard and you should expect nothing less, especially in that situation where someone could have been seriously injured. Any restaurant (I hope!) would have comped your meal, apologized profusely, and probably given you a GC to come back. Yes, it was an accident, but it should not have happened. And the financial hit is not that great - next time take the offer. ;)

 

PS you are a dream customer and they are probably so happy you didn't threaten to sue or otherwise raise hell.

 

The waitress definitely apologized and I'm sure the manager would have too.

 

We eat there fairly often when in town, so I'm pretty sure this was a one time deal and not a regular occurrence.  If it happened more than once, then I could see getting a bit riled up (and/or switching restaurants).  If middle son had eaten it and gotten hurt, I'd have expected the restaurant to have covered any expenses.

 

Beyond that, we're not sue-happy, esp for accidents.  I get more miffed with bad service TBH.  I've debated not going back to where we ate lunch that day (another common spot for us) due to a server who really should not be working with the public in a tourist town.  The food was good (as it always is), so I'm on the fence I guess.  I wish we could get free comps for putting up with pure rudeness!  Once in a while I'll leave a bad review for rudeness at a restaurant.  I'd never think of doing so for a one time accident, unless they'd brushed it off or something I suppose.  (This type of accident hasn't happened to us before that I can remember, so I'm being hypothetical thinking of when I might put something like it in a review.)

[Guest2]

I have to shake my head at the couple in the OP 's coffee example. So integrity is only worth $4.95? Hopefully, they will get a little wiser.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Although $4.95 is a complete and utter shocking rip off.  Not that this is what the discussion is about.  What she did was wrong.  But damn I can't believe how expensive Starbucks is.

 

 

[poppy]

Oh I don't know, for a hand made drink that requires a machine you don't have and syrups you don't have  (praline)... $5 sounds about right. 

It's the $4 for black coffee that makes me go hmmmmmm.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I mean I get why they charge that.  They mostly sell flavored water.  That's not going to keep anyone in business unless they charge enough.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Last year at the local farmer's market there was a lady who was selling lemonade.  It was $5/cup.   It was very very hot and the kids really wanted it (they hardly ever drink anything but milk or water) so I got them each a cup.

 

After taking one sip, while still standing in front of the cart, my youngest, who was 4 at the time, dropped the cup (it was pretty big for his fingers, I guess).  He looked so upset and scared, so of course I was going to buy him another one.   The lady charged me $4 instead of $5.  I didn't say anything and paid it, since obviously it wasn't her fault at all.  But I never bought lemonade from her again. 

 

So, my long point is  - I think stores/restaurants might replace things as a gesture of "future good will" kind of thing.  At least it would be for me.  

 

I doubt she could afford to replace it for free.  Real lemonade is expensive to make, and she probably doesn't have enough traffic to cover giving anyone a free lemonade.  I wouldn't expect even a discount from a farmer's market vendor.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I doubt she could afford to replace it for free.  Real lemonade is expensive to make, and she probably doesn't have enough traffic to cover giving anyone a free lemonade.  I wouldn't expect even a discount from a farmer's market vendor.

 

True!  Lemons are SO EXPENSIVE.  I've paid as much as $2 a lemon.  I'm sure you can get them a little bit less in bulk, but yeah they are not cheap.

 

A larger operation like McDonald's or Starbucks can afford to eat the cost.

[creekland]

I doubt she could afford to replace it for free.  Real lemonade is expensive to make, and she probably doesn't have enough traffic to cover giving anyone a free lemonade.  I wouldn't expect even a discount from a farmer's market vendor.

 

Same here - same reasoning too.

 

We're friends with a couple that own a small shop in a tourist town.  It's always annoying when folks come in and spend a bit of time trying things on, taking pics, talking about how much they love it, etc, then leave without purchasing anything.  One knows they are going to purchase online where it's cheaper - they just needed to know fit (some even say this is what they are doing out loud!).  My friends have to pay for all the store upkeep (rent, electric, employees, stock, etc) and so many don't give a hoot.  They can save a few dollars online and have no problem "using" what they need that others pay for.

 

Soon the store is likely to be closing.  They truly can't compete with the internet.

 

I'm sure this is part of what has molded my mindset.  I want all to make a living and "free" really isn't.  Someone pays.  If my kid dropped something, it wasn't the owner's (or worker's) fault.  I don't think anyone purposely put the metal into the collards either.  I don't even think it was negligence ("it went somewhere - no clue where and don't care to look").  I think it really wasn't seen or known about.

[marbel]

Oh I don't know, for a hand made drink that requires a machine you don't have and syrups you don't have  (praline)... $5 sounds about right. 

It's the $4 for black coffee that makes me go hmmmmmm.

 

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Starbucks and I don't generally want to spend $5 on a coffee, but on the rare occasion I want a special drink, it's not like I can just whip one up at home. :-)    For some reason, I associate Christmas shopping with getting a "fancy" coffee at a mall, where I can look at the decorations.   I don't like shopping, and generally avoid the  mall, so it's kinda weird.  

 

But anyway, back on topic.  If I spilled it, I wouldn't expect or ask for a free replacement, and if they didn't offer a free replacement, I wouldn't think badly of the store.  Once I pay and the cup passes into my hand, it is mine and my responsibility.    (And even moreso for a small business that doesn't have deep pockets to be handing out freebies.)  I guess if they gave me a free replacement, I'd be inclined to leave an extra tip, if I had the cash on me (which is not always a given).

[Guest]

Same here - same reasoning too.

 

We're friends with a couple that own a small shop in a tourist town. It's always annoying when folks come in and spend a bit of time trying things on, taking pics, talking about how much they love it, etc, then leave without purchasing anything. One knows they are going to purchase online where it's cheaper - they just needed to know fit (some even say this is what they are doing out loud!). My friends have to pay for all the store upkeep (rent, electric, employees, stock, etc) and so many don't give a hoot. They can save a few dollars online and have no problem "using" what they need that others pay for.

 

Soon the store is likely to be closing. They truly can't compete with the internet.

.

I have done similar. I know the store likely doesnt stock my size, and I wont be in town long enough for a special order to get to the hotel room. I am looking at material quality and color, and if it works for me I will order and ship to home. Most times a tourist store wont do that, but it gives me a vendor name and if I search I can find a store online willing to sell my size. Bought a pair of shoes that way last week. Am I supposed to never enter a b&m store that refuses to stock my size? Really, I am tired of being marginalized so the store can maximize profits. If they are going to sell a particular line, they should stock all sizes or just post a big sign at the door saying what sizes they stock, and direct those who dont fit to not waste their time, since they wont be able to order and ship to home. Edited November 29, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[marbel]

Same here - same reasoning too.

 

We're friends with a couple that own a small shop in a tourist town.  It's always annoying when folks come in and spend a bit of time trying things on, taking pics, talking about how much they love it, etc, then leave without purchasing anything.  One knows they are going to purchase online where it's cheaper - they just needed to know fit (some even say this is what they are doing out loud!).  My friends have to pay for all the store upkeep (rent, electric, employees, stock, etc) and so many don't give a hoot.  They can save a few dollars online and have no problem "using" what they need that others pay for.

 

<snip>

 

 

When my kids were little, we shopped a lot from a book catalog that had a lot of books we didn't see anyplace else.  The books were all available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble, etc., but they weren't likely to be highlighted by them - not best-sellers, not well-known series books, small publishers, you get the picture.  

 

Every catalog had a letter from the owner of the company.  I still remember one letter, in which she told of people who wrote to her what a great "resource" her catalog was, and how they used it as a reference for buying books from Amazon.  I am not kidding!   I don't remember the details of what she said about it, I do remember that she was very eloquent and not scoldy, but she got her point across.  It just made sense to me that if I saw something in their catalog that I wanted to buy, I'd buy it from them, not go to Amazon to save a few dollars.  (I did often get the books from the library first, to see if they were keepers, since I've never had unlimited funds for books.)

 

Other small bookstores are struggling or have gone out of business because many people do the same thing.  The stores send out newsletters, feature books on facebook, etc., but then people go to Amazon to buy.   It's makes me pretty angry when people are proud of doing that. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Then again if you buy a lot of books it's hard to buy many if you are opting to pay much more for each one.  And in my experiences, the service was just not there.  Like Barns & Noble went out of business around here in most locations.  Their selection wasn't particularly good.  Their service was not good.  I've asked them about books and they'd just say they don't have it.  Wait, here I am willing to buy a book from you knowing I'll pay more and you won't even bother to order it for me?  Your loss.

 

 

[marbel]

I have done similar. I know the store likely doesnt stock my size, and I wont be in town long enough for a special order to get to the hotel room. I am looking at material quality and color, and if it works for me I will order and ship to home. Most times a tourist store wont do that, but it gives me a vendor name and if I search I can find a store online willing to sell my size. Bought a pair of shoes that way last week. Am I supposed to never enter a b&m store that refuses to stock my size? Really, I am tired of being marginalized so the store can maximize profits. If they are going to sell a particular line, they should stock all sizes or just post a big sign at the door saying what sizes they stock, and direct those who dont fit to not waste their time, since they wont be able to order and ship to home.

 

I don't think that is what she is talking about.   If you go into a store and find stuff you like but they don't have your size and can't order it for you, of course it would be fine to order it elsewhere.   It's the people who could buy it there, but don't because it's a little cheaper elsewhere, that she's talking about.    

 

Most likely those stores regret having to send potential customers elsewhere, but they can't necessarily stock every size.   

[poppy]

I have done similar. I know the store likely doesnt stock my size, and I wont be in town long enough for a special order to get to the hotel room. I am looking at material quality and color, and if it works for me I will order and ship to home. Most times a tourist store wont do that, but it gives me a vendor name and if I search I can find a store online willing to sell my size. Bought a pair of shoes that way last week. Am I supposed to never enter a b&m store that refuses to stock my size? Really, I am tired of being marginalized so the store can maximize profits. If they are going to sell a particular line, they should stock all sizes or just post a big sign at the door saying what sizes they stock, and direct those who dont fit to not waste their time, since they wont be able to order and ship to home.

 

Do you really believe there are stores that "refuse" to stock your size?

 

Do you know that every major online shoe seller will ship you shoes for free and allow for free return, so you can buy multiple pairs of the same shoe in different sizes to check for fit? Amazon, ShoeBuy, Zappos, shoes.com all work that way.

Edited November 29, 2016 by poppy

[Guest]

I don't think that is what she is talking about. If you go into a store and find stuff you like but they don't have your size and can't order it for you, of course it would be fine to order it elsewhere. It's the people who could buy it there, but don't because it's a little cheaper elsewhere, that she's talking about.

 

Most likely those stores regret having to send potential customers elsewhere, but they can't necessarily stock every size.

She is talking both..1. .the b&m experience where the customer likes the item, but price checks it in the aisle and goes elsewhere

And 2. The customer trying on and not buying.

I am talking scenario 2, with the reasoning that the owner likes to forget. I am a customer, but I dont have the most popular size, so they marginalize me by not stocking in order to max their profit. If I enter, yes I will try something on, knowing my size isnt stocked, and if it is, its a nasty color compared to what the popular sizes have available. I will even say I will order via internet if I like it. At certain stores, Boscov's and JCP being an example, I am a valued customer and the employees will tell me, unasked, that if my size or color choice isnt available in stock, they will order it and ship to store free. At smaller stores, the owners dont want to do that work...they would rather make more money via fewer high priced sales than put down their coffee and set up an order for the likes of me, selling a slightly higher volume with 10 min extra work per customer (order, receive etc).

I had a friend who went out of business this way...she only stocked the high end of the line in the most popular sizes, and wondered why people didnt buy from her instead of drive 45 min to the next store selling that line. That store didnt marginalize the majority of customers...they were a mom and pop too, but they would ship to store anything in the line, and they stocked lower priced parts of the line. Their store wasnt just for the rich and trim.

[Guest]

Do you really believe there are stores that "refuse" to stock your size?

 

Do you know that every major online shoe seller will ship you shoes for free and allow for free return, so you can buy multiple pairs of the same shoe in different sizes to check for fit? Amazon, ShoeBuy, Zappos, shoes.com all work that way.

No, I am fictionalizing my life experience because I have nothing better to do. If you shopped frequently, you know there are stores that refuse to stock certain sizes. Petites for example were removed from many major stores a few years ago...interesting considering that 1/3 of women are less than 5'3". Size 0 and 2 are so unpopular that when I was in college gals would buy the lowest size possible, take it apart, cut it down, and resew.

Look, if you believe stores should marginalize thats fine. If they post that at the entrance I wont come in, just like when the restaurant menu is posted in the window. In a tourist town, I am taking my chances, and my time is being wasted as well as the owners if I browse and get nothing out of it. At least looking helps me see what I will be ordering, and introduces me to products I didnt know existed.and you know, friends who do fit the offered sizing might just get a word of mouth referral...if I dont get a nasty look when I leave empty handed. Or should I charge for the free advertising?

Edited November 29, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[bethben]

Many years ago before dh and kids I was an attorney who advocated for persons with disabilities. Today, I have a child with disabilities. So, I fully understand the need you are getting at.

 

However, could it be that the placard was for the driver. Perhaps the driver was at the school to meet with a teacher or guidance. Or maybe the placard was for his dw who was substituting that day and he was picking her up. My local high school has 2400 students. There are many people who legitimately use the handicapped spaces who are not parents of students with disabilities. Also some people are issued placards have physical disabilities that are not immediately obvious.

I always assume there may be hidden disabilities. That's why I asked if this man intended to get out of his car. We have a real problem with people picking up their typical child using the handicapped parking spaces as a way to avoid long car lines. They will sit in their cars in the spots waiting for their typical children. We know because the special ed teachers have gotten after drivers for this very reason.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bluegoat]

Noone is saying there is any problem with ordering something online if the store doesn't have your size.  That isn't the point at all.

[creekland]

She is talking both..1. .the b&m experience where the customer likes the item, but price checks it in the aisle and goes elsewhere

And 2. The customer trying on and not buying.

I am talking scenario 2, with the reasoning that the owner likes to forget. I am a customer, but I dont have the most popular size, so they marginalize me by not stocking in order to max their profit. If I enter, yes I will try something on, knowing my size isnt stocked, and if it is, its a nasty color compared to what the popular sizes have available. I will even say I will order via internet if I like it. At certain stores, Boscov's and JCP being an example, I am a valued customer and the employees will tell me, unasked, that if my size or color choice isnt available in stock, they will order it and ship to store free. At smaller stores, the owners dont want to do that work...they would rather make more money via fewer high priced sales than put down their coffee and set up an order for the likes of me, selling a slightly higher volume with 10 min extra work per customer (order, receive etc).

I had a friend who went out of business this way...she only stocked the high end of the line in the most popular sizes, and wondered why people didnt buy from her instead of drive 45 min to the next store selling that line. That store didnt marginalize the majority of customers...they were a mom and pop too, but they would ship to store anything in the line, and they stocked lower priced parts of the line. Their store wasnt just for the rich and trim.

 

I am NOT talking about anything of the sort.  I'm talking about folks who come in, try things on (shoes/hats/etc), love it, it fits well, one would think it's a sale - then they take pics of it from various angles or of the box, etc, and then leave saying they can find it on the internet for less, so will "shop" there.  Some don't say it, but the profile is rather obvious - often they've been checking prices on their phones.

 

I'm talking about an owner that always takes time to talk with her visitors (unless getting the vibe they aren't interested) and who offers to order something in if someone wants (though many, being tourists, don't have the time).

 

I've never experienced the type of shop you're talking about TBH - esp if it's owner managed.

[SereneHome]

I doubt she could afford to replace it for free.  Real lemonade is expensive to make, and she probably doesn't have enough traffic to cover giving anyone a free lemonade.  I wouldn't expect even a discount from a farmer's market vendor.

 

Well, I can't speak of what she could afford but I know she wasn't putting more than 1-2 lemons per cup, if that.  I can get 10 lemons for 3.99 at BJ.  So, even if I add the price of the cup, she was still coming out way ahead.

 

But my point was, that sometimes it's simply good business practice to replace something for free, even if you take a small hit (which I don't think she would, but of course, I don't know for sure). 

 

I have 3 kids and a husband who thinks he is one - I would have been spending $20 /day on lemonade all through the summer.

 

And as I said - I wouldn't ask to replace a product in my scenario bc it was completely our fault.  But thinking from a business perspective, I understand why many businesses do.

 

Oh wait - here is another example.  I buy hand made lotions and shampoos from a lady in Canada.   She sold her business to another lady and I have continued to buy the product.  Last winter when my shampoo arrived, the bags and the box was soaked through.  I don't know if it's leaked or what.  So, I called the lady and I told her what happened.  I told her I can still use it bc there was plenty left so no worries, but I wanted to let her know that she might need to change how she packages items.  She refunded me half of the money.  Needless to say, I will not only be praising her products but the fact that she stands behind her product and provides excellent customer service. 

 

[SereneHome]

Same here - same reasoning too.

 

We're friends with a couple that own a small shop in a tourist town.  It's always annoying when folks come in and spend a bit of time trying things on, taking pics, talking about how much they love it, etc, then leave without purchasing anything.  One knows they are going to purchase online where it's cheaper - they just needed to know fit (some even say this is what they are doing out loud!).  My friends have to pay for all the store upkeep (rent, electric, employees, stock, etc) and so many don't give a hoot.  They can save a few dollars online and have no problem "using" what they need that others pay for.

 

Soon the store is likely to be closing.  They truly can't compete with the internet.

 

I'm sure this is part of what has molded my mindset.  I want all to make a living and "free" really isn't.  Someone pays.  If my kid dropped something, it wasn't the owner's (or worker's) fault.  I don't think anyone purposely put the metal into the collards either.  I don't even think it was negligence ("it went somewhere - no clue where and don't care to look").  I think it really wasn't seen or known about.

 

Not everyone can afford to pay higher prices for the same product. 

 

As  much as I don't like shopping, I really like little stores and would buy some things there once in awhile.  I like supporting local economy at home and when we travel.  But it's simply not practical to keep paying 10-20-30% more for the same product.

[creekland]

Not everyone can afford to pay higher prices for the same product. 

 

As  much as I don't like shopping, I really like little stores and would buy some things there once in awhile.  I like supporting local economy at home and when we travel.  But it's simply not practical to keep paying 10-20-30% more for the same product.

 

No problem with buying online - I think most of us do that for something or another.

 

But it takes a whole different person to go to a small shop, spend their employee's time, use their rent/electric/overhead costs (the reason they need to charge more) to get all the details needed (size, color, etc), and then buy where it's cheaper to save themselves a few bucks at the owner's expense.

 

Check out "stuff" at Walmart, then buy at Walmart.com?  No biggie at all.  It's a totally different situation.  

 

Check out "stuff" online and buy from the least expensive place is no biggie either.

 

It's checking out stuff in person from a small shop, then buying from an unrelated place with less overhead that is unethical IMO.

[SereneHome]

No problem with buying online - I think most of us do that for something or another.

 

But it takes a whole different person to go to a small shop, spend their employee's time, use their rent/electric/overhead costs (the reason they need to charge more) to get all the details needed (size, color, etc), and then buy where it's cheaper to save themselves a few bucks at the owner's expense.

 

Check out "stuff" at Walmart, then buy at Walmart.com?  No biggie at all.  It's a totally different situation.  

 

Check out "stuff" online and buy from the least expensive place is no biggie either.

 

It's checking out stuff in person from a small shop, then buying from an unrelated place with less overhead that is unethical IMO.

 

How so?  I am genuinely curious,  not trying to pick a fight or argue about it.

 

Would it be better or make a difference for you if the customer didn't even come into the store at all and simply went with on-line shopping right away?

 

Is going to B&N, finding some books that you like and then buying them cheaper on Amazon unethical?

 

 

I am very interested in learning people's views, opinions and perspectives on how morality and ethical behaviour is judged and followed.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

How so?  I am genuinely curious,  not trying to pick a fight or argue about it.

 

Would it be better or make a difference for you if the customer didn't even come into the store at all and simply went with on-line shopping right away?

 

Is going to B&N, finding some books that you like and then buying them cheaper on Amazon unethical?

 

 

I am very interested in learning people's views, opinions and perspectives on how morality and ethical behaviour is judged and followed.

I'm not Creekland but this is how I view the situation.

 

A small mom and pop store which stocks unique items (jewelry, clothing, what have you) pays to stock those items in the store. They have spent money up front to provide those items for sale/profit. They have faith that enough people will find value in the stock and choose to purchase it from them thereby allowing them to pay their bills, pay themselves, and order new stock.These stores are not catalogue outlets; they make nothing from the manufactures for showing their products to customers who will order off their website or from another vendor. If every customer went in to try on, check out, inspect, research quality, etc and never purchased a thing that mom and pop store would go out of business the first month. It's one thing to shop and compare and be a savvy consumer. It's quite another to take advantage of a small business to further one's knowledge about a product and then not compensate that business for their expertise or product availability. It also doesn't take into account that as each person tries on the item, handles it, or what have you, that item runs the risk of staining, damage, etc. How many times have you been in a store and looked at a woman's shirt or dress that has makeup on it? Those items cannot be sold at full price but must be reduced, often drastically. So, again, the mom and pop store takes a hit.

 

I have been left shaking my head as customers have stood at REI or Bass Pro or Cabellas and had lengthy discussions with sales people about equipment, trying things on, getting in and out of sleeping bags, trying on boots, etc,  monopolizing the sales staff as other customers wait around only to end the conversation with "Thanks so much, I can get this online."

 

If you already know you aren't going to spend the money at that store, then be honest up front or do your research online as well.

[creekland]

How so?  I am genuinely curious,  not trying to pick a fight or argue about it.

 

Would it be better or make a difference for you if the customer didn't even come into the store at all and simply went with on-line shopping right away?

 

Well, putting it another way, how would you like to do your job (correctly) for half an hour to an hour, putting your best effort into it whether you feel like it or not, being nice, fetching sizes, refolding, etc, only to see your paycheck go to someone else who did essentially no work?

 

On top of that, when you're the owner it's your money that's been invested in the store, stock, rent, and any employee's wages, etc.  

 

You did all the work to help these folks, and get nothing in return.  They liked what they saw, it fit, etc, but they want to save a few bucks at your expense.

 

Yes, it would be better if they didn't come in the store at all if they know they are only doing it to check on sizes, color, etc.  At least then they don't get the owner's hopes up that they might get a paycheck for all their effort.  Perhaps they can spend their time on a genuine customer instead.  Perhaps they can play on their phone if no one is there.  Who knows?  Both are better than getting hopes dashed when it's the correct item the buyer wanted.  

 

Few people enjoy working for free, much less putting tons of money into that job thinking they might earn a living from it.

 

Everyone makes their own decision regarding how big of a store is big enough to not worry about it.  I'll sometimes buy online from the same store if I shopped there (for that item), but not from a different one.

 

I don't shop at Amazon for things I've located in a B&M store.  I will shop there for things I can't find around here or don't need a B&M store for.

[teachermom2834]

The local dance shop won't even let you try on shoes unless you say you plan to buy them there. Too many people go in to get fitted for shoes and leave and order from a discount supplier online. I don't blame the store.

 

I wouldn't feel bad ordering a replacement pair online once I knew the correct size or trying on a friend's to get the right size. But if I go into a little independent shop to figure out what size dd wears I am going to buy the first pair there for sure.

[SereneHome]

Thanks for the reply Creekland and Scoutermom

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Another thing that irks my tatter (where did that saying come from anyway?) is this...I belong to several women only online backpacking and thru hiking groups. I can't believe how many times these women will discuss backpacks, sleeping pads, socks, any type of gear...the conversations go on at length ad nauseum. Of course, price is the main topic of conversation but the thread that runs through it all is "Go to your local supply store and try it on, try it out, etc then go to XXXX website and order it for this % off regular price. These ladies have detailed lists of places to go to save $5, $10, sometimes much more but all of the research is based on visiting local stores to get hands on experience with the product. Most of these items are not things you can find at the big name stores like Bass Pro or Cabelas but are labels that are specific to specialty stores.

 

I cringe at the posts where the women discuss spending hours at a store and then go home to place their orders, bragging about their savings. 

 

Yeah, I went to the city to the specialty outdoor store and tried on the boots I read about online. Yes, I could have saved about $30 by purchasing those boots online but the service I got from the store for my hard to fit wide feet was worth paying the extra $30. I actually ended up buying my backpack, some high quality wool hiking socks, etc from that store as well. That backpack...I got that for a bargain because the owner knew of my AT thru hike and called to tell me he had the pack I wanted but it was the previous year's color and model (no pockets on the waist strap) but he would sell it to me at a great price. So that $30 I spent on the boots was more than recooped by the $120 savings on my backpack. He also showed me some tricks and tips on thru hiking since he had already hiked the AT. That was priceless.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Scoutermom

[forty-two]

Would it be better or make a difference for you if the customer didn't even come into the store at all and simply went with on-line shopping right away?

 

Is going to B&N, finding some books that you like and then buying them cheaper on Amazon unethical?

 

Yes, it does make a difference to me when the customer skipped the b&m stores and went straight to online shopping, with all the pros (cheaper, wider selection) and all the cons (can be hard to judge from pictures and brief descriptions, without seeing it in person), or tried the b&m stores first but didn't find anything that worked and so turned to online shopping to find something *different* than what they looked at in person.

 

Because taking advantage of all the pros of b&m shopping (getting to see it in person, try it on, flip through the pages, etc) to overcome the cons of online shopping, but then ultimately purchasing online - you received genuine value from the b&M store (getting to see the items in person), but you didn't value it enough to compensate the b&m store for providing that service to you.  If you appreciate the benefit of being able to see an item in person before purchasing, then maybe you ought to be willing to pay for that benefit.

 

Because it's sad when local b&m stores go out of business when they provide a service people just don't want enough to pay for it, but it's rather tragic when b&m stores go out of business when they provide a service people *actually use* yet they still won't pay for it.  There are some parallels to theft there - taking offered value without paying for it.  I'm *shocked* that people just state outright to the b&m store workers that they are going to buy online - that they see no problem with taking up employees' time and effort and then openly telling them they are going to buy this exact same thing elsewhere.  To me that's something you say when the service was so totally abominable that they don't *deserve* getting the sale after what they did.  It's a slap in the face - so to do that to people who were genuinely helpful?  Exceptionally rude in my book.

 

I knit, and the "see in person, buy online" thing makes things really hard for independent yarn stores.  Knitters frequently point out that if you *like* being able to see yarn in person at your local store, then maybe you ought to *buy* it there, too, so the store can stay open and you can continue to have a place to see yarn in person.

[teachermom2834]

To me the difference in going straight to an online store and bypassing checking things out at the brick and mortar is that when I bypass the brick and mortar I am taking a chance on the first item not fitting or working and having to deal with a return, etc. So the discount the online retailer gives me comes with assuming the risk of buying sight unseen. Checking it out first at the brick and mortar makes me feel like I have passed on the risk without a cost.

 

All that said, I love online shopping and rarely go into a store. So I have no moral high ground as far as shopping locally. But when there is something I really need to check out in person I do buy where I was able to have that service.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

Is going to B&N, finding some books that you like and then buying them cheaper on Amazon unethical?

 

<snip>

 

I think it is.   If I am browsing and I find something there that I want to buy, I buy it there, because I wouldn't have known about the book if it hadn't been for them.  Sure, Amazon may carry it, and I could save a few bucks on it.  But Amazon didn't bring it to my attention.  They didn't have it on a shelf where I could peruse it.   B&N went to the expense of stocking the book.  Unfortunately, their selection has gotten smaller and they seem to be focusing on games and toys more, which is understandable.  But still; if I'm there and discover something they stock, sure I'll buy it from them. 

 

It's the same thing with smaller, independent bookstores; I know some people who work for one. They are in competition with Amazon - Amazon carries all the books this store does.  But Amazon doesn't send out an email newsletter with blurbs of the books, or highlight them on their facebook page or home page of the online store. Most people wouldn't know about those books if it wasn't for this small store.  And sure, it hurts them when people use their resources to explore and find new books, only to give their business to Amazon.  

 

Now I am a big Amazon shopper.  I do buy books from them sometimes, among (many) other things.  I also don't have an unlimited book budget.  But it's still worth it to me to support the stores that help me discover new books.  

[theelfqueen]

Here's the thing for me... I want to support the local game store or scrapbook store because I want them to be a resource for me and others... but sometimes their markup makes it ubtenable. I am willing to pay a premium for the convenience of b&m buying but I am not willing to pay exorbitant prices. If your price is 10-15% higher than online, I will probably just get it from you but if it's 30-40% higher ... sorry. That's not just a premium for service, it's too much for me.

 

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[creekland]

Here's the thing for me... I want to support the local game store or scrapbook store because I want them to be a resource for me and others... but sometimes their markup makes it ubtenable. I am willing to pay a premium for the convenience of b&m buying but I am not willing to pay exorbitant prices. If your price is 10-15% higher than online, I will probably just get it from you but if it's 30-40% higher ... sorry. That's not just a premium for service, it's too much for me.

 

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No one is saying one shouldn't buy online - esp if finances more or less require it.  

 

Those of us with my ethical line of thinking are saying don't "use" the store as a "hands on" resource if not planning on buying from there (if they have what you want - sometimes we all just window shop or don't find what we are looking for - those are different circumstances than using the store and then buying elsewhere - the latter is expecting them to provide their services for free).  Use other sources if it fits your budget better.

 

For most of us there's no sense test driving a Ferrari if we can only afford a Ford, so we don't make the Ferrari salesman work for free.  (That's not the best example since we're comparing Ford to Ford (or Ferrari to Ferrari), but it's similar enough I think.)

[MysteryJen]

For me, if the local small store is just too expensive, I don't go in. I do mostly buy online or in person at the Rack or thrift stores. However, if I value having interesting shops near by, I will pay a small premium. The size of that premium is going to be different for everyone.

[MotherGoose]

One of dh relatives opened a box of expensive cookies in the store to sample them and ate a couple. (Now I will open things, but only if I'm buying them! ) she decided to buy, but when they got home, realized that they came home with an unopened box Of cookies! She put the opened one back on the shelf! Her excuse was that the store charged too much anyway. 😳

[Bluegoat]

For me, if the local small store is just too expensive, I don't go in. I do mostly buy online or in person at the Rack or thrift stores. However, if I value having interesting shops near by, I will pay a small premium. The size of that premium is going to be different for everyone.

 

I sometimes window shop, but I try really hard not to take up anyone's time.

 

I cannot imagine getting help and trying things on and going to buy them elsewhere.

[creekland]

One of dh relatives opened a box of expensive cookies in the store to sample them and ate a couple. (Now I will open things, but only if I'm buying them! ) she decided to buy, but when they got home, realized that they came home with an unopened box Of cookies! She put the opened one back on the shelf! Her excuse was that the store charged too much anyway. 😳

 

That's as bad as the OP's example - if not worse should someone pick them up not realizing they were opened...

[MotherGoose]

That's as bad as the OP's example - if not worse should someone pick them up not realizing they were opened...

I know, dh was stunned, as was I! Such a sense of entitlement.

[Ausmumof3]

I don't think that is what she is talking about. If you go into a store and find stuff you like but they don't have your size and can't order it for you, of course it would be fine to order it elsewhere. It's the people who could buy it there, but don't because it's a little cheaper elsewhere, that she's talking about.

 

Most likely those stores regret having to send potential customers elsewhere, but they can't necessarily stock every size.

Or try on the product in a real store so they k or ot fits then order online cheaper...

[Ausmumof3]

How so? I am genuinely curious, not trying to pick a fight or argue about it.

 

Would it be better or make a difference for you if the customer didn't even come into the store at all and simply went with on-line shopping right away?

 

Is going to B&N, finding some books that you like and then buying them cheaper on Amazon unethical?

 

 

I am very interested in learning people's views, opinions and perspectives on how morality and ethical behaviour is judged and followed.

For me it's the intention that matters. If you went to the store to price check and discovered it was more expensive online that's one thing.

 

If you found what you wanted online and then went to the store to try on and check the physical appearance fully intending to order online, wasting their employees time, changing room space etc when you never intend to purchase from their store at all that's different.

 

I do understand you on the budget thing. I like to buy stuff that fits how I feel ethically but at times have to compromise because of time or money constraints.

[Ausmumof3]

I'm not Creekland but this is how I view the situation.

 

A small mom and pop store which stocks unique items (jewelry, clothing, what have you) pays to stock those items in the store. They have spent money up front to provide those items for sale/profit. They have faith that enough people will find value in the stock and choose to purchase it from them thereby allowing them to pay their bills, pay themselves, and order new stock.These stores are not catalogue outlets; they make nothing from the manufactures for showing their products to customers who will order off their website or from another vendor. If every customer went in to try on, check out, inspect, research quality, etc and never purchased a thing that mom and pop store would go out of business the first month. It's one thing to shop and compare and be a savvy consumer. It's quite another to take advantage of a small business to further one's knowledge about a product and then not compensate that business for their expertise or product availability. It also doesn't take into account that as each person tries on the item, handles it, or what have you, that item runs the risk of staining, damage, etc. How many times have you been in a store and looked at a woman's shirt or dress that has makeup on it? Those items cannot be sold at full price but must be reduced, often drastically. So, again, the mom and pop store takes a hit.

 

I have been left shaking my head as customers have stood at REI or Bass Pro or Cabellas and had lengthy discussions with sales people about equipment, trying things on, getting in and out of sleeping bags, trying on boots, etc, monopolizing the sales staff as other customers wait around only to end the conversation with "Thanks so much, I can get this online."

 

If you already know you aren't going to spend the money at that store, then be honest up front or do your research online as well.

Unless they were planning to use Cabelas online to order it?

[MotherGoose]

We have few to no mom and pops here. However, I do use targets return policy to buy things online, try them on, and return in person at the store--all from target and abiding by their policies.

Edited November 30, 2016 by MotherGoose

[SereneHome]

I don't think things are so black and white, the way some posters see it.  May be I am too naive, but I can not imagine a large % of shoppers finding a product on line, searching a local small store that sells it, goes to try it on and "waste" employee's time and then go back home and buy on line

 

I think most of the time someone might see something in the store, do a price check on their phone and then decide if they want to spend more at the store or buy cheaper on line. 

 

I don't like small stores and don't buy general merchandise there.  I might get something unique if I see it, but that's about it.  One of the reasons I don't like it is what so many of you describe - you go in, you might ask questions and then if you don't buy it - it's like OMG how dare you wasted the owner's time.  I also don't like that many small stores have very stringent return policies.

 

From a business perspective, I can not understand why any small store would want to compete with big stores or on-line businesses and have an inventory of products that would be so readily available somewhere else for less $.   It just doesn't make any sense.

 

BTW, many b&m places do price match to various on-line outlets so there is not even a need to go home and order it on-line, you just just pull up a price on your phone and they will match it.

 

 

[creekland]

I don't think things are so black and white, the way some posters see it.  May be I am too naive, but I can not imagine a large % of shoppers finding a product on line, searching a local small store that sells it, goes to try it on and "waste" employee's time and then go back home and buy on line

 

I think most of the time someone might see something in the store, do a price check on their phone and then decide if they want to spend more at the store or buy cheaper on line. 

 

I don't like small stores and don't buy general merchandise there.  I might get something unique if I see it, but that's about it.  One of the reasons I don't like it is what so many of you describe - you go in, you might ask questions and then if you don't buy it - it's like OMG how dare you wasted the owner's time.  I also don't like that many small stores have very stringent return policies.

 

From a business perspective, I can not understand why any small store would want to compete with big stores or on-line businesses and have an inventory of products that would be so readily available somewhere else for less $.   It just doesn't make any sense.

 

BTW, many b&m places do price match to various on-line outlets so there is not even a need to go home and order it on-line, you just just pull up a price on your phone and they will match it.

 

You might want to think it doesn't happen, but what Scoutermom described earlier in this thread:

 

"I can't believe how many times these women will discuss backpacks, sleeping pads, socks, any type of gear...the conversations go on at length ad nauseum. Of course, price is the main topic of conversation but the thread that runs through it all is "Go to your local supply store and try it on, try it out, etc then go to XXXX website and order it for this % off regular price. These ladies have detailed lists of places to go to save $5, $10, sometimes much more but all of the research is based on visiting local stores to get hands on experience with the product. Most of these items are not things you can find at the big name stores like Bass Pro or Cabelas but are labels that are specific to specialty stores."

 

IS what is happening at my friend's store.

 

No one has issues with you if you don't care for small stores.  We all have our preferences for various reasons.  I certainly don't have problems with people choosing to run a small business for a living.  Not everyone who enjoys retail needs to work for the big guys.  I love the service small stores provide.  Hers is more of a tourist shop in a tourist town but chances are the tourists can soon shop online instead as she can't afford to run the store at a loss.  She's talked about closing after Christmas.  We've talked often about "what's next."  She's not sure.  We've invited her to move to the Caribbean with us.  ;)  Where we'll end up, small shops abound!

[marbel]

I don't think things are so black and white, the way some posters see it.  May be I am too naive, but I can not imagine a large % of shoppers finding a product on line, searching a local small store that sells it, goes to try it on and "waste" employee's time and then go back home and buy on line

 

I think most of the time someone might see something in the store, do a price check on their phone and then decide if they want to spend more at the store or buy cheaper on line. 

 

I don't like small stores and don't buy general merchandise there.  I might get something unique if I see it, but that's about it.  One of the reasons I don't like it is what so many of you describe - you go in, you might ask questions and then if you don't buy it - it's like OMG how dare you wasted the owner's time.  I also don't like that many small stores have very stringent return policies.

 

From a business perspective, I can not understand why any small store would want to compete with big stores or on-line businesses and have an inventory of products that would be so readily available somewhere else for less $.   It just doesn't make any sense.

 

BTW, many b&m places do price match to various on-line outlets so there is not even a need to go home and order it on-line, you just just pull up a price on your phone and they will match it.

 

Maybe they believe they are adding value that a larger or online store can't provide. 

 

Here's another example of a small store providing good service/value.  I was having some problems that seemed to be related to the cheap, worn-out walking shoes I was wearing.  A friend recommended a store that specializes in waking and running shoes.  I resisted - I don't like spending a lot of money on shoes - but finally went.  The store clerk spent at least 30 minutes with me, watching me walk, asking me questions about the kind of pain I was having, what type of walking I do... then brought out several pairs of shoes for me to try.  She showed me how to properly lace them, watched me walk in each one... you get the picture.  I walked out in my new shoes.  Yes, they were cheaper online, but I wouldn't have known what to order if I'd gone online first.  And no online store could have given me the service that store did.   

 

I was the only customer in the store during that time.  I hope that was an unusually slow time.  I'd hate to see that store go out of business, because I'll want to go back when my shoes wear out.  

 

But in any case, you are probably not the kind of shopper we are talking about.  You are free to choose how you shop.  I also don't think it's a problem to go in and ask a few questions and not buy if they don't have what you want.  There are a lot of reasons people don't buy.   What people are objecting to is going in, taking up a lot of time, trying things on with no intention to buy (like the REI example above). There is a difference.  Shopkeepers know that not everyone who walks in is going to buy something.  

Edited December 1, 2016 by marbel

[SereneHome]

Maybe they believe they are adding value that a larger or online store can't provide. 

 

Here's another example of a small store providing good service/value.  I was having some problems that seemed to be related to the cheap, worn-out walking shoes I was wearing.  A friend recommended a store that specializes in waking and running shoes.  I resisted - I don't like spending a lot of money on shoes - but finally went.  The store clerk spent at least 30 minutes with me, watching me walk, asking me questions about the kind of pain I was having, what type of walking I do... then brought out several pairs of shoes for me to try.  She showed me how to properly lace them, watched me walk in each one... you get the picture.  I walked out in my new shoes.  Yes, they were cheaper online, but I wouldn't have known what to order if I'd gone online first.  And no online store could have given me the service that store did.   

 

I was the only customer in the store during that time.  I hope that was an unusually slow time.  I'd hate to see that store go out of business, because I'll want to go back when my shoes wear out.  

 

But in any case, you are probably not the kind of shopper we are talking about.  You are free to choose how you shop.  I also don't think it's a problem to go in and ask a few questions and not buy if they don't have what you want.  There are a lot of reasons people don't buy.   What people are objecting to is going in, taking up a lot of time, trying things on with no intention to buy (like the REI example above). There is a difference.  Shopkeepers know that not everyone who walks in is going to buy something.  

 

I don't know if it's my aversion to shopping and trying on things or my absolute faith in people or what - but I CAN NOT imagine doing that.   Finding an item on-line, finding a small store that sells it, going in, spending time there, going back home and ordering on-line sounds so exhausting and so bizarre to me, but what the heck do I know? LOL  If I already spent all that time trying things and asking questions, I just want to get the item and be done with it!

 

If I had a friend who owned a small store, I would advise them to have merchandise that is not readily available on line for much less price.

 

I remember going into a little toy shop while we were on vacation.  The lady had nice items and some of them that I've never seen before.  And then she had a whole shelving full of Bruder trucks that she was selling at full price.  If she were my friend, I would have told her not to stack that.

 

That being said, I don't even know if the yarn I buy at my yarn store can be purchased for cheaper on line bc I never looked.  I am fiercely loyal to that store.  So much so, that even after I moved 400 miles away, it's still the only store where I buy yarn.

 

[creekland]

If I had a friend who owned a small store, I would advise them to have merchandise that is not readily available on line for much less price.

 

Out of curiosity, do you know of anything (short of owner-made items) that are not available to be bought online?

 

IME one can find anything online from groceries to T-shirts (with logos) to high end products to sailboats.

[SereneHome]

Out of curiosity, do you know of anything (short of owner-made items) that are not available to be bought online?

 

IME one can find anything online from groceries to T-shirts (with logos) to high end products to sailboats.

 

As I said, I am not a shopper, and I didn't say "not available " on line - I said "not easily available" and at a much cheaper price.

 

I think it today's day and age running a small retail store is very very hard and requires a lot of work and a lot of research.  Expecting customers to pay more simply bc they stopped by and "wasted" the employee's time is not wise and is not realistic.  Accusing customers of bad morals and unethical behaviour bc they would prefer to find a better price somewhere else is not fair.

 

From what I've personally seen  - certain toys and books are about the same price on amazon as they were sold in small shops.  Personal care items are a huge item to sell locally.  Some decor items.  Some hobby items.   I don't know much about clothing as I haven't purchased any in the longest time, so I can't speak about that. 

[poppy]

No, I am fictionalizing my life experience because I have nothing better to do. If you shopped frequently, you know there are stores that refuse to stock certain sizes. Petites for example were removed from many major stores a few years ago...interesting considering that 1/3 of women are less than 5'3". Size 0 and 2 are so unpopular that when I was in college gals would buy the lowest size possible, take it apart, cut it down, and resew.

Look, if you believe stores should marginalize thats fine. If they post that at the entrance I wont come in, just like when the restaurant menu is posted in the window. In a tourist town, I am taking my chances, and my time is being wasted as well as the owners if I browse and get nothing out of it. At least looking helps me see what I will be ordering, and introduces me to products I didnt know existed.and you know, friends who do fit the offered sizing might just get a word of mouth referral...if I dont get a nasty look when I leave empty handed. Or should I charge for the free advertising?

'Marginalize' is a pretty strong term to throw around for what is victimless crime. Wait not actually a crime . It's just retail. It doesn't really matter if you browse in stores that don't carry your size or not but I wouldn't be mad at them for not carrying them. It's all online delivered to my door for free and they take it back for free too .

 

I don't find recreational shopping enjoyable though, even in stores that actually cater to me . Maybe I'm just missing some nuance here.

[happi duck]

Re internet vs mom and pop:

There was a thread fairly recently about a dance teacher telling the class to buy locally, show her the fit and then return the items and buy them online.

 

This does happen way too much, imo, and in the case of the dance teacher it is being taught as the thing to do.

 

Saving money has become such a "virtue" that, imo, people are cheating and being short-sighted in its pursuit.

 

To me, being frugal used to be about being wise with what you had, not about getting a deal at someone else's expense.