Vent: Homeschool Co-op Drama

[Chelli]

So we joined an awesome homeschool co-op only 15 minutes away compared to our 45 minute drive last year.

 

I am even teaching two writing classes using Writing and Rhetoric material and the kids are learning a lot. I'm coordinating the writing assignments for the 7th-12th grade class with the literature class so the kids are using the books they are reading for me to create the assignments.

 

Well, things got derailed two weeks ago when I was talking about using writing to deal with social problems. My example was Dickens and how he wanted to expose Victorian England's mistreatment of the poor, and how people of that time believed poor = lazy, sinner, crook, etc. I brought that into modern times about how people in the US tend to judge those who are on government assistance (food stamps, welfare, etc.) negatively. I explained how Florida passed a law requiring mandatory drug testing before you could receive benefits because they were so sure they would catch a lot of welfare recipients using drugs (aka being poor = drug addict) and how that didn't happen. One of my students then made a comment about a specific race and having children to keep more money rolling in. I couldn't let that slide so I kind of went off. Not in an angry way, but in a factual way. Said student kept being more upset (and the entire class was getting involved) so I finally stopped the conversation and suggested we just move on. I had to meet with the co-op director last week because a parent or two complained about my rant. I was asked by the director, in a very nice way, to tone down the social commentary because all the kids come from different backgrounds and their parents don't necessarily want their children exposed to some things.

 

This week we had class on Election Day and the kids were talking about the election. I was commenting how this has been such a difficult election for so many people to decide who to vote for myself included. One of the girls looked at me with a smirk and said, "You're not a Republican are you?" I told her that I really identified more as an independent because I didn't agree fully with either of the major parties. She grinned then and said, "Thought so."  :huh:  :001_rolleyes: I'm assuming this was all because of the welfare conversation the week before.

 

So today while out walking around the neighborhood with the kids, I get a call from the literature teacher at co-op. She's concerned because as the big writing project for the semester I assigned the kids to choose to write a fictional historical narrative set in either The Dust Bowl or school desegregation because the kids are currently reading To Kill a Mockingbird (which is set in the 30's and deals with racial injustice). Almost all of the children are choosing the desegregation option. The literature teacher is concerned because she's worried the white children (they are all white except for one minority child) will start to believe the "liberal narrative that white people are still guilty for these racial sins." At first I genuinely had no idea what she was getting at so I questioned a bit and apparently since the kids have already read Huckleberry Finn this year and are now reading To Kill a Mockingbird, she feels that my paper is just heaping more racial issues in their face. She said she worried about choosing two such racial books for the kids to read, but she is really just focusing on the goodness of some of the characters in TKAM instead of the racial tones. I was flabbergasted. Teaching TKAM without addressing the race issues in the book?!?  :eek:  :confused:  :mad:  Honestly by the end of the conversation I think she was feeling me out to see if I was some 'crazy liberal' indoctrinating the kids with 'BLM propaganda'(not bashing BLM at all. I agree with what they are doing bringing attention to a serious issue) through a writing assignment, because we shouldn't bring up too many racial things with the kids since that's not really a problem anymore and we don't want them to feel bad about it. 

 

I am so done with this co-op group. My dh wants me to quit at semester, but I made a commitment to teach the year so I will. I've never encountered people who are so afraid their snowflake will hear something that goes against their family values/beliefs that they shut down any and all discussion of anything controversial. Is this what most of you have found when dealing with conservative evangelical (which i would actually be classified as a member of a conservative evangelical religion) homeschool groups because this is a first for me and I'm just  :banghead: . I'm starting to think only secular homeschool groups for me from here on out.

 

Anyway, thanks for reading all of this. I really needed to get all of that off my chest!

[Guest]

Not all of the religious co ops are like that but a lot are, truthfully. It's one of the reasons I went with a secular co op, I found it wasn't quite as homogenous and the discussions were more nuanced, which I appreciated even as someone who would have fit in demographically in the local religious co ops.

[Carol in Cal.]

I was in a coop for a while, teaching a curriculum that had a lot of fanciful short stories, myths, legends, folk tales, nothing modern.  Then all the sudden BAM The Blue Shoe, which is modern and which has a specific African American context that I didn't think the kids were familiar with.  Basically this Black woman catches this Black kid from her neighborhood trying to rob her so he can buy himself some special shoes.  By the end of the story, he is repentant, and she buys him the shoes, which she can ill afford, because she has gained so much sympathy for him.

 

I addressed the other parents, and said that I wanted to take one lesson period extra to give some background to the story or else it wouldn't make any sense to the kids.  This was a familiar approach--several other times we arranged something that amplified the context of one of the passages.  We had to discuss it because it changed the homework schedule.

 

It was a secular group, mostly of parents who were more liberal than I actually, but wow.  They were dead set against this; one was upset that I might arouse sympathy for the kid even though he was stealing (hello, that was the point of the story, the actual point, dang it), another didn't want the kids to know that the characters were African American (there were no illustrations, but it was obvious to the adults from the language cues, but I didn't think the kids would catch that), another just didn't want to single the story out (hello, it was the only modern story in the book; so it was lacking the distance that enabled the kids to rise above other stories if they had, for instance, sexist elements).  It was so weird.

 

So I fell back on, OK, let's skip this one.  We can't discuss it without understanding this stuff about it, and if you don't want the kids to know that stuff, then let's skip it and move on.  That was a SIGNIFICANT compromise for me.  And everyone agreed.  Of course the kids read the story.  I'm the only parent who discussed it with mine. 

 

But months later one told me that she resented how I got my own way and they all just had to fall into line even though they were the majority.  Baloney, I thought.  I didn't get my own way at all.  I got steamrollered, and the kids missed out.  Very disappointing.

 

Coops are like that.  They bring out all kinds of things.

[redsquirrel]

Interesting  There is a lecture by SWB where she mentions that homeschool kids are often unwilling to push back at things said in class, they need to be challenged more, and encouraged to question adults.  It can stem from situations like this.. Being exposed to different ideas is such an important part of education.

 

And I lol'd at her desire to not address racial issues while reading TKAMB.  Isn't that the freaking POINT OF THE BOOK?

 

and the teenager questioning your party affiliation is pretty typical. Teenagers keep you on your toes, that is for sure.

[Carol in Cal.]

Actually, re the desegregation assignment, how would the kids know enough about that to write about it?  It's racial, sure, but it's not directly relevant to TKAM, and it's not 'current events'.  I liked Rafe Esquith's take on TKAM best of all the interpretations I've ever heard of it, about the levels of morality.  Great stuff, and it incorporates the racial stuff that is actually in that book.  Just a thought.

[Chelli]

Actually, re the desegregation assignment, how would the kids know enough about that to write about it?  It's racial, sure, but it's not directly relevant to TKAM, and it's not 'current events'.  I liked Rafe Esquith's take on TKAM best of all the interpretations I've ever heard of it, about the levels of morality.  Great stuff, and it incorporates the racial stuff that is actually in that book.  Just a thought.

 

Honestly my thought process for the assignment went something like this;

 

Man is accused of a crime he didn't commit in TKAM solely because of his race.

 

I wasn't going to open that can of worms with a ten foot pole (see previous posts), so I started thinking of a way to have the kids write about a historical time period when people were treated unfairly based upon race, specifically white versus AA like in TKAM (tons of options to choose from here). I wanted to make it something they might have an easier time understanding so I chose school desegregation because the people involved were the ages of most of my students so I thought it would be easier for them to relate to the feelings of the characters they decided to write in their short story. 

 

I did do historical research for them about the time period, Brown v. Board of Education, etc. and gave them a book and documentary list for further study as well. Plus we've had class discussions about it as well. 

 

There are absolutely much better topics related to TKAM, but the assignment in the Writing and Rhetoric book is a historical fictional narrative, so I was trying to align it with themes and setting in TKAM as much as I could however imperfectly.

[Artichoke]

Interesting  There is a lecture by SWB where she mentions that homeschool kids are often unwilling to push back at things said in class, they need to be challenged more, and encouraged to question adults.  It can stem from situations like this.. Being exposed to different ideas is such an important part of education.

 

And I lol'd at her desire to not address racial issues while reading TKAMB.  Isn't that the freaking POINT OF THE BOOK?

 

and the teenager questioning your party affiliation is pretty typical. Teenagers keep you on your toes, that is for sure.

 

 

No, the point of the book isn't racism, although it's one of the themes of the book.  The main point of the book is the innocence and purity of people and how it can be misunderstood, attacked, and sometimes destroyed. Atticus explains to us why  it's wrong to kill a mockingbird even though he's more than capable of doing it.  The incident of the rabid dog and the conversation during and after it tell us so much about Atticus' character.  The main mockingbirds of the story are Boo Radley, Scout, Tom Robinson, and even the young girl who accuses Tom of rape.   Imagine what Atticus could have done to these characters if he wasn't such a good man.   To only see racism as the theme of the book is leaving many gems buried.  

 

ETA:  I don't think you can study TKAM without exploring the racial and economic issues.  

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Artichoke

[Artichoke]

Actually, re the desegregation assignment, how would the kids know enough about that to write about it?  It's racial, sure, but it's not directly relevant to TKAM, and it's not 'current events'.  I liked Rafe Esquith's take on TKAM best of all the interpretations I've ever heard of it, about the levels of morality.  Great stuff, and it incorporates the racial stuff that is actually in that book.  Just a thought.

 

 

Do you have a link for this?  I really like Rafe Esquith and googling only gets me a short quote or others referring to his thoughts.. 

[Chelli]

Do you have a link for this?  I really like Rafe Esquith and googling only gets me a short quote or others referring to his thoughts.. 

 

I found this when searching. It's an excerpt from his book, Teach Like Your Hair's On Fire.

[Carol in Cal.]

That's part of it.  It's been a long time since I've read it, but I thought that he developed his ideas around TKAM a lot more than that essay showed.  I'll see if I can find my book and dig it up.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Quit.  They don't deserve you.

[heartlikealion]

Ok I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but it sounds like

 

The Literature teacher assigned both Huckleberry Finn and TKAMB this year. If this is a problem, shouldn't it be taken up with the Literature teacher? Oh wait, she's the one that called you Lol. So basically she created this problem. Did everyone finish the second book?

 

I don't think 7th graders and 12th graders should be in the same class necessarily. In general. How a high school English class is run vs. jr. high. I just don't know how easy that would be to do. Sounds like you're doing a great job, though.

 

I might want to hear from the parents rather than the Lit. teacher whether or not it's problematic to the masses that you continue as you are. If I thought I was going to get too much flack I might (sorry if this sounds wimpy) just say that we need to change the book (given your dilemma of following the writing program and perhaps wanting to honor what you feel is one of the biggest themes of the book. I would agree with that). Is there time to change the book?? That might be easier than some of the alternatives. I thought TKAMB was usually reserved for high school, anyway. And by that, I mean in public schools and no, we don't have to do everything like public schools but just might be easier to discuss with high school aged kids. Sorry if I'm not making sense. I think you'd hear less feedback from the parents if this was strictly an older set of students.

[mom2att]

Wow, that is so disappointing. It sounds like an amazing class that you have put a lot of thought and effort into. It's too bad that not all of the parents, kids, and even other teachers can appreciate the level of discourse that can be gained by hearing and considering points of view that may be different from their own. Not all co-ops are like this, even those that consider themselves conservative Christian. I'd love to have you as a teacher at ours.

[HomeAgain]

One of the current topics in our homeschool group is "sheltering our children until they can show discernment" which in practice means not exposing children to anything against the parents' ideological beliefs.

 

I miss our amazing co-op.  Every teacher was given free rein, but classes were decided upon ahead of time and syllabi laid out.  Parents could choose or not.  Frankly, none of us had the time nor inclination to micromanage another teacher.  I won't touch the co-op here with a 10 foot pole - their policies are weird and over the top.

[G5052]

For teens, right? As mine got older, we ran into this more and more. And frankly, I think it's a mistake for teens. Unless you have zero media and most stay home, they know. I've found that the more you allow them to wrestle with the issues on their own with you, the better communication you'll have.

 

if the co-op isn't supporting you, I'd back off. I teach paid classes, and thankfully it's a group that supports debate. As long as it is done logically and respectfully, all sides are encouraged. Talking about hard things is encouraged. Recently I've had to cut things off a few times and a few parents have called me, but I'm completely within my bounds. I teach for a Protestant organization, but have a wide range of students including Catholics, Orthodox, Mormon, and Muslim students. So not only the Evangelical crowd.

 

I will say that they encouraged us NOT to reveal who we planned and/or did vote for. If a student asked, I said that it was a private decision. I thought that was wise. It was just too polarizing.

[bettyandbob]

I didn't find co ops that great. I'd quit as soon as feasible. It doesn't sound like you have an agenda, other than having students think and back up their thoughts. It sounds like the co op has an agenda. 

[Artichoke]

That's part of it.  It's been a long time since I've read it, but I thought that he developed his ideas around TKAM a lot more than that essay showed.  I'll see if I can find my book and dig it up.

 

 

Thanks, but I'm going to the library today so I'll grab his book.  It's been a couple of years since I've read it.   I used to read Teach Like your Hair is on Fire  each summer for inspiration but got away from the habit.  

[zoobie]

Welcome to the Idiocracy. :(

[TranquilMind]

So we joined an awesome homeschool co-op only 15 minutes away compared to our 45 minute drive last year.

 

I am even teaching two writing classes using Writing and Rhetoric material and the kids are learning a lot. I'm coordinating the writing assignments for the 7th-12th grade class with the literature class so the kids are using the books they are reading for me to create the assignments.

 

Well, things got derailed two weeks ago when I was talking about using writing to deal with social problems. My example was Dickens and how he wanted to expose Victorian England's mistreatment of the poor, and how people of that time believed poor = lazy, sinner, crook, etc. I brought that into modern times about how people in the US tend to judge those who are on government assistance (food stamps, welfare, etc.) negatively. I explained how Florida passed a law requiring mandatory drug testing before you could receive benefits because they were so sure they would catch a lot of welfare recipients using drugs (aka being poor = drug addict) and how that didn't happen. One of my students then made a comment about a specific race and having children to keep more money rolling in. I couldn't let that slide so I kind of went off. Not in an angry way, but in a factual way. Said student kept being more upset (and the entire class was getting involved) so I finally stopped the conversation and suggested we just move on. I had to meet with the co-op director last week because a parent or two complained about my rant. I was asked by the director, in a very nice way, to tone down the social commentary because all the kids come from different backgrounds and their parents don't necessarily want their children exposed to some things.

 

This week we had class on Election Day and the kids were talking about the election. I was commenting how this has been such a difficult election for so many people to decide who to vote for myself included. One of the girls looked at me with a smirk and said, "You're not a Republican are you?" I told her that I really identified more as an independent because I didn't agree fully with either of the major parties. She grinned then and said, "Thought so."  :huh:  :001_rolleyes: I'm assuming this was all because of the welfare conversation the week before.

 

So today while out walking around the neighborhood with the kids, I get a call from the literature teacher at co-op. She's concerned because as the big writing project for the semester I assigned the kids to choose to write a fictional historical narrative set in either The Dust Bowl or school desegregation because the kids are currently reading To Kill a Mockingbird (which is set in the 30's and deals with racial injustice). Almost all of the children are choosing the desegregation option. The literature teacher is concerned because she's worried the white children (they are all white except for one minority child) will start to believe the "liberal narrative that white people are still guilty for these racial sins." At first I genuinely had no idea what she was getting at so I questioned a bit and apparently since the kids have already read Huckleberry Finn this year and are now reading To Kill a Mockingbird, she feels that my paper is just heaping more racial issues in their face. She said she worried about choosing two such racial books for the kids to read, but she is really just focusing on the goodness of some of the characters in TKAM instead of the racial tones. I was flabbergasted. Teaching TKAM without addressing the race issues in the book?!?  :eek:  :confused:  :mad:  Honestly by the end of the conversation I think she was feeling me out to see if I was some 'crazy liberal' indoctrinating the kids with 'BLM propaganda'(not bashing BLM at all. I agree with what they are doing bringing attention to a serious issue) through a writing assignment, because we shouldn't bring up too many racial things with the kids since that's not really a problem anymore and we don't want them to feel bad about it. 

 

I am so done with this co-op group. My dh wants me to quit at semester, but I made a commitment to teach the year so I will. I've never encountered people who are so afraid their snowflake will hear something that goes against their family values/beliefs that they shut down any and all discussion of anything controversial. Is this what most of you have found when dealing with conservative evangelical (which i would actually be classified as a member of a conservative evangelical religion) homeschool groups because this is a first for me and I'm just  :banghead: . I'm starting to think only secular homeschool groups for me from here on out.

 

Anyway, thanks for reading all of this. I really needed to get all of that off my chest!

 

Chelli, good for you!  Stick it out!   Co-ops need more exposure to various viewpoints, in my view.    So what if every parent or kid doesn't agree with you?  Who cares?   You are doing your job, especially if you invite interaction and debate. 

 

You will encounter parents like this in any group, not just Christian groups.  You will encounter them in public schools, for that matter. 

 

[TranquilMind]

One of the current topics in our homeschool group is "sheltering our children until they can show discernment" which in practice means not exposing children to anything against the parents' ideological beliefs.

 

I miss our amazing co-op.  Every teacher was given free rein, but classes were decided upon ahead of time and syllabi laid out.  Parents could choose or not.  Frankly, none of us had the time nor inclination to micromanage another teacher.  I won't touch the co-op here with a 10 foot pole - their policies are weird and over the top.

 

I think sheltering is good - for little kids.  For older ones, not so much. 

Besides, whatever you do, your kids will want the opposite. 

 

[Chelli]

Quit.  They don't deserve you.

 

:lol:  You sound like my dh. He was astounded that 1) people would be so close-minded and 2) I would put up with this cr@p for an unpaid, volunteer position.

 

Ok I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but it sounds like

 

The Literature teacher assigned both Huckleberry Finn and TKAMB this year. If this is a problem, shouldn't it be taken up with the Literature teacher? Oh wait, she's the one that called you Lol. So basically she created this problem. Did everyone finish the second book?

 

I don't think 7th graders and 12th graders should be in the same class necessarily. In general. How a high school English class is run vs. jr. high. I just don't know how easy that would be to do. Sounds like you're doing a great job, though.

 

I might want to hear from the parents rather than the Lit. teacher whether or not it's problematic to the masses that you continue as you are. If I thought I was going to get too much flack I might (sorry if this sounds wimpy) just say that we need to change the book (given your dilemma of following the writing program and perhaps wanting to honor what you feel is one of the biggest themes of the book. I would agree with that). Is there time to change the book?? That might be easier than some of the alternatives. I thought TKAMB was usually reserved for high school, anyway. And by that, I mean in public schools and no, we don't have to do everything like public schools but just might be easier to discuss with high school aged kids. Sorry if I'm not making sense. I think you'd hear less feedback from the parents if this was strictly an older set of students.

 

Nothing I can do about the book choice. The entire year long literature course was planned in the summer. They have been reading TKAMB for three weeks and will finish discussing it this coming Tuesday (our last co-op class of 2016). I tried desperately to get them to split the literature class into a jr. high and sr. high class, but they couldn't find someone willing to teach the class. 

 

I'm slowly coming to realize the the "literature" class is actually a let's promote the super conservative (alt-right) narrative about social events and debate (everyone agree with what the teacher's view is) it in class. My poor dd12 is so frustrated by everyone's close-mindedness in these debates that she wants to scream. It has led to great discussions at home though, and I'm proud of the free-thinking, compassionate person she's showing herself to be. She has also garnered a reputation as a fierce debater, and everyone is afraid to go against her.  :hurray:  :lol:

[heartlikealion]

:lol:  You sound like my dh. He was astounded that 1) people would be so close-minded and 2) I would put up with this [email protected]<script data-cfhash='f9e31' type="text/javascript">/* */</script> for an unpaid, volunteer position.

 

 

Nothing I can do about the book choice. The entire year long literature course was planned in the summer. They have been reading TKAMB for three weeks and will finish discussing it this coming Tuesday (our last co-op class of 2016). I tried desperately to get them to split the literature class into a jr. high and sr. high class, but they couldn't find someone willing to teach the class. 

 

I'm slowly coming to realize the the "literature" class is actually a let's promote the super conservative (alt-right) narrative about social events and debate (everyone agree with what the teacher's view is) it in class. My poor dd12 is so frustrated by everyone's close-mindedness in these debates that she wants to scream. It has led to great discussions at home though, and I'm proud of the free-thinking, compassionate person she's showing herself to be. She has also garnered a reputation as a fierce debater, and everyone is afraid to go against her.  :hurray:  :lol:

 

Good for your dd. Sorry you are in such a tough place. I think you'll have to decide what they will approve and whether or not you can stick it out under those expectations. If not, what happens? They lose the class or what? I believe in sticking things out that I have committed to, but if they're making your job impossible then I could understand bowing out as well. I don't know if you can all come to a compromise or not.

 

For what it's worth I was thinking about this thread today and how I would be happy to have my child in your class. I don't think that segregation is totally a thing of the past, as the private schools here were started as segregation schools and there are lingering signs of black vs. white. I am very saddened to say that dh heard a story of a student on campus say a really awful slur the other day to or in earshot of a group of students of another race. I couldn't believe it. At least the students know they can come to him with things like that. He said if it had happened in his presence he would have lectured and fined the student.

[EmilyGF]

So we joined an awesome homeschool co-op only 15 minutes away compared to our 45 minute drive last year.

 

I am even teaching two writing classes using Writing and Rhetoric material and the kids are learning a lot. I'm coordinating the writing assignments for the 7th-12th grade class with the literature class so the kids are using the books they are reading for me to create the assignments.

 

Well, things got derailed two weeks ago when I was talking about using writing to deal with social problems. My example was Dickens and how he wanted to expose Victorian England's mistreatment of the poor, and how people of that time believed poor = lazy, sinner, crook, etc. I brought that into modern times about how people in the US tend to judge those who are on government assistance (food stamps, welfare, etc.) negatively. I explained how Florida passed a law requiring mandatory drug testing before you could receive benefits because they were so sure they would catch a lot of welfare recipients using drugs (aka being poor = drug addict) and how that didn't happen. One of my students then made a comment about a specific race and having children to keep more money rolling in. I couldn't let that slide so I kind of went off. Not in an angry way, but in a factual way. Said student kept being more upset (and the entire class was getting involved) so I finally stopped the conversation and suggested we just move on. I had to meet with the co-op director last week because a parent or two complained about my rant. I was asked by the director, in a very nice way, to tone down the social commentary because all the kids come from different backgrounds and their parents don't necessarily want their children exposed to some things.

 

This week we had class on Election Day and the kids were talking about the election. I was commenting how this has been such a difficult election for so many people to decide who to vote for myself included. One of the girls looked at me with a smirk and said, "You're not a Republican are you?" I told her that I really identified more as an independent because I didn't agree fully with either of the major parties. She grinned then and said, "Thought so."  :huh:  :001_rolleyes: I'm assuming this was all because of the welfare conversation the week before.

 

So today while out walking around the neighborhood with the kids, I get a call from the literature teacher at co-op. She's concerned because as the big writing project for the semester I assigned the kids to choose to write a fictional historical narrative set in either The Dust Bowl or school desegregation because the kids are currently reading To Kill a Mockingbird (which is set in the 30's and deals with racial injustice). Almost all of the children are choosing the desegregation option. The literature teacher is concerned because she's worried the white children (they are all white except for one minority child) will start to believe the "liberal narrative that white people are still guilty for these racial sins." At first I genuinely had no idea what she was getting at so I questioned a bit and apparently since the kids have already read Huckleberry Finn this year and are now reading To Kill a Mockingbird, she feels that my paper is just heaping more racial issues in their face. She said she worried about choosing two such racial books for the kids to read, but she is really just focusing on the goodness of some of the characters in TKAM instead of the racial tones. I was flabbergasted. Teaching TKAM without addressing the race issues in the book?!?  :eek:  :confused:  :mad:  Honestly by the end of the conversation I think she was feeling me out to see if I was some 'crazy liberal' indoctrinating the kids with 'BLM propaganda'(not bashing BLM at all. I agree with what they are doing bringing attention to a serious issue) through a writing assignment, because we shouldn't bring up too many racial things with the kids since that's not really a problem anymore and we don't want them to feel bad about it. 

 

I am so done with this co-op group. My dh wants me to quit at semester, but I made a commitment to teach the year so I will. I've never encountered people who are so afraid their snowflake will hear something that goes against their family values/beliefs that they shut down any and all discussion of anything controversial. Is this what most of you have found when dealing with conservative evangelical (which i would actually be classified as a member of a conservative evangelical religion) homeschool groups because this is a first for me and I'm just  :banghead: . I'm starting to think only secular homeschool groups for me from here on out.

 

Anyway, thanks for reading all of this. I really needed to get all of that off my chest!

Are you able to just keep doing what you're doing? You're unpaid anyways; they can "fire" you if they don't like it and then you won't be placed in the position of quitting? 

 

It wouldn't be comfortable, but they can't make an unpaid volunteer change her curriculum, can they?

 

Keep up the fight! But I know this would be a really hard path to take.

 

Emily, who lives in a majority AA community and has been flabbergasted by some things she's seen with her new eyes

[TravelingChris]

I have taught in co-ops and never had this problem.  I did remove my daughter from a science class one year because not only was the class young earth which while I don't agree could have dealt with if it was a small part of the class.  But the teacher was telling kids that old earthers aren't Christian and we really had a problem with that.  (We are old earthers).  At another co-op I kept my kids from taking the apologetics class (not that either was clamoring for it) because we were from a different denomination and didn't want conflict.

 

Over here they read TKAM in middle school.  I don't see how you read that book and not discuss race.  I am a conservative and certainly taught my kids about the evils of mandatory segregation.  

[G5052]

Unpaid? I'd walk unless you feel like it's important for your own child.

 

Maybe I'm showing my middle-aged attitude, but I stopped engaging with homeschoolers like that some years ago. I got nowhere, and I learned to be very circumspect sharing anything about our homeschooling with those in our conservative circles. After getting roasted for things like taking my daughter to The Wizard of Oz, allowing my teens to read The Washington Post, and being slammed for not using all textbooks from <insert company here>, I gave up.

 

Of course I'm biased, but I see how balanced my teens (17 and 19) are after having a more diverse educational experience. We also have a very close relationship that I hope will continue as they mature. They really enjoyed reading both sides in this recent election, watching all of the debates, and looking at both sides. My oldest is at a secular college, living at home by choice. Of course he has encountered ideas contrary to what we believe, but he's also said that he felt very prepared for that and has shown that he "owns" what he believes. I've been very impressed with how he handles more liberal professors and classmates who have confronted him on various issues. He's very respectful and reasoned in his responses. 

[happi duck]

I hated our time in a homeschool group/co-op.

 

I was a public school teacher and in that paid position I was given more respect and gratitude than I ever received as a volunteer in a co-op.

 

Then I am ashamed when I look back at myself and see how I censored myself in order to not offend or make waves.

 

Hated it.

[redsquirrel]

No, the point of the book isn't racism, although it's one of the themes of the book.  The main point of the book is the innocence and purity of people and how it can be misunderstood, attacked, and sometimes destroyed. Atticus explains to us why  it's wrong to kill a mockingbird even though he's more than capable of doing it.  The incident of the rabid dog and the conversation during and after it tell us so much about Atticus' character.  The main mockingbirds of the story are Boo Radley, Scout, Tom Robinson, and even the young girl who accuses Tom of rape.   Imagine what Atticus could have done to these characters if he wasn't such a good man.   To only see racism as the theme of the book is leaving many gems buried.  

 

ETA:  I don't think you can study TKAM without exploring the racial and economic issues.  

 

Yeah, thanks for explaining that for me in as patronizing a manner as possible. :thumbup1:

 

[kroe1]

It was certainly not the reason I chose homeschooling, but elimination of competing ideals was a benefit that I discovered after we started. It was so nice to teach my kids only my ideals and why opposing ideals would not fit our family values. I think most parents end up being grateful for that opportunity. Therefore, as hard as it is for you, you may want to choose less controversial topics since you are catering to parents who want to teach values themselves. I would not take it personally. It is just what the parents or coop wants.

[Mimm]

It was certainly not the reason I chose homeschooling, but elimination of competing ideals was a benefit that I discovered after we started. It was so nice to teach my kids only my ideals and why opposing ideals would not fit our family values. I think most parents end up being grateful for that opportunity. Therefore, as hard as it is for you, you may want to choose less controversial topics since you are catering to parents who want to teach values themselves. I would not take it personally. It is just what the parents or coop wants.

 

:huh:

 

I was just going to comment that there are many homeschoolers in my area who explicitly state that they homeschool to shelter their kids from information and points of view that conflict with their own. Then this post happened.

 

I've always deliberately brought up alternative points of view, and argued against them if needed, so my kids have a thorough understanding of why we believe what we do. I do this even when they're pretty young, in an age appropriate way of course. I can't imagine how one studies history without doing this!

[HomeAgain]

It was certainly not the reason I chose homeschooling, but elimination of competing ideals was a benefit that I discovered after we started. It was so nice to teach my kids only my ideals and why opposing ideals would not fit our family values. I think most parents end up being grateful for that opportunity. Therefore, as hard as it is for you, you may want to choose less controversial topics since you are catering to parents who want to teach values themselves. I would not take it personally. It is just what the parents or coop wants.

 

I think you just illustrated why co-op is not a good fit for some.  In a co-operative environment, the people must give and take.

[Farrar]

It was certainly not the reason I chose homeschooling, but elimination of competing ideals was a benefit that I discovered after we started. It was so nice to teach my kids only my ideals and why opposing ideals would not fit our family values. I think most parents end up being grateful for that opportunity. Therefore, as hard as it is for you, you may want to choose less controversial topics since you are catering to parents who want to teach values themselves. I would not take it personally. It is just what the parents or coop wants.

 

This post just makes me deeply sad about homeschooling.

[kroe1]

This post just makes me deeply sad about homeschooling.

This is so hateful and mean spirited. Thank you for illustrating my point, however. There is no way I would want someone who posts so condescendingly teaching my children values. I would prefer they learn more accepting attitudes.

[maize]

I think you just illustrated why co-op is not a good fit for some. In a co-operative environment, the people must give and take.

Co-ops serve different purposes. If a group establishes a co-op with the intent of providing their children with a sheltered environment within which their shared values are reinforced...then give-and-take involving exploring different values is outside the appropriate scope of that co-op.

 

For my own children, I could see value in having some of each: a group that reinforced our family values, balanced by a separate more heterogeneous group that exposes them to a variety of viewpoints.

 

(we're not involved in any co-ops, I'm philosophizing; though I suppose we have something like this through involvement in a church that generally provides reinforcement plus various community activities that draw from a more diverse community)

[Farrar]

This is so hateful and mean spirited. Thank you for illustrating my point, however. There is no way I would want someone who posts so condescendingly teaching my children values. I would prefer they learn more accepting attitudes.

How can you teach accepting attitudes when your stated goal is to keep your children from hearing that other viewpoints exist? These two things are in conflict with each other.

 

Obviously you can and should raise your kids as you see fit - we all should. It just makes me sad when homeschooling is a means of keeping kids from learning how others see the world.

[Guest]

It was certainly not the reason I chose homeschooling, but elimination of competing ideals was a benefit that I discovered after we started. It was so nice to teach my kids only my ideals and why opposing ideals would not fit our family values. I think most parents end up being grateful for that opportunity. Therefore, as hard as it is for you, you may want to choose less controversial topics since you are catering to parents who want to teach values themselves. I would not take it personally. It is just what the parents or coop wants.

We are old earth evolutionists in a young earth creationist area. Some of the best discussions we've had have been after my kids were "taught" some YE nonesense (which seemed to come up a lot, ridiculous). I worry about what happens to the very isolated homeschoolers when they leave home.

 

Chelli, I wish you were a teacher at our co-op. But, sadly, you'd be in the same situation you are in now.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Moxie

[EmilyGF]

We are old earth evolutionists in a young earth creationist area. Some of the best discussions we've had have been after my kids were "taught" some YE nonesense (which seemed to come up a lot, ridiculous). I worry about what happens to the very isolated homeschoolers when they leave home.

 

Chelli, I wish you were a teacher at our co-op. But, sadly, you'd be in the same situation you are in now.

I don't just worry - I've seen it.

 

And I've also seen very healthy adults who were homeschooled. Most of them were not isolated. I tend to meet them while they do their PhDs.

Emily

[Guest]

Ow. Since when is TKAM controversial to 2016 people though?!

 

It's cause Scout wears pants, isn't it?

[heartlikealion]

I don't really see talking about segregation, for example, as "teaching opposing ideals." You are teaching that segregation existed and discussing how it affected people. So unless you just don't want your kids to know it existed or you're uncomfortable with the exercise where kids think about being in the shoes of a student that was segregated, I don't get the opposition.

 

This is what I'm trying to understand from Minniewannabe. Or maybe she was talking about something else entirely.

[Farrar]

I don't really see talking about segregation, for example, as "teaching opposing ideals." You are teaching that segregation existed and discussing how it affected people. So unless you just don't want your kids to know it existed or you're uncomfortable with the exercise where kids think about being in the shoes of a student that was segregated, I don't get the opposition.

 

This is what I'm trying to understand from Minniewannabe. Or maybe she was talking about something else entirely.

 

Sadly, the assignment about school desegregation probably is still controversial to many. It's still a hot button issue... which is why schools have mostly resegregated.

[heartlikealion]

Sadly, the assignment about school desegregation probably is still controversial to many. It's still a hot button issue... which is why schools have mostly resegregated.

 

What do you mean? In subtle ways or what?

 

[Farrar]

What do you mean? In subtle ways or what?

 

 

Bussing has ended nearly everywhere. Schools are segregated by neighborhood now, not law, but the effect is that the majority of American schools are pretty segregated. It's very controversial to fight it. This is a great two part TAL about it:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

 

ProPublica had a great piece about it a couple of years ago:

https://www.propublica.org/article/segregation-now-the-resegregation-of-americas-schools#intro

 

It's not really a secret.

[G5052]

I don't just worry - I've seen it.

 

And I've also seen very healthy adults who were homeschooled. Most of them were not isolated. I tend to meet them while they do their PhDs.

 

 

I could write paragraphs about what I've observed and also seen as a community college professor. Homeschooling is not about just curriculum. The general atmosphere of the home and attitude towards the world have a significant impact in adulthood. Classroom education is less prone to that, even at most Christian schools.

On the other hand, DH's current boss was homeschooled on the mission field, has her M.A., and is an completely balanced, delightful person. She's decades younger than him, but he's said over and over that she is one of the best bosses he's ever had. It's a diverse group that works for her with many different backgrounds and perspectives, but she's done beautifully with them. He's retiring soon, and she's the one aspect of his work that he's sad to leave.

 

There's nothing at all with homeschooling in general of course. But homeschooling in an insular way has far-reaching consequences.

[heartlikealion]

Bussing has ended nearly everywhere. Schools are segregated by neighborhood now, not law, but the effect is that the majority of American schools are pretty segregated. It's very controversial to fight it. This is a great two part TAL about it:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

 

ProPublica had a great piece about it a couple of years ago:

https://www.propublica.org/article/segregation-now-the-resegregation-of-americas-schools#intro

 

It's not really a secret.

 

Ahh, I see. I hadn't thought about it in those terms.

 

Wait, do you mean school buses in general or busing from further distances? Because I do realize that different neighborhoods are assigned to different public schools within the same city and I can see how that could create its own segregation. Just not sure if I follow you on the bus thing. I vaguely remember talking about busing issues in another thread.

Edited November 12, 2016 by heartlikealion

[zoobie]

Ahh, I see. I hadn't thought about it in those terms.

 

Wait, do you mean school buses in general or busing from further distances? Because I do realize that different neighborhoods are assigned to different public schools within the same city and I can see how that could create its own segregation. Just not sure if I follow you on the bus thing. I vaguely remember talking about busing issues in another thread.

Mandatory busing across counties under federal court orders to desegregate schools. I'm sure this is still a hot button issue in Mississippi. Not basic yellow school bus riding to one's community schools.

[Carol in Cal.]

How can you teach accepting attitudes when your stated goal is to keep your children from hearing that other viewpoints exist? These two things are in conflict with each other.

 

Obviously you can and should raise your kids as you see fit - we all should. It just makes me sad when homeschooling is a means of keeping kids from learning how others see the world.

1.  Her stated goal was not to keep children from hearing that other viewpoints exist, but rather to teach her own values AND other values, and why the other ones don't fit with her family.  Your characterization of her is inaccurate.

 

2.  Her concern with you was the condescending attitude, specifically; and I wouldn't want a teacher for my kids that taught them to disrespect their parents, either.

 

Ironically, I'm far more in agreement with you than with her about the underlying issue.  In fact, I assigned TKAM to discuss in a literature coop for 5th-7th graders.  But condescension is extremely ugly, and not an effective method of argumentation either.

[Farrar]

1.  Her stated goal was not to keep children from hearing that other viewpoints exist, but rather to teach her own values AND other values, and why the other ones don't fit with her family.  Your characterization of her is inaccurate.

 

2.  Her concern with you was the condescending attitude, specifically; and I wouldn't want a teacher for my kids that taught them to disrespect their parents, either.

 

Ironically, I'm far more in agreement with you than with her about the underlying issue.  In fact, I assigned TKAM to discuss in a literature coop for 5th-7th graders.  But condescension is extremely ugly, and not an effective method of argumentation either.

 

She said she wanted to keep others from presenting those viewpoints so she could do it. Which... is still saying she doesn't want others to present divergent views.

 

I'm just being honest when I say that makes me sad. If she really believes that's the best way, have at it. I think it's misguided and is one of the biggest downsides of homeschooling - the ability to keep your kids from hearing from a variety of people and learning about their views. I don't feel bad about saying so. If you take it as that hurtful that I disagree, I think that actually says a lot too.

[Carol in Cal.]

The very best treatments of forced bussing in print that I have seen are:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Common-Ground-Turbulent-American-Families/dp/0394746163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478978123&sr=8-1&keywords=common+ground

 

https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Dont-Cry-Searing-Integrate/dp/1416948821/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1478978293&sr=1-1&keywords=warriors+don%27t+cry

 

The first is a Pulitzer prize winning massive documentary book about the forced bussing sage in Boston.  It is fantastically well-written, not dry at all.  The second is an excellent memoir by one of the Little Rock Nine. 

[Carol in Cal.]

She said she wanted to keep others from presenting those viewpoints so she could do it. Which... is still saying she doesn't want others to present divergent views.

 

I'm just being honest when I say that makes me sad. If she really believes that's the best way, have at it. I think it's misguided and is one of the biggest downsides of homeschooling - the ability to keep your kids from hearing from a variety of people and learning about their views. I don't feel bad about saying so. If you take it as that hurtful that I disagree, I think that actually says a lot too.

Please read her OP again.  She wants to present those views herself, is the point.  Not that she wants to hide them from her kids as you originally suggested.  That is a major reason why a lot of people want to homeschool, on all sides every pretty much every debate around.  

 

Also, I didn't say I thought it was hurtful.  I thought it reflected a disrespectful attitude that is unlikely, unfortunately, to be effective.  But if all you want to do is vent, have at it.

[Aura]

Ow. Since when is TKAM controversial to 2016 people though?!

 

It's cause Scout wears pants, isn't it?

:smilielol5:  :smilielol5:  :smilielol5:

[heartlikealion]

1.  Her stated goal was not to keep children from hearing that other viewpoints exist, but rather to teach her own values AND other values, and why the other ones don't fit with her family.  Your characterization of her is inaccurate.

 

2.  Her concern with you was the condescending attitude, specifically; and I wouldn't want a teacher for my kids that taught them to disrespect their parents, either.

 

Ironically, I'm far more in agreement with you than with her about the underlying issue.  In fact, I assigned TKAM to discuss in a literature coop for 5th-7th graders.  But condescension is extremely ugly, and not an effective method of argumentation either.

 

I read the posts here a couple times and I think they are confusing. Only Minniewannabe could probably clear this up. She used the word "only" which is what made it sound like not teaching other views at all. But then she also went on to say teaching why other ideals don't fit in their family. So it sounds like she's introducing other views. The whole post confused me, personally. Perhaps Farrar and I had the same confusion.

 

I can see how Farrar's posts may have sounded harsh as in, "that's what's wrong with some homeschoolers" and thus, ugly or condescending. I don't think Farrar saw it that way, though.

Edited November 12, 2016 by heartlikealion