Oh boy...cheating..what to do now...

[suzziesnowflake]

Long story short. My ds cheated for about 4 months on his algebra 1 assignments and tests. My husband and I have punished him of course, however, this changes everything for his sophomore year. I gave him tests to find out at what point he decided to cheat. I am finding that he doesn't understand most of it. After all he hasn't done math in about 4 months. I don't know how to approach this. Do I make him take the class all over (this will look wonderful on his transcript:()? Do I start from the beginning now and hope we can get through it at lightening speed and get to geometry? I am unsure what to do. He was using TT. There is no way to cheat unless you have the answer key. He was allowed to work his problems out on a white board not on paper. He is also a night owl so I allowed him to work at night. (Lesson learned by me) Never again. 

[maize]

Work with him through the summer to redo Algebra 1 and double up on math in the fall to finish if you want him to start geometry (or start as soon as Algebra 1 is finished).

 

The temptation to cheat can be huge for a kid who is left to work on their own in a subject that doesn't interest or is challenging for them. It's a setup for failure, as you now know.

[Ethel Mertz]

Work with him through the summer to redo Algebra 1 and double up on math in the fall to finish if you want him to start geometry (or start as soon as Algebra 1 is finished).

 

The temptation to cheat can be huge for a kid who is left to work on their own in a subject that doesn't interest or is challenging for them. It's a setup for failure, as you now know.

 

I agree. Tell him this has long range consequences and one of those consequences is working through this summer on Algebra I and possibly having to work through next summer on Geometry in order to get caught up. You could still put Algebra I for his 9th grade year (so there isn't a gap in his transcript), as he can double up on Algebra throughout the rest of the summer and into the fall. Then start Geometry and double up on that for as long as you have to do so.

[Corraleno]

I'd have him redo Algebra 1, starting today. One lesson per day, 7 days/wk, should have him finishing in November. If he doubles up on some of the early lessons, he could finish sooner. Then he can start Geometry, and can choose whether to double up on lessons, work on weekends, or work into next summer to complete it and get back on track.

 

I'd not only make sure to supervise his work, but make sure he has help if he's not understanding something. The fact that TT doesn't require the parent to teach or grade it doesn't mean a parent isn't needed sometimes to help explain things. If he's really struggling to understand the material, I'd consider a tutor.

[chiguirre]

This happened to an irl friend of mine, so you're not alone OP. She had her son start over with a different program but he's still behind heading into his junior year because it turns out that algebra is really hard for him. If this is your ds's case, I'd start over and sit with him while he works and answer any questions he has. If you find he's still lost after a month or so, I'd hire a tutor.

 

:grouphug:

Edited July 16, 2016 by chiguirre

[FriedClams]

I'd switch programs and he'd do algebra every day, in pencil, in a notebook, and have it graded by me every morning before he did anything else. I'd have him start at 7 am, at the kitchen table. No answer keys around, no skipping problems, no self check ever. Every day. If it were review stuff, two lessons a day. And he'd do that until we were back on track (so likely more than a year). And, for me, no lectures. Just "here's the consequence". That part would be really hard for me but with a 13 year old dude in my life, I think it works better with fewer words.

Edited July 16, 2016 by FriedClams

[DebbS]

What you've got here is a great teaching moment. He needs natural consequences - that is consequences that are based on fixing the situation that he caused. Unrelated punishments such as grounding aren't the same thing.

 

So, IMO, he needs to start Algebra I from the point that he began cheating and he needs to start it now on an accelerated schedule because in order to fix this, he has to make up the time that he wasted by cheating. If starting there is difficult, he may have to do a review of the pre-cheating material first.  If the original goal was to finish geometry by the end of next year, then that's what he should do even if it means having to sacrifice fun activities in order to do math. The consequences here are just not fixable in a short time frame. It may take the entire year.

 

Consider yourself fortunate that he has made this mistake before the stakes are really, really high such as in college or the workplace, in marriage, etc.  I know that's a difficult attitude to have at this time, but being a mom with a grown son, in hindsight I can see the many blessings that came from my son making some bad decisions while he was still under our watch and we could take corrective action.  Boys, btw, at that age, tend to make some pretty bad decisions!

 

I wouldn't worry so much about his highschool transcript. Both of my kids did a 1/2 credit of math one year and then finished the other 1/2 credit in the summer. It didn't cause any problems with college admissions.

Edited July 16, 2016 by DebbS

[GoVanGogh]

Work with him through the summer to redo Algebra 1 and double up on math in the fall to finish if you want him to start geometry (or start as soon as Algebra 1 is finished).

 

The temptation to cheat can be huge for a kid who is left to work on their own in a subject that doesn't interest or is challenging for them. It's a setup for failure, as you now know.

I have heard the last paragraph above from dozens of moms over the years. It is human nature to take the easiest road possible.

I have had many moms with younger kids ask me at what age kids work independently. My answer: never. For one, learning does not happen in a vacuum. There needs to be interaction and discussion. For two, if a child doesn't understand something, it is easier to fake it than ask for help and work through the challenge.

[DebbS]

I have heard the last paragraph above from dozens of moms over the years. It is human nature to take the easiest road possible.

I have had many moms with younger kids ask me at what age kids work independently. My answer: never. For one, learning does not happen in a vacuum. There needs to be interaction and discussion. For two, if a child doesn't understand something, it is easier to fake it than ask for help and work through the challenge.

 

Yep. Even when they are mostly independent with their daily work, you have to implement check points.  It's those check points that I used for grading rather than their daily independent work. Some subjects can require daily check points while some do not. It really depends on the kid and the subject.

 

As a general rule, I have found that you don't have to watch as closely in the subjects where your child naturally engages with you about what they are learning. But, if your child isn't talking about a certain subject, you need to watch their daily work much more closely.

Edited July 16, 2016 by DebbS

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'd have him redo Algebra 1, starting today. One lesson per day, 7 days/wk, should have him finishing in November. If he doubles up on some of the early lessons, he could finish sooner. Then he can start Geometry, and can choose whether to double up on lessons, work on weekends, or work into next summer to complete it and get back on track.

 

I'd not only make sure to supervise his work, but make sure he has help if he's not understanding something. The fact that TT doesn't require the parent to teach or grade it doesn't mean a parent isn't needed sometimes to help explain things. If he's really struggling to understand the material, I'd consider a tutor.

 

:iagree:

 

I'd also switch curriculum, though. It's hard to revisit material you've already seen and failed to understand (or even commit to), plus it would be a daily reminder that he'd seen this lesson already and cheated instead of learned...I'd go full fresh start on Algebra 1. New program, lesson 1.

[TranquilMind]

Do different curriculum. I'd get a tutor so he would be performing for another person, not me.

 

I have one with a memory so good that he would just be able to memorize answers if he ever had seen them and spit them out again. (He did this for an eye exam and would have fooled the doc into thinking he had 20/20 vision- I stopped that).

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

I agree with others, I would not start him over in TT.  I would find another program and/or a tutor.  Also, punishment probably won't net a very healthy result long term.  I would be trying to find out why he cheated in the first place, not placing blame but trying to help him understand why he chose that path and the natural consequences that will result because of it.  I would also be hoping to help him engage in the subject and feel good about it.  Perhaps he reached a point where he struggled and did not want to admit it or perhaps math has always been hard or maybe he finds it incredibly boring and had a hard time staying engaged.

 

 He may need daily interaction and feedback.  At this point hiring a tutor so you aren't the bad guy and you aren't risking damaging your relationship might be your best option.  Someone who really helps him engage with the material and understand it would be ideal.  Maybe the tutor could meet with him twice a week and assign work for him to do on the other days.  Sit with him or near him and be there to answer questions.  Be encouraging.  Help him get past this with a positive attitude towards learning, if at all possible.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[GoodGrief]

I really like the idea of weekly meetings with a (preferably adult) tutor, if you can identify and afford one. This inserts a bit of accountability and can help move things along.

 

I think it would be fine to stick with TT, but perhaps switching to something like Derek Owens, where an outside entity is grading the work, would add another layer of accountability.

 

I would keep Alg 1 on the 9th grade portion of the transcript, myself.

[EKS]

When we had cheating issues it was always because my son felt completely overwhelmed.

 

Your son probably started cheating when he stopped understanding, not the other way around.  

 

He needs a human to teach him.

Edited July 17, 2016 by EKS

[G5052]

When we had cheating issues it was always because my son felt completely overwhelmed.

 

Your son probably started cheating when he stopped understanding, not the other way around.  

 

He needs a human to teach him.

 

This happened with one of mine.

 

I hired an outside teacher to repeat the class, and they pulled an "A." Part of it was that I'm a STEM professor who always found math easy, and I couldn't come up with alternate ways of explaining things that clicked for them. They felt intimidated, and there we were.

 

So for 9th-12th, their transcript will be Pre-Alg, Alg I, Geometry, and Algebra II. I just rearranged the credits since the class was repeated and ultimately passed.

 

Not as far as I had hoped, and thankfully everything else is stellar. Four years of high school Latin and multiple AP's.

 

Mine go locally to a community college in the 2+2 program with transfer to a nationally ranked school, so it won't affect college.

[dachewitt]

If a tutor is not affordable, I recommend the Art Reed videos that correspond to Saxon Math. He calmly and clearly explains each lesson and is very easy to watch. Rainbow resources sells the program as a package, but you can see samples and read Mr. Reed's teaching suggestions at www.usingsaxon.com. I have also found Mr. Reed's book _Using John Saxon's Math Books_ helpful, but much of the information is written on the site.

 

My oldest switched to Saxon, taught by Mr. Reed, half way through the year when she wasn't understanding a different program. She has completed the rest of the Saxon program very successfully and is starting calculus at the cc this fall while my youngest is working through the Saxon program.

 

Best wishes,

Debbie in MD

[suzziesnowflake]

Thanks for suggestions and support everyone. I have decided to change to Saxon because it is spiral like TT. Everyone is right, this is a teachable moment. I am wondering if I should give him the placement test just to be sure  Algebra 1 is a good place to start. I have read that TT can be a bit behind in Algebra 1 and by the time Algebra 2 is completed the student should be where they need to be for math. I am also thinking about getting a tutor for him once a week. Thanks again everyone.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Thanks for suggestions and support everyone. I have decided to change to Saxon because it is spiral like TT. Everyone is right, this is a teachable moment. I am wondering if I should give him the placement test just to be sure  Algebra 1 is a good place to start. I have read that TT can be a bit behind in Algebra 1 and by the time Algebra 2 is completed the student should be where they need to be for math. I am also thinking about getting a tutor for him once a week. Thanks again everyone.

 

The placement test is pretty necessary for Saxon, in my experience and from what I've always heard from others. You can find it for free on Sonlight's website, HERE.

 

If you ever want to start a thread about Saxon (esp. with Art Reed's DVDs), I'll be around -- my son is also switching from TT to Saxon! :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think a placement test is a good idea anytime you shift math programs. Scope and sequence don't always line up.

[EKS]

Agreeing on the placement test, especially since Saxon incorporates geometry into its algebra books.

[AmyontheFarm]

I agree take the placement test and I'd also look into http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.org/

They have a AYOP = At Your Own Pace class for the Saxon Math textbooks.  Even if you want him to do the work in a notebook, the videos by Tammy Moore and her team are great. 

[Janeway]

I would treat it like summer school. Several lessons a day, seven days a week, until done.

[FriedClams]

For Saxon Algebra 1, MFW has a great schedule of the necessary problems. We used it for half of algebra 1, then both of my kids needed all the practice. It will save you some time up front ask you can possibly double up on lessons. I also second Art Reed dvds. He's awesome. The lessons are succinct, clear, and he's old school math teacher funny. We love him! We've used Saxon from 1/2 through half of advanced math and I LOVE it.

[suzziesnowflake]

Well he scored in Algebra 1/2 :-( . So I guess that is where we start. Hopefully he can get through Algebra 2 before he graduates. I really thought TT would have prepared him better than it did. I am not sure if it has been so long since he has seen some the problems or what. I know he has not seen some of the stuff that was on the test. I can't even find it in TT algebra. So disappointed but thankful this happened this early in the game so we can repair what is broken and move on. Thanks again everyone for your insight and help!

[lmrich]

Love the idea of him getting up EARLY and completing the lessons in your presence (if you are an early riser, too). He can work double lessons through the summer and once school starts a lesson on Saturday and Sunday until he is finished with Algebra I and caught up in the next math. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It isn't uncommon for kids in their early teens to get distracted, feel overwhelmed, and/or test the boundaries of what they can get away with.  I think cheating is on this continuum.  So don't feel that you are the only family to ever deal with this.

 

I think that you have to deal with some of the things that lead to cheating, which might include not checking work on a daily basis, letting a student get behind and lost, letting a student do work where their distractions aren't noticed, etc.  At our house, we went through a period where a particular student had his laptop removed for an extended period of time, because he was spending time on things other than school during school hours.  (I considered this a natural consequence, not an unrelated punishment.)

 

I was also pretty blunt in expressing our disappointment in his choices.  When other things came up in subsequent months, I explained that I didn't feel that I could just give him the benefit of the doubt given past experience.  

 

 

As far as Saxon goes with regard to placement and progress, I would go ahead with the Algebra 1/2.  It sounds like he's been drifting for some months and may have been unstable before that.  Backtracking with give him a chance to figure out what he didn't understand the first time and fill those gaps.  

 

Saxon is designed with a spiral, such that each lesson has problems from the current lesson as well as past lessons.  I would not skip problems.  Our experience was that skipping problems meant that my kids didn't see some of the reviewed concepts for long periods of time.  Also, the books sometimes work the student close to understanding a new concept by increasing the difficulty on review problems (sort of a light form of discovery method).  I also found that time with the warm-up exercises was time well spent.

 

There is a significant amount of review at the beginning of a Saxon book.  You may find that when he starts the Saxon Algebra book, that he can test through a good portion of the beginning of the book (especially if you don't take any time between the books).  What that might look like would be to have him spend the first several days taking each test.  If he gets a high score on the test (say above 90%), then he takes the next test the next day.  Where he falls below 90%, back up about 10 lessons and start the book there.  Because there is review at the beginning, I would be more prone to going all the way to the end of one book, then testing through the beginning of the next, rather than ending a book part way through and moving to the next one.  (Obviously, your mileage may vary and other people may chime in with different experience.)

 

Backtracking isn't the end of the world for him or for you.