The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

[DawnM]

This thing about having the "right" to attend universities of their choice, or the idea that these will somehow be better, is a really interesting one, and I think wrong-headed.

 

I say this as someone who thinks the whole prestige university thing is not a great model, and that university education is generally better off paid publicly (that is largely free for those who qualify.)

 

There is just something so elitist and unpleasant about this, as if someone going to a less expensive university, or God forbid a trade school, is somehow going to be less useful to society or have a less enjoyable life.  And this conviction that only "the best" institutions will produce a successful person, where the heck does that come from?  It seems that it is pretty evidently not true.

 

I think this is really about something more than keeping up with the Joneses.

 

I was having the discussion on another board about free college.  I am not sure I want taxes going up significantly, but I do see the point of more affordable options.

 

And I think that if it is going to be free, there need to be huge stipulations......only 4 years' worth covered, only if you finish (or you will owe it back), etc.....and maybe only if you will work in the public sector for a while.  I know programs where it is free IF you teach in that state for 4 years or whatever, something like that.  You will still get paid but you need to "give back" to your state that provided the free education first, or something.

 

But I definitely would support something more affordable.  Thankfully our state's local 4 year school is affordable and pretty decent, and we can pay for it.  We are strongly encouraging our kids to go local for undergrad and save the $$ and "prestige" if they need it, for grad school.

[Murphy101]

I just made up the numbers for the example because I have no idea how much yarn costs.

 

I agree that often the profit from something is so low that it isn't worth the time. Selling used curriculum often isn't profitable because the sellers paid more for the materials than they can sell them for used. But if someone does sell an item for more than they paid (original purchse price plus costs of selling it such as gas to get there) then they did in fact make a profit on that item, whether their hourly rate was decent or terrible.

 

I am not advocating for paying people sweatshop wages or anything like that. I just have trouble understanding what seems to me to be the redefining of the word "profit."

No, what you seem to not understand is that this is not a redefining of profit. Profit has always been what is made after paying for materials and time. Time has always been considered a commodity same as any material good.

[FaithManor]

No, what you seem to not understand is that this is not a redefining of profit. Profit has always been what is made after paying for materials and time. Time has always been considered a commodity same as any material good.

Yes. In terms of running a business, and especially one incorporated as say an LLC, the time of the proprietor to do specific things - such as in my dad's heating business, install a chimney - is billed out in addition to materials. His time is not a profit to the business, but an expense. He is then paid a salary through the business. His personal income taxes are on that salary. His salary is an expense of the business and therefore deductible, so the business does not pay taxes on his time because it was not profit.

 

I think that with loosely created business, like custom crafts, where there isn't necessarily a formal business plan, nor incorporation and such, time is not often billed out. The item or service is billed out above the cost of materials, but often either due to the cheapness of our culture or well that pesky wage stagnation and often these types of items are wants and not needs to give lower spending priority, the market does not bear very much billing for time for the artisan. It is sad. Their time is very, very worthy. For proprietors of such a business they see whatever is left as the profit, but that isn't how it works in other types of businesses.

[TammyS]

. Arguably a zero interest car loan falls into the same category. the main purpose isn't to make money out of money.

 

0% interest car loans are for new cars, and the company has just factored the cost of the interest into the cost of the car, instead of stating it outright.  A quick way to test this is to ask what the "cash price" for the car is.

[TammyS]

*snort* yarn is very likely not going to be $10 on $50 sale, but besides that, no it wouldn't be a profit.

 

The amount of time spent can and does negate profit. There is a line where the amount paid is simply not worth the time it would take bc there's no profit to it.

 

We see this all the time.

 

Not too long ago here was a lengthy discussion about this wrt used curriculum sales. It costs nothing but time to sell used curriculum but if one can't get what they view as a decent price for their time - Forget it. Might as well just not sell it at all because it isn't profitable. There were a lot of people saying they felt that way. Because someone's TIME in and of itself is a costly commodity. One might even argue it's THE mostly costly.

 

It is profitable, just not profitable enough (which is a subjective measure that each individual applies).

 

[FaithManor]

0% interest car loans are for new cars, and the company has just factored the cost of the interest into the cost of the car, instead of stating it outright.  A quick way to test this is to ask what the "cash price" for the car is.

Similar to gas stations with a cash price vs. a credit card price because they are factoring the cost of the credit card transaction into the per gallon price.

[Jane in NC]

Yes. In terms of running a business, and especially one incorporated as say an LLC, the time of the proprietor to do specific things - such as in my dad's heating business, install a chimney - is billed out in addition to materials. His time is not a profit to the business, but an expense...

 

Snipping Faith's post which led me to connect some dots.  It seems that our culture has really started to undervalue the true cost of labor since we pay so little to those who manufacture many of our goods overseas.  Consider the complaining one hears whenever we must hire a skilled tradesman (plumber, carpenter) whose labor is not at the offshore rate! 

 

We recently hired a contractor who not not only has to pay himself, he has to maintain quite the inventory of tools to perform his job. No wonder these guys aren't cheap!  And, in all honesty, where I live the fly-by-nights tend to be the cheapos.  I'd rather hire someone with a reputation--even if I have to pay a little more. 

 

[FaithManor]

Snipping Faith's post which led me to connect some dots.  It seems that our culture has really started to undervalue the true cost of labor since we pay so little to those who manufacture many of our goods overseas.  Consider the complaining one hears whenever we must hire a skilled tradesman (plumber, carpenter) whose labor is not at the offshore rate! 

 

We recently hired a contractor who not not only has to pay himself, he has to maintain quite the inventory of tools to perform his job. No wonder these guys aren't cheap!  And, in all honesty, where I live the fly-by-nights tend to be the cheapos.  I'd rather hire someone with a reputation--even if I have to pay a little more. 

 

As a general rule, I believe in "you get what you pay for" and while there are charlatans and poor performing individuals that bill out at high rates, for the most part it goes the other way, and often the plumber with the rock bottom prices is the one that is rather under-trained or whose work ethic isn't all you'd like it to be. 

 

For us it was the sub-contractor that our builder used to lay carpet. Uhm, yah...he billed out at a super cheap rate per hour. But he made up for it by taking a T.V. with him to the work site and sitting on the floor most of the day - while we were waiting for our carpet to be laid - and watched football. He billed the contractor for his football watching hours. Ha, ha...he didn't get paid!

 

I like to research reputations, and then pay a good and fair price for that labor so it is mutually beneficial transaction for both sides. But my dad owned a business for a lot of years, and since I saw people do just about anything they could to weasel out of paying a fair price for a fireplace or a furnace, and some of them thought his highly skilled labor should be billed out at minimum wage to install it, I ended up with a different perspective, not a consumer only viewpoint.

[Murphy101]

Snipping Faith's post which led me to connect some dots. It seems that our culture has really started to undervalue the true cost of labor since we pay so little to those who manufacture many of our goods overseas. Consider the complaining one hears whenever we must hire a skilled tradesman (plumber, carpenter) whose labor is not at the offshore rate!

 

We recently hired a contractor who not not only has to pay himself, he has to maintain quite the inventory of tools to perform his job. No wonder these guys aren't cheap! And, in all honesty, where I live the fly-by-nights tend to be the cheapos. I'd rather hire someone with a reputation--even if I have to pay a little more.

 

This is absolutely true. I can get very snippy when someone asks me to knit them something lately. Probably pregnancy making me cranky. But seriously, so they want me to make them a hand knit custom sweater but then when I suggest a bare bones not even really making any profit by any standard price - they exclaim in horror, "What?! I could buy a knit sweater at target or old navy for under $40!"

 

Then yeah, my cranky response is, "Well it's a damn shame you came to me instead of asking some poor east India or Asian kid drinking cancer causing polluted water and working in a sweat shop 16 hours a day to make it for you. Because I'm not going to buy materials and work for 30 hours to create something for a few bowls of rice and $5."

Edited April 27, 2016 by Murphy101

[JumpyTheFrog]

Yes. In terms of running a business, and especially one incorporated as say an LLC, the time of the proprietor to do specific things - such as in my dad's heating business, install a chimney - is billed out in addition to materials. His time is not a profit to the business, but an expense. He is then paid a salary through the business. His personal income taxes are on that salary. His salary is an expense of the business and therefore deductible, so the business does not pay taxes on his time because it was not profit.

His salary is tax deductible to the business because otherwise he would be double taxed, since he pays personal income tax on it. If he ran it as a sole proprietorship, his salary would then be seen as profit.

 

The way that Murphy is using the word profit makes it seem like a person could run a sole proprietorship and pay themselves $300,000 per year and yet claim they didn't make a profit, even if revenues were $350,000 and expenses were $50,000.

 

ETA: The salary paid to other employees does reduce the amount of profit because it is a business expense.

Edited April 27, 2016 by HoppyTheToad

[JumpyTheFrog]

Then yeah, my cranky response is, "Well it's a damn shame you came to me instead of asking some poor east India or Asian kid drinking cancer causing polluted water and working in a sweat shop 16 hours a day to make it for you. Because I'm not going to buy materials and work for 30 hours to create something for a few bowls of rice and $5."

I agree that whatever they want you to make takes too long for what they want to pay. My parents are into hand wood carving as a hobby. At a woodworking show someone wanted to buy something my mom had on display. I think it had taken her about 40 hours to make and the guy wanted to pay maybe $50 for it. Maybe it was even $20. She said no way because her time was worth more than $0.50 per hour.

[Murphy101]

His salary is tax deductible to the business because otherwise he would be double taxed, since he pays personal income tax on it. If he ran it as a sole proprietorship, his salary would then be seen as profit.

 

The way that Murphy is using the word profit makes it seem like a person could run a sole proprietorship and pay themselves $300,000 per year and yet claim they didn't make a profit, even if revenues were $350,000 and expenses were $50,000.

 

ETA: The salary paid to other employees does reduce the amount of profit because it is a business expense.

My fil is the sole proprietor and the only employee of his incorporated business. His salary is not profit, it's a business expense. The profit his company makes is after materials and after his salary. And yes, there are years where that means his company doesn't have a profit.

 

Again. This is not even slightly new understanding of profit.

[FaithManor]

His salary is tax deductible to the business because otherwise he would be double taxed, since he pays personal income tax on it. If he ran it as a sole proprietorship, his salary would then be seen as profit.

 

The way that Murphy is using the word profit makes it seem like a person could run a sole proprietorship and pay themselves $300,000 per year and yet claim they didn't make a profit, even if revenues were $350,000 and expenses were $50,000.

 

ETA: The salary paid to other employees does reduce the amount of profit because it is a business expense.

Given the loopholes in the tax code, the above scenario might be entirely plausible! LOL

[FaithManor]

This is absolutely true. I can get very snippy when someone asks me to knit them something lately. Probably pregnancy making me cranky. But seriously, so they want me to make them a hand knit custom sweater but then when I suggest a bare bones not even really making any profit by any standard price - they exclaim in horror, "What?! I could buy a knit sweater at target or old navy for under $40!"

 

Then yeah, my cranky response is, "Well it's a damn shame you came to me instead of asking some poor east India or Asian kid drinking cancer causing polluted water and working in a sweat shop 16 hours a day to make it for you. Because I'm not going to buy materials and work for 30 hours to create something for a few bowls of rice and $5."

Yup, my mother in law used to make gorgeous crocheted rugs. She has to rip all the fabric into two inch wide strips, then sew all those strips together and wind it into a big ball, and then crochet it. A small rug gets something like four yards of fabric, and large ones eight yards. We all know what yardage costs these days.

 

She had someone from her church commission a huge one. She wanted to pay $20.00. That's it. It didn't even cover the cost of the fabric.

 

So needless to say MIL does not make rugs for other people anymore because every time someone asked, they were always mortified that she wouldn't sell at a loss, and god forbid she actually get a single red cent for her time!

[FaithManor]

I don't give piano lessons anymore for this reason. I have years and years of experience, and a bachelor's degree in piano performance and around here people think I should give lessons for $5.00 for 45 minutes.

 

Nope...not worth my time.

[Murphy101]

I don't give piano lessons anymore for this reason. I have years and years of experience, and a bachelor's degree in piano performance and around here people think I should give lessons for $5.00 for 45 minutes.

 

Nope...not worth my time.

It's frustrating bc I get it. It's not like I'm rolling in cash and can afford much myself. But if I can't afford something, I'm not outraged at the price so much as disappointed. It's the outrage that bothers me. Like decent wage for decent work is some unfair crazy concept.

 

edited bc tmi. Suffice to say I agree with you. 🙂

Edited April 27, 2016 by Murphy101

[regentrude]

I don't give piano lessons anymore for this reason. I have years and years of experience, and a bachelor's degree in piano performance and around here people think I should give lessons for $5.00 for 45 minutes.

 

That is nuts.

Sorry you are surrounded by people who do not value your expertise.

 

[Murphy101]

That is nuts.

Sorry you are surrounded by people who do not value your expertise.

 

Around here the cheap rates are $15-20 per 30 minute lesson., $30 isn't unusual as an average rate. $5?! Crickey. Nuts is right.

[FaithManor]

It's frustrating bc I get it. It's not like I'm rolling in cash and can afford much myself. But if I can't afford something, I'm not outraged at the price so much as disappointed. It's the outrage that bothers me. Like decent wage for decent work is some unfair crazy concept.

 

edited bc tmi. Suffice to say I agree with you. 🙂

EXACTLY!

 

I mean there have been plenty of times that I have not been able to afford to do this or that for my kids. But I don't get in a looney bin snit because someone won't sell their services at some ridiculous, worthless price just to soothe me. You nailed it. Disappointment is to be expected, and a perfectly acceptable response.

 

It's just the area I live in though...I've lived in plenty where I was paid well for lessons and as a result offered three full scholarship positions each year for families that would otherwise not be able to afford it. I screened the students and parents carefully to make sure I was getting a decent commitment for it, and it worked out very well.

 

So, a regional thing which means I simply don't teach piano in this region.

 

But, I do feel as though there seems to be a growing problem with this disconnect, the demand that skilled labor be given away for little money. I don't like that. It devalues people. It devalues skill. It devalues the time invested to become good at what we do. I feel that in a civilized nation, a first world country, if there is anything we should be all about it is the concept of valuing people, skill, training, and education because well, that's kind of one the main ways one crawls out of that third world country status because people can gain a skill and then support themselves with some security. To demand that everyone but the top 5% get good pay for their abilities - and sometimes I wonder what some of those top earners are actually bringing to the table (CEO's of EDS, HP, and IBM come to mind here along with a whole lot of others) - but everyone else be the serfs who are lucky to get table scraps while working to make money for the top lot is rather immoral to me. The discouragement among skilled laborers at present is huge!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

No, what you seem to not understand is that this is not a redefining of profit. Profit has always been what is made after paying for materials and time. Time has always been considered a commodity same as any material good.

Not always. An economic profit has always considered all opportunity costs, while an accounting profit may not consider anything that does not have a tangible expense.

[Murphy101]

EXACTLY!

 

I mean there have been plenty of times that I have not been able to afford to do this or that for my kids. But I don't get in a looney bin snit because someone won't sell their services at some ridiculous, worthless price just to soothe me. You nailed it. Disappointment is to be expected, and a perfectly acceptable response.

 

It's just the area I live in though...I've lived in plenty where I was paid well for lessons and as a result offered three full scholarship positions each year for families that would otherwise not be able to afford it. I screened the students and parents carefully to make sure I was getting a decent commitment for it, and it worked out very well.

 

So, a regional thing which means I simply don't teach piano in this region.

 

But, I do feel as though there seems to be a growing problem with this disconnect, the demand that skilled labor be given away for little money. I don't like that. It devalues people. It devalues skill. It devalues the time invested to become good at what we do. I feel that in a civilized nation, a first world country, if there is anything we should be all about it is the concept of valuing people, skill, training, and education because well, that's kind of one the main ways one crawls out of that third world country status because people can gain a skill and then support themselves with some security. To demand that everyone but the top 5% get good pay for their abilities - and sometimes I wonder what some of those top earners are actually bringing to the table (CEO's of EDS, HP, and IBM come to mind here along with a whole lot of others) - but everyone else be the serfs who are lucky to get table scraps while working to make money for the top lot is rather immoral to me. The discouragement among skilled laborers at present is huge!

I'm singing right next to you in the choir.

 

People constantly say, "oh learn a new skill so you can get ahead in life!"

 

While completely ignoring that fewer and fewer skills are being paid a rate that reflects the work put into them.

 

And thus why I get comments like, "why do you knit if there's no money in it?"

 

Setting aside that there should be some monetary value, it reflects a diminished basic value of learning a skill at all.

[SKL]

I always ask myself if I would work for the rate I'm wanting to pay someone else.  Sure, there are some people who charge more than what I consider a reasonable amount, but then there is probably someone else out there who will do it for less.  For example, the electrician who wanted hundreds of dollars for replacing two light switches.  He won't be invited back, but his competition won a few projects.  :P  [i would have installed the switches myself, but another resident was adamantly against that.]

 

I think learning skills is worthwhile because even if you can't make a living off of it, you can still benefit by doing things for yourself and your family.  I do think some life skills have moved over into the hobby/craft category since there are much cheaper, easier alternatives.  Not that hobbies are wasteful.  We should all have some.  :)

[TammyS]

This is absolutely true. I can get very snippy when someone asks me to knit them something lately. Probably pregnancy making me cranky. But seriously, so they want me to make them a hand knit custom sweater but then when I suggest a bare bones not even really making any profit by any standard price - they exclaim in horror, "What?! I could buy a knit sweater at target or old navy for under $40!"

 

Then yeah, my cranky response is, "Well it's a damn shame you came to me instead of asking some poor east India or Asian kid drinking cancer causing polluted water and working in a sweat shop 16 hours a day to make it for you. Because I'm not going to buy materials and work for 30 hours to create something for a few bowls of rice and $5."

 

I've had the same thing.  I always start the conversation with this: My minimum is $200 + materials, and that gets you a single color, basic sweater with no size customization.

 

People always gawk.  If only they knew how little I'd make even on that transaction.

[Murphy101]

I always ask myself if I would work for the rate I'm wanting to pay someone else. Sure, there are some people who charge more than what I consider a reasonable amount, but then there is probably someone else out there who will do it for less. For example, the electrician who wanted hundreds of dollars for replacing two light switches. He won't be invited back, but his competition won a few projects. :P [i would have installed the switches myself, but another resident was adamantly against that.]

 

I think learning skills is worthwhile because even if you can't make a living off of it, you can still benefit by doing things for yourself and your family. I do think some life skills have moved over into the hobby/craft category since there are much cheaper, easier alternatives. Not that hobbies are wasteful. We should all have some. :)

Hmm, I'm fascinated by how much people think are no longer necessary, but are just out of date hobbies,mbc they are completely ignorant or have some serious cognitive dissonance about it. (Not necessarily you, but a general observation.)

 

For example, I forget who or the thread, but not to long ago someone referred to knitting and sewing as "archaic". Um. What? Unless everyone is suddenly deciding to go naked, no, they are not.

 

I've heard this about blacksmiths, cobblers, stone masons... and more and I'm stunned every time.

[Jane in NC]

 

Not that hobbies are wasteful.  We should all have some.  :)

 

I'm sure Martha will understand.  Either I knit socks or I pay for a therapist.  ;)  OK--maybe not the latter, but sock knitting keeps me sane.

 

Hobbies are often not about the economic value although they can be. I know a bunch of 20 and 30 somethings who are all about DYI and reducing environme ntal impact.  I think they demonstrate that "cheaper" is not always cheaper in the big picture--if you know what I mean.

[TammyS]

It's frustrating bc I get it. It's not like I'm rolling in cash and can afford much myself. But if I can't afford something, I'm not outraged at the price so much as disappointed. It's the outrage that bothers me. Like decent wage for decent work is some unfair crazy concept.

 

edited bc tmi. Suffice to say I agree with you. 🙂

 

I get both sides of this.  I understand people who constantly get people who don't want to pay.  But I also get frustrated with small business owners that get offended when asked what something will cost.  There is this attitude like, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it".  Well, maybe I can't afford it, but why is it so offensive for me to find out what it costs? 

[Bluegoat]

There's actually an option here to have one set payment every month based in the previous year's average usage. In theory this is to help people budget and lessen the pain of those insane summer electric bills or insane winter heating bills by spreading them out over the year. We don't do it though because it makes it almost impossible to tell when you are being screwed on usage. For example, they tried charging me $580 dollars on one electric bill last year and I knew that was nuts. Turns out they hadn't actually checked my meter in four months and were just basing it on their made estimated average bc they said my meter wasn't accessible. BS. Not only can you see my meter in plain view from the house, you can walk completely around it. The meter guy just hadn't bothered to do his job. I pitched a fit and they finally sent someone out and my bill was less than $200. With an average payment plan, I'd have no way of catching that. I might not even really know about it until the average payment plan for he next year came around. The meter guy then claimed my meter was broke or maybe we didn't live here year round bc he said I use less than the average 1200 sq ft home with a family of four living in it. Nope. We shower, eat, do dishes and general life stuff and live here daily. I don't know what the heck them other people are doing. I don't think we even try very hard to conserve water and energy so I'm always shocked by the supposed averages of houses and families smaller than mine.

 

They commonly charge that way here in winter, because so many meters get snowed in.  Usually it isn't hard to get adjusted, and often it happens automatically in the Spring, but you do have to watch it to make sure.

[Guest]

This is absolutely true. I can get very snippy when someone asks me to knit them something lately. Probably pregnancy making me cranky. But seriously, so they want me to make them a hand knit custom sweater but then when I suggest a bare bones not even really making any profit by any standard price - they exclaim in horror, "What?! I could buy a knit sweater at target or old navy for under $40!"

 

Then yeah, my cranky response is, "Well it's a damn shame you came to me instead of asking some poor east India or Asian kid drinking cancer causing polluted water and working in a sweat shop 16 hours a day to make it for you. Because I'm not going to buy materials and work for 30 hours to create something for a few bowls of rice and $5."

Hold the phone. Did you announce this, or are you keeping it on the DL? Because - congratulations! And I pray all goes well.

[Bluegoat]

I don't understand this definition of profit. A craftsman's profit would be the difference between what he sold an item for and what he paid for materials and hired help. This difference, or profit, is to pay for the time he spent working on the item. What am I not understanding?

 

Not necessarily.  In this way of thinking, what he gets for his time and skill, for his labour,  is more like a fair wage.  Anything above and beyond that is extra, profit, and was seen as morally questionable.  (Which is why merchants were often looked at with some suspicion, as they mainly moved good around and people didn't think of it as productive work in the same way.)

 

Today, that isn't how we look at business.  A business that produces profit beyond it's costs, including the labour of the workers and owners, is seen as most successful and morally unobjectionable.  The question that an earlier theologian would have asked is - where is that extra value that the money is representing coming from, if not from resources or labour?

[Bluegoat]

I understand that but the reality is that most of the people I know who are "behind" are "behind" because they live in areas where housing costs are high, or work in sectors where wages simply don't rise no matter what, although supposedly these are valuable professions (like teaching, welding, etc.).

 

Most of the people I know who have those extras are doing quite well mainly due to living in a very cheap area (but they lose out on time spent with kids) OR they have good salaries.

 

I suspect there is a perception thing here.  Statistically it seems to me that a lot of the people who seem on the surface to be doing well, are actually behind - they are in debt with little depth for emergencies.

[Guest]

Given the loopholes in the tax code, the above scenario might be entirely plausible! LOL

That scenario is somewhat plausible, actually, because in some businesses, the company can pay the pricipals a draw, which has fewer taxes than payroll. However, a co pany cannot disproportionately pay oner's draws, while only paying a tiny payroll salary because the IRS will say something stinks in Denmark.

 

Only know about this because of construction industry.

 

But in the example, I think it's pretty unlikely that there is any business that will profit 300k with only 50K im expenses, because I want to be in a business like that! :D

[Bluegoat]

I was having the discussion on another board about free college.  I am not sure I want taxes going up significantly, but I do see the point of more affordable options.

 

And I think that if it is going to be free, there need to be huge stipulations......only 4 years' worth covered, only if you finish (or you will owe it back), etc.....and maybe only if you will work in the public sector for a while.  I know programs where it is free IF you teach in that state for 4 years or whatever, something like that.  You will still get paid but you need to "give back" to your state that provided the free education first, or something.

 

But I definitely would support something more affordable.  Thankfully our state's local 4 year school is affordable and pretty decent, and we can pay for it.  We are strongly encouraging our kids to go local for undergrad and save the $$ and "prestige" if they need it, for grad school.

 

There are quite a few countries with free university (or trade school or technical school.)  There are lots of ways to make it work well - most of them view it as economically beneficial in the larger picture.

[Arcadia]

I have years and years of experience, and a bachelor's degree in piano performance and around here people think I should give lessons for $5.00 for 45 minutes.

We are paying my kids flute and cello teachers $50 for 45mins and that is on the low side. Minimum wage is already going to be $15/hr for my state and babysitters are generally paid more than minimum wage.

[Guest]

I suspect there is a perception thing here. Statistically it seems to me that a lot of the people who seem on the surface to be doing well, are actually behind - they are in debt with little depth for emergencies.

Yes - hence the article. It's "secret shame" precisely because its not what you would think looking from outside.

[DawnM]

There are quite a few countries with free university (or trade school or technical school.)  There are lots of ways to make it work well - most of them view it as economically beneficial in the larger picture.

 

 

Yes, and there are stipulations in those countries.  And their tax rates are higher, and only the top tier students go/qualify, etc.....

 

Ultimately, it isn't free.  None of it is.  The money has to come from somewhere.

[Murphy101]

I'm sure Martha will understand. Either I knit socks or I pay for a therapist. ;) OK--maybe not the latter, but sock knitting keeps me sane.

 

Hobbies are often not about the economic value although they can be. I know a bunch of 20 and 30 somethings who are all about DYI and reducing environme ntal impact. I think they demonstrate that "cheaper" is not always cheaper in the big picture--if you know what I mean.

I half-joke all the time that knitting is cheaper than therapy or prison and it's more expensive bc it's made with love stitches.😄

 

But seriously hobbies and the arts in general are important to society. Vital IMO.

[Murphy101]

I get both sides of this. I understand people who constantly get people who don't want to pay. But I also get frustrated with small business owners that get offended when asked what something will cost. There is this attitude like, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it". Well, maybe I can't afford it, but why is it so offensive for me to find out what it costs?

Yeah. That's nuts. Like it's rude or something to want to know how much something will cost. I've gotten that sometimes too. Or people who are insulted by asking if they can bargain in that price some. I don't get that at all. I don't mind being asked and I don't mind someone suggesting a bit less to haggle. But don't freak out like I just announced some horrific ply immoral and crazy thing like a mob hit in progress or something.

[KungFuPanda]

Right now I'm living in "Expected Family Contribution" hell. How do they even get that number? They do not care if you live in a HCOL area at all. We've made it through year one of college without debt, but I don't think we can hold out all four years.

[Carol in Cal.]

Yeah. That's nuts. Like it's rude or something to want to know how much something will cost. I've gotten that sometimes too. Or people who are insulted by asking if they can bargain in that price some.

I just plain won't buy from a vendor who doesn't have price labels.  Because I feel like if I do, they are sizing me up for ability to pay, and setting a price based on whatever assessment they make.  Ugh.

[Murphy101]

Hold the phone. Did you announce this, or are you keeping it on the DL? Because - congratulations! And I pray all goes well.

I can't remember if I announced here or not. I swear I used to joke my last baby got my last brain cell, but it's not so funny now I'm working on a deficit of brain power with this one. The brain fog has been just ridiculous. I did finally announce on Fb last week, which was an interesting reaction.

 

I'm doing good.😊

And boy howdy am I ever praying it all goes well too. I'm hoping to be done with crazy brutal deliveries, tyvm.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, and there are stipulations in those countries.  And their tax rates are higher, and only the top tier students go/qualify, etc.....

 

Ultimately, it isn't free.  None of it is.  The money has to come from somewhere.

 

Yes, there are always stipulations.  I don't know that I would say students have to be "top tier."  They have to meet the requirements of the school, whatever they are - (and not all are universities, other forms of post-secondary education also are generally included.  And are less looked down upon than in the US.)  American universities also have qualifications for their students.  Those places aren't typically graduating fewer people either, which is important to look at.

 

It's always interesting for me to read the college application discussions from Americans - I think that getting into universities there is far more fraught than in many other places with subsidized or free university.  It doesn't seem like people who ought to be there are being missed in great numbers, which does seem to happen when financial means are the main issue.

 

It's true that it is all paid for in the end.    But you have to trade costs off against benefits, monetary or otherwise, to society, in having an educated workforce where people with the ability can learn really usable skills (from a university or whatever) they need to contribute to society.  And higher taxes aren't just money lost anyway, they pay for services that people use, directly or indirectly.

[Murphy101]

I just plain won't buy from a vendor who doesn't have price labels. Because I feel like if I do, they are sizing me up for ability to pay, and setting a price based on whatever assessment they make. Ugh.

Ha. It depends on my mood. I generally hate any kind of shopping, so for the love of, if you get me in the store, don't make me have to be there longer looking for a starting price. I'll just decide it must not be for sale and leave. 98% of my financial "savings" is just being too lazy to bother to buy anything.

 

Now my husband? He lives for that. Because it means he can start the negotiation anywhere he wants.

[Murphy101]

Right now I'm living in "Expected Family Contribution" hell. How do they even get that number? They do not care if you live in a HCOL area at all. We've made it through year one of college without debt, but I don't think we can hold out all four years.

You and me both. That number has got to be pulled out of a unicorn's butt bc it has no basis whatsoever in reality.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Murphy101

[creekland]

Either I knit socks or I pay for a therapist.  ;)  OK--maybe not the latter, but sock knitting keeps me sane.

 

Swap that with travel and/or the Great Outdoors (for me) and I'm right there with you.  I can't imagine life without those junkie rushes keeping everything sane.

 

I half-joke all the time that knitting is cheaper than therapy or prison and it's more expensive bc it's made with love stitches.😄

 

But seriously hobbies and the arts in general are important to society. Vital IMO.

 

:iagree:  We all have our own loves - or should - and society benefits as much as we individuals do.  By having different loves, we keep a large variety of our society going.  If we all loved the same thing, it would be way too unaffordable for the majority of us.

[DawnM]

Yes, there are always stipulations.  I don't know that I would say students have to be "top tier."  They have to meet the requirements of the school, whatever they are - (and not all are universities, other forms of post-secondary education also are generally included.  And are less looked down upon than in the US.)  American universities also have qualifications for their students.  Those places aren't typically graduating fewer people either, which is important to look at.

 

It's always interesting for me to read the college application discussions from Americans - I think that getting into universities there is far more fraught than in many other places with subsidized or free university.  It doesn't seem like people who ought to be there are being missed in great numbers, which does seem to happen when financial means are the main issue.

 

It's true that it is all paid for in the end.    But you have to trade costs off against benefits, monetary or otherwise, to society, in having an educated workforce where people with the ability can learn really usable skills (from a university or whatever) they need to contribute to society.  And higher taxes aren't just money lost anyway, they pay for services that people use, directly or indirectly.

 

 

that would be great, but I don't think it really reflects the whole picture.  

 

In England, almost 50% of college graduates hold jobs that don't require a college degree because there is a glut of college educated on the market.

 

Here is just one article about it:

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/10/03/there-is-not-such-thing-as-a-free-college-education/#16d576354c6e

 

It all sounds great, but there is more to delve into and look at than just "ok, let's raise taxes and make college free."  

 

This article implies that there is a lower percentage of those going to college than in the USA, making the tax burden less than it would be in the USA:  Germany in particular has the lowest percentage of students going to college.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-do-european-countries-afford-free-college-2015-6

 

Ultimately though, I like this article the best because it has some practical suggestions for the US to consider more affordable college options and lists why the USA colleges are more expensive:

 

 

http://www.attn.com/stories/211/how-does-germany-afford-free-tuition-all-its-citizens

 

We can't have our cake and eat it too.  There have to be changes.  The article states that the US colleges provide more services than the free colleges and those extras would need to either be paid by individuals or cut out.

 

I am not trying to argue.  I WANT lower cost college options.  I would love free college.  But I would need to know what other sacrifices we would need to make as citizens before agreeing to the changes.

[creekland]

How timely.

 

I just saw a commercial while watching our local TV (NBC affiliate) news.

 

"This place looks great!  How were you able to afford this kitchen?"

 

"That's easy!  I just went to insert credit union name to get a Home Equity Loan!"

 

It reminded me both of this thread and many episodes of House Hunters where I'm left scratching my head about why the hunters feel the kitchen (or bathroom) needs to be ripped out and replaced.

 

It's one thing to do it when one has the $$ for it.  Spend as you like.  It keeps our economy rolling.  It's quite another thing when one is heading to insert credit union name IMO.  Still have $$ for that emergency later, esp if that emergency is > $400?

[Bluegoat]

that would be great, but I don't think it really reflects the whole picture.  

 

In England, almost 50% of college graduates hold jobs that don't require a college degree because there is a glut of college educated on the market.

 

Here is just one article about it:

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/10/03/there-is-not-such-thing-as-a-free-college-education/#16d576354c6e

 

It all sounds great, but there is more to delve into and look at than just "ok, let's raise taxes and make college free."  

 

This article implies that there is a lower percentage of those going to college than in the USA, making the tax burden less than it would be in the USA:  Germany in particular has the lowest percentage of students going to college.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-do-european-countries-afford-free-college-2015-6

 

Ultimately though, I like this article the best because it has some practical suggestions for the US to consider more affordable college options and lists why the USA colleges are more expensive:

 

 

http://www.attn.com/stories/211/how-does-germany-afford-free-tuition-all-its-citizens

 

We can't have our cake and eat it too.  There have to be changes.  The article states that the US colleges provide more services than the free colleges and those extras would need to either be paid by individuals or cut out.

 

I am not trying to argue.  I WANT lower cost college options.  I would love free college.  But I would need to know what other sacrifices we would need to make as citizens before agreeing to the changes.

 

If there are a lot of extra people going to college with the idea that it will get them a better job, and those jobs don't materialize, doesn't that suggest that there are too many people going in those places?  That is consistent with my observation of the UK, here in Canada, and of the US.  I know so many people that have a degree - in some cases a good one but in many a rather half-assed one - who ended up going back to some other kind of institution for training for a career.  Their university experience for those who weren't really inspired was simply a costly way to extend adolescence, and even some who made more of it wish they had gone straight to their other training.

 

ETA - I'm afraid I couldn't look at the Forbes article - their website never seems to work properly for me - but I am just not seeing much in these articles that is really very significant.  Yes, fewer students go, which I don't see as bad.  Yes, taxes are higher, on the other hand there is not the worry over how to get job training.  I also tend to think the level of "services" offered at North American universities tends to be very over the top, so cutting that back doesn't seem like a bad thing.  In fact it often seems like there is significantly less emphasis on the university as a place to learn because of it.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Bluegoat

[regentrude]

 

 

Germany in particular has the lowest percentage of students going to college.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-do-european-countries-afford-free-college-2015-6

 

Just want to comment on this: it makes no sense to compare German and American rates of "going to college" because the college system is structured very differently. Many  fields which in the US are taught at a "college" are taught in non-college institutions in Germany. Germany has a very strong system of vocational training beginning after 10th grade; many of these areas would be taught at a community college or subject specific college.

 

The link has a table that claims 94% of US students who graduate high school attend tertiary education.

There are several issues with that. First, it would require comparing dropout rates between nations, Second, since the high school systems are very different, it would be necessary to take a close look at methodology: how is a student counted who graduates from a 10th grade high school in Germany and continues into a vocational school or apprenticeship program? Third, this rate does not mesh with any experiences I have made, or read about. It would be interesting to see what exactly they call "tertiary education". Do they count going into the military? A 6 mo certificate program?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Just want to comment on this: it makes no sense to compare German and American rates of "going to college" because the college system is structured very differently. Many  fields which in the US are taught at a "college" are taught in non-college institutions in Germany. Germany has a very strong system of vocational training beginning after 10th grade; many of these areas would be taught at a community college or subject specific college.

 

The link has a table that claims 94% of US students who graduate high school attend tertiary education.

There are several issues with that. First, it would require comparing dropout rates between nations, Second, since the high school systems are very different, it would be necessary to take a close look at methodology: how is a student counted who graduates from a 10th grade high school in Germany and continues into a vocational school or apprenticeship program? Third, this rate does not mesh with any experiences I have made, or read about. It would be interesting to see what exactly they call "tertiary education". Do they count going into the military? A 6 mo certificate program?

 

I always feel like this hyper-focus on "college" really muddies the question.  It's like it's about the designation, not the training or the level of general education or the ability to support oneself.

 

The fact that people are coming out of university without being all that employable, or without much general education, doesn't seem to matter so much.

[DawnM]

Just want to comment on this: it makes no sense to compare German and American rates of "going to college" because the college system is structured very differently. Many  fields which in the US are taught at a "college" are taught in non-college institutions in Germany. Germany has a very strong system of vocational training beginning after 10th grade; many of these areas would be taught at a community college or subject specific college.

 

The link has a table that claims 94% of US students who graduate high school attend tertiary education.

There are several issues with that. First, it would require comparing dropout rates between nations, Second, since the high school systems are very different, it would be necessary to take a close look at methodology: how is a student counted who graduates from a 10th grade high school in Germany and continues into a vocational school or apprenticeship program? Third, this rate does not mesh with any experiences I have made, or read about. It would be interesting to see what exactly they call "tertiary education". Do they count going into the military? A 6 mo certificate program?

 

 

I agree, but when people argue they bring up how Europe does it, so we can too.  Just like people bring up the educational system in Norway as being Utopian and America should do the same, but it is apples and oranges.

 

That is the only reason I made the comparison.