This is absurd!

[I talk to the trees]

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but dh forwarded this article to me, and I thought the hive might be interested. Coming soon to a public school near you:

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08266/914029-298.stm

 

-Robin

[fsunolefan]

This is a very deeply disturbing article. One of the continuing discussions I've been having with other parents is why we as a society have decided that our children should not learn how to deal with disappointment or consequences. It seems more important that a child feel "happy". I still say that without the struggle, they will never feel any true sense of accomplishment. Just think of the look on your childs face when they finally "get" something that they were really struggling to understand. I would no sooner deprive them of this feeling success and accomplishemnt than I would food. It's just so very sad that this is being proposed.

[ticklbee]

Wow!

 

Children are by nature lazy creatures (with exceptions of course) and they will rise to the expectations we set for them. If we expect nothing, then that is what they will deliver. Where is the incentive to do well and to try hard when the kid next to you does nothing and gets a 50%?

 

I think the lady they quoted was right on the money when she said

 

"Judy Leonardi, a Stanton Heights resident and retired district home economics teacher, said she objected to the notion that a student could "walk in the door, breathe the air and get 50 percent for that."

"I don't think it sets kids up properly for college, for competition in life," she said.

 

To Ms. Leonardi, a 20 percent score means a student isn't trying or needs more help with the material. Automatically putting 50 percent in the grade book, she said, doesn't help the student in either case. "To me, it's morally wrong," she said."

[beansprouts]

I usually fall on the ultra-conservative side of these issues, but this time I actually see their point.

 

"A failing grade is a failing grade," district spokeswoman Ebony Pugh said.

 

At the same time, they said, the 50 percent minimum gives children a chance to catch up and a reason to keep trying. If a student gets a 20 percent in a class for the first marking period, Ms. Pugh said, he or she would need a 100 percent during the second marking period just to squeak through the semester.

 

"We want to create situations where students can recover and not give up," she said, adding a sense of helplessness can lead to behavior and attendance problems.

 

 

The kid who gets a 20% first semester will need to get 100% second semester to squeak by with a D. This could seem nearly hopeless for a child who struggles academically. However, the kid who has his 20% adjusted to a 50% first semester, will still have to earn the 70% second semester in order to pass the year with a D. Even if he pulls off a 100% second semester, averaged wiith his 50% first semester, he is never going to finish the year with more than a 75% or a C. So the class valedictorian still has nothing to fear from the "air breathers". ;)

[Unicorn.]

Texas has been doing this for years. My dh hasn't been allowed to give a grade below 50, in over 15 yrs. Even if the student NEVER turns in any work, they still get a 50! Yep, we're really teaching them responsibility aren't we? :0(

[rwalizer]

And yet WE aren't qualified to teach and WE are not preparing our kids for the real world. I thought it was ridiculous when my ds started ps and I found out that the grading scale had changed so that a 90 was still an A. When I was in school many moons ago, you had to have a 95 to get an A. But of course that may make some kid feel bad, so they had to lower the expectations. As long as the schools keep lowering the bar, I will just have one more reason to keep homeschooling.

[Lovedtodeath]

I usually fall on the ultra-conservative side of these issues, but this time I actually see their point.

 

 

 

The kid who gets a 20% first semester will need to get 100% second semester to squeak by with a D. This could seem nearly hopeless for a child who struggles academically. However, the kid who has his 20% adjusted to a 50% first semester, will still have to earn the 70% second semester in order to pass the year with a D. Even if he pulls off a 100% second semester, averaged wiith his 50% first semester, he is never going to finish the year with more than a 75% or a C. So the class valedictorian still has nothing to fear from the "air breathers". ;)

 

:iagree::iagree: As one of the gifted in our Geometry class, my grade was 103% and I would have loved it if the boy I was tutoring was given a break so that his improvement would have meant more. If someone is not improving, they will still fail the class with a 50% grade.

[laughing lioness]

"...and when everybody's super, nobody is."

[iquilt]

I was at church tonight for children's choirs and listening to several moms/ps teachers talk about this very thing. Apparently it's a trend here, too. Two of them were defending the policy while 3 others were quite upset by the policy.

[Cindyg]

When I was a PS teacher, I tried and tried to help my students understand the devastation to their grade average when they failed to turn in a single assignment. (I gave them a zero for that, which was what they had earned--or HADN'T earned.)

 

The solution to this is NOT to prohibit teachers from giving zeroes. The solution is for kids to turn in their assignments!

 

Duh.

[Lovedtodeath]

I can see your point. Maybe the 50% shouldn't apply to not turning anything in at all. When I was in 3rd grade I got a zero for talking during a test! Things sure have changed.

[WTMCassandra]

I actually sort of liked the "A, B, or not yet" policy mentioned later in the article that some schools have put in. I think it's especially good for elementary.

 

And yes, I think the 50% for breathing is "out there."

[Cheryl in NM]

I actually sort of liked the "A, B, or not yet" policy mentioned later in the article that some schools have put in. I think it's especially good for elementary.

 

And yes, I think the 50% for breathing is "out there."

 

This is how I grade ds's work, kind of. The original grade stands, but he has to correct any work that is below a B (80%). Of course, I only add points for the corrections.

[I talk to the trees]

So the class valedictorian still has nothing to fear from the "air breathers". ;)

 

But it's not about the valedictorians! It's about the kids who are struggling, and truly need help! Here's an example of what I mean: Say little Billy is having difficulty in history. He tries his absolute best to study for the first test of the year, but despite his efforts, earns a 50% on the first test. The next couple of weeks, he goofs off, doesn't study, and really bombs the second test with a 25%, but the grade he receives is still a 50%. What has Billy learned from this? If I don't put forth any effort, I'll still get the same grade that I would if I tried my best, so... Trying isn't worth the effort.

 

If teachers really want to help students with failing grades, they can always hand out (reasonably simple) extra credit assignments. But please! Don't give students credit for nothing!

 

I realize that the public school regulations in another state really don't affect me or my family, so I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it! Just adding this to the list of 1000 or so reasons I homeschool!

 

-Robin

[Nestof3]

I think essentially they are just trying to pass more kids -- to get the ones obviously not excelling at all out of their hair.

 

Ridiculous. I don't curve or fudge any grades, and I never will. I will not raise men who expect something to be handed to them -- they must earn their way in this world.

[Parrothead]

Another way to enforce the entitlement mentality.

[brasilmom]

I can certainly not believe this. Growing up, and attending public schools in Brazil we would completely fail a grade if we could not master all the subjects. That means you would do that grade all over again. Sounds like now they have a more "complacent" rules so the kids do not have to do over a grade. I have mixed feelings bout it. However, granting a 50 just for showing up??? That's a a very long stretch. Certainly this policy does not teach anything constructive and does not make real citizens.

[Only me]

I think a good solution would be to let the kids get additional points if they correct their mistakes and then turn that in. One year my dd had a teacher like that. You could turn in test corrections and get a certain number of points back. The students would have to give the correct answer and then explain why that answer was right and their original answer was wrong. I think this forced the kids to really learn by their mistakes and also gave the kids with a low score the opportunity to bring it up a bit.

[Remudamom]

I think it's a great idea. Let the PS churn out sub par citizens, then it'll be easier for us homeschoolers to take over the world.

[JFSinIL]

Our district has already done away with letter grades for grades 1 - 5. As though folks can't figure out what letter grade is the equivalent to the pc terms the district has chosen to use!!!!

[Nestof3]

I think a good solution would be to let the kids get additional points if they correct their mistakes and then turn that in. One year my dd had a teacher like that. You could turn in test corrections and get a certain number of points back. The students would have to give the correct answer and then explain why that answer was right and their original answer was wrong. I think this forced the kids to really learn by their mistakes and also gave the kids with a low score the opportunity to bring it up a bit.

 

 

I don't have a problem with this at all. I had my son correct all of his mistakes before filing it away, and he had to try to figure them out on his own first. If he couldn't, he could then come to me.

 

For math, I actually did give him credit on assignments for each problem he corrected properly. I think on tests, each problem was worth 4 points, and each corrected problem gave him 1 point. I cannot remember exactly. We are in VA, and their grading scale is one of the toughest. Though I don't have to technically go by it, I chose to. Here, 94-100 is an A.

 

So, if he missed one problem, got a 95, corrected it properly on the FIRST time (it had to be the first time), he would then get a 96.

 

I went with the grading scale Jay Wile recommends in his science books, though. (just thought I'd mention that).

[I talk to the trees]

I think it's a great idea. Let the PS churn out sub par citizens, then it'll be easier for us homeschoolers to take over the world.

 

:lol: EXACTLY what dh said!!

 

-Robin

[SquirrellyMama]

My dh's high school in MN had a strange policy when he was there. I can't remember what it was called but you could have as many chances as necessary to pass a test or assignment. I can understand it to a degree because that's what we do here at home. If my dd has mistakes she corrects them. I haven't started giving grades yet. At his high school they could get an A on the assignment even if it took them 5 times. I think it was called Outcome Based Education.

 

I have no problem with kids correcting their work and maybe getting some points for it. Maybe 1/2 point per problem for the first correction. After that they just have to correct it without points.

 

I find it comical when they change the "F" to an "E" or red pen to purple pen (can't remember where I heard that one). An E is going to be bad now and purple pen will make stomachs turn.

 

Kelly

[Nestof3]

Let the PS churn out sub par citizens, then it'll be easier for us homeschoolers to take over the world.

 

This doesn't exactly excite me because these homeschoolers who take over the world will most likely be paying for those sub par citizens. :(

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Goodness- that's a full 20 points lower than what an "F" is here (70 or below). I could not imagine giving a "D" for a 60% grade. I thought the public school here used a similar system to ours- at least the high school.

 

I believe setting the bar high- very high. That way even if kids don't reach above the bar, you at least get acceptable results.

[Nestof3]

You know, this doesn't happen only with children. Our local police force was required to lower their passing grade on the entrance exam because blacks and Hispanics cried discrimination on the math portion of the test (because fewer blacks and Hispanics passed).

 

The VA judicial system actually ruled that the math test was indeed discriminatory. The public was allowed to see a sampling of the math test. Most of the problems did not go beyond a fifth grade level of math.

 

Who ever knew you could discriminate with math?

[unsinkable]

Can we pretty-please copy&paste the first few paragraphs of news stories into our original/opening posts?

 

It makes it so much easier to decide if I want to read the whole article.

 

Thank you sooooooo much! :001_smile:

[cathmom]

Actually, this doesn't bother me. Mainly because I am against the whole grading system anyway.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

This doesn't exactly excite me because these homeschoolers who take over the world will most likely be paying for those sub par citizens. :(

 

By these sub par public school citizens do you mean my friend's child who graduated last year with a full ride scholarship to one of the best universities in the state? Do you mean my dd's 8 year old friend who has developed a charity to help animals in need? Do you mean all the kids who are working their tails off for 5 hours plus homework to get straight A's while some of these great and wonderful homeschoolers do 2 hours of work a day and call it "school"? :glare:

 

There are sub par public schoolers, private schoolers, and homeschoolers. Just because a parent and child make one choice over another is not a guarantee of success.

 

As for racial bias on academic tests, it absolutely exists. I would have to see the test in question to specifically look for examples of bias, however so I can not comment on that particular test and would be doing it as a layman, not a professional.

[beansprouts]

But it's not about the valedictorians! It's about the kids who are struggling, and truly need help! Here's an example of what I mean: Say little Billy is having difficulty in history. He tries his absolute best to study for the first test of the year, but despite his efforts, earns a 50% on the first test. The next couple of weeks, he goofs off, doesn't study, and really bombs the second test with a 25%, but the grade he receives is still a 50%. What has Billy learned from this? If I don't put forth any effort, I'll still get the same grade that I would if I tried my best, so... Trying isn't worth the effort.

 

 

But 50% is still an "F" (or an "E" or whatever...) Even at his best poor Billy is still failing. However, with extra tutoring, and extra effort, he can still pull himself up to a passing grade for the year if we graciously make his score a 50%. It gives him a reason to try. AND he still has to EARN the 70% (a "C") to pull off a "D" for the year. Nobody is going to hand that to him. They aren't giving out "Cs" for breathing. No matter how they score it, the "air breathers" still see an "F" on their final report cards.

 

But if poor Billy's score is a 25% for the first semester, there is no second chance. No matter how hard he works, no matter how much he improves, the likelihood of him passing the course for the year is very slim. So why should he bother to try at all?

[Lovedtodeath]

By these sub par public school citizens do you mean my friend's child who graduated last year with a full ride scholarship to one of the best universities in the state? Do you mean my dd's 8 year old friend who has developed a charity to help animals in need? Do you mean all the kids who are working their tails off for 5 hours plus homework to get straight A's while some of these great and wonderful homeschoolers do 2 hours of work a day and call it "school"? :glare:

 

There are sub par public schoolers, private schoolers, and homeschoolers. Just because a parent and child make one choice over another is not a guarantee of success.

 

As for racial bias on academic tests, it absolutely exists. I would have to see the test in question to specifically look for examples of bias, however so I can not comment on that particular test and would be doing it as a layman, not a professional.

 

I think the term "sub par citizens" in this quote was referring to those who would take advantage of the 50% minimum, not all who attend Public Schools.

 

Well, all I know is that when I was working 2 grade levels above expectations in math, I had a Hispanic friend, a Polish friend, an African friend, and an African American friend right there with me. We had to walk over to the high school from middle school for math class. I think that saying a test is racially biased is saying that there is indeed a difference between what different races of people can accomplish. Isn't that the belief that we want to move away from?

[beansprouts]

Goodness- that's a full 20 points lower than what an "F" is here (70 or below). I could not imagine giving a "D" for a 60% grade. I thought the public school here used a similar system to ours- at least the high school.

 

I believe setting the bar high- very high. That way even if kids don't reach above the bar, you at least get acceptable results.

 

I think it depends on the child. As parents here at home, we can adjust our grading system so our children can still feel a sense of accomplishment, and yet not be discouraged by expectations that seem way too high. For my perfectionist dd it meant adopting a grading system similar to the one proposed in the article. A 100% is an A+, 90% or above is an "A" and 80% or above is a "B". She mostly gets the "A+" but sometimes she scores the "A". She still knows the material, it usually just means she made a mistake. By applying a little grace, she has learned that mistakes are not the end of the world (just trust me on this: they used to devestate her...) Yet, she is still motivated to work for that "A+".If she scores lower than a "B" then we spend a few more days on review then test again (it has only happened once).

[Lovedtodeath]

But 50% is still an "F" (or an "E" or whatever...) Even at his best poor Billy is still failing. However, with extra tutoring, and extra effort, he can still pull himself up to a passing grade for the year if we graciously make his score a 50%. It gives him a reason to try. AND he still has to EARN the 70% (a "C") to pull off a "D" for the year. Nobody is going to hand that to him. They aren't giving out "Cs" for breathing. No matter how they score it, the "air breathers" still see an "F" on their final report cards.

 

But if poor Billy's score is a 25% for the first semester, there is no second chance. No matter how hard he works, no matter how much he improves, the likelihood of him passing the course for the year is very slim. So why should he bother to try at all?

 

:iagree:

[Gretchen in NJ]

I usually fall on the ultra-conservative side of these issues, but this time I actually see their point.

 

 

 

The kid who gets a 20% first semester will need to get 100% second semester to squeak by with a D. This could seem nearly hopeless for a child who struggles academically. However, the kid who has his 20% adjusted to a 50% first semester, will still have to earn the 70% second semester in order to pass the year with a D. Even if he pulls off a 100% second semester, averaged wiith his 50% first semester, he is never going to finish the year with more than a 75% or a C. So the class valedictorian still has nothing to fear from the "air breathers". ;)

Do they only do that for the improving student? Sorry, I did not read the article. The headline turned me off.

[beansprouts]

Do they only do that for the improving student? Sorry, I did not read the article. The headline turned me off.

 

They are doing it for everybody. A 50% is still a failing grade. The student who does not improve still sees an "F" on his report card.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Well, all I know is that when I was working 2 grade levels above expectations in math, I had a Hispanic friend, a Polish friend, an African friend, and an African American friend right there with me. We had to walk over to the high school from middle school for math class. I think that saying a test is racially biased is saying that there is indeed a difference between what different races of people can accomplish. Isn't that the belief that we want to move away from?

 

Not a difference in what races can accomplish, however - especially on reading portions of certain tests- there are examples of cultural nuances that *many* (not all) minorities could struggle with. If a word problem on a test were about something having to do with Kwanzaa, for example, quite a few white children could struggle with such a problem.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

But 50% is still an "F" (or an "E" or whatever...) Even at his best poor Billy is still failing. However, with extra tutoring, and extra effort, he can still pull himself up to a passing grade for the year if we graciously make his score a 50%. It gives him a reason to try. AND he still has to EARN the 70% (a "C") to pull off a "D" for the year. Nobody is going to hand that to him. They aren't giving out "Cs" for breathing. No matter how they score it, the "air breathers" still see an "F" on their final report cards.

 

But if poor Billy's score is a 25% for the first semester, there is no second chance. No matter how hard he works, no matter how much he improves, the likelihood of him passing the course for the year is very slim. So why should he bother to try at all?

 

We could also make things MUCH better by placing kids in classes based on what they are ready to learn, not arbitrarily by age. This would help children who are struggling and those who are ahead.

 

Billy, who is obviously trying to do his best, would not be set up to fail by being put in a class where no matter how hard he tried he could not grasp the material and only scored a 25% for a whole semester.

[beansprouts]

We could also make things MUCH better by placing kids in classes based on what they are ready to learn, not arbitrarily by age. This would help children who are struggling and those who are ahead.

 

Billy, who is obviously trying to do his best, would not be set up to fail by being put in a class where no matter how hard he tried he could not grasp the material and only scored a 25% for a whole semester.

 

But we also have the issue of a child's social status being tied to his academic performance, another problem with institutional schooling ;) If we bump Billy to the "Dumb Class" we will hurt his self esteem, and all his friends will know that he is "Stupid". I am really not sure the schools can win at all. It is simply an impossible task to meet the unique needs of every single student. IMO public schooling is a failed experiment.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

But we also have the issue of a child's social status being tied to his academic performance, another problem with institutional schooling ;) If we bump Billy to the "Dumb Class" we will hurt his self esteem, and all his friends will know that he is "Stupid". I am really not sure the schools can win at all. It is simply an impossible task to meet the unique needs of every single student. IMO public schooling is a failed experiment.

 

But there would be no "dumb class". There would be Reading 101, Reading 201, etc. A kid of 5, a kid of 8, and a kid of 11 could learn the same material side by side in the same class. This is how it was done in a couple of the private schools I attended as a child. No one was in the "dumb class" because a kid could be slower in reading and ahead in math.

[beansprouts]

But there would be no "dumb class". There would be Reading 101, Reading 201, etc. A kid of 5, a kid of 8, and a kid of 11 could learn the same material side by side in the same class. This is how it was done in a couple of the private schools I attended as a child. No one was in the "dumb class" because a kid could be slower in reading and ahead in math.

 

This is an interesting idea...

 

So our hypothetical "Billy" would still have to pass all the courses, he would simply be allowed to do so at his own pace? What happens if the day comes 16 year old Billy finds he is the oldest child in a class of 8 to 12 year olds?

[Nestof3]

By these sub par public school citizens do you mean my friend's child who graduated last year with a full ride scholarship to one of the best universities in the state? Do you mean my dd's 8 year old friend who has developed a charity to help animals in need? Do you mean all the kids who are working their tails off for 5 hours plus homework to get straight A's while some of these great and wonderful homeschoolers do 2 hours of work a day and call it "school"? :glare:

 

There are sub par public schoolers, private schoolers, and homeschoolers. Just because a parent and child make one choice over another is not a guarantee of success.

 

As for racial bias on academic tests, it absolutely exists. I would have to see the test in question to specifically look for examples of bias, however so I can not comment on that particular test and would be doing it as a layman, not a professional.

 

We were discussing students who didn't pass class -- not public school students.

 

And, I would love for you to explain to me how a math test could be discriminatory. Perhaps the blacks and Hispanics just didn't do as well as the others. Do you not think that is possible? Obviously some blacks and Hispanics did fine, but more of them failed vs the other ethnicities, so the standard was lowered.

[siloam]

Ummm...wasn't grades to show how much of the material was mastered? Right?

 

If you get 25% the first half you have to get 100% the last to pass because that is how much of the material you need to master to pass the class.

 

What they have just done is reduce how much material needs to be mastered to pass. No I don't think that is a good thing. If you are going to do that, do it for everyone, not just those who are doing poorly.

 

Really you could say it is discriminatory against the good students. They still have to master the same amount of material. :001_huh: (Jesting here I don't really think the good students will care, they will still be good students.)

 

This is bad because the child is going "pass" but will still have gaps in their knowledge for the next level of classes.

 

In the end I don't think it is better for the student or anyone.

 

Heather