My sister is converting to Islam. Questions RE the logistics of family life.

[AimeeM]

My BIL is Muslim (born and raised). My sister is planning to convert. They currently have one son (my nephew, age 6) and one more on the way :)

 

Nephew has been raised primarily Christian, but BIL has taken him to the mosque fairly often in the past couple years. 

 

They plan to phase out Christmas (with Nephew) over the next couple years. Currently they celebrate the Christian and Muslim holidays.

 

I have a couple questions, after googling the same (lol):

 

1. My sister has always actively attended such things for my children as baptisms (we're Catholic), First Holy Communion, etc. I'm reading that she will no longer be able to do so - that this would be seen as a "betrayal to Islam". Is this true? Should I no longer send them invitations to these celebrations?

 

2. Would it be offensive if I asked her for permission to still get holiday gifts for Nephew? I could use solid-colored paper instead of Christmas wrappings.

 

I can't imagine they would be offended by holiday gifts, as my mother typically gives gifts to BIL during Christmas and he's never been offended, but I don't know what they mean exactly by "phasing out" Christmas. I do plan to ask my sister, but she's absolutely exhausted right now and at the end stage of her pregnancy. 

 

I really hope these aren't offensive questions for the board. I apologize sincerely if they are. I'm just trying to understand more.

[Melissa in Australia]

I am not Muslim so cannot advise from that angle, but I belong to a Christian religion that does not celebrate Christmas.

 

Relatives give gifts to our children at this time of the year. They most often are not wrapped  and I give them to the kids straight away. We understand that around this time of the year people are thinking of giving gifts. We just tell the kids that this is a nice gift from whichever relative. it works fine.

 

I would think that their Phasing out Christmas means that they personally as a family will not be celebrating Christmas any more.

 

 

[Guest]

1-- No, it's not safe to assme anyone would see it as a betrayal of Islam. That's pretty.......stringent. Some people DO feel that way, but in a family where everyone felt comfortable being interfaith and actively involving the mother's Christian beliefs (perfectly Halal, btw, legal eagle), I would seriously don't any offense would be received. Invite away, I say.

 

2-- No. You're very, very nice to consider her feelings. It's a transition.

 

I would bet by "phase out" she means just gradually shift the focus from Christmas to the Eids. Like stop doing santa if they did, or stop going to church (but, again, maybe not on te church thing.) Decorate less, whatever.

 

I may be out of line for saying so, but some times after people convert to Islam (or anything I am sure) they go really strict for a while. Like a few years. They usually lighten up. It's just like SO MUCH to learn, you know? And if you immerse yourself in it, you *feel* like you're really "doing" Islam. I think. I never did, but I saw it happen repeatedly. It's likely not permanent, if it happens at all.

 

Not at all offensive questions to ask!

[Butter]

Ask your sister.  Just because some people would be offended does not mean your sister would be.

 

1.) Even though your kids are of a very different religion than she will be, I am sure she still loves them very much.  I would continue to invite her, but not be upset if she chose not to come.

 

2.) Is there a Muslim winter holiday that includes gift giving?  My siblings and I actually talked about it together a few years ago and decided that there is no need to get the nieces/nephews gifts (for Christmas or birthday).  I've personally always thought it is a little weird that we traditionally give gifts at Christmas and often give gifts year round when I see something awesome or the mood strikes.

 

I assume phasing out Christmas just means their son is used to celebrating Christmas so no longer celebrating it suddenly could be confusing and upset him and so they are going slow with no longer celebrating so he can get used to it and understand the reasoning.

 

ETA: I don't think it is EVER offensive to genuinely ask someone what their feelings are about something.  It's much better than assuming.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Butter

[umsami]

1.  She can still attend those events.  Keep inviviting her.  Just know that convertitis sometimes strikes, and people become more religioius/srict at first.

 

2.  In my years of experience with many reverts, the thing that seems to work best is to honor each other's holidays.  Some families exchange gifts at both Christmas and the Eids with their non-Muslim families.  Some families allow their kids to get Christmas gifts, but then save the gifts they give to Eid, etc.  One weird thing that my family does is we buy the Lego/Playmobil advent calendars at this time of the year and then save them to use during Ramadan. 

 

I'll also add that in some Muslim cultures (Bosnia) they do celebrate the birth of Isa/Jesus....but it's a minority. 

 

If your BIL has been OK with these things, then it shouldn't be an issue going forward.  It can be scary to convert because reality is that a lot of people do lose their family and friends over it.  Any way you can support her, even if it's imperfect, will be appreciated. :)   

 

 

[AimeeM]

Things were tense with BIL regarding holidays for the first couple years. I think, though, that it was difficult for him because of western culture in general (he's from Iraq) and the Christmas season, and the way entire cities deck out for it, can be overwhelming if you aren't used to it.  He's relaxed quite a bit in the past year or two. Me thinks he finally understood that gifts are fun no matter who they come from and no matter what the celebration, lol (he really IS like a really, really tall kid when it comes to presents).

 

ETA: I'm not super concerned about my sister becoming very strict at the beginning. If I'm honest, I have the suspicion that she may have already converted, or has at least been practicing for some time now. She may have been timid about telling the family, though.

Edited December 13, 2015 by AimeeM

[Petrichor]

She probably wouldn't take it as an insult to be invited to Christian ceremonies, though she might choose to opt out of those sort of things for a time. Things often get confusing for people when they start practicing any new faith, and especially with Islam, and there is a tendency to be confused about what is permissible and what is not, and the tendency to say "no" to everything that seems like it might maybe be a little impermissible. 

 

I used to be a bit like that, until I started learning more about Islam, and feeling more comfortable in my beliefs. Once I felt like I understood what was important for me, I started to feel more comfortable around family celebrations that I, as a Muslim, didn't personally believe in, or didn't want my children to think are celebrations for Muslims. We spend time with our non-Muslim family at their celebrations, just for the sake of spending time with family. Not because we are celebrating the holiday or because we believe in the ceremony.

 

Ask your sister about the Christmas presents for her kids. She might want that to stop for a time, so they can understand that they are Muslim now, and they don't celebrate Christmas anymore. At least until she can figure out a way to explain what Christmas is, and why they aren't celebrating it anymore. Or maybe she meant that they wouldn't be coming for Christmas anymore, or that they wont do something else that they may have done in the past - helping with decorations, singing carols, attending Christmas mass - not sure how your family celebrates. Ask her what her plans are for "phasing out Christmas" as she said. 

 

Two major Muslim holidays - Eid ul Fitr and Eid ul Adha, ~7/6/2016, and ~9/12/2016 are perfect gift giving opportunities if your sister requests no gifts this Christmas and/or if you want to give a gift on their holiday. 

 

 

[Guest]

When we converted to Orthodoxy, it was important to my son that we continue to go to Easter at our Protestant church.  So after being up all night for Pascha (which is the way the Orthodox do it), I got up at 10 and took him to the Protestant church.  I did that for 2 years, and my sister did it the third year.  By the fourth year, he was OK with not going anymore, because he had become Orthodox.

 

I would not stop inviting but I would say on the invitation, "No pressure.  I just didn't want you excluded.  Hugs!!!" or something like that.  I have seen the "convertitis"  and the "oh-dear-they-converteditits" in our lives, and the extremity of it changes over the years.  It's not that *everything* changes--it just gets mellower.  It's better to keep doors open than to slam them to find that the other person wants in a few years later.  K?  

 

[Tsuga]

New Years was a very nice holiday time to get together, enjoy good food, and celebrate family for many people across the former secular but in some ways multi-faith USSR. I think you're being very kind and if you'd like to have them for the holidays, inviting them for the New Year and giving the kids a present with a nice little "Happy New Year!" on it could be a nice compromise.

[ktgrok]

New Years was a very nice holiday time to get together, enjoy good food, and celebrate family for many people across the former secular but in some ways multi-faith USSR. I think you're being very kind and if you'd like to have them for the holidays, inviting them for the New Year and giving the kids a present with a nice little "Happy New Year!" on it could be a nice compromise.

 

What a beautiful idea!!!!!  I love this! 

[Tsuga]

What a beautiful idea!!!!!  I love this! 

 

Stalin came up with it to placate a whole bunch of Christians, LOL.

[Audrey]

I never know what to do about the various religious holidays, so I just outright ask the people involved if it would be acceptable if I... invited them somewhere, gave them something, made them something, etc.  I find that if you frame your question with "I'd like to offer you something, but I don't want to assume or offend you..." it goes over pretty well with almost every decent person. 

[Roadrunner]

Yes, in the former Soviet countries Santa comes with gifts on Dec. 31 to all culturally Christian (Russia.....) and culturally Muslim (Azerbaijan...) countries.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Roadrunner

[Guest]

I send my Jewish friends happy holiday cards. Cagey are friends. They know I mean well even when we're not aligned.

[ktgrok]

Stalin came up with it to placate a whole bunch of Christians, LOL.

 

well, that part isn't lovely, lol!  I think his heart was in a different place though. 

[Pamela H in Texas]

I also belong to a Christian religion that doesn't celebrate holidays and generally stays away from most things that are mainstream Christian.  Here is my take.

 

First, I think asking your sister what she wants you to do or not do is the best course of action. 

 

Second, I would be fine with people asking me to events.  IMO, it lets people know you're thinking about them, if nothing else.  Basically, these things are up to your personal conscience.  Where one person may do it, another may not.  So I don't think you can assume she'll attend or not attend.  It is also possible that she will attend one thing but not another; and where they seem quite similar to you, there may be some nuance that makes a difference for her.

 

Third, holidays are another that seem up in the air.  My neighbors across the street are from Iraq.  They've been here 5 years.  They do the holidays for their daughter.  Their 17yo goes to a Christian summer camp.  They are very much observant Muslims, but they do intermingle other things.  On the other hand, we would never do either of those things.  Instead, my mother brings gifts when she visits other times.  My family does "family day" twice a year.  We have other times for presents and celebrating. 

 

Of course, we get together with family when there is time to do so and that often IS around the holidays.  We all give each other a little bit of grace at that point.  

[Spryte]

Slightly different, but similar:  my sister converted to Orthodox Judaism.  They are very strict.  We send Happy Holidays type cards, we don't celebrate Christmas or other Christian holidays together.  At all.  She does call on Xmas to wish another sister happy birthday, but they don't discuss the actual holiday.  We give gifts for Hanukah, though if we didn't have Hanukah as an excuse, I'd make them New Year's gifts. We do invite each other to events.  I go to all of her kids' stuff, and go to Shabbas (spelling?  Sorry, can never get that right.), and generally celebrate with her, on her terms.  I would not invite her to something at a Christian church, but that's not really an issue for us.  She and her kids came to our house once, for a birthday party, but it wasn't easy as I don't keep a Kosher kitchen, so usually we'll meet at my parents', who do keep a Kosher kitchen, just for her.

 

It's different, but I think similar in many ways - with the intersecting of different cultures.  If you want to chat about it, pm me any time.  :)

[Tsuga]

well, that part isn't lovely, lol! I think his heart was in a different place though.

I don't think he had a heart... Seriously though, sometimes compromise and non sectarianism can be used for good.

[Laura Corin]

 

It wasn't just Stalin. Scots party on NYE instead of Christmas Day too.

 

Not wishing to miss out on a party, Scots celebrate both, but NYE tends to be bigger, I think.  Then Burns Night is only three weeks later.

[Tsuga]

Burns night is without a doubt my favorite of all three. Just poetry, haggis, bagpipes and booze. Now that's a holiday!

[EmmaNZ]

you have had great advice, and I agree with it, so I won't repeat it.

 

There is one issue which is difficult for us - a Muslim family with half of our extended family non-Muslim. The issue is alcohol at parties and gatherings. We love getting together with family, we really want to be at your wedding, at your christening etc, but we don't want to be in a room with lots of people drinking. It doesn't matter if you are planning to get really drunk (like at the evening do for a wedding), we would really prefer just to not be around the alcohol at all.

 

We are in Europe, and I get the impression that alcohol and events is a bigger thing here, but I still think it is worth letting you know. To that end, we usually go the the church ceremony for something, but skip the meal or gathering afterwards.

[ktgrok]

you have had great advice, and I agree with it, so I won't repeat it.

 

There is one issue which is difficult for us - a Muslim family with half of our extended family non-Muslim. The issue is alcohol at parties and gatherings. We love getting together with family, we really want to be at your wedding, at your christening etc, but we don't want to be in a room with lots of people drinking. It doesn't matter if you are planning to get really drunk (like at the evening do for a wedding), we would really prefer just to not be around the alcohol at all.

 

We are in Europe, and I get the impression that alcohol and events is a bigger thing here, but I still think it is worth letting you know. To that end, we usually go the the church ceremony for something, but skip the meal or gathering afterwards.

 

Question, is this a religious thing, that you aren't "allowed" for lack of a better term, to be around people who are drinking? Or is it that not being drinkers, you just aren't comfortable around it, in general? Either way makes sense, I'm just curious. 

 

I can definitely see that being difficult. Not having wine/champagne at a wedding would be very unusual here, I think I've been to one wedding reception without any alcohol and that was because the bride and groom were both recovering alcoholics. Heck, even the church service has alcohol if you count communion wine...but then again, if half my family couldn't come if there was alcohol due to religious reasons that would be important to factor in as well. 

 

I dislike being around drunk people, but not being places where someone might have a glass of wine, that's another level. Does this apply to restuarants that serve alcohol as well?

Edited December 15, 2015 by ktgrok

[Carrie12345]

I would ask her directly, and get that dialogue open for whatever else pops up beyond the holidays.

 

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that Muslim families are nearly as varied as Christian (or whatever) families.  Even within the same sect, I have relatives that observe/abide by/believe a whole range of things.

[chiguirre]

Not wishing to miss out on a party, Scots celebrate both, but NYE tends to be bigger, I think.  Then Burns Night is only three weeks later.

Venezuelans, too. New Year's is the BIG holiday celebration. We have lots of New Year's songs and traditions.

 

OP, you might like to eat 12 grapes on the strokes of midnight instead of toasting with alcohol. (Just don't choke, it's harder than it sounds at first.)

 

We also shoot off firecrackers which I'm sure will be on sale in your vicinity. (Keep an eye out for Florida Man, he's just the sort to blow off a finger fooling with the merchandise).

 

You, too, can cause cell phone networks to jam as you call every aunt, uncle and distant cousin to wish them "Happy New Year" on the stroke of midnight.

 

We like to take an empty suitcase and run around the house to make sure we'll travel in the new year. (Even dh who travels about 1/2 his work life does this, traditions die hard.)

 

Lentils will ensure your prosperity in the new year, or at least a yummy dinner on January 1st. (Ditto yellow underwear--yes, I'm serious.)

 

I'm sure there are lots of other things you can do to make your holiday celebrations special, but if you're feeling tropical these will set you on your way to an excellent New Year's Eve with family.

[EmmaNZ]

Question, is this a religious thing, that you aren't "allowed" for lack of a better term, to be around people who are drinking? Or is it that not being drinkers, you just aren't comfortable around it, in general? Either way makes sense, I'm just curious. 

 

I can definitely see that being difficult. Not having wine/champagne at a wedding would be very unusual here, I think I've been to one wedding reception without any alcohol and that was because the bride and groom were both recovering alcoholics. Heck, even the church service has alcohol if you count communion wine...but then again, if half my family couldn't come if there was alcohol due to religious reasons that would be important to factor in as well. 

 

I dislike being around drunk people, but not being places where someone might have a glass of wine, that's another level. Does this apply to restuarants that serve alcohol as well?

Well, from my point of view I see this as a case of not being 'allowed'. But as you can guess there are almost as many different ways of interpreting that ruling as there are muslims in America! 

 

My family does try not to eat at restaurants where alcohol is served, we try not to be in places where people are drinking. We do make exceptions in some circumstances, and sometimes we literally have no choice, but would never make an exception for something as alcohol fuelled as an english wedding reception. And we never go into a pub, even if it is for a meeting or something.

[ktgrok]

Well, from my point of view I see this as a case of not being 'allowed'. But as you can guess there are almost as many different ways of interpreting that ruling as there are muslims in America! 

 

My family does try not to eat at restaurants where alcohol is served, we try not to be in places where people are drinking. We do make exceptions in some circumstances, and sometimes we literally have no choice, but would never make an exception for something as alcohol fuelled as an english wedding reception. And we never go into a pub, even if it is for a meeting or something.

 

Thank you for clarifying! I hope I wasn't offensive. That makes sense.

[idnib]

It's best to just ask. Everyone is so different.

 

My DH's side of the family are all Christian except him. They were supportive and very gracious when he became Muslim, but of course it must have been difficult for them. My in-laws send small gifts (under $30) at Christmas and the kids understand that it makes them happy to be able to send Christmas gifts to their only grandchildren. In turn we send a box of chocolates and give them each a book and that's it. We don't exchange any gifts with the rest of the family, nor do we visit for Christmas or anything like that. I like this compromise and it works for our family. Someone else would probably be upset if their in-laws sent Christmas presents. It's very individual.

 

None of them have invited us to any particularly Christian events like baptisms or communions, but if we were invited we would absolutely go.

 

Before giving any gifts to the kids for the Eids, I would check in with the parents. Some Muslims, esp in the U.S. where people are really into Christmas gifts, are wary of Muslims holidays becoming commercialized and gift-focused. Some Muslims give children small amounts of cash ($5-$20) called "Eidee" or the gifts are very small. It's an austere religion.  :)  Also be aware the holidays move (lunar vs. solar calendar) so if you do decide to go ahead with Eid gifts, they won't be the same dates every year. After a few years, they will be in a completely different season, even.

[EmmaNZ]

Thank you for clarifying! I hope I wasn't offensive. That makes sense.

Not offensive  :001_smile:

[AimeeM]

Thanks guys :)

 

I do not think DH would be okay with forgoing alcohol for all celebrations and events, especially considering Mass includes wine and Mass comes along with the sacraments. With that said, BIL and his family do not seem adverse to attending events with alcohol. 

 

We always make sure that there are pork-free foods available already for BIL, even when there's only just a chance of him coming.