Sort of afraid to post... but, who was right... me or crossing guard?

[bettyandbob]

I walk my son to middle school (he has disabilities) daily. Other children are walking alone. The intersection we have to cross is quite busy but has no light. The crossing guard drops all traffic.

 

At the intersection with a light for students coming the other direction, the light has a button for pedestrians. The lights turn red in all directions for pedestrians.

 

Based in experiences where I live, I would assume you could not enter the intersection at all.

[TeenagerMom]

http://drivinginstructorblog.com/q-should-i-pull-into-the-intersection-when-im-turning-left/

 

According to this driver ed blog, you were right.

 

This is what my state law says and it also shows that you were right: "One may advance into the intersection as a prelude to turning, provided that no other traffic control signals prohibit this action."

 

Here, a Crossing Guard with a Stop sign would prohibit the action because Pedestrians were in the crosswalk across the street that she was turning onto.

[Lucy the Valiant]

I've lived in places where it was never necessary to pull into the intersection to make a left turn. Later, in much more urban places, I've encountered intersections where the traffic was so constant and dense that pulling into the intersection, and turning at that moment where yellow meets red, was your ONLY chance to get through and only ONE car gets through per light. These are places that NEED left turn lights but inexplicably don't have them yet.

 

Yes, this. And then - to my surprise - when living in Boston, I was introduced to the concept of intentionally cutting off oncoming traffic if you're the 1st car turning left. It took me forever to figure out why people were honking at me! I had certainly been taught to never do that, but in parts of Boston, it's the only way anyone ever turns left, and by not "jump-turning," I was holding everyone back.

 

Good grief.

 

 

(Where I live now, there are no crossing guards where there are street lights.)

[Kathryn]

Yes, this. And then - to my surprise - when living in Boston, I was introduced to the concept of intentionally cutting off oncoming traffic if you're the 1st car turning left. It took me forever to figure out why people were honking at me! I had certainly been taught to never do that, but in parts of Boston, it's the only way anyone ever turns left, and by not "jump-turning," I was holding everyone back.

 

Good grief.

 

 

(Where I live now, there are no crossing guards where there are street lights.)

Ha! I'd begun to think I had imagined this many years ago. The summer I learned to drive we were visiting my grandparents in Boston and it was very disorienting.

[Reflections]

You know, I have no idea whether you were right or wrong BUT I do know that the crossing guard never should have yelled at you like that nor should have done it for that long.  I'm sorry that happened.  It's happened to me too (have someone freak out like that) and it left me upset for awhile.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[bettyandbob]

Crossing guards take their job seriously.

 

A crossing guard saved my dd's life a few years ago. I wasn't there to witness and there were no injuries, but the incident occurred at a major intersection for the high school and police ended up investigating because my dd had almost been hit.

 

When I walk my ds to school I have witnessed cars to try drive through after the crossing guard has stopped traffic, creating problems for pedestrians.

 

If a driver is not responding to the crossing guard's whistle or stop sign, I see no reason why the crossing guard cannot yell. The crossing guard needs to get the driver's attention.

[TechWife]

Can I diagram this?

 

kid here

 

c

r

o

s

s

i....................... :)

n

g

 

h

e

r

e

I am where these XXXXX are. Turning left into children. But I just pulled straight to where smile is.

 

As long as you did not actually enter the crosswalk and you weren't blocking the intersection where you were stopped, you were fine. 

 

If you did either of these things, you weren't. Pedestrians in a cross walk always have the right of way and legally, you aren't supposed to pull into an intersection unless you can travel all the way through it safely. Our local police are sticklers for both of these laws. 

 

[TechWife]

In the two states I have had a drivers license in, you aren't supposed to enter an intersection unless you can clear the intersection.  So, if you know ahead of time that you are going to have to stop in the intersection, you are not supposed to enter it.  This would be an obvious example of this.  You saw the kids. Their light to cross would happen at the same time your light would turn green.  You have to yield to any pedestrian that is crossing within a marked crossing or with a crossing guard. Since you presumably know their light would turn green, and there were children present, you must not enter the intersection until you know you can clear it completely.  

 

 

Well, I should have finished reading responses before I wrote mine, because this is exactly my experience. 

[TechWife]

I thought if you sat in an intersection and turned after the light turned red, that it was a red light violation. Obviously people do it all the time, but I thought it was against the law.

 

Although I do agree with the crossing guard. You should have waited. I'm sorry.

 

Sitting in the intersection is against the law here. 

 

Entering the intersection can take place on a green or an "amber" light. Since drivers aren't supposed to sit in them, they should finish crossing through the intersection before the light turns red, unless they chose to enter the intersection on that amber light by the skin of their teeth, in which case the driver likely had time to stop and chose not to. Crossing over the white line when the light is red is a moving violation, but once in an intersection, the driver should not stop. So, if the entry occurs on an amber light and the light turns red as the vehicle is moving through the intersection, the driver should continue.

 

I have been t-boned twice by someone who ran a red light - it is a scary accident which has the potential to cause injuries and serious car damage. I can't imagine entering an intersection knowing I might not make it through before my light turned red. I have had to make a few exceptions in crazy busy cities, but that's one of the reasons I use public transit in large cities as much as possible - people drive crazy! 

 

Bikes - we should all ride bikes.

Edited December 11, 2015 by TechWife

[EmseB]

Here it is legal to enter an intersection to turn left on a green light even if you can't complete the turn right away. The expectation is that you complete the turn when the light turns red and oncoming traffic stops. Otherwise, in some places, where there is no turn lane and no left turn light, no one would ever get through an intersection.

 

ETA, I'm not in AL, but this article sums up the legalities where I am:http://blog.al.com/breaking/2010/11/post_480.html

Edited December 11, 2015 by JodiSue

[Carrie12345]

I think the problem is that there shouldn't be a crossing guard where there is a light.  That is two different sets of instructions to follow, and hence confusing.  Since there is light, there should be a walk/don't walk sign for pedestrians that are timed to walk them through while everyone is on red.

 

I drive through a small city during school commuting time, where there are crossing guards at nearly every traffic light.  It DOES drive me batty, trying to watch the light, judge the kids' distance to the corner, and brace for the possibility that the guard will jog out while I have a green.  It's only actually happened maybe twice (they usually seem to wait for the red), but now I'm always anxious.

 

The one light my own kids have to cross regularly doesn't have a pedestrian signal.  My kids didn't have any trouble picking up the crossing rules*, but I still get nervous about drivers.  So I can understand having guards, but ones who understand driving rules, please!

 

*While they understand, I have had a 4yo throw a tantrum in the middle of the road while my hands were full, and he was throwing everything in his hands on the ground.  As the light changed. Good times.

[TeenagerMom]

Found in California Crossing Guard Training book:

 

12

Alerting Traffic and Indicating

Pedestrian Crossing

CAMUTCD

Section 7D.05 describes operating procedures for Crossing Guards:

Adult crossing guards shall not direct traffic in the usual law enforcement regulatory sense. In the control of traffic, they shall pick opportune times to create a sufficient gap in the traffic flow. At these times, they shall stand in the roadway to indicate that pedestrians are about to use or are using

the crosswalk, and that all vehicular traffic must stop. Adult crossing guards shall use a STOP paddle. The STOP paddle shall be the primary hand-signaling device.

Understanding Applicable Traffic Regulations

 

California Vehicle Code (CVC) includes rules that right of way

at crosswalks, and parking or stopping at or near

crosswalks. Although drivers do not always comply

with these rules,

and Crossing Guards should not

depend on them to do so, Crossing Guards should

understand the legal basis that supports school

crossings.

CVC

Section 2815

describes rules pertaining tononstudent crossing guards:

Any person who shall disregard any traffic signal or direction

given by a nonstudent school crossing guard,

appointed pursuant to Section 21100, or

authorized by any city police department,

any board of supervisors of a county, or

the Department of the California Highway

Patrol, when the guard is wearing the

official

insignia of such a school crossing

guard, and when in the course of the

guard's duties the guard is protecting any

person in crossing a street or highway in

the vicinity of a school or while returning

thereafter to a place of safety, shall be

guilty of an

infraction and subject to the

penalties provided in Section 42001

Edited December 11, 2015 by DrStix

[vonfirmath]

So, all traffic should be stopped going all directions? Like with a school bus?

 

I would assume all traffic stopped going all directions like with a school bus. That is what they do around here where kids are walking.

[vonfirmath]

If I thought it would be an endless cycle of children crossing and the light being too short for me to go, I think I would just turn right and then turn around somewhere else so I got a green to go straight. Avoid the whole "can I go yet?" scenario. But I'm a paranoid driver.

 

I have no idea what the legal choice is in your scenario. I am sure she was yelling because she had no way of knowing your intentions. When in doubt, go another route? lol

 

This is me. At busy times, on short lights, I don't turn left. I turn right and get turned around or go straight through and get turned around, depending on which is more reliable.

[Mimm]

Even if the crossing guard was right, screaming at the drivers for prolonged periods of time when no one was actually in danger or even inconvenienced sounds like seriously unhinged behavior and I would consider reporting her to whoever her bosses are.

[Bluegoat]

So - my overall impression here is that the law differs.  It seems like in some places, if there is a crossing guard out, it means all traffic stops, like with an emergency vehicle or school bus.

 

I guess that it should be expected though that when local laws like that differ, people will make errors.  Those details that are not uniform are often going to cause a little confusion.

 

In the city where my sister used to live, they actually had a law that said school busses were not allowed to stop all traffic.  Lots of people got mixed up about that, thinking they had to stop, and annoying the local drivers.

[QueenCat]

I'm glad I saw your diagram. I'd have been livid if I saw you do that and my child were in the intersection. Where I'm at, and every where I've ever lived as a driver, you would have been in the wrong. For two reasons........ you can't sit in an intersection as you don't enter one you can't clear. And two, pedestrians take precedence and you don't turn towards their path while anyone is in any part of that path. It sounds to me like it looked like you were going to cut off the pedestrians, even if that wasn't your intent, and that scared the cr*p out of the crossing guard. Here, a police officer would ticket you for at least one offense if he saw you.

[Mom22ns]

My older teens who have gone through drivers ed tell me that they're taught it's wrong to pull into and sit in an intersection waiting to turn left.  They were told you're supposed to wait back where you were and only go forward if you can keep going to complete the left turn (i.e., no cars -- or children -- in the way). 

 

My niece got a ticket for pulling into the intersection and waiting for the opportunity to turn, then turning as oncoming traffic was stopped by the light. The police officer told her that it is illegal here, but in the neighboring state where she is from it is legal. He said he tickets out state drivers for it all the time.

 

So if you were in my state, you were wrong and she was right. If you were in the state next door, you were right. I have no idea what state you were in or if it is legal there.

[goldberry]

In Colorado, the law is that you may not enter an intersection that you cannot clear before the light turns red.  

 

Therefore, you are not allowed to pull up if the crosswalk is blocked, because you don't know if you can clear the intersection.  In Colorado what you did would be illegal. But I probably would have done the same thing.

 

There is one particular intersection close to our house with no left turn signal that if you do not pull up you will basically never get across.  I have explained to DD that it is illegal to pull up, but I will still be doing it. If I get a ticket, I won't argue about it. 

[milovany]

I'm glad I saw your diagram. I'd have been livid if I saw you do that and my child were in the intersection. Where I'm at, and every where I've ever lived as a driver, you would have been in the wrong. For two reasons........ you can't sit in an intersection as you don't enter one you can't clear. And two, pedestrians take precedence and you don't turn towards their path while anyone is in any part of that path. It sounds to me like it looked like you were going to cut off the pedestrians, even if that wasn't your intent, and that scared the cr*p out of the crossing guard. Here, a police officer would ticket you for at least one offense if he saw you.

 

But you're somewhat mistaken on a couple of points.  As pointed out throughout this thread, practice and law differ from place to place.  In some places, you can sit in an intersection waiting to turn left. I read about our state law last night, and the interpretation of it by state troopers and drivers ed instructors, and it can easily be interpreted both ways. As to your second point, from what I understand, it's fine to turn left after the pedestrians have cleared the lanes you're turning into as they cross the street, meaning once they are in front of the cars that are stopped (I guess a simpler way to say it would be, once they're half way across).  Now that wouldn't/shouldn't be the case with school children who are crossing the street (cars should wait until they're on the sidewalk on the other side), but to say "while anyone is in any part of the path" isn't quite correct.  We have a five lane wide busy intersection in the college town where I live and once the college students have gotten half way across (and no more are rushing to cross quickly before the light turns), we go. 

 

ETA Plus, I believe the OP said that wasn't turned at all, just sitting there with her wheels aimed straight forward, waiting to turn.

Edited December 11, 2015 by milovany

[Stacia]

I think what you were doing was right (at least by how traffic behaves in my area) re: pulling in the intersection & waiting to turn left, then turning once the pedestrians have cleared the crosswalk. (I don't pull forward unless I can see that I will be able to go ahead & turn because I've almost been t-boned more than once by people running red lights from the perpendicular street; or, doing so can leave you stranded out in the middle of the intersection, blocking traffic. But all that's not really what you're asking.)

 

I think following that set-up is fine as long as there is not a police officer or crossing guard in the intersection. If there is, that person supersedes the light.

 

So, in your situation, the crossing guard overrides the signal & will give the signals instead of the light. (In my area, the only crossing guard I see regularly is at a 4-way stop w/ a flashing light. The guard will routinely wave a lot of cars through at once, no need for each car to come to a complete stop, or have everyone stopped in all directions when there are kids crossing.)

 

:grouphug:

[TranquilMind]

I got yelled at by a crossing guard, and I'm wondering if I actually broke the law, just made her nervous, or if I was in the right.

 

I was attempting to make a left hand turn from a small street onto a major street. This is a very short light because the major street gets the long green. There is no green turn signal. You get a green light to go straight or turn left. Children were crossing the major street (walking along the small street).

 

The light turned green and I pulled straight into the intersection. My thinking was that if I waited for children to cross completely, the light would be red again. And then more kids would come. And then I would be stuck. And repeat. My thinking was to get into intersection and even if the light turned red, I could legally turn because I was in the intersection.

 

I pulled out straight and sat waiting for kids to cross. A crossing guard went crazy. Screaming at me, "You are supposed to wait!!! What are you doing!! Wait!! Stop!!!" Was shaking her sign at me. Now, I would have gone straight with no thought. So, was it wrong for me to pull out and stop?

 

The kids were completely crossed and she was still standing in the intersection screaming at me while I sat there baffled. And, there was nothing I could do at that point. A car had already pulled up behind me. I couldn't back up.

 

Did I break the law? Is this a school bus, everyone stops sort of situation? I felt really bad. I run a lot and pedestrian safety is important to me.

You are supposed to wait at the light until all is clear, and then pull out into the intersection. You don't pull into the intersection and then wait.

[Bluegoat]

But you're somewhat mistaken on a couple of points.  As pointed out throughout this thread, practice and law differ from place to place.  In some places, you can sit in an intersection waiting to turn left. I read about our state law last night, and the interpretation of it by state troopers and drivers ed instructors, and it can easily be interpreted both ways. As to your second point, from what I understand, it's fine to turn left after the pedestrians have cleared the lanes you're turning into as they cross the street, meaning once they are in front of the cars that are stopped (I guess a simpler way to say it would be, once they're half way across).  Now that wouldn't/shouldn't be the case with school children who are crossing the street (cars should wait until they're on the sidewalk on the other side), but to say "while anyone is in any part of the path" isn't quite correct.  We have a five lane wide busy intersection in the college town where I live and once the college students have gotten half way across (and no more are rushing to cross quickly before the light turns), we go. 

 

ETA Plus, I believe the OP said that wasn't turned at all, just sitting there with her wheels aimed straight forward, waiting to turn.

Now, here, though you are supposed to pull out into the intersection, you cannot make the turn until the pedestrians are all the way across.  The exception is if there is a median - than you can turn once they have crossed the median.

[Kathryn]

I'm really surprised to learn that the rules differ on this. I never knew it was illegal some places to pull into the intersection and wait to be able to turn left. It seems like you'd never be able to turn left at some intersections with that rule.

[38carrots]

Mine started ps in middle school and had crossing guards at a large intersection. When kids were crossing, no cars were allowed to move.

 

 

Also, I'm surprised how many pull out into the intersection waiting to turn. It's something dh and I never do and we don't have trouble eventually turning (never been honked at for not doing so either).

 

I was taught to pull into an intersection (on a green light) for a left turn. How else would you make a left turn without pulling into the intersection?? Here you'd get honked for not pulling in, it is simply not how it's done. Maybe it depends whether one is rural vs urban?

[38carrots]

You are supposed to wait at the light until all is clear, and then pull out into the intersection. You don't pull into the intersection and then wait.

 

Not where I live. I'd never be able to make a left turn if I waited until all is clear. At best only one car would get a chance to make the light.

[Bluegoat]

I was taught to pull into an intersection (on a green light) for a left turn. How else would you make a left turn without pulling into the intersection?? Here you'd get honked for not pulling in, it is simply not how it's done. Maybe it depends whether one is rural vs urban?

I don't think so.  But - I wonder if road widths makes a difference.  I'm in the east, and a lot of roads are very narrow.  If people didn't pull out, in many cases no one could go straight through either.

[bettyandbob]

I'm really surprised to learn that the rules differ on this. I never knew it was illegal some places to pull into the intersection and wait to be able to turn left. It seems like you'd never be able to turn left at some intersections with that rule.

 

most places you can pull into the intersection and wait when you are just waiting for cars to clear. This is probably true in the presence of general pedestrians as well.

 

The OP has described an instance where a crossing guard is present to ensure safe crossing for school children. Obviously, that instance happens only twice a day on weekdays most places. Many localities have laws specific to such crossings. The OP needs to look up the laws in her area for school zones. 

 

With regard to the yelling, keep in mind the crossing has a dangerous job standing in the middle of traffic usually at rush hour twice a day. She is tasked with keeping a lot of children safe. So, her priority is to make sure drivers know where they are and are not supposed to be and she will use the tools she has to make that known (sign, whistle and yelling--talking in traffic is not going to work). 

[QueenCat]

But you're somewhat mistaken on a couple of points.  As pointed out throughout this thread, practice and law differ from place to place.  In some places, you can sit in an intersection waiting to turn left. I read about our state law last night, and the interpretation of it by state troopers and drivers ed instructors, and it can easily be interpreted both ways. As to your second point, from what I understand, it's fine to turn left after the pedestrians have cleared the lanes you're turning into as they cross the street, meaning once they are in front of the cars that are stopped (I guess a simpler way to say it would be, once they're half way across).  Now that wouldn't/shouldn't be the case with school children who are crossing the street (cars should wait until they're on the sidewalk on the other side), but to say "while anyone is in any part of the path" isn't quite correct.  We have a five lane wide busy intersection in the college town where I live and once the college students have gotten half way across (and no more are rushing to cross quickly before the light turns), we go. 

 

ETA Plus, I believe the OP said that wasn't turned at all, just sitting there with her wheels aimed straight forward, waiting to turn.

 

I started off with "where I'm at" so no, I'm not mistaken about "where I'm at". Where I'm at, one does not pull into the intersection legally if one cannot make the turn.

[QueenCat]

I was taught to pull into an intersection (on a green light) for a left turn. How else would you make a left turn without pulling into the intersection?? Here you'd get honked for not pulling in, it is simply not how it's done. Maybe it depends whether one is rural vs urban?

 

The three states where I've been licensed in would have you pull into the intersection once it was safe to make the full turn. Really not difficult. I do it all the time.

[EmseB]

The three states where I've been licensed in would have you pull into the intersection once it was safe to make the full turn. Really not difficult. I do it all the time.

It is difficult if you are at a light with no left turn signal and traffic coming the opposite direction does not clear until rush hour is over.

[38carrots]

The three states where I've been licensed in would have you pull into the intersection once it was safe to make the full turn. Really not difficult. I do it all the time.

 

It doesn't seem to me even safe! When I'm already in the intersection it is easier and safer to find a space between cars and make the turn. Plus the person behind you will have a chance to make the turn when the light changes and there's no more oncoming traffic. In any city I've lived to and visited, if you don't pull in, you never get to the state of "it is safe to make the full turn!" Unless there's no traffic, but then you just make the turn.

 

People here have vastly different driving experiences. Very interesting, actually!

[QueenCat]

It is difficult if you are at a light with no left turn signal and traffic coming the opposite direction does not clear until rush hour is over.

 

It sure is.............. fortunately, around here, most of the heavy intersections do have turn lights. It's generally not a problem other than during rush hour. I just avoid the intersections where making a left is difficult.

[QueenCat]

It doesn't seem to me even safe! When I'm already in the intersection it is easier and safer to find a space between cars and make the turn. Plus the person behind you will have a chance to make the turn when the light changes and there's no more oncoming traffic. In any city I've lived to and visited, if you don't pull in, you never get to the state of "it is safe to make the full turn!" Unless there's no traffic, but then you just make the turn.

 

People here have vastly different driving experiences. Very interesting, actually!

 

Most of the accidents around here are when people pull out to wait to turn. And then end up getting hit when they try to make an unsafe left. It is the norm here to wait to enter the intersection until you can make the full turn and I don't hear about a problem with accidents related to it. But the larger intersections do have turn lights. Actually, even many of the smaller ones do as well.

[goldberry]

It is difficult if you are at a light with no left turn signal and traffic coming the opposite direction does not clear until rush hour is over.

 

It is difficult.  Still illegal in some states. I see why, because when so many people run red lights at the last minute, you are waiting for the oncoming traffic to stop at the red light.  If someone runs the red light when you think they are going to stop, you will be hit.  And technically, both of you were out in the intersection during the red light.

 

I see why it is illegal (in my state), but yes, you would never get across otherwise in some cases.

[Tsuga]

Not where I live. I'd never be able to make a left turn if I waited until all is clear. At best only one car would get a chance to make the light.

 

While that is true, that is why many roads around here have "no left turn between x a.m. and y a.m. and a p.m. and b p.m." and still other places, only fools try to turn left. It's simply not safe or considerate to try to make a left turn on certain streets at certain times.

 

Instead, turn right then go around.

 

Yes, I plan that into my day if for any reason I have to pick up or drop off my daughter at school. On one street you aren't allowed to make a left turn at that hour, and on the next street I need to turn on to, you technically can but you'll just be blocking traffic behind you as you wait for a safe time to turn for 30 minutes or more.

 

So... I do what most do and turn right out of the parking lot and then make a left at a light with a left-turn signal or in a safer spot, further away from the school.

 

It takes forever which is a huge reason we don't do drop off or pick up!

[Daria]

I have no idea about the law, but I've been the one standing in the middle of the road with kids crossing behind me many times, as I've worked at several schools without playgrounds, where we walked several blocks to a public park for recess.

 

Standing in the street, with precious kids behind you,  while traffic drives towards you is an incredibly vulnerable feeling.  I've had people pull up close and stop suddenly, as if to intimidate.  I've had people cuss me out.  I've had people who kept inching towards me. I've also had one driver whose car was completely stopped at a red light when I walked in front of them, pull into the intersection and hit me, while their light was still red.  All of these things are scary, made more scary by the knowledge that moving out of the way is simply not an option, because of the kids.