Math u see... Honest opinions.

[sunshineslp]

Back story: we tried MUS last year when my boys were in K and 1. My K'er liked it but my 1st grader hated it. Said "this again!!" Every day. So we went back to RS. however, now we are done with RS B and I want to switch (not interested in RS past level B). I have been seriously entertaining Singapore. I love the looks of it. It looks fun! So today I called MUS to ask a few questions. I have reservations on this program but I do like its philosophy. Anyway, I showed my 2nd grader (who hated mus last year) samples of mus online and he LOVED IT. what?!?! Lol. Now he's begging me to use it. I'm concerned we will have the same issues (he seems to move quickly and gets things quickly). Should I try it since he's open to it? Or just go with Singapore? Any MUS users... I'm worried about the scope and sequence putting my kids behind? And is it going to prepare them for college? Is it heavy enough on mental math? Can he stop using the blocks if he doesn't want to?

 

Singapore or MUS...

 

p.s.- I have four kids I'll be teaching so I'd be using it for my older two boys for now...

 

 

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Edited December 2, 2015 by sunshineslp

[HomeAgain]

MUS follows the three step lesson:

 

1. introduce the topic.

2. work with the blocks/paper.

3. teach it back to the parent.

4. move on. 

 

We never finished every page in MUS.  There were some chapters he could go through all three steps in the first day so he did a review page, tested out of the chapter, and moved to the next.

 

I think it prepares a child for college math well, but we stopped after Pre-Algebra and moved to AOPS.  The strong foundation of MUS helped immensely.

[sunshineslp]

Thank you:) interesting, I've read several people say they did that too. They felt the algebra was too watered down. So moving to AOPS was smooth?

 

 

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[HomeAgain]

Thank you:) interesting, I've read several people say they did that too. They felt the algebra was too watered down. So moving to AOPS was smooth?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No, there were tears. LOL We should have started with their pre-algebra but I was hard-headed.  It approaches math a different way from MUS and there was certainly a learning curve, but he did well once he got through it.

 

I want to clarify that we changed not because we thought MUS was watered down, but because I wanted to prepare him for learning more than one way. The split between basic and higher mathematics was the perfect time to do it.  AOPS brought a puzzle element into it that he now appreciates.  When we started MUS, he thought he was bad at math.  Since MUS doesn't have grade levels and was very step by step, it built his confidence back up.  He could move as fast or slow as needed and was required to show what he had learned. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I can only comment on Algebra 1.  I used it as our pre algebra (we used Singapore prior).  My kid was a bit young so I wanted something gentle but challenging enough.

 

Honestly, it seemed very watered down to me.  They do add in some honor's problems.  I often found with those that the explanation of the topics were not robust enough to make some of those problems doable. 

 

Maybe the levels below that are better?  No clue. 

[sweetpea3829]

You've read some of my opinion on MUS already but....

 

The program has some great points and some weak points. IMO, for the average math student, the weak points of MUS outweigh the strengths. It is a great program for kids that need incremental, step-by-step hand-holding.

 

I use it quite successfully with my dyscalculic DD. She is making great strides with it in terms of learning how to "do math". Sure is not making much progress in understanding "how" to do math, if that makes sense.

 

In other words, procedural growth, but little conceptual growth. That is not necessarily a reflection of MUS, though.

 

Strengths:

 

Very incremental.

Hands-on.

Excellent visual representation with the manipulatives.

Excellent lead-in to understanding mental math (ie parts and wholes).

Does a great job teaching kids to how to manipulate numbers/quantities.

 

 

Weaknesses:

Very little depth

VERY weak in problem-solving instruction (as in, there is none...so far at least and we are well into the third level).

Very incremental (a strength for some but a weakness for others).

Steve's videos sometimes have mistakes and while some may not have a problem with that, for my kiddo, it upped her confusion.

TOO mastery. Actually, this is a strength for my daughter but for most kids, spending an entire book (at least a full semester) on one topic is onerous. My eldest son would have needed the first four MUS books to touch on all of the topics he converted in Singapore grade 1.

 

 

If your state requires testing, MUS may be a poor choice depending on which grade level you must test. If you figure a book a school year, your third grader will not have seen real division yet, and that may be a grade level expectation, kwim.

 

 

Personally, I like using parts of MUS with my NT kids while keeping Singapore as their main spine. We used it to build confidence with my middle boy when he floundered with Singapore last year.

 

We used it to establish good number sense with my youngest boy.

 

Occasionally, I'll take the blocks out to discuss place value. Even bar models, sometimes.

 

It had its good points. I just find it to be weak overall. It will cover most of what your student NEEDS but not much else. Some kids need that. But for most, I think there is real value in exploring math to a greater depth.

[Pen]

MUS is fine, especially at elementary level. Anything your ds does not need, he does not need to use, consider the blocks an aid if needed, not a requirement if they are not.  I regret though not having let my ds just play with the blocks as toys since I think this might have helped him rather than keeping them for "math"...how silly of me.

 

When your ds has done enough pages to get a lesson let him move on, when done with a level, move on.  MUS can work well for both kids having trouble who need more practice and also ones who can sail through quickly and only need a page or two of each lesson to get it.

[Sunshine State Sue]

We used MUS from K through Algebra way before online was available (and we wouldn't have used online anyway).  Here is my review.

 

Math-U-See website is:  www.mathusee.com.  There is a placement test at the website.

 

I think MUS is terrific in the elementary years!  We completed MUS from K through Algebra.

 

The advantage for the teacher is that the program is laid out so well.  I spend a maximum of 15 minutes a week preparing for the lesson.  Each teacher's book comes with a DVD or video, where Steve Demme teaches each lesson in front of a small group of kids.  This helps me with ideas on how to present the lesson to my son.  The DVD basically repeats what is said in the teacher's manual, but somehow it helps me to see it.  I watched the video religiously for the first few years.  Now, I just read the teacher’s lesson, which has the same information, and present the lesson to my son.  Some parents have their kids watch the DVD with them.  Some parents have their kids watch the DVD without them.

 

The advantage for the children is that each lesson works on a particular skill and yet lays the foundation for advanced material.  While they are teaching addition, they have problems like 5+A=12.  Because of problems like this, when it came time to do subtraction, my son already knew it.  They teach skip counting in K-1st.  After they teach skip counting by 5s, they teach reading a clock to the 5-10-15... minutes.  After they teach skip counting by 7s, they ask how many days in x number of weeks.  So, they apply skip counting right away.  While they teach skip counting, they have the children figure out the area of a rectangle using their skip counting.  So, they are teaching multiplication before they have even heard the word or seen 5x3=15.  While they are formally teaching multiplication, they have problems like 6xA=24.  Because of problems like this, when it came time to do division, my son already knew it.  In fact, he said 'This is the easiest thing I've ever learned'.  Throughout Alpha through Zeta, they are solving for the unknown, which is preparing them for algebra.

 

They use blocks as manipulatives.  The blocks are kind of like legos in that it is easy to tell the number of each block.  When they add 5+7, they take a 5 block, stack a 7 block on top of it, then side by side, they put a 10 block and a 2 block.  It's easy to SEE the answer.  They use the blocks to teach multiplication.  When they multiply 12x13, they use a red 100 block with 2 blue 10 blocks on the right hand side to show 12 columns.  They use 3 more blue 10 blocks on top to make 13 rows.  They fill in the 6 blocks in the corner to make a rectangle.  It's easy to SEE that 12x13=156.  My son would use the blocks a bit at first, then he wouldn't need to use them anymore.  He just knew how to do it in his head.

 

Epsilon (5th grade) works with fractions.  They have fraction overlays that really help the kids SEE fractions.  They are a little difficult to describe, but I'll try.  On the bottom, there is a white background piece. On the top there is a clear plastic piece with lines dividing the white background piece into halves or thirds or fourths or fifths ... In the middle is a colored piece that represents 1/2 or 2/2 or 1/3 or 2/3 or 3/3 or 1/4 or 2/4 or ...  When you add 2/3 + 1/4, you set up the 2/3, set up the 1/4, then take the extra clear plastic piece divided into 4 and place it crosswise over the 2/3, SEEing that 2/3 is the same as 8/12.  You take the extra clear plastic piece divided into 3 and place it crosswise over the 1/4, SEEing that 1/4 is the same as 3/12.  Adding, 8/12 + 3/12 is easy then.

 

I have found the balance of new material vs. review to be just right for us in the new program.  There are 30 lessons in each book   Each lesson has 3 lesson pages (new concept) and 3 review pages.  The first review page had a “quick review†of a particular topic.  This helps to refresh my son’s memory if he has forgotten the topic.  The review of earlier concepts is very methodical.

 

Sometimes, people ask about testing.  Here is my experience.  When my son was about ½ way through Epsilon (5^th grade), I had to have him evaluated due to state law.  He took the Woodcock Johnson test (national test which only took 30 minutes total), and the results were startling.  His math calculation came out upper 8^th grade and his math reasoning came out mid 9^th grade!  It took me a while to understand this.  It does not mean that he is doing 8^th/9^th grade math work.  It means that my son, working at 5.5 grade level, does as well as the average 8^th/9^th grader.  When he was ½ way through Zeta (6^th grade), he took the Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement and scored post high school in math.  After MUS Pre-Algebra, he scored 11.4 on the math total of the ITBS.

Sometimes, people are concerned about the scope & sequence of MUS.  If you look at the scope & sequence of some other math curriculums or what is being taught in your local elementary school, you may find it different from MUS.  MUS uses a "mastery" approach.  It focuses on single digit addition and subtraction in alpha, multiple digit addition and subtraction in beta, multiplication in gamma, division in delta, fractions in epsilon, and decimals in zeta, roughly 1st-6th grade.  Other curriculums use a "spiral" approach.  They do a little bit of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions in each grade with each year getting progressively more difficult.  This concerns some people.  If they put their child in school in 3rd grade, their child may have not seen fractions at all, whereas the ps'ers would have seen simple fractions.  This does not mean that the 3rd graders who have been taught simple fractions actually understand them, just that they have seen them.

But, because MUS focuses on one concept each year, I see that as one of its strengths.  I think it really helps the child to know multiplication (for example) until they know it forwards, backwards, sideways, and upside down.  I think it helps to CEMENT it in the child's head.  

Here are some of the negatives I've heard over the years:  (1) It has no color, pictures, or games to make it “funâ€.  That’s true.  It’s more of a solid, straightforward approach.  (2)  The word problems aren't as challenging as they could be.  We do supplement with Singapore’s Challenging Word Problems.

 

I have a degree in math.  My son picks math up very quickly.  But, this program is so well laid out that most of the time, the learning is easy.  Once in a while, it’s a little difficult, like multiple digit multiplication and long division.  But, the approach is so incremental, that they learn little by little until they know a whole lot.

 

I hope this has been helpful.  Believe it or not, I'm not a rep.  Just a very happy user.

 

Final note:  I was not as impressed with Algebra as with the previous levels.  It did not cover as much material as traditional Algebra texts (ex. quadratic formula was not presented).  We will not continue with MUS through high school.

[FriedClams]

I'm not a huge MUS fan. But, that's irrelevant. With kids your kids ages, I would recommend YOU pick a math that you're comfortable with. Whatever brand it is, pick one that you like the scope and sequence and that you can teach. Then, teach it. In my house we'd have one discussion on whining, and then there's be consequences. With my kids now in late middle school and high school they get lots of input on curriculum, but at 1st grade - that's your job.

[SoCal_Bear]

You know...part of the challenge is finding a math curricula that clicks with your kids. It's part of the beauty of homeschooling...designing your process for the kid you have versus trying to fit your kid into a certain box. I think writing and math are the two curricula where it makes a HUGE difference to "cater" to what resonates with your kiddo.

That being said...I would definitely supplement the problem solving especially word problems which MUS is not known for.

 

Edited December 3, 2015 by calbear

[MerryAtHope]

We didn't use MUS until Pre-Algebra. My oldest really wanted color and wasn't very into manipulatives when he was younger. He loved them when we started MUS though. We've used Pre-alg, Alg 1 & 2, Geometry, and Stewardship. My dd may use Pre-calc...we'll have to discuss it in the spring, but she likes math and may want to continue. 

 

My kids did need incremental instruction, and MUS fit the bill very well overall (occasionally they needed a lesson to be slightly more incremental--and the first 5 lessons in Alg 2 are a whirl-wind review of Alg 1--though a lot of Alg. 1 concepts are reviewed throughout Geometry too). Other than that glitch, my occasional frustrations were only with the scheduling. If you have a student who needs to do every page, you'll often have more than 200 "days" worth of work unless you double up. We found ways around this, so it was a minor frustration here, but you wanted pros and cons :-). I don't know if the same is ever true in the elementary levels.

 

My oldest who doesn't enjoy math (except he liked geometry) and has no plans to continue on in a STEM field scored very well on his ACT test, and easily placed into college level math courses. Youngest hasn't tested yet, but I see no reason why she wouldn't score well also. For us it was a good, solid program and met our needs for letting my kids learn in multiple ways (they could see and hear a lesson on video, study it again in the Teacher's Manual, practice some concepts with the blocks in Pre-alg & Alg 1, teach the concept to me, and seemed to have ample practice. The answer keys provide full solutions so that I can understand where my kids went wrong--I also rework problems to make sure I'm understanding them, and I'm able to easily coach my kids through reworking problems they got wrong.)

 

 

Final note:  I was not as impressed with Algebra as with the previous levels.  It did not cover as much material as traditional Algebra texts (ex. quadratic formula was not presented).  We will not continue with MUS through high school.

 

I don't know if they do some things in a different order, but they do cover the quadratic formula in Alg 2. I had an outside tutor meet with my son a couple of times to coach him on testing techniques, and except for the 2-3 trig. problems that are on the ACT, he knew how to do all of the other problems. So, it apparently didn't leave gaps in that regard. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by MerryAtHope

[Caviar]

If it's between Singapore or MUS, I'd go with Singapore.  Now, that being said, we use CLE Math and it's what gets done!

[SoCal_Bear]

The reason why it is a big deal is a college prep high school algebra course is supposed to cover quadratic equations. For example, for UC's A-G requirements for high school courses, an acceptable algebra 1 course must cover quadratic equations.

[Melissa in Australia]

we did MUS for about 2 years when we first started homeschooling. My oldest found a whole year of fractions very tedious. We switched half way through that year to Saxon as MUS at that stage didn't have any calculus or advanced math. and DS is an extremely mathy person- as you can see he is 4th year Aerospace Engineering now.

 

 

[Kat w]

I didn't read the other responses. But I think it depends on your student. If he's visual and needs more repetition like my guys do....then it should be great.

If he's not needing extra to cement the idea...I'd say no.

 

We use :

Mus and sm. great combo for my guys.

I introduce the sm lesson with mus video and sheet.

Then move onto sm.

Sometimes the mus is an intro...sometimes its spiral review and sometimes it's just flat working on thst concept more.

 

We use more math but those are my 2 main ones.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Kat w

[Amy M]

Back story: we tried MUS last year when my boys were in K and 1. My K'er liked it but my 1st grader hated it. Said "this again!!" Every day. So we went back to RS. however, now we are done with RS B and I want to switch (not interested in RS past level B). I have been seriously entertaining Singapore. I love the looks of it. It looks fun! So today I called MUS to ask a few questions. I have reservations on this program but I do like its philosophy. Anyway, I showed my 2nd grader (who hated mus last year) samples of mus online and he LOVED IT. what?!?! Lol. Now he's begging me to use it. I'm concerned we will have the same issues (he seems to move quickly and gets things quickly). Should I try it since he's open to it? Or just go with Singapore?

 

A couple of thought on your child's remarks: I wouldn't be too swayed by what my 6- or 7yo said, because they're so changeable, and their reasons aren't usually very logical. :001_smile: Does he realize that the thing he now loves is what he disliked before? The "this again" remark may mean that you could move more quickly? Did he already have the material mastered? As others said, I don't use all of the worksheets for my kids, only the ones for the lessons with which they are struggling. If he moves quickly and gets things quickly, then move on! My oldest went through both Beta and Gamma levels in 2nd grade (and he's early for his grade). So he's advanced with math. He's 8.5 and through Delta now, probably could be even further, but I've been holding him back for review with SM and BA. In fact, that's one positive for MUS in my mind, is that you can easily accelerate an advanced student with it. I used ABeka for K, and couldn't easily advance with it, since it has scripted daily lesson plans and tests and worksheets, etc. So I think MUS works great for both slower and accelerated students.

 

Any MUS users... I'm worried about the scope and sequence putting my kids behind? Nah. It shouldn't. They won't be behind. The scope and sequence is just different. (But truthfully, all math curricula are different.) Their scope and sequence is only a concern if you have to do testing, or if you think the child might go back to b&m school soon; even then, I would just do what I thought was the best curriculum and not worry about the testing (personally). Lots of moms run two math programs anyway; you could easily supplement if you're really worried about it. (I'm thinking fractions?)

 

And is it going to prepare them for college? Sure. Of course. Otherwise, people wouldn't be able to go to college after having used it. And we know that many MUS high school users get into college and do fine, as others have testified even in this thread. The WTM forums heavily lean towards SM and BA or AOPS, and at times you almost feel like any other math is the "dumb" math, lol. Doesn't mean it is that way. :) 

 

Is it heavy enough on mental math? I think it is excellent on mental math. It is so very good conceptually. Both of my sons, even my first grader who is better at LA than math, can do above their level of math with mental math because of how MUS teaches. I am very happy with that, especially coming from a traditional math which taught everything with flashcards! (I read your other thread... I don't think you'd be happy with R&S math...) 

 

Can he stop using the blocks if he doesn't want to? Yes. Same as SM or other curricula that recommend base-10 blocks. My oldest hardly ever uses the blocks now. It is good if he can demonstrate the concept to you with them, but there are many lessons when we don't pull out the blocks. But the blocks are essential for teaching the concepts behind certain lessons, like regrouping, place value, addition and subtraction, multiplication, etc.

 

Singapore or MUS... I've used both, but MUS mainly. Here is a link to my blog where I posted reviews of some math curricula, and then a description of what I chose. The most helpful critiques for you would probably be my review of MUS and the article called "What I Chose for Math." These critiques answer some common objections, like that MUS "only" covers "one topic" per year. Look at the lessons listed for each level on MUS's website, and you will see that they cover lots more topics than just addition or multiplication.

 

p.s.- I have four kids I'll be teaching so I'd be using it for my older two boys for now...

 

 

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I saw your other post about saving time. Perhaps you've already chosen SM, which is also a great choice, especially if it clicks with you. I found it harder to teach than MUS, which scaffolds the lessons very well, and reviews often with the 3 review pages per lesson. I use SM as a review of MUS and just go as fast as needed to make sure my kids understand it. So far they've breezed through SM after learning a level in MUS, except for division and multiplication, which I skipped in 1B. I just didn't see a need to teach 1st graders multiplication and division, which brings me to another point. 

 

I guess I see MUS as a no-fuss math. I read Ruth Beechick's K-3 book, and it talks about teaching math without a curriculum. I'm pretty sure I couldn't or wouldn't do that well! But MUS gets close for me. It gives me structure as a teacher, and I love how its scope and sequence prepare so well for upcoming topics that usually the new topic is easily understood. But it's just basic math. It is comprehensive basic math; it doesn't leave out important topics. (I'm just referencing elementary math, as I've only used Alpha through Delta). But it doesn't do a whole lot of extra stuff. Actually, it does touch on graphing and patterns and advanced word problem solving and stuff like that in its enrichment pages (1 per lesson), so I guess it has some extras. But I don't see why first graders need to learn multiplication and division. And likewise, we tried BA 3A this year, and although we loved the comic instruction book, I felt the workbook was just over the top. Some of it was difficult for me as an adult. Why is that needed?

 

So coming from the teacher's perspective, I think SM would take longer for me to teach than MUS. I would need the HIG (though MFW says not to use it, because it makes you take too long with math, which is true!) to feel like I was explaining things correctly, but then it would take longer. MUS--I haven't tried making my son independent yet, since I still watch the lessons with him and make sure he understands, but my instruction is very minimal. For a new lesson, we might spend 15 minutes. On review days, I'll spend 5 or none. (This is for my advanced math student; my average guy needs about 10 minutes a day in review, I'd guess.) Then they go work on the worksheet themselves. Really easy for me, and we don't waste time with a lot of review he doesn't need like our traditional curriculum did. When he can explain the concept to me or has mastered whatever new facts from the lesson, I give him the test and we move on.

 

If you're looking for an even more independent math, CLE or TT might be better. But between MUS and SM, I'd go with MUS for independence.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't change your phonics either. Both phonics and math I think you should stick with, if possible. (I do understand leaving RS, though.) You have a great phonics program, and I think you should just stick with it. Doesn't LOE also cover handwriting, spelling, and grammar? Otherwise, I'd say don't worry about grammar for your 3rd grader. Give it a year's break or just do the 2nd grade R&S together with your 2nd and 3rd grader. Put them together. Then get R&S spelling, which is independent. I'm leaving AAS after level 4, because it's just not getting done with all of my kids!

 

As far as scheduling, I stagger them. I don't do blocks of one subject, as it stresses me, since they finish at different times or might all need a new lesson on one day. Just doesn't work. I have one do independent work while I'm teaching another. I'm still figuring out how to fit in my preschoolers. It's been a very rough year for homeschooling because our outside life has been full of upheaval!

 

I think you also asked about MFW vs. SOTW?

 

I used SOTW 1 and 2 for 1st and 2nd, and this year MFW ADV. I'd say ADV would be better on you timewise since it's all scheduled out and the science and Bible is quite light (but at least you're doing something, and don't have to think AT ALL for the scheduling of it. If you don't have materials for the projects, just read about it, lol!) But if you drop science and just do history, then SOTW would be easier, because you could buy the audio, let them listen to it while they color a page and you hang out the laundry or whatever, then come back after 10 minutes, do the questions, narration, maybe mapwork, maybe project if you feel like it. I love both, and MFW does use SOTW volumes 2-4 later on. ECC, if that's what you wanted to do, would be more stuff than ADV. Guess it depends on your goals for the year...

 

Hope that helps! Let me know when you figure out all of the schedule juggling, haha. I'm still working on that one!

 

 

[EKS]

MUS is a fairly solid program, but the odd sequence can leave students out of sync with the standard sequence if you leave MUS in the middle of the elementary program.  The word problems are also weak compared to Singapore, so I'd add that in.

 

I own MUS geometry, and based on that, I would not used MUS for secondary level students unless there was a specific need (like learning disabilities).  It is very weak.

 

That said, I would not make math program decisions based on what a second grader thinks he loves.  

[EKS]

Sometimes, people ask about testing.  Here is my experience.  When my son was about ½ way through Epsilon (5^th grade), I had to have him evaluated due to state law.  He took the Woodcock Johnson test (national test which only took 30 minutes total), and the results were startling.  His math calculation came out upper 8^th grade and his math reasoning came out mid 9^th grade!  It took me a while to understand this.  It does not mean that he is doing 8^th/9^th grade math work.  It means that my son, working at 5.5 grade level, does as well as the average 8^th/9^th grader.  

 

We had a similar experience.  My son finished Zeta in April of his 4th grade year.  He also took the WJ-III and scored at "the adult level" (>99.9 %ile; he didn't list the age or grade equivalent on the report, but he said the thing about "adult level" to me) on the math sections according to the examiner.  Like Sue points out--this says more about the math achievement of adults than it did about my son. All that score meant was that my son had mastered prealgebra.

[Rosyl]

My kids have completed up to Alg 1 in MUS.  MUS explains why the student is performing a function.  My kids have used TT, and could answer the questions but did not know why they were doing it.  Mr.  Demme explains why and gives practical explanation and application..

[AnniePoo]

We used MUS from k-3 (up through gamma).  The mere thought of ever doing another level of it makes me want to scream.  

 

I have a strong math background and didn't find it to be too light.  Honestly, I think it is a solid program.  I really wanted it to work for us.  

 

What killed it for us was how the year progresses.  You start off the year doing the easiest stuff ever.  Even halfway through the year you're doing something like single digitx7.  Easy peasy.  No problem.  Then before you know it, BAM it's ramped up so fast that lessons take 4 times as long.   Weeks of xxxx multiplied by xxx is enough to make anyone cry.  

 

And while mastery is fantastic, I thought my daughter needed a little bit more time to ruminate over the subject material before taking it to the extreme.  For example, I think it's nice that in most programs a child learns the basics of division one year, expand on it the next year, then go full-force ahead with challenging problems from then on.  MUS doesn't work that way.  I think it's just too much too soon without enough time to let the concepts sit and develop.  It moves both painstakingly slow and too quickly!

 

I can see us going back to MUS for algebra on up.  We'll see.  

 

One thing I loved about MUS was how uncluttered the pages were.  My oldest is easily distracted and the lack of anything fun to look at really helped her concentrate.  

 

FWIW, Singapore can be tear-inducing in other ways (the story problems are HARD!).  

 

 

[sunshineslp]

Oh you guys! Hahahaha! You are all helping. And I'm still lost [emoji23] it's ok, I promise I'll work it out, don't worry about my imminent math breakdown[emoji38]

 

So... Here is me being honest. I want mus because it's SO. STINKIN. STRAIGHTFORWARD. open the book, do the lesson, teaching is straightforward. Not difficult to plan or execute really. BUT. I'm not in love with a few things. Which push me to SM. I don't like the extreme mastery approach. I do like how SM does their mastery approach however. I also love the Singapore methods (having done RS for 3 years) I connect with it. I feel like mus isn't as strong here. Also my kids do like "fun" in their math. The doodle pictures and whatnot in SM would be appreciated by my kids. What I DONT like about SM, is the worry over difficult concepts that I won't understand. Because while I like the approach and have done RS I am still not an extreme mathy person and I was not taught that way in school. So I worry about conceptual leaps and/or meltdowns over it being too abstract too young. So really I'm at a stand still here.

 

[emoji36]

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sweetpea3829]

I always find it interesting how different folks define mastery vs spiral.  Some folks consider Singapore to be a spiral approach while others consider it to be mastery.

 

In my understanding...mastery is when a topic is studied and completed in full.  Spiral is when small bits of a topic are introduced and then revisited over and over again throughout the year.

 

So for example...in Singapore in K and 1st grade, you learn how to identify ALL of the coins in one unit.  

 

In Horizons (the only truly spiral program I've worked with), you learn how to identify the penny while learning what the number 1 looks like at the same time as learning 1:00.  

 

^^That spiral approach drove ME and my DD nuts.  

 

MUS is called mastery...and it is.  BUT, it has some spiral aspects to it.  For example, when they are spending an entire year learning single digit addition and subtraction, the foundation for subtraction is subtly introduced far earlier than the actual concept.  Folks, that's technically "spiral".  

 

So where am I going with this?  Oh yeah...Singapore is not really a spiral curriculum.  It technically is mastery.  The topics are introduced at an age-appropriate level (ie early foundational multiplication in the first grade) in UNITS and then, as the student progresses through GRADE LEVELS, those topics are revisited with a higher degree of difficulty.  

 

 

 

Sunshine...you are 100% correct about the open and go planning aspect of MUS.  It is, hands-down, my easiest math curriculum to plan.  Cake.  I LOVE that about it (and should have listed that as a strength).  

 

But to be honest, Singapore is not really that difficult to plan.  It took me awhile to figure out a system that worked for our family, but overall, my biggest planning difficulties with Singapore are in trying to decide, ahead of time, how long it might take my students to grasp a concept.  In other words, I sometimes have difficulty with planning the lessons in advance, because I don't want to take too much time when not much time is needed.  Neither do I want to plan too quickly, and discover they need more time.  I try to compensate for that by allowing for review days (that extra day off a week is great for that).  

 

As far as struggling with the TEACHING of Singapore...I can see that as well.  Sometimes I've struggled with it.  Like you, Math is not my strongest subject (though it's one of my favs).  And I never learned math in the Singapore way.  But...I have always been able to come here to the forums and get help when needed.  

 

 

And on that note...my eldest child is having a complete meltdown over a (get this) MUS word problem.  Sigh.  Off to go put out the flames.  

[sunshineslp]

Sweetpea I totally get you on the mastery vs spiral debate. I see Singapore as a mastery "within a unit" type. I can see how mus could be viewed as spiraling at times too.

 

So you use both?

 

I think my inner mom is screaming DO MUS FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY but then my inner teacher is screaming SINGAPORE IS A BETTER FIT! So I don't know. Honestly, maybe mus with some spiral concepts thrown in and beefier work problems may be good but I hate all the supplementing to get to a "good program" that fits our needs.

 

 

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[prairiewindmomma]

I use most of both for all levels up to pre algebra. If you buy only the Primary Math workbook to supplement MUS, it's inexpensive to do so. Don't overthink this. :)

[sunshineslp]

That's sounds nice prairiewindmomma... And it's an option for sure... But I'm thinking if I only have the workbook I will for sure get confused on some topics since I will have completely missed the instruction. I'm sure in early grades it's fine though.

 

 

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[sweetpea3829]

I do use both, but in different ways.  I use it as primary for my LD kiddo.  

 

I have used it with my younger two boys to give them a good foundation in place value, number sense and number composition.  I used it to build my middle DS confidence.  

 

Occasionally, I use the MUS blocks with Singapore problems.  Especially in the earlier grades where number bonds are a big deal.  

 

However, it would be a horrendous fit for my oldest boy.  He would have been bored stiff and probably would have hated math as a result of it.  

 

There are some families that use MUS to introduce concepts, and then they use another curriculum to provide the depth that MUS lacks.  I've seen this particularly with the higher levels.  I could totally see using MUS to introduce, say, fractions.  And then following up with Singapore to provide the depth.  

 

I mean...I think you could probably even get away with just buying the DVDs and using them as an intro to the topic, There really isn't anything special about the workbook.  The teaching is in the DVDs, kwim?  

[vaquitita]

I've been following this thread because I've found myself thinking about MUS lately. I totally see myself using this for algebra because of the DVDs, I think Demme does a great job at explaining why things work. When I dropped it I thought whew that was horrible, never again! Live and learn. Lol. I used it my first year homeschooling. My eldest was in Kindy and did Alpha. Looking back the reason he disliked it so much was all the writing. If I'd continued scribing for him, he probably would have been fine. And I didn't understand when to move on because he'd gotten the concept. I have grown a lot as a teacher since then. Lol. I went from there to right start math, MEP, and Singapore.

 

There are plenty of things I like about Singapore, but the straight forward ness of MUS, as well as the independence, while still being a manipulative based/conceptual type program, makes it appealing to me. Being a worrier, I worry that I picked Singapore because it was 'best' and wonder whether it is best for my family. It works pretty good for my oldest, but I find myself worrying repeatedly about my next kid who hates leaps and gets scared by new stuff in math. She's doing ok for now, but she's only in 2a. But I don't know how I would transition her into MUS at this point. And my kids are required to do state testing every year starting in 3rd grade, so I'm not sure it would be a great fit for us from that standpoint. Sorry, OP, I don't mean to hijack your thread.

[sunshineslp]

I also worry sometimes that il picking sm simply because it's touted as the BEST and I want that for my kids. I'm a tad scared the flipping of HIG/workbook/textbook, etc will get old. I think that's why I'm putting so much thought into it is because I do not want to flip Mathis again anytime soon. My oldest is a mathy kid, but doesn't LOVE math. I think he'd be bored with mus really. I would like a more independent math that's easy to plan/implement, but honestly I think at this age it's all pretty intensive.

 

 

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[Kat w]

For me, I know sm is not spiral.....for me,

I use a variety of maths to 'spiral'

My boys have challenges. I have to. I'm lucky we retain what we do.

I'm lucky they can do an at all.

That's why I say....for kids like these and other kids....more than one curriculum will help.

 

Thsts why I personally say...it depends on your individual student. And diff kids may use diff programs

 

The practice of sm and visual lessons by Singapore cw by Singapore ...I all use for review with diff levels....I have to.

Working memory problems.s

Edited December 7, 2015 by Kat w

[Kat w]

Sunshine....we like Singapore. We also like mus.

We also us Khan, beast , and bju review sheets.

 

Lotta math here right now and really...

All depends on thst student and the way they learn.

 

My boys have to have the mus sheers.

 

I guess I should have qualified I had special learners....thought I did further up....o knkw. Alot to read tho

Edited December 8, 2015 by Kat w

[sunshineslp]

I can see that Kat, it's very smart to do it that way. I think we may be the same way... No special needs I don't think, but different thinkers. My oldest son gets abstract concepts fairly easily. But younger son does not. He's more concrete. I could see mus working better for him. Or even CLE.

 

 

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[Kat w]

I do use both, but in different ways. I use it as primary for my LD kiddo.

 

I have used it with my younger two boys to give them a good foundation in place value, number sense and number composition. I used it to build my middle DS confidence.

 

Occasionally, I use the MUS blocks with Singapore problems. Especially in the earlier grades where number bonds are a big deal.

 

However, it would be a horrendous fit for my oldest boy. He would have been bored stiff and probably would have hated math as a result of it.

 

There are some families that use MUS to introduce concepts, and then they use another curriculum to provide the depth that MUS lacks. I've seen this particularly with the higher levels. I could totally see using MUS to introduce, say, fractions. And then following up with Singapore to provide the depth.

 

I mean...I think you could probably even get away with just buying the DVDs and using them as an intro to the topic, There really isn't anything special about the workbook. The teaching is in the DVDs, kwim?

Mus number blocks w bar models of sm....Thays what I need to do.

 

They aren't getting bar models...fully.

 

Good idea. Gonna try it. Bet it helps. They are visual

[EKT]

We love MUS. It is clear and straightforward. And yes, my daughter gave up the blocks on her own, when she no longer needed them. 

[prairiewindmomma]

If you are just wanting to add some concept work with blocks....I'd look into education unboxed a bit...free online and easily to implement with a box of cuisenaire rods.

[sunshineslp]

Ok. Talk to me about math mammoth guys. Just curious if it's easier in their explanation of concepts? I own grades 1-3 already. It was not loved by all. Haha! So plain and too much on the page. But I wonder if it wouldn't be a "middle of the road" program, still conceptual, but not as fast or confusing as Singapore? Not to divert the convo from mus, just curious about others experiences.

 

 

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[Momto4inSoCal]

MUS wasn't a good fit for us and I think using it for 1 year and them switching made for a difficult following year. After a year of multiplication dd still couldn't understand how to do 2 or 3 digit multiplication and she was crying every day. The problem is the sequence is different from any other program so if you switch midway through the elementary program you are going to have to learn some concepts the other program already introduced while you may be ahead in another area. I also disliked that money and time are not introduced at all. The book we used didn't cover any elementary geometry concepts either but maybe the other books cover that? (Ie right, obtuse, acute angles, polygons etc)

ETA: We switched first to math in focus (Singapore us edition) and it was too difficult so we switched again to MM. It was a good middle of the road for us. It gives very incremental steps. Our first year with it was not easy but ot was doable and this year, our second year using it has been much better. I now see why people recommend to stick with one program. Concepts are built upon and it helps to stay with one way of teaching.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Momto4inSoCal

[sweetpea3829]

MUS wasn't a good fit for us and I think using it for 1 year and them switching made for a difficult following year. After a year of multiplication dd still couldn't understand how to do 2 or 3 digit multiplication and she was crying every day. The problem is the sequence is different from any other program so if you switch midway through the elementary program you are going to have to learn some concepts the other program already introduced while you may be ahead in another area. I also disliked that money and time are not introduced at all. The book we used didn't cover any elementary geometry concepts either but maybe the other books cover that? (Ie right, obtuse, acute angles, polygons etc)

ETA: We switched first to math in focus (Singapore us edition) and it was too difficult so we switched again to MM. It was a good middle of the road for us. It gives very incremental steps. Our first year with it was not easy but ot was doable and this year, our second year using it has been much better. I now see why people recommend to stick with one program. Concepts are built upon and it helps to stay with one way of teaching.

 

 

MUS throws in little bits of other topics here and there but honestly, a lot of the time I feel like it's exactly that...thrown in. I haven't used enough of the series to know exactly how much of those other topics are covered but if I remember correctly, he's mentioned right angles at one point or another. Almost like an after thought. And it does include time and money. I believe they were mostly mixed in with Beta and Gamma (we are in Gamma now).

 

If he does cover those topics in more depth in later books, than I don't see the after thought mentioning as a bad thing. But if he doesn't really go into more detail, than that's a definite negative. One would want to supplement those concepts.