Runningmom80 Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Because he's finally being challenged and he gets stuff wrong. I feel like I've failed him because if I would have been challenging him from the beginning, he would be used to missing a problem. This is not helping his horrible relationship with math. I'm not sure what to do. :( ETA: We've had talks about how hard work matters more than "smart," and how he needs to learn how to work hard and face challenges. I guess I'm looking for real life examples on how to overcome this. I HATE that he values smart so much, even though we've tried to praise effort over ability. He knows he's different, and there really isn't a way around that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: What exactly are his struggles with math? Who is he comparing himself to? What math programs have you used? Is there something else he is really interested in that he might want to work on? Like a musical instrument or learning how to program or something along those lines? If he is willing to put in the effort in another area, and can see the positive results, the correlation between hard work and results might translate to math later on. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 Thank you! It's the IP book for SM 4B. There was a magic square thing with decimals that threw him into a spiral of angst. He does play an instrument, but that comes easy to him. :-/ He just did robotics programming yesterday at the science center, and he said "You're right mom, it does feel good to accomplish something!" :lol: I really need to tap into that. Thank you for the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 That is so common for smart kids, who can be amazingly stupid in some very important ways*. Don't beat yourself up about it! It's good you are able to address this now - lots of kids don't hit that point until high school or even college, at which point it's even harder to realize that smart does not mean "never has to work" and that having to work and struggle is not at all the same as suddenly being stupid, and it can be extremely difficult to figure out new work habits. * This is pretty much the stupid way in which smart people tend to shoot themselves in the foot. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I must have you mixed up with another poster because I thought you were just starting AoPS Prealgebra. I was going to say that the prealgebra text is the antidote IME, but that it takes time. Depending on the kid, maybe even a lot of time, like most of the book. I'm not familiar with the IP books, but my advice generally would be to try to get him to approach each IP problem as a puzzle to be solved rather than as a measure of his abilities. The ultimate goal would be for him to derive pleasure from the solving, not just for being right (while that's fun too) but for the intellectual workout. One way might be to work together on a white board, as a team, where you gradually hand over the reins more as time goes by. The image I often have in my mind is that the two of us are together on a path in the woods, hmmm which way should we go. I'll quote Rusczyk: Part of the problem also is that they develop a perfectionist streak. How many of your children are perfectionists, and it drives them nuts when they don’t get one hundred percent? They have to get over that. We don’t want them to get over that by slacking off. We want them to get over that by being presented with more meaningful challenges, because if you’re always getting a hundred percent on everything, you are not learning efficiently enough. You’re not learning as fast as you can and you’re not learning how to do things you haven’t seen before. What happens is just what we saw with my classmate. If the first time they can’t do something is college, they get so used to just being able to do everything because they’re “smart,†that once they can’t do something, they figure, “I’ve hit the wall. I can’t do this anymore. I’m quitting.†That’s another thing that the tyranny of 100% encourages in students. It encourages them to think, “I can do all this because I am so smart,†and once you can’t do it, then you’re done, while smarter people can go on. That’s just not the case. I suppose the question then is, how do we make a challenge meaningful, and I think that's where I'd put learning to derive intrinsic pleasure in the solving. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 That is so common for smart kids, who can be amazingly stupid in some very important ways*. Don't beat yourself up about it! It's good you are able to address this now - lots of kids don't hit that point until high school or even college, at which point it's even harder to realize that smart does not mean "never has to work" and that having to work and struggle is not at all the same as suddenly being stupid, and it can be extremely difficult to figure out new work habits. * This is pretty much the stupid way in which smart people tend to shoot themselves in the foot. :iagree: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Smart people know they aren't smart. LOL Not that that helps you. : ) I tell my kids that if they are getting everything right then it's too easy and they won't learn much. My older kid has gotten a lot better about making mistakes. The younger one still tends to have his freak out moments. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 I must have you mixed up with another poster because I thought you were just starting AoPS Prealgebra. I was going to say that the prealgebra text is the antidote IME, but that it takes time. Depending on the kid, maybe even a lot of time, like most of the book. One of my ds12s just said something similar to me this morning (oh, maybe it was "I'm not good at math" umm...). He made a lot of progress on the perfectionism/fear of failure/fear of trying challenging things back when he used that text. But, he's been using more traditional materials at school since then and we are still dealing with this. This has been plaguing him since he was little. Other ds12 is a year ahead of him in math primarily due to the ramifications of this issue. He thinks that if he can't solve a problem using only those two little cells in the back corner of his brain, he can't do it. (I need to write this out because I'm exchanging emails with his math teacher this morning and I'm not sure how to explain this well; teacher is looking for self-advocacy that will not be forthcoming for the very same reasons!) I'm not familiar with the IP books, but my advice generally would be to try to get him to approach each IP problem as a puzzle to be solved rather than as a measure of his abilities. The ultimate goal would be for him to derive pleasure from the solving, not just for being right (while that's fun too) but for the intellectual workout. One way might be to work together on a white board, as a team, where you gradually hand over the reins more as time goes by. The image I often have in my mind is that the two of us are together on a path in the woods, hmmm which way should we go. ETA, so would I be out of line if I quote Rusczyk in the email to the teacher? I probably shouldn't go quite that far; I have a tendency to go overboard and wince a little when re-reading it later. I suppose the question then is, how do we make a challenge meaningful, and I think that's where I'd put learning to derive intrinsic pleasure in the solving. It's not showing your quote, but that hit me so hard. THAT is what I keep trying to explain to him. (That is what happened to both of his parents. :lol: ) I also really like the advice to work it through with him and slowly hand over the reigns. Thank you for that. i did kind of just expect him to jump in and that's not fair. That being said, he's never liked challenge, never ever. :glare: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Because he's finally being challenged and he gets stuff wrong. I feel like I've failed him because if I would have been challenging him from the beginning, he would be used to missing a problem. This is not helping his horrible relationship with math. I'm not sure what to do. :( ETA: We've had talks about how hard work matters more than "smart," and how he needs to learn how to work hard and face challenges. I guess I'm looking for real life examples on how to overcome this. I HATE that he values smart so much, even though we've tried to praise effort over ability. He knows he's different, and there really isn't a way around that. I don't know if it'll make you feel better or worse, but we've done challenging work with my daughter since she was 2 or 3 and begging for academic work. She still thinks she's "stupid at math". Mind you, she's 5 and about to start Beast Academy, but she's "stupid at math" because it's the subject I was best about finding a challenge for her in, so the work is always a slight stretch for her. She's also "stupid at handwriting" because it doesn't come naturally. She totally believes that she's awesome at reading, though, because it comes so very easily to her that I can't find a challenge for her that wouldn't just be completely uninteresting. *sigh* We have had moderate success with saving work samples and showing her the things she struggled with six months previously, which she then considers "easy baby work". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanDiegoMom Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I had this with my dd9 studying for the MCT town level words... like superannuated. And grotesque. And she missed two on her quiz and felt so bad about it. So I pulled up a sampling of typical fourth grade vocabulary lists and showed her them and asked her if should would rather have a 100 on the easier test or a 90 on a harder one? Which words would she be prouder of knowing, the majority of the difficult words or all of the easier ones? She felt better after that. With the IP, I also had my ds approach it as a puzzle, not as his actual "work". That way it took the pressure off of it if he got some wrong -- kind of like if you do the Singapore Workbook, you'd better get those all correct, but the rest are like the bonus challenging problems that he has more space to make mistakes. He's now in PreA and that's how I approach the challenge problems at the end of the chapter -- he invariably misses a couple in the last problems but still has a sense of pride for the challenge problems he got right. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 My son has not felt successful at math until just recently. That is not to say he has been unsuccessful, but he sure felt that way. He began AoPS at 8 and will turn 11 in a couple days. The struggle involved much emotion and I did a fair amount of questioning if I was doing more harm than good. However, he has had to recognize that smart meant you were willing to stretch yourself. With that stretching comes accomplishment and even more questions, leading you to wonder if you are ever any smarter at all. At some point everyone has to come to terms with such things. I am glad my son did it before teenage years. That did not make the struggle any easier on him, but at least he did it before he had large amounts of self consciousness. I do not think there is a way to make recognizing you will never know all the answers an emotionally easy task. Humility is always a hard one. As a parent it is one of the first things which I had to realize I could not teach; I had to let go and watch him stumble. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I can commiserate. I'm convinced perfectionism and unrealistic expectations is a hydra. You cut off one head, and two more grow. AOPS provides a pretty good sword, but DD has had other heads sprout where she sets such high expectations for herself that she cannot reach them, then gets depressed because she's failed them. Every time I see a gain in one area, another head sprouts. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 My son has not felt successful at math until just recently. That is not to say he has been unsuccessful, but he sure felt that way. He began AoPS at 8 and will turn 11 in a couple days. The struggle involved much emotion and I did a fair amount of questioning if I was doing more harm than good. However, he has had to recognize that smart meant you were willing to stretch yourself. With that stretching comes accomplishment and even more questions, leading you to wonder if you are ever any smarter at all. At some point everyone has to come to terms with such things. I am glad my son did it before teenage years. That did not make the struggle any easier on him, but at least he did it before he had large amounts of self consciousness. I do not think there is a way to make recognizing you will never know all the answers an emotionally easy task. Humility is always a hard one. As a parent it is one of the first things which I had to realize I could not teach; I had to let go and watch him stumble. This is a very good point. Thank you. (I think maybe I'm having perfectionism as a parent, wanting him to learn all of these huge life lessons from me, the first time I mention them, and not forget them. I might need a dose of my own medicine! :lol: ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm919 Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 *hugs* My daughter works at least a few years ahead, depending on the subject, and considers herself -- in her words -- "not very smart." I still challenge her because of my husband's experience. He is substantially smarter and lazier than I am, and she is more like him than me. He went all the way to High school without doing any work and the second he had to do work, he had not the slightest inkling of how to persist through difficulty... "discovering" his weaknesses so late in the game undermined him greatly in high school and college. In his opinion, the sooner you discover "the" limitation, the more time there is to learn how to overcome limitations. I think your son has plenty of time to work through this... now is better than later, I guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamanthaCarter Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 No advice, but have you read Mindset? It's really worth reading, especially if you have one that is naturally very good at something - anything. I wonder if you could pull some excerpts out of it for your ds and really think about them together? He might be too young, but it would be a good read for you none the less. ps - the book can get tedious. I skipped at least one chapter, the one about sports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 That is so common for smart kids, who can be amazingly stupid in some very important ways*. Don't beat yourself up about it! It's good you are able to address this now - lots of kids don't hit that point until high school or even college, at which point it's even harder to realize that smart does not mean "never has to work" and that having to work and struggle is not at all the same as suddenly being stupid, and it can be extremely difficult to figure out new work habits. * This is pretty much the stupid way in which smart people tend to shoot themselves in the foot. Or law school. And I was totally crushed by the weight of failure. I am no help; we actually have the opposite problem here. My kid seriously told me that he is a "genius" the other day while working through Beast Academy. Ugh. I keep trying to find ways to reign in his [over]confidence in his abilities (this issue extends beyond academic overconfidence). :grouphug: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 This is a very good point. Thank you. (I think maybe I'm having perfectionism as a parent, wanting him to learn all of these huge life lessons from me, the first time I mention them, and not forget them. I might need a dose of my own medicine! :lol: ) You are doing fine. It is a struggle vecause you love your kiddo. The brutal parenting years (9 -17) are upon me in full swing. I watch my son now venturing off with this wonderful independence and six block radius of freedom, only to then hear about being crushed by the world due to lack of experience. Before long, he is going to be the only one not invited to the party. Before too long some other young person is going to break his heart because he is totally in love and they are merely having fun. Before long, he is going to be turned down for a dream job, a dream car, a dream opportunity. It happens to us all, but I somehow want to save him from that. Until recently it all felt so vastly far into the future. Much like the toddler years prepare parents for the patience needed in the tween years, this is preparing you for all those wonderful teen years :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 He just did robotics programming yesterday at the science center, and he said "You're right mom, it does feel good to accomplish something!" :lol: I really need to tap into that. Thank you for the advice! Is there a way to get ds involved with some real, hands-on projects where he can "solve problems" with building, constructing or repairing something? The satisfaction of creating something concrete, using his own creative problem solving abilities, might help develop a different level of self-confidence than pure academics. He seemed to enjoy this with the robotics. An example of this would be when my dh and I were putting in laminate flooring last month, and we had some very specialized angles to measure and cut. He got a real thrill out of using sine, cosine and/or tangent to calculate the exact angles needed, then setting the miter saw and seeing how the wood pieces fit perfectly. I was totally impressed, because I would have done it much differently, and his way was awesome. I see my nephews do this type of project designing, planning, purchasing and then actually building things on their property and it is so impressive the scope of learning and problem solving that goes into these types of tasks. No math book can teach this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Keeper Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Is there a way to get ds involved with some real, hands-on projects where he can "solve problems" with building, constructing or repairing something? The satisfaction of creating something concrete, using his own creative problem solving abilities, might help develop a different level of self-confidence than pure academics. ^^ Yes to this, a thousand times over. The hands-on work doesn't have to involve math or whatever the area of struggle is; it could be as simple as raking leaves or scrubbing and organizing the silverware drawer. Learning some of these more physical skills also helps kids see that there is more than one way of "being smart," and it helps them to see the short and long term payoffs of hard work. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4KookieKids Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 This isn't exactly "real life examples" like you asked for, but I thought it a good read, and possibly applicable.http://qz.com/139453/theres-one-key-difference-between-kids-who-excel-at-math-and-those-who-dont/That being said, I think that sometimes "I'm not smart" or "I'm so stupid" is actually more arrogance and pride than the opposite. At least in my own experience, though I would've never admitted it at the time, I only ever felt this frustration when I was feeling pretty high at the top of the stack and I couldn't bear the thought of being "average." As for "real life examples," we sat down a while back and decided on some (<5) key values/mottos for our family, and one of them is "We do hard things." We talk about this in all areas of our life, and I would like to think it carries over into academics as well. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Smart people know they aren't smart. LOL Not that that helps you. : ) I tell my kids that if they are getting everything right then it's too easy and they won't learn much. My older kid has gotten a lot better about making mistakes. The younger one still tends to have his freak out moments. My girls tend to think that if they have to think about it for a while, something's wrong. No, sweetie.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 This isn't exactly "real life examples" like you asked for, but I thought it a good read, and possibly applicable. http://qz.com/139453/theres-one-key-difference-between-kids-who-excel-at-math-and-those-who-dont/ That being said, I think that sometimes "I'm not smart" or "I'm so stupid" is actually more arrogance and pride than the opposite. At least in my own experience, though I would've never admitted it at the time, I only ever felt this frustration when I was feeling pretty high at the top of the stack and I couldn't bear the thought of being "average." As for "real life examples," we sat down a while back and decided on some (<5) key values/mottos for our family, and one of them is "We do hard things." We talk about this in all areas of our life, and I would like to think it carries over into academics as well. :) I definitely don't think it's an arrogance thing. He legitimately feels like if he can't get something right away, he must be too stupid to complete the task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 He legitimately feels like if he can't get something right away, he must be too stupid to complete the task. Are there fast computation people in your family? Oldest and I are very fast at computation. Youngest can only close most of the gap when it comes to math proofs. He has felt stupid. If you don't mind mess, I let my kids incomplete math work stay on their work table. They wake up refresh and kind of forgot that they were stuck with the problem previously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 Are there fast computation people in your family? Oldest and I are very fast at computation. Youngest can only close most of the gap when it comes to math proofs. He has felt stupid. If you don't mind mess, I let my kids incomplete math work stay on their work table. They wake up refresh and kind of forgot that they were stuck with the problem previously. That's a good idea! I don't mind it sitting out over night. He is actually very fast at computing. It's the algebraic equations that actually require, you know, "thinking" to complete. He just wants everything to come easy to him. I don't blame him! :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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