Singapore pro & cons please?

[wagnfun]

A few days ago I asked for math help and thanks to those that replied, we've been eating TONS of m&ms.. I mean, math games!

 

The one curriculum that kept coming back to me though was Singapore.

 

Can I get reviews, both positive & negative?

 

Thanks!

[LoveBaby]

I did not care for singapore. I didn't care for teaching it at all. It seemed very....mmm...can't even put the word to it, but it was just difficult and seemed very un-natural to teach. I also did a *lot* of reading on the boards, and while singapore gets a lot of rave reviews so does Rod & Staff Math, which is very straightforward and "old school". We have enjoyed R&S much more and I feel like my children are getting a lot more from it. Singapore also moves through concepts pretty quickly and I found that while the children would understand a concept at the time we were going over it...several weeks later when they would be introduced to it again, it would be totally foreign to them.

 

My plan now is to go through at least 4th grade with R&S and then go back through Singapore to solidify the mental math concepts. I read that several times on the boards and it seems like a great idea to get both the facts, mental math and concepts down cold before upper level math!

[Sue G in PA]

Well, we are just starting Singapore w/ my ds7, ds8 and ds10 (who struggles w/ all math programs. Ds8 is a "mathy" kid and could use practically any program and do well. He did Saxon 3 last year and did very well. Ds7 LOVES Singapore and would cry at Saxon. So, for him, it's working, too. Ds10 used MUS for a while, liked it, but took a look at ds8's Singapore book and liked it even more. So, we're starting him in Sing. too. Okay, pros that I see: inexpensive, focus on mental math, the use of the "number bonds" or fact families to teach facts (I personally like that way to teach it), brevity of the lessons (not too much, just enough). Cons that I see: not enough "built in" review, no built in drills so you must drill facts separately (we do that anyway, so no biggie here), might be difficult to teach if you are not used to the way Sing. presents the topics. We're liking it so far. I did keep MUS Gamma b/c I do like the way Mr. Demme teaches multiplication...it finally made sense to me even though I knew how to do it! We're not that far into it, and most is still review for my kids, so we'll see how it goes once we get to a new topic.

[MomOfOneFunOne]

We use singapore and I love it. I have never used another program, though, so I coulnd't compare.

 

I like the progression of understanding from concrete to abstract.

 

I like how hands-on it is (but surely other programs use manipulatives).

 

In the beginning I did not like how much stuff I had to make. I liked using the ideas and I loved how well they worked with my kiddo but it was a lot of work in the beginning. I'm thinking of number clown, number discs, number cards, et c. Now that we have them, I dont' have to make them anymore, though. Also, I saw a link for "manipulatives" the other day so maybe you dont' even have to make them anymore. I didn't click.

 

I like the HIG.

 

I did not learn math this way but as we go through it, I really believe that if I had had Singapore Math, I'd have done a lot better in that subject.

 

That's a con, though, too. It isn't at all as I learned as a kid so it can be awkward at times. That's why I use the HIG. Even Singapore math I could teach at the first grade, et c level but I wanted to make sure I was teaching their way. I have no idea if the author is American or Singaporean or Martian but I find that the ideas and strategies really work for us.

 

I don't like their return policy. 10% restocking fee, no exchanges. That stinks but in all the years we've used them (since k) we've only wanted to return one book and that was this year. I ordered the wrong level of HIG by mistake. With shipping and the 10% restocking fee, it's hardly worth sending it back. However, if you wanted to order and look through the books and send them back if you didn't like them, that would be pretty expensive.

 

I read a lot that Singapore doesn't have enough review; that once a topic is covered, it isn't touched on again. So far I haven't found that to be true but maybe later that becomes an issue. I don't know yet. So far, I have found the books to have plenty of review.

 

There's a forum and the author of the HIG will answer any questions you have. It isn't a super busy forum but she answers questions promptly. If you want to know more, just ask Jenny.

 

I really like singapore math. If you have some specific questions, feel free to ask.

[mamato3 all-boy boys]

I like SM. We've used it from the earlybird (kindergarten) programs (which I didn't like) through 3B now.

 

I think the program progresses well from concrete explanations of concepts to abstract comprehension of concepts. I personally use the Home Instructor's Guides because I think they are chock full of helpful games, teaching strategies and "extras" that flesh out the program. I was never one to be afraid to teach math, however, I lacked confidence in my ability to have alternative explanations for my sons if the first explanation didn't work -- so the HIGs have been helpful in that respect. I do like to have IG even if I don't use them all the time (although I do use my IGs all the time to check ds's work -- I love that the HIG has the answers for textbook problems, workbook problems, and mental math problems). There are lots of extra drill sheets in the back of the HIG that you can copy and use and they give kids practice using mental calculation.

 

This isn't to say I don't struggle with SM, though. I used to have a "math freak out" quarterly and I would call a hsing friend who loves SM to just make sure I was "doing" it right and was not losing focus of the intent of the program. My "freak outs" have decreased in the past year -- I think I only called her once in 3rd grade. Yea, I'm growning up.

 

From what I understand, if you are considering SM, you'll want to consider whether to use the new Standards program or the US Edition. I'm using the US Edition for 3B, and I've heard that it is a sensical switch to Standards at 4A. So, I'll have to mull that over and seek out opinions when the time comes this winter. There seem to be some positive reasons to move to the Standards edition.

[Kissy]

I love Singapore Math. It clicks with my son who was struggling with math in public school. We use the textbook and workbooks. We have used 3A through 4B.

 

Pros:

mental math- has lots of good word problems.

has cartoon pictures.

shows math through pictures and bars.

 

Cons

computation drills..you will need to add these in.

[StephanieZ]

Pros:

 

I am really happy with SM. We've used it with all 3 dc from day1. . . and I'm absolutely happy with it. One of the best choices we've made and the only one I've never doubted. ;)

 

I am a math-y person and I like how SM presents concepts and emphasizes mental math as well as conceptual understanding. I find it very easy to teach. I like the "mastery" approach where you learn a concept then get enough practice to really understand it. . . and *then* you move on. There is regular review built into the problem sets, but these review sections are clearly delineated as such, which I like.

 

Our general regimen is SMPM along with Miquon during Gr1-3 and then just PM through Gr6. Other than the Miquon during Gr1-3, we also use a variety of tools for fact drills. We use the Intensive Practices books sporadically as reveiw/deepening.

 

dd11 did PM1-PM6 and got a very solid math foundation and is now doing Thinkwell Algebra successfully. ds9 is wrapping up 6A and will also move onto Algebra next year (doing Key To for pre-algebra and then Thinkwell). dd5 is in 1A. . .

 

Cons: If you are really adverse to math or very poor in it, then I could see it being hard to teach for you. You need to be comfortable enough with it to read the text and then explain it. This really is not difficult IMHO, but if you are really terrible at math, then it could happen. If that's the case, then hopefully you could find a curriculum that spelled things out clearly enough for *you* and thus your dc to understand.

 

Also, you need to remember to add in fact drill during gr1-2 to get the basic facts down, as that is not built in to the program. I find this extremely easy to do using a wide variety of flashcards/tools/games/etc but if you need it built into your main program, then that is a CON.

[Stacey in MA]

DS9 is in 4th grade and has been using Singapore since K (Earlybird). We had tried 3 other curriculums first that just were not clicking with him. Finally Singapore did. He is very much a math person, and hated the repetition of the other programs.

 

It is not for everyone though. I tried it for several months w/ my DD6, and she just HATED it. What I deciphered is....She is NOT a strong math person, NEEDS repetition to learn, and she ENJOYS repetition as a form of accomplishment (instead of as some see it as a waste of time). She is using Saxon 2 now. She seems to like it (I don't though, but I'm sticking it out...)

 

So I would say YES to Singapore, but only for certain kids, likely to be strong math thinkers.

 

Pros are:

- Examples are clearly stated/presented to represent a concept. They are very well thought out and concisely show the concept.

- Exercises spiral to a small degree. (for reinforcement of previous concepts)

- The lessons and exercises are brief.

 

Cons are:

- Although the examples are PERFECT, the explanation is sometimes not there, even in the textbook or home instructors guide. So the parent must either know math and know how to explain it, or have some other way of offering up "words" to the example.

- The lessons and exercises are brief - this is not good for all kids.

 

I know that my DS wouldn't be doing as well in math if it weren't for using Singapore, and I know that my DD would be doing terribly if she WERE using it! Sorry to make it more confusing....

 

- Stacey in MA

[Haiku]

I used Singapore with my oldest, who is now 14. We did 1A-2A. I didn't like it. I really wanted to, but didn't.

 

Pros: inexpensive

 

Cons: Lessons were too short to solidify understanding, explanations were too abstract, not enough example problems, not enough practice problems, pace was too quick

 

Singapore was just an exercise in frustration for us.

 

Tara

 

ETA: I see someone mentioned Singapore working well for strong math thinkers but maybe not for weak math thinkers. That was true in our case. My daughter struggles terribly with math and she needed way, way, way more practice and review than Singapore provided.

[brehon]

I really think it will depend on whether you wish your children to learn math conceptually or not. Most of us did not learn math conceptually so it's hard for us to wrap our minds around the different way of learning it. I know I had several "a-ha!" moments while I was reading Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics by Liping Ma. I literally understood, for the first time, what "borrowing" really was and, more importantly, the whys of the operation - not just the hows. I highly recommend this book.

 

Oops, more to say, but duty calls...

[wagnfun]

What is the difference b/t the standards &US Edition? Thanks!

[Shasta Mom]

go to the Singapore site - they have a detailed list of the changes. We're using 4A S.E. after using 2 and 3 U.S. editions. So far I've been very happy with sm - I really think it teaches concepts more thoroughly than, say saxon, which we have used also. As others have said, we supplement our own drill - Here are 2 sites we use for drill:

http://www.aaastudy.com/grade4.htm

http://www.mathplayground.com/

[AngieW in Texas]

My two older girls did all of Miquon and then did Singapore 3A-6B. My oldest did the 3rd edition (US edition wasn't out yet) and my middle dd did the US edition.

 

My oldest needed to supplement with Key to Fractions, Key to Decimals, and Key to Percents. She did all the problems in the textbooks and the workbooks.

 

My middle didn't need any supplementation and Singapore actually had too much review for her, so she only did the problems in the workbooks.

 

Miquon didn't work for my youngest, so she has done Singapore from 1A up to 4B (where she is currently). She hit a brick wall in 3A, so we stopped Singapore for a full year and tried a lot of different things (Professor B, Moving with Math, MathSteps, CLE Math), but Singapore worked the best out of all the different things we tried, so that's what we went back to. We did just the textbook for 4A (because she'd already covered most of that content with the other programs we tried) and now she's doing both the textbook and the workbook for 4B.

 

Singapore doesn't have enough review for my youngest, so she is also working through Daily Math Practice.

[Zelda]

I really wanted to like Singapore because conceptually it sounded like a great program and I spent a lot of money on it. But when it came time to teach it I was flummoxed. And I don't mean by difficult math concepts. I mean by stuff like addition. I just didn't understand what they were trying to get across. Now, mind you, I'm not at all math oriented so I'm easily tripped up by the unfamiliar in math. I just found Saxon much more approachable and fluid.

 

But, for someone who gets it I think it can be a great program and my kids did like it. Luckily, they like Saxon too.

[Alana in Canada]

Sooner or later, when you ask for opinions, you get every single one!

 

Cons: If you are really adverse to math or very poor in it, then I could see it being hard to teach for you. You need to be comfortable enough with it to read the text and then explain it. This really is not difficult IMHO, but if you are really terrible at math, then it could happen. If that's the case, then hopefully you could find a curriculum that spelled things out clearly enough for *you* and thus your dc to understand.

 

 

I am NOT mathy. I never learned my times tables. I was extremely nervous about teaching math--believe me!

 

I love SM. It takes a very logical approach. That's what works for me and fortuately, it worked for my son. If you respond well to that way of thinking, then, definitely it can work--and work quite well. If not, then the above caveat should definitely be kept in mind!

 

However, having said all that, it's not working as well for my daughter, but I'm not sure why. I *think* it's an attitude thing: she doesn't want to listen to my explanations and insists on doing things her way and she gets frustrated. She may simply need more review (and a more teachable spirit!).

 

I don't know if that's helpful or not.

[Jen500]

I like Singapore. I can 'do' math very well, but I don't always know how to explain elementary school math. And, I just learned 'how to do it' in grade school, nothing conceptual. I have found the Home Instructor's Guides extremely helpful for explaining the concepts. And as Alana said, it is very logical and really makes sense. We also use the Challenging Word Problems workbook and some of the intensive Practice book (as needed for extra practice). I also like the low cost of Singapore. We're using the US Edition which seems to be less $ than the new Standards Edition. No need for a big investment up front. I like that the format of SM makes it easy to go through topics quickly when the dc already understand. And I like the uncluttered pages of the text.

[Storm Bay]

We use Singapore and I love it, but it did take a while to adjust to. Saxon was just a terrible fit for us, and MUS, which I like, was a bit limited for me in terms of word problems and some of the mathematical thinking. I should say that my dc are all on the mathy side of the math learning spectrum.

 

One great book I wish I'd had from the start is The Essential Parents' Guide to Primary Maths by Dr. Fong Ho Kheong. It teaches parents how to approach math differently than we might be used to and the Singapore way. Also, I wish we'd started right of with the Challenging Word Problems, but you don't have to do those.

 

Two things I like to stress in general are that 1. there is no such thing as a perfect math program out there, and 2. there is no such thing as a math program that is a good fit for everyone [my eldest hated the 2 programs my other 2 use and stuck with Saxon for 3 years (she was self teaching for the most part), which I really don't care for at all].

 

Singapore Math assumes that you are drilling math facts separately, although I didn't drill my dd's as they are vs learners. They learned their facts by doing math daily.

[siloam]

I adore the base 10 math of Singapore, and the focus on problem solving.

 

For example: 8+8=? Instead of actually adding the two numbers you move the numbers around so that you are working with 10, because 10 is an easy number to work with. Break 8 into 6+2+8=6+10=16. At first this is unnatural and takes longer, but once it "clicks" it is much faster way of doing math.

 

Anytime the child sees a problem they can't handle they automatically being breaking it into a smaller problem they can do. For example my oldest knows most her times tables but still is a little fuzzy on the upper 7, 8 and 9's. If she runs across a problem like 6x8, she will simply think 3x8=24, 24+24=48.

 

Subtraction is also approached from a base 10: 51-29= There are actually a couple ways to approach this. First one is to break 51 down into an easier amount to work with: 21+30-29= 21+1=22. Second would be to deal with the 10's first then break the problem down to work with the 1's place: 51-29=31-9= 21+10-9= 21+1=22.

 

The biggest down side to Singapore is that if you (as the teacher) didn't learn a base 10 math, you are going have to.

 

To answer some of the questions brought up, though they might be answered elsewhere. I just skimmed the thread.

 

There are 3 editions of Singapore. The 3rd edition have Singapore currency, names and metric measurements. The US Edition has US dollars, mostly US Names (a few are odd) and both US and metric measurements. There is also an edition with a big long name that was created for the California School system. This one you will probalby only find on the Singapore Math website.

 

I think the HIG's are very valuable. They have all the answers, they have a schedule and they include work to memorize math facts. Many problems are also worked out for you in detail. If one isn't the author of the HIG's runs the Singapore Math forums and will work the problem for you there.

 

Realize that with a base 10 system you don't need to memorize any addition/subtraction facts beyond 1-10 because you break any bigger problem down into a 1-10 problem. :D You can take the same approach to multiplication and division, which is why my oldest continues to work on her times tables, but we are not stressing over it.

 

Heather

[MgoBlue]

We only just started Singapore about 2 wks ago, but it seems to make sense. I'm reading Dr. Ma's book (thanks for the recommendation) and it's like...how simple is it to use the commutative property? Dd was struggling to memorize the subtraction facts and within a couple of days of working with her, I'm getting her to see 8 + 5 is the same as 3 + 5 + 5. She know what 5 + 5 is...then add 3. I'm supplementing with other stuff, subtraction drills, etc.

 

We're first time home schoolers. Hopefully I won't wreck her.

[materursa]

I adore the base 10 math of Singapore, and the focus on problem solving.

:iagree: I think Heather described this very well. It can seem a little odd if you weren't taught that way (I wasn't). I would suggest getting the HIG's even from the beginning if this way of teaching is new to you. I think that the author does a good job of explaining these concepts and gives excellent examples.

 

There are 3 versions of Primary Mathematics, like Heather said, 3rd edition, U.S. Edition and Standards Edition (the CA school system one). 3rd edition isn't available (new) anymore. Both the U.S. and Standards editions are available. There are HIG's available for the U.S. Edition, not yet for the standards edition (but they are working on them.) They moved around a few things and added a couple of things to make the U.S. edition fit CA math standards for the Standards Edition. I am leery of any state standards and the U.S. edition has such a proven track record, so we will stick with the U.S. edition.

 

Many people have mentioned that they don't think that Singapore has enough review in it. While the textbooks and workbooks might not have enough review for a "non-mathy" child, there are extra-practice and intensive practice books available for each level as well. That's a lot of review available.

 

 

HTH,

Amanda

[nmoira]

Many people have mentioned that they don't think that Singapore has enough review in it. While the textbooks and workbooks might not have enough review for a "non-mathy" child, there are extra-practice and intensive practice books available for each level as well. That's a lot of review available.

Just a note for those not familiar with the supplemental books. Extra Practice would be appropriate for a non-mathy child; its exercises are about the same level of difficulty as the text. Intensive Practice, however, takes it up a notch, and is ideal for math adept children.

[dawn of ns]

Just a note for those not familiar with the supplemental books. Extra Practice would be appropriate for a non-mathy child; its exercises are about the same level of difficulty as the text. Intensive Practice, however, takes it up a notch, and is ideal for math adept children.

 

Oh. I didn't know this. I just ordered the Intensive Practice. My daughter seems okay with it though. I'm using it as review and we're about a month behind the main text with it.

[mcconnellboys]

I can't think of a negative thing to say except that for some children, who need a lot of drill, just working through the text/workbook might not be enough for them. Nowadays, Singapore has plenty of types of extra practice workbooks out that should help to remedy that problem, however.

[classics4us]

3rd edition isn't available (new) anymore

 

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to lyk, incase someone wanted this edition that the 3rd Edition is available New at www.christianbook.com

 

 

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?Ntk=keywords&Ntt=singapore+3rd+edition&action=Search&N=0&Ne=0&event=ESRCN&nav_search=1&cms=1

 

On monday I order the 3A part two and 3B part one 3rd ed workbooks and recieved them today. hth

[Matryoshka]

I love SM. We've used it from Earlybird till now with all three kids - just starting 5B with the older two. I also find it very logical, and am consistenly impressed with how concepts build on one another.

 

Even in my non-mathy kid, who has cried at it sometimes, I am now seeing the fruit of this method. She probably would have had an easier time with a program that just taught her "how" - she actually is my kid who had the easiest time memorizing facts, but she's always resisted having to think things through. But I think with a traditional program there is no way she would've ever figured out the "why" - she would've just happily plugged in numbers, and I suspect she would've hit a wall in higher math. Now in 5th I am really starting to see it click. She actually told me the other day that she liked the word problems!

 

If anything I'm even more impressed with it as time goes on and I can see where they were going with some of the things they did earlier. I was always good at math, but even I've learned a lot about figuring out word problems!

[Closeacademy]

I love Singapore. We have tried Saxon, Rightstart, worksheets off the internet and Singapore just works for us.

 

Reasons:

 

very visually appealing

fun activities

easy to teach

easy to add manipulatives

easy to shorten or stretch the lessons by adding or subtracting material

thorough

cheap

logical

gives several methods on solving problems

workout for the brain

 

Cons:

 

can move a bit quickly (but then I supplement with other SM books like extra practice or rod and staff which gives us more practice)

 

the child does have to learn to use their brain even though they may not like that very much

 

I have to use my brain to teach it and even to correct answers some times

 

That is where we are at. I have used earlybird-2 times, level 1-on my 2nd time, level 2 and level 3. We have level 4 waiting in the wings.

:001_smile:

[fractalgal]

A few days ago I asked for math help and thanks to those that replied, we've been eating TONS of m&ms.. I mean, math games!

 

The one curriculum that kept coming back to me though was Singapore.

 

Can I get reviews, both positive & negative?

 

Thanks!

 

I will list the cons first.

 

Singapore does not have enough drill, nor enough explanation to help those who are unfamiliar with teaching math. The HIG are helpful, but may not always address the variety of problems.

 

The drill can be supplemented with an outside program or drill sheets. Fortunately, there is a Singapore Math Forum to help with problem questions.

 

Now for the pros:

 

Singapore is wonderful at presenting concepts. You see what happens when you borrow in a subtraction problem or why you carry the one in an addition problem. You see what is going on in a division problem. You see different ways to think of a multiplication problem. Visualizing the concepts helps the child understand what is actually happening when writing math symbols. It does this in a fun way :thumbup:.

 

My favorite part of their curriculum though is the intensive practice and challenging word problems. These books teach the child to creatively solve problems and learn how to deal with frustration, because the answers are not always so obvious. In the process of being frustrated the mind has been stretched and soon the child learns how to think 'outside of the box' [as long as the teacher goes over the correct way to get the solution if the child doesn't understand a problem]. It demands more creative thinking from the child.

 

HTH :)

[mariposa]

to what others have said, but we are using Singapore and Saxon this year and next year I'm probably going to switch to only Singapore.

I really agree though that the greatest weakness of SM is that it does not review facts like Saxon does. I can see that next year I'm going to have to put some effort into extra drills for that.

For me, Saxon is too scripted. I feel like we're moving way too slow, but it's hard to skip ahead (mostly because I still haven't gotten over the feeling that if I don't do EVERY page of a book I'm going to be scarring my children forever!). For example, over a month ago we learned how to tell time to the hour. I think my kids would have been ready later that week to learn more, but we still haven't come back to time. Again, I'd skip ahead, but then the WS would have other concepts they haven't learned yet. But I'd like them to be able to tell time! We took out the Singapore book, turned to that lesson, and boom, they've learned time to the half hour.

I would not characterize my children as mathy. Both DH and I have a very strong English bent and the kids seem to also, but to them SM seems less like "work" and they really enjoy it. I don't know if it's the colorful pictures of if they just like the fact that they "get it" and can work somewhat independently.

HTH! Good luck with your decision..

Sarah

[Haiku]

Ooops, already replied to this thread!

 

Tara

Edited January 18, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[Penelope]

I think it's a great program. I think that someone who doesn't really understand elementary math might not be able to teach it well with the materials available. I feel like I need the HIGs and I already do mental math the Singapore way. If you only had the textbook, there is no text guiding you at the 1-2 levels. You would not know that you are to teach concrete first, then go to the pictorial of the text.

 

I like how it logically progresses. Ds really likes the program. He is excited to do math every day. Of course, it's possible he would be excited with other programs, too! :)

 

Random thought-- I know Singapore has great results with this program (along with even more practice and daily drill, from what I understand) but I do wonder how much of elementary math success is due to the program used, and how much is teacher-dependent and/or cultural. I am not 100% sure that teaching conceptual math to elementary students i necessarily superior n the long run. My basis for saying this is that I, DH, and I'm sure many other folks learned rote math in elementary, yet as we grew up and our brains developed and we had years of practice including using basic arithmetic in the service of hgher math-- the conceptual understanding developed on its own and can do mental math and do understand the reasoning behind the arithmetic algorithms without being taught specifically at a young age. I think that is an argument for not using calculators routinely until college calculus. :D When you don't have a calculator it forces your mind to work faster over time. Whoops, sorry for the tangent!!

[elegantlion]

We switched from Abeka math to Singapore last year and it has been a breath of fresh air. I wish we had found it sooner.

 

PROs: my ds thinks very mathematically. He needs one or two explanations and he can tackle the problems.

 

It's a mastery program. My ds had trouble switching to the many different type of problems Abeka had on one page. Singapore allows him to focus on one issue at a time.

 

I love that it integrates a lot of metric work. My son also enjoys science and knows metric better than US.

 

The word problems are terrific. Even if I didn't love the program, I'd love their word problems. They truly make the student think.

 

The program makes sense to me. I remember the first week we started. I realized ds was thinking through the math in the manner in which I used it as a adult.

 

CONS: Not enough drill for those that need it. We continue to drill math facts as a supplement.

 

I do not like the HIGs. I own them, but never use them. I find the layout a tad frustrating and since ds catches onto a concept easily I don't find them too useful.

 

The program can speed through a concept too quickly. This could be rectified with the IP or Extra Practice books.

 

It can appear to be an inexpensive program. However if you buy the HIGs and any extra books the expense can add up quickly. (Not really about the program, but can be a factor when making a budget)