Boy Scouts’ President Calls for End to Ban on Gay Leaders

[SeaConquest]

Breaking News: Boy Scouts of America President Bob Gates warned executives that “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,†and that “any other alternative will be the end of us as a national movement.â€

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/us/boy-scouts-president-calls-for-end-to-ban-on-gay-leaders.html?smid=fb-nytimes

[8circles]

Wow.  That's truly news.  Thanks for posting.

[justasque]

Here is the relevant section of Mr. Gates's remarks.  Please excuse the caps!

FINALLY, LET ME ADDRESS MEMBERSHIP POLICY.

 

I TOLD YOU A YEAR AGO THAT I WOULD OPPOSE REOPENING THIS ISSUE DURING MY TWO-YEAR TERM AS PRESIDENT OF THE BSA. I HAD HOPED THEN FOR A RESPITE DURING WHICH WE COULD FOCUS ON HEALING OUR DIVISIONS FROM THE 2013 DECISION, IMPROVING OUR PROGRAM, STRENGTHENING OUR FINANCES AND ENDING OUR DECLINE IN MEMBERSHIP.

 

HOWEVER, EVENTS DURING THE PAST YEAR HAVE CONFRONTED US WITH URGENT CHALLENGES I DID NOT FORESEE AND WHICH WE CANNOT IGNORE. WE CANNOT IGNORE GROWING INTERNAL CHALLENGES TO OUR CURRENT MEMBERSHIP POLICY, FROM SOME COUNCILS – LIKE THE GREATER NEW YORK COUNCIL, THE DENVER AREA COUNCIL, AND OTHERS – IN OPEN DEFIANCE OF THE POLICY, TO MORE AND MORE COUNCILS TAKING A POSITION 13 IN THEIR MISSION STATEMENTS AND PUBLIC DOCUMENTS CONTRARY TO NATIONAL POLICY.

 

NOR CAN WE IGNORE THE SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND JURIDICIAL CHANGES TAKING PLACE IN OUR COUNTRY – CHANGES TAKING PLACE AT A PACE OVER THIS PAST YEAR NO ONE ANTICIPATED. I REMIND YOU OF THE RECENT DEBATES WE HAVE SEEN IN PLACES LIKE INDIANA AND ARKANSAS OVER DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION, NOT TO MENTION THE IMPENDING U.S. SUPREME COURT DECISION THIS SUMMER ON GAY MARRIAGE.

 

I AM NOT ASKING THE NATIONAL BOARD FOR ANY ACTION TO CHANGE OUR CURRENT POLICY AT THIS MEETING. BUT I MUST SPEAK AS PLAINLY AND BLUNTLY TO YOU AS I SPOKE TO PRESIDENTS WHEN I WAS DIRECTOR OF CIA AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE. WE MUST DEAL WITH THE WORLD AS IT IS, NOT AS WE MIGHT WISH IT TO BE. THE 14 STATUS QUO IN OUR MOVEMENT’S MEMBERSHIP STANDARDS CANNOT BE SUSTAINED.

 

WE CAN EXPECT MORE COUNCILS TO OPENLY CHALLENGE THE CURRENT POLICY. WHILE TECHNICALLY WE HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO REVOKE THEIR CHARTERS, SUCH AN ACTION WOULD DENY THE LIFELONG BENEFITS OF SCOUTING TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BOYS AND YOUNG MEN TODAY AND VASTLY MORE IN THE FUTURE. I WILL NOT TAKE THAT PATH.

 

MOREOVER, DOZENS OF STATES – FROM NEW YORK TO UTAH – ARE PASSING LAWS THAT PROTECT EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS ON THE BASIS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION. THUS, BETWEEN INTERNAL CHALLENGES AND POTENTIAL LEGAL CONFLICTS, THE BSA FINDS ITSELF IN AN UNSUSTAINABLE POSITION. A POSITION THAT MAKES US VULNERABLE TO THE POSSIBILITY THE COURTS SIMPLY WILL ORDER US AT SOME POINT TO CHANGE OUR MEMBERSHIP POLICY. WE 15 MUST ALL UNDERSTAND THAT THIS PROBABLY WILL HAPPEN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

 

IN 2010, A FEDERAL DISTRICT JUDGE IN CALIFORNIA OVERTURNED THE MILITARY’S DON’T ASK, DON’T TELL LAW AND THE REVERSAL WAS APPLIED NATIONWIDE IMMEDIATELY. ONLY A STAY GRANTED BY THE APPEALS COURT – GRANTED, I BELIEVE, MAINLY BECAUSE WE WERE IN THE PROCESS OF CHANGING THE LAW – PREVENTED DRAMATIC DISRUPTION IN THE ARMED FORCES.

 

WE CANNOT PREDICT IF OR WHEN THIS MIGHT HAPPEN TO US, BUT I PERSONALLY BELIEVE OUR LEGAL DEFENSES HAVE WEAKENED SINCE THE DALE CASE. AND IF WE WAIT FOR THE COURTS TO ACT, WE COULD END UP WITH A BROAD RULING THAT COULD FORBID ANY KIND OF MEMBERSHIP STANDARD, INCLUDING OUR FOUNDATIONAL BELIEF IN OUR DUTY TO GOD AND OUR FOCUS ON SERVING 16 THE SPECIFIC NEEDS OF BOYS. WAITING FOR THE COURTS IS A GAMBLE WITH HUGE STAKES.

 

ALTERNATIVELY, WE CAN MOVE AT SOME FUTURE DATE – BUT SOONER RATHER THAN LATER – TO SEIZE CONTROL OF OUR OWN FUTURE, SET OUR OWN COURSE AND CHANGE OUR POLICY IN ORDER TO ALLOW CHARTER PARTNERS – UNIT SPONSORING ORGANIZATIONS – TO DETERMINE THE STANDARDS FOR THEIR SCOUT LEADERS. SUCH AN APPROACH WOULD ALLOW ALL CHURCHES, WHICH SPONSOR SOME 70% OF OUR SCOUT UNITS, TO ESTABLISH LEADERSHIP STANDARDS CONSISTENT WITH THEIR FAITH. WE MUST, AT ALL COSTS, PRESERVE THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM OF OUR CHURCH PARTNERS TO DO THIS.

 

OUR OATH CALLS UPON US TO DO OUR DUTY TO GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. THE COUNTRY IS CHANGING AND WE ARE INCREASINGLY AT ODDS WITH THE LEGAL LANDSCAPE 17 AT BOTH THE STATE AND FEDERAL LEVELS. AND, AS A MOVEMENT, WE FIND OURSELVES WITH A POLICY MORE THAN A FEW OF OUR CHURCH SPONSORS REJECT – THUS PLACING SCOUTING BETWEEN A BOY AND HIS CHURCH.

 

THE CHALLENGES ARE BEFORE US NOW. THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, THE NATIONAL EXECUTIVE BOARD AND OUR LEGAL COUNSEL WILL WORK TO DETERMINE OUR RESPONSES AND OUR BEST STRATEGY. WE WANT AND VALUE YOUR THOUGHTS ON ALL THIS, RECOGNIZING THE IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING OUR CORE VALUES.

 

THE ONE THING WE CANNOT DO IS PUT OUR HEADS IN THE SAND AND PRETEND THIS CHALLENGE WILL GO AWAY OR ABATE. QUITE THE OPPOSITE IS HAPPENING.

 

I KNOW MY REMARKS ON THIS SUBJECT UNSETTLE MANY OF YOU. SOME OF YOU MIGHT BE ANGRY THAT I RAISE THIS SUBJECT AND WITH WHAT I HAVE SAID. BUT 18 THIS MOVEMENT SHAPED MY LIFE AND MY ONLY PURPOSE – MY ONLY REASON FOR ASSUMING THIS LEADERSHIP ROLE – IS TO PRESERVE THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA IN RECOGNITION OF ALL IT HAS DONE FOR THIS COUNTRY, AND ALL IT CAN AND MUST DO IN THE FUTURE. SCOUTING IS NEEDED IN THIS COUNTRY NOW MORE THAN EVER.

 

I ASSURE YOU THAT I HAVE NO HIDDEN AGENDA. I WANT ONLY TO APPRISE YOU OF THE NEW REALITY I SEE: THAT BOTH INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL EVENTS AND PRESSURES OVER THE PAST YEAR AND LOOKING TO THE FUTURE WILL REQUIRE ACTION AT SOME POINT.

 

FOR NOW, I ASK THAT, IN THE DAYS AND MONTHS AHEAD, EVERYONE HERE REFLECT AND PRAY ON OUR PATH FORWARD. WE CAN ACT ON OUR OWN OR WE CAN BE FORCED TO ACT BUT, EITHER WAY, I SUSPECT WE DON’T HAVE A LOT OF TIME.

 

FOR ME, I SUPPORT A POLICY THAT ACCEPTS AND RESPECTS OUR DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND BELIEFS, ALLOWS RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS – BASED ON FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTION OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM – TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN STANDARDS FOR ADULT LEADERS, AND PRESERVES THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA NOW AND FOREVER.

 

I TRULY FEAR THAT ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE WILL BE THE END OF US AS A NATIONAL MOVEMENT.

 

EVERY DAY, IN EVERY COMMUNITY IN AMERICA, SCOUTING IS CHANGING THE LIVES OF BOYS AND YOUNG MEN – TEACHING THEM SKILLS AND LEADERSHIP, HELPING THEM BUILD CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY. EVERY DAY, IN EVERY COMMUNITY, SCOUTING MAKES THOSE COMMUNITIES BETTER PLACES TO LIVE. WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 105 YEARS. I AM CONFIDENT WE WILL DO SO FOR ANOTHER 105 YEARS AS LONG AS WE STAND 20 TOGETHER, UNITED IN OUR SINGULAR MISSION TO SERVE AMERICAN YOUTH. 

[ebrindam]

Good.

[Kipling]

I recognize that people will have different responses to this news, and I don't want to stir up any arguments.  However, if you are interested in something like Scouts, but you are disappointed with BSA's recent policy changes, I would encourage you to look into Trail Life USA.  It started in 2013 and has been growing by leaps and bounds across the nation. My husband and son have been involved in a local Trail Life troop for over a year and love it.  You can find out more on their website and also see if a troop is located near you. http://www.traillifeusa.com/

(If you support BSA's decisions, then just ignore this post.  Please don't pull it into a huge argument.  People want different things in scouting groups for their boys, and my intention in posting it to let people know about another option.)

[justasque]

The NYT article says, "The treatment of gay men and boys has been a source of wrenching debate over the last decade."  But it's not just about gay men and boys.  This statement leaves out the experiences of enthusiastic and capable Cub Scout Den Mothers who have not been allowed to continue serving as such under the current and former policies. (The scouts also employ women and girls in their stores, their administrative positions, and at their summer camps in jobs such as lifeguards, camp counselors, and first aid staff.)

[SeaConquest]

I recognize that people will have different responses to this news, and I don't want to stir up any arguments.  However, if you are interested in something like Scouts, but you are disappointed with BSA's recent policy changes, I would encourage you to look into Trail Life USA.  It started in 2013 and has been growing by leaps and bounds across the nation. My husband and son have been involved in a local Trail Life troop for over a year and love it.  You can find out more on their website and also see if a troop is located near you. http://www.traillifeusa.com/

(If you support BSA's decisions, then just ignore this post.  Please don't pull it into a huge argument.  People want different things in scouting groups for their boys, and my intention in posting it to let people know about another option.)

 

I think this speaks for itself:

 

Membership Standards for Trail Life USA

Membership in the program has both youth and adult elements.

Youth membership in the program is open to all who meet the membership requirements, and is currently designed for biologically male children under the age of 18.

The adult applicant must be at least 18 years of age and subscribe to and abide by the Trail Life USA Statement of Christian Faith and Values as well as the Oath and Motto of the program.

While the program is undergirded by Biblical values and unapologetically reflects a Christian worldview, there is also a clearly defined inclusion policy for youth. Accordingly, all boys are welcome irrespective of religion, race, national origin or socio-economic status. Our goal is for parents and families of every faith to be able to place their boys in a youth program that endeavors to provide moral consistency and ethical integrity in its adult leaders.

Charter partners own and operate local groups, selecting leaders and admitting members as they deem beneficial to their group and within the parameters of the national policy.

The basis for the program’s ethical and moral standards is found in the Bible. In terms of sexual identification and behavior, we affirm that any sexual activity outside the context of the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman is sinful before God and therefore inconsistent with the values and principles of the program.

Within these limits, we grant membership to adults and youth who do not engage in or promote sexual immorality of any kind, or engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the program.

We welcome boys whose parents are seeking a faith-based outdoor adventure program that places an emphasis on character development, leadership, and moral purity, and who aspire to live in accordance with the values expressed in the program’s Oath and Creed.

- See more at: http://www.traillifeusa.com/who-we-are/values/membership-standards/#sthash.McVE9ti4.dpuf

[Orthodox6]

People do deal with the world as it is. There are different ways to do so, and not all ways appeal to all people. This is not somethng new.

[justasque]

I recognize that people will have different responses to this news, and I don't want to stir up any arguments.  However, if you are interested in something like Scouts, but you are disappointed with BSA's recent policy changes, I would encourage you to look into Trail Life USA.  It started in 2013 and has been growing by leaps and bounds across the nation. My husband and son have been involved in a local Trail Life troop for over a year and love it.  You can find out more on their website and also see if a troop is located near you. http://www.traillifeusa.com/

(If you support BSA's decisions, then just ignore this post.  Please don't pull it into a huge argument.  People want different things in scouting groups for their boys, and my intention in posting it to let people know about another option.)

I wonder, though, if Trail Life USA is likely to find themselves with the same concerns as BSA - as the BSA president said, "OUR LEGAL DEFENSES HAVE WEAKENED SINCE THE DALE CASE".  (Excuse the caps!)

 

Trail Life's membership policy is very similar to the BSA's current policy.  

[Lawyer&Mom]

An end to the blanket ban seems appropriate. Churches could decide their own criteria, some would allow gay leaders and some wouldn't. That works for me, it's their right of free association.

[Mrs. Tharp]

Wow. Great speech. I'm sure they'll be changing their policy soon to do exactly what he recommends.

 

Love this:

 

FOR ME, I SUPPORT A POLICY THAT ACCEPTS AND RESPECTS OUR DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND BELIEFS, ALLOWS RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS – BASED ON FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTION OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM – TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN STANDARDS FOR ADULT LEADERS, AND PRESERVES THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA NOW AND FOREVER.

[Orthodox6]

An end to the blanket ban seems appropriate. Churches could decide their own criteria, some would allow gay leaders and some wouldn't. That works for me, it's their right of free association.

Haven't been around scouts since my sons were young. Is not a church-affiliated scout troop subject to the dictates of the national scouting organization? Pick-and-Choose would have to be allowed by explicit verbiage.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Haven't been around scouts since my sons were young. Is not a church-affiliated scout troop subject to the dictates of the national scouting organization? Pick-and-Choose would have to be allowed by explicit verbiage.

Pick and Choose is what he is recommending. End the blanket ban, but let the sponsors of individual troops decide.

[LucyStoner]

I wonder, though, if Trail Life USA is likely to find themselves with the same concerns as BSA - as the BSA president said, "OUR LEGAL DEFENSES HAVE WEAKENED SINCE THE DALE CASE". (Excuse the caps!)

 

Trail Life's membership policy is very similar to the BSA's current policy.

Trail Life is a fledgling organization with considerably less to lose than BSA. I would assume they are less vulnerable to funding and legal pressures because they aren't as large as BSA or employing nearly as many people. I think what is more likely than external legal action would be the loss of revenue and such from families opting out.

[Lady Florida.]

The NYT article says, "The treatment of gay men and boys has been a source of wrenching debate over the last decade."  But it's not just about gay men and boys.  This statement leaves out the experiences of enthusiastic and capable Cub Scout Den Mothers who have not been allowed to continue serving as such under the current and former policies. (The scouts also employ women and girls in their stores, their administrative positions, and at their summer camps in jobs such as lifeguards, camp counselors, and first aid staff.)

 

That's great news for some. My son was in Cub Scouts but never made it to Boy Scouts. He quit after we learned of the policy regarding atheists. According to BSA, my son can never grow to be "the best kind of citizen".  I doubt that policy of theirs will ever change. :(

[justasque]

FWIW, both BSA and Trail Life have very similar membership policies, basically banning gay adult members and allowing gay youth members so long as they are celibate. 

Here is the relevant part of the BSA's membership policy:

...

WHEREAS, the current adult leadership standard of the Boy Scouts of America states:

 

The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and abide by the Scout Oath and the Scout Law.

 

While the BSA does not proactively inquire about sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.

 

 

AND WHEREAS, Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting; and

 

 

WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America does not have an agenda on the matter of sexual orientation, and resolving this complex issue is not the role of the organization, nor may any member use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda; and

 

WHEREAS, youth are still developing, learning about themselves and who they are, developing their sense of right and wrong, and understanding their duty to God to live a moral life; and

 

WHEREAS, America needs Scouting, and the organization's policies must be based on what is in the best interest of its young people, and the organization will work to stay focused on that which unites us, and

 

WHEREAS, the Boy Scouts of America will maintain the current membership policy for all adult leaders of the Boy Scouts of America, and

 

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED THAT:

 

The following membership standard for youth members of the Boy Scouts of America is hereby adopted and approved, effective Jan. 1, 2014:

Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all youth who meet the specific membership requirements to join the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Sea Scout, and Venturing programs. Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and © demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.

 

Here is Trail Life's policy:

 

 

Youth membership in the program is open to all who meet the membership requirements, and is currently designed for biologically male children under the age of 18.

 

The adult applicant must be at least 18 years of age and subscribe to and abide by the Trail Life USA Statement of Christian Faith and Values as well as the Oath and Motto of the program.

 

While the program is undergirded by Biblical values and unapologetically reflects a Christian worldview, there is also a clearly defined inclusion policy for youth. Accordingly, all boys are welcome irrespective of religion, race, national origin or socio-economic status. Our goal is for parents and families of every faith to be able to place their boys in a youth program that endeavors to provide moral consistency and ethical integrity in its adult leaders.

 

Charter partners own and operate local groups, selecting leaders and admitting members as they deem beneficial to their group and within the parameters of the national policy.

 

The basis for the program’s ethical and moral standards is found in the Bible. In terms of sexual identification and behavior, we affirm that any sexual activity outside the context of the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman is sinful before God and therefore inconsistent with the values and principles of the program.

 

Within these limits, we grant membership to adults and youth who do not engage in or promote sexual immorality of any kind, or engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the program.

 

We welcome boys whose parents are seeking a faith-based outdoor adventure program that places an emphasis on character development, leadership, and moral purity, and who aspire to live in accordance with the values expressed in the program’s Oath and Creed.

 

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

I find Bob Gates warning that “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,†an appalling extension of the bigoted thinking that has brought disrepute on the BSA in the first place.

 

There is no magnanimity in these words, no apology to those the BSA has wronged, just a calculated realization the scouts are on the wrong side of history.

 

Not much to cheer, other than knowing justice usually prevails, and bigots eventually lose. Gates is still a bigot, just one who has seen the handwriting on the wall. Later than most. Nothing for the BSA to feel proud about, it will be a stain on their reputation for all time.

 

Bill

[Jenn121]

I wonder, though, if Trail Life USA is likely to find themselves with the same concerns as BSA - as the BSA president said, "OUR LEGAL DEFENSES HAVE WEAKENED SINCE THE DALE CASE".  (Excuse the caps!)

 

Trail Life's membership policy is very similar to the BSA's current policy.  

 

TrailLife USA identifies itself as a Christian organization. BSA does not. Traillife would have legal arguments that BSA does not due to that claim.  

[justasque]

An end to the blanket ban seems appropriate. Churches could decide their own criteria, some would allow gay leaders and some wouldn't. That works for me, it's their right of free association.

While this seems like a common-sense solution, the concern in the past has been that if the BSA allows differing policies on this point, they are undermining the argument they made in the Dale case that "morally straight" (interpreted as sexually "straight") is a core part of the BSA's values, which leaves individual troops and councils vulnerable to legal challenges that can't/won't be defended by the larger organization (and that therefore could bankrupt those troops who choose to discriminate).

[mamaraby]

That's great news for some. My son was in Cub Scouts but quit after we learned of the policy regarding atheists. According to BSA, my son can never grow to be "the best kind of citizen". I doubt that policy of theirs will ever change. :(

I agree. I would certainly think slightly better of BSA if they were to remove the overall ban in gay leaders. However, BSA will always be out for my son as long as their policy regarding atheists stands. They've made it clear he's not welcome.

[DawnM]

I recognize that people will have different responses to this news, and I don't want to stir up any arguments.  However, if you are interested in something like Scouts, but you are disappointed with BSA's recent policy changes, I would encourage you to look into Trail Life USA.  It started in 2013 and has been growing by leaps and bounds across the nation. My husband and son have been involved in a local Trail Life troop for over a year and love it.  You can find out more on their website and also see if a troop is located near you. http://www.traillifeusa.com/

(If you support BSA's decisions, then just ignore this post.  Please don't pull it into a huge argument.  People want different things in scouting groups for their boys, and my intention in posting it to let people know about another option.)

 

 

My understanding is that they still don't have a good program for the older boys and are focusing on the Cub level and getting that going first.

 

I am not against a new program at all, but for those of us whose boys are this far along, there is no way we will look at switching.

 

My oldest starts his Eagle project THIS WEEKEND!!!!!!!!!

 

I am not arguing at all, I just want people to know this isn't exactly like boy scouts.

[.Michelle.]

We have a Cub Scout.  We're also very religious.  I can't get very worked up about this and I'm not going to bother trying. 

[Kipling]

My understanding is that they still don't have a good program for the older boys and are focusing on the Cub level and getting that going first.

 

I am not against a new program at all, but for those of us whose boys are this far along, there is no way we will look at switching.

 

My oldest starts his Eagle project THIS WEEKEND!!!!!!!!!

 

I am not arguing at all, I just want people to know this isn't exactly like boy scouts

 

 

I think that just depends on the individual troops.   Trail Life USA does have a complete program for elementary, middle, and high school aged boys.  Our local troop has quite a few 6-9th grade boys, and they have a handbook and receive awards for completed items.  The troop has two boys who transferred from BSA, and they were able to receive credit for the work done in BSA. 

 

However, I believe some troops have selected to only start with the younger ages for precisely the reason you stated - many current boy scouts are not going to switch at this point in their lives, and few boys join a scouting group of any kind for the first time when they are in high school.

 

Congratulations on your son's progress.  Eagle Scout is an awesome achievement.

[raptor_dad]

I find Bob Gates warning that “we must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be,†an appalling extension of the bigoted thinking that has brought disrepute on the BSA in the first place.

 

There is no magnanimity in these words, no apology to those the BSA has wronged, just a calculated realization the scouts are on the wrong side of history.

 

Not much to cheer, other than knowing justice usually prevails, and bigots eventually lose. Gates is still a bigot, just one who has seen the handwriting on the wall. Later than most. Nothing for the BSA to feel proud about, it will be a stain on their reputation for all time.

 

Bill

 

I agree with everything you say... but I just want national BSA to get out of the way of the local councils and troops.

 

This year I put my moral qualms aside since it was clear Cub Scouts was such an important social outlet for DS6 and DS8. In our 3.5M+ population metro area there were a total of 2 pack/troops that were a fit for us. Both have had gay leadership on and off for 15+ years. They have run their own summer camps in the past to get around national policy. They have consistently refused to sign any documents about national policy and yet have never been expelled. We are in the liberal church so prohibiting gay leaders means you also have to exclude gay clergy. That is clearly a non-starter. I wish there was a credible liberal alternative to BSA in this country but there just isn't... When we were looking at moving to Toronto, I really liked the more liberal and coed nature of Scouts in Canada... Scouting is one of those painful areas where I've had to compromise deeply help beliefs to do what is right for my kids. So I view this as a potentially huge step forward. 

 

ETA: On the atheist issue... that was a controversy in the 80's in my council and they eventually came down saying that any belief in a higher being *or* belief in a deeply held moral code was sufficient. Sort of blurs the line between Moral and Reverent but whatever... I don't know if national has overridden that as well...

[Lawyer&Mom]

While this seems like a common-sense solution, the concern in the past has been that if the BSA allows differing policies on this point, they are undermining the argument they made in the Dale case that "morally straight" (interpreted as sexually "straight") is a core part of the BSA's values, which leaves individual troops and councils vulnerable to legal challenges that can't/won't be defended by the larger organization (and that therefore could bankrupt those troops who choose to discriminate).

First, let's just say I'm not going to lose sleep over the fate of troops who choose to discriminate.

 

Second, I think the church based troops would have a pretty good first amendment claim. Teachers at religious schools have been held to be ministers, and are thus exempt from discrimination laws. Hosanna-Tabor vs. EEOC, 132 S. Ct. 694 (2012). And that was a 9-0 Supreme Court verdict. I imagine a majority of the court would hold that troop leaders would also qualify for the ministerial exception.

[Lady Florida.]

. 

 

ETA: On the atheist issue... that was a controversy in the 80's in my council and they eventually came down saying that any belief in a higher being *or* belief in a deeply held moral code was sufficient. Sort of blurs the line between Moral and Reverent but whatever... I don't know if national has overridden that as well...

 

See, I could get behind a deeply held belief in a moral code, but we weren't given that option. His Cub Scout leader was pretty loose about it all, but made it clear that we probably couldn't expect that when he crossed over. We were told by some to just pretend the "higher power" was humanity in a we are all connected kind of way, but I didn't think it was right to teach him to pretend to be who he is not. I left the decision up to him but he agreed.

 

Camp Fire USA allows a loosey-goosey interpretation of "god". Fortunately our local council of Camp Fire USA is one of the few (only?) in the country that puts an emphasis on outdoor skills. The older kids don't do the usual Camp Fire curriculum (which is rather book heavy and introspective) but follow one written by the council instead, that teaches leadership through outdoor skills and activities. It began in the late 70's and they have permission from National to continue it all the way up to the teen years. I often forget, when I recommend it as an alternative to Boy Scouts, that most Camp Fire clubs aren't run like ours.

[JennyD]

The Boy Scouts do not have a legal problem. In Dale, the Court held that BSA has a constitutionally protected right to express their message against same-sex relationships. If BSA has not actually changed its own message, then there is no reason to think that any court in the US would require them to change their membership criteria, regardless of changes in state and local law.

 

What the Boy Scouts do apparently have is a mounting political problem, not to mention what sound like some fairly serious organizational problems. They are using the threat of legal action as cover for what is simply, as Bill aptly describes it, the acknowledgement that they are on the wrong side of history for this particular issue.

[MistyMountain]

This is great news. I just hope they also accept children who do not follow a religion in the near future. We technically go to a church (UU) but my ds is an open atheist and he may decide to not go to church in the future. He is looking forward to getting to join the cubs scouts now that he finished kindergarten. I hope in the future he is not prevented from becoming a Boy Scout because of discrimination. I could see him still being into it when he is older. It annoys me that people deem us unworthy and untrustworthy and would discriminate my child because we have different beliefs.

[poppy]

So, so glad to hear this.  I know SO many people who would not consider Boy Scouts due because of its choice to discriminate.   I'm not sure what I would do, I know many good people are involved in Boy Scouts despite its flaws.     This would make my choice a no-brainer.  I am a Girl Scout leader, my husband was an Eagle Scout, and I hope my son (just 4 now) has a long and happy Boy Scout career.

[DawnM]

I think that just depends on the individual troops.   Trail Life USA does have a complete program for elementary, middle, and high school aged boys.  Our local troop has quite a few 6-9th grade boys, and they have a handbook and receive awards for completed items.  The troop has two boys who transferred from BSA, and they were able to receive credit for the work done in BSA. 

 

However, I believe some troops have selected to only start with the younger ages for precisely the reason you stated - many current boy scouts are not going to switch at this point in their lives, and few boys join a scouting group of any kind for the first time when they are in high school.

 

Congratulations on your son's progress.  Eagle Scout is an awesome achievement.

 

 

Even 6th-9th won't help us much.  My oldest is an 11th grader and my middle is a rising 10th grader.

 

However, even my friend in the program say it isn't quite together yet and it isn't as "like boy scouts" as they first touted.

[SeaConquest]

For any Jews, there is also the Israeli scouting movement (Tzofim). They have organizations all across the world.

 

http://www.israelscouts.org/#!contact-us/c9cw

 

ETA: The Tzofim movement is co-ed, non-political, and includes people of all faiths, as well as secular folks.

 

http://www.israelscouts.org/#!tzofim-in-israel/c18e6

 

[Audrey]

Their anti-gay stance is just one symptom of why they're failing as an organization. If they don't see that, then they'll still be a failing organization. Their blatant discrimination issues aside, the BSA and many other long-time youth organizations are failing because they have not remained relevant to contemporary youth. 4H, the Girl Scouts, YMCA are all facing the same things. They're all headed by adults who want the kids to have what they had, but who also fail to take the wants, needs and realities of the current crop of youth into consideration. If the Boy Scouts (and other youth orgs) dwindle down to nothing, it won't solely be because of the discrimination they uphold, it will be because they let themselves become irrelevant to young people. Although, the BSA can play the cop-out of throwing themselves on the martyr's sword and claiming they were persecuted for sticking to their out-dated discrimination stance.

[SilverMoon]

On 5/21/2015 at 12:14 PM, DawnM said:

 

 

 

On 5/21/2015 at 2:27 PM, DawnM said:

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by SilverMoon

[DawnM]

Well done Mom! Congrats!

 

 

Same here with an older boy. It would take far more than another political kerfuffle to get us to pull my 16yo DS and almost 15yo Venture DD out. DS/6th was lured into a few TL meetings last year just because they happen at the same time and at the same church as my girls' AHG meeting. Their handbooks left me very underwhelmed. Yes, I know, it all depends on the leaders and how they're rolling out the program, but TL simply can't offer my kids over half of what they're getting now. Mine would miss out on more than merit badges, summer camps, and the Eagle; the older two are eligible for stuff like Philmont, Catalina Island, and Seabase now. (When the younger boy realized there was nothing even close to the NOVA science program he never looked back. I'll go read a book in the back of the AHG room. Thanks anyway.)

 

 

Mine have done Philmont and Summit.  So far they both say they aren't interested in Northern Tier but we will see.  Our troop plans to do that next year.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Pick and Choose is what he is recommending. End the blanket ban, but let the sponsors of individual troops decide.

 

This seems ok to me.  I wish the world were a different place in this department, but in some parts of the country the fact is not everyone has such a damn hard time with letting gay people into their clubs.  I suspect in many cases individual groups probably overlooked stuff anyway.  (I don't agree with "overlooking" and I don't think that is enough, but just saying I suspect there have been gay boy scouts and scout leaders and people got over it.)

 

Step in the right direction, but still doesn't make me want to go and sign my kids up for it.

 

 

[justasque]

Pick and Choose is what he is recommending. End the blanket ban, but let the sponsors of individual troops decide.

This came up the last go-round.  For the pro-inclusion folks, it seems like a step in the right direction, that lets everyone have what they want.  For the anti-inclusion folks, it works only at the troop level.  Most scouts mix with other troops at local events, summer camp, high adventure trips, and so on.  And in some ways those places are more of a concern for those who are against inclusion than the local troop meetings, because the Scouts have more freedom to mix-and-mingle with Scouts and Leaders from other troops.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out this time around.

[DawnM]

This came up the last go-round.  For the pro-inclusion folks, it seems like a step in the right direction, that lets everyone have what they want.  For the anti-inclusion folks, it works only at the troop level.  Most scouts mix with other troops at local events, summer camp, high adventure trips, and so on.  And in some ways those places are more of a concern for those who are against inclusion than the local troop meetings, because the Scouts have more freedom to mix-and-mingle with Scouts and Leaders from other troops.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out this time around.

 

 

Honestly, I think it is ok for diff. troops to have diff. rules.  LDS troops have only LDS leaders, some other religious groups have only their religious leaders.

 

Yes, they do "mingle" and several families who were concerned have decided their own boys in their family will only do troop stuff, no outside stuff.  I don't agree, but they are within their right to do it.

[justasque]

While I would rather see kids involved than not, it is a shame that any of them would miss out on opportunities to meet and work with scouts beyond the troop level. It is a good way to meet people from a wide range of backgrounds, build friendships based on shared interests, and gain respect for each other despite the differences through working side by side towards common goals. For my kids, it has been one of the most valuable benefits of being involved with Scouting.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[justasque]

DP

[poppy]

Their anti-gay stance is just one symptom of why they're failing as an organization. If they don't see that, then they'll still be a failing organization. Their blatant discrimination issues aside, the BSA and many other long-time youth organizations are failing because they have not remained relevant to contemporary youth. 4H, the Girl Scouts, YMCA are all facing the same things. They're all headed by adults who want the kids to have what they had, but who also fail to take the wants, needs and realities of the current crop of youth into consideration. If the Boy Scouts (and other youth orgs) dwindle down to nothing, it won't solely be because of the discrimination they uphold, it will be because they let themselves become irrelevant to young people. Although, the BSA can play the cop-out of throwing themselves on the martyr's sword and claiming they were persecuted for sticking to their out-dated discrimination stance.

 

Absolute hogwash.  Today's contemporary youth are not that different from yesterday's contemporary youth.  Companionship, service, adventure, new skills. These are all things today's kids crave, just like kids have craved since the modern concept of childhood was invented.

[MistyMountain]

The Girl Scouts do not discriminate and accept all girls regardless of who they are in love with or what beliefs they have or do not have. Not discriminating has not created a bunch of heathen girls who all think the same way. Girl Scouts has been great for my dd. I hope the Boy Scouts will be the same in the future. I do not understand shielding kids from the fact that people have different beliefs. If the Boy Scouts changes to not allow discrimination against religion or sexual orientation there would be troops that excluded people and discriminated to take its place but all kids could take part in the bigger scouting organization and the benefits that scouting offers to those interested in scouting.