Islamist wants to see shari law in America and Europe

[Tanaqui]

National Intelligence Director James Clapper testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee that "When the final accounting is done, 2014 will have been the most lethal year for global terrorism in the 45 years (since) such data has been compiled,"

 

If that turns out to be the case, I'll admit I was wrong with regards to 2014. Wonder when we'll have that information? Well, I'm sure it'll be in all the media when we do.

 

As far as huddling in bunkers, well I'm in the south and there is Devils dandruff on the ground so we are all huddling with our tp and bread that we bought every grocery store out of.

 

 

What, no milk?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

What, no milk?

 

Or eggs.

 

The three staples in Atlanta when it snows are milk, eggs, and bread.  Apparently we are all supposed to make french toast.

[MSNative]

If that turns out to be the case, I'll admit I was wrong with regards to 2014. Wonder when we'll have that information? Well, I'm sure it'll be in all the media when we do.

 

 

What, no milk?

Oops! Yep I forgot about the milk. That got wiped out fast. As did all alcoholic mixers. Who knew that in a blizzard, you need tonic water to survive. I mean I knew that was part of hurricane survival. ;)

[MSNative]

Or eggs.

 

The three staples in Atlanta when it snows are milk, eggs, and bread. Apparently we are all supposed to make french toast.

Lol!!! The only way to survive ice-pocalypse - french toast.

[Tanaqui]

Lol!!! The only way to survive ice-pocalypse - french toast.

 

And alcohol. Well, makes sense to me :)

 

[umsami]

I think there is more to it than just frequency illusion.

 

National Intelligence Director James Clapper testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee that "When the final accounting is done, 2014 will have been the most lethal year for global terrorism in the 45 years (since) such data has been compiled,"

 

As far as huddling in bunkers, well I'm in the south and there is Devils dandruff on the ground so we are all huddling with our tp and bread that we bought every grocery store out of.

 

The rise in numbers has everything to do with the Syrian Civil War of the past four years and the emergence of ISIS.  If you read his statement he seems to be attributing a lot to ISIS, and half of the incidents occur in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

 

While the 45 years statement sounds alarming, if you look at the numbers.  He says in 2013, 11,500 terrorist attacks killed 22,000 people.  In the first 9 months of 2014, 13,000 attacks have killed 31,000 people.  If they attribute every death caused by ISIS that happens in the Syrian Civil War as a terrorist attack, I'm not sure if that's really an honest accounting.  It's a war.  A messy, bad war...but a war.  When ISIS was not the dominant opposition, did they view deaths caused by other Syrian militia groups as terrorism? I'm betting not.   Because we always use "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in our foreign policy.  That's why Reagan supported the mujahideen/Taliban...because they were fighting the Soviets.  That's why we supported Saddam, because he was fighting Iran.  Up until ISIS emerged, we actually were on the side of the Syrian rebels because we didn't like Assad. 

 

Absolutely, ISIS is a terrorist organization and they are terrorizing the Syrian and Iraqi people.  But I just seems like he's trying to frame it that there was this big uptick in violence and terrorism, when for the past four years, the Syrians have been dealing with  terrorism and violence done by Assad's forces and other rebel forces.  It's war.

Do we count the drone attacks we inflict on other sovereign nations we are not at war with as terrorism? I doubt it.  Even though we kill numerous innocent men, women, and children.  We seem to be particularly good at targeting weddings.  

 

 

[umsami]

Or eggs.

 

The three staples in Atlanta when it snows are milk, eggs, and bread.  Apparently we are all supposed to make french toast.

 

In FL, I'm always amazed how people go out and buy every battery, flash light, bottled water, milk, eggs, canned goods, etc.   It would be more understandable if it was tourists and snowbirds buying all of the batteries and flash lights...but for people who live here, don't you have them from the last big hurricane scare? These seem to happen at least once per year.  I wonder if people just have 20 or 30 flashlights in their garage, if they buy four new ones with every scare.  

[Tanaqui]

for the past four years, the Syrians have been dealing with  terrorism and violence done by Assad's forces and other rebel forces

 

For longer than four years, they've been dealing with terrorism and violence done by the "legitimate" government. People don't enter a massive civil war for the lulz. I'm reminded of Mark Twain's comment on the French Revolution:

 

THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,†if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors†of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.

[mommymilkies]

 

I don't take it out on the general Muslims. I even go to a Muslim doctor.....

Hey, I have black friends.

 

We don't have a history of Christian terrorism in the way you guys do ( I think one anti-abortionist shot and killed a clinic security guard in 2001). However, we do have a precedent of being affected by offshore Islamist terrorism (Bali bombings) and multiple foiled onshore plots in the last decade.

 

It's good for the OP to understand the American context. But it really isn't the same as ours.

 

I wish I could find an article I read recently over why we shouldn't fear and ban an Islamist organisation that is based in Sydney. It had some convincing arguments and the OP might find it interesting.

 

But she was referring to Sharia Law in the USA and Europe. 

I refuse to apologize for joking. Her post is pot stirring, and I believe she knows it. It's a pattern here with several posters. If she's truly worried, the WTM chat board is not the place to ease her fears of crazy aholes using religion to terrorize people in her country. Hell, we've got towns here in the US wasting time and tax money to have a vote to outlaw Sharia law! The stupid is deep. We've got Christians trying to remove evolution and AP classes from schools! Weve got major media outlets cr@pping their pants because the president dared to mention that Christians have committed atrocities too in our modern( and in the past)world. I get it, they may not be killing us, but their religious intent can be just as damaging overall. So when SWB allows us to talk politics, and when she doesn't disallow threads about how assinine some of our Christian leaders and followers are, then perhaps JS and others need to find a different outlet to discuss it. But she already knows this, as do most everyone else.

 

:iagree:

No one is arguing that Islamist views and actions of certain groups should not be a global concern.

 

What isn't a realistic concern is that citizens of the US/Britain/Australia/the west in general will be falling under Sharia law.

:iagree:   Which is what the OP was about to begin with, at least. 

 

As for whether I'm concerned-nope.  Not concerned with Sharia Law here in the slightest.  A smaller concern over a nutjob shouting in the streets harassing people?  He's hardly the first or last of any race or religion to do so.  Annoying, yes.  If he crosses the line to the illegal that's for the local authorities.  We have people like that even in Podunk, USA.  

[kiana]

No one is arguing that Islamist views and actions of certain groups should not be a global concern.

 

What isn't a realistic concern is that citizens of the US/Britain/Australia/the west in general will be falling under Sharia law.

 

Yes.

 

The radicalization of Islam terrifies me. The fact that they are recruiting disaffected young men in the west also scares me and I would not be surprised to see terrorist cells sprouting up closer to home. 

 

But laws being passed in the US? I just don't see it happening.

 

I will, of course, continue to sign petitions and be politically active against religious laws (from any religion) being passed in the US to help ensure that that won't happen. 

[Lady Florida.]

In FL, I'm always amazed how people go out and buy every battery, flash light, bottled water, milk, eggs, canned goods, etc.   It would be more understandable if it was tourists and snowbirds buying all of the batteries and flash lights...but for people who live here, don't you have them from the last big hurricane scare? These seem to happen at least once per year.  I wonder if people just have 20 or 30 flashlights in their garage, if they buy four new ones with every scare.  

 

Don't forget bottled water. Now it's true that clean water is an issue when we're hit by a hurricane, and you probably did drink the water you bought last hurricane season, but it's always amusing to me to see how quickly those shelves become empty. The first thing I do is fill containers I already own*, before running out to buy more. 

 

I promise I don't fill the bathtub. I remember in the 70's and 80's they used to say "Fill up your bathtub!" Nowadays it' how you can tell newbies who haven't lived here long. They ask about filling up the tub. I don't know anyone who has actually ever done that. Of course now that I said that, someone who lives here will probably jump in and say they fill theirs. :D

[.Michelle.]

You fill the bathtub (and washing machine) in order to have water for hygiene and for flushing toilets.  Bottled water is for consumption. :)

[Lady Florida.]

You fill the bathtub (and washing machine) in order to have water for hygiene and for flushing toilets.  Bottled water is for consumption. :)

 

I know, but I've been here in Florida for 46 years and still never met anyone in person who actually did that. :)

[Catwoman]

If there is a radical 'christian' group causing bloodshed, and demanding everyone to convert to their brand of Christianity. ... I would be outraged, and having it as a thread, as well.

 

As far as I can tell, there isn't a 'christian' group plotting terror at this time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Has it happened in the past? Sure. But I'm looking at the present now, and what the future holds for my children.

:-(

 

I get that not all Muslims support this. And I'm not trying to pot stir. I'm just wary that these extremists will get their way if people just sit back and say it won't happen etc...

FWIW, Jasperstone, I didn't think you were pot-stirring, nor do I think you should have been ridiculed for having started this thread. :)

[umsami]

Don't forget bottled water. Now it's true that clean water is an issue when we're hit by a hurricane, and you probably did drink the water you bought last hurricane season, but it's always amusing to me to see how quickly those shelves become empty. The first thing I do is fill containers I already own*, before running out to buy more. 

 

I promise I don't fill the bathtub. I remember in the 70's and 80's they used to say "Fill up your bathtub!" Nowadays it' how you can tell newbies who haven't lived here long. They ask about filling up the tub. I don't know anyone who has actually ever done that. Of course now that I said that, someone who lives here will probably jump in and say they fill theirs. :D

 

Oh God yes, the bottled water. I'm always amazed that at my Publix and Sam's Club, it's the tiny bottles that go first, not the big gallons.  What are you people thinking?

 

I actually have this thing for filing the bath tub, but we've never used it.  :)    We're in South Florida now, so I take them more seriously.  Back when I lived in Central Fl and JAX...it was kind of like...meh....odds are we're safe.

[Petrichor]

I'm a little late to the party :p

 

As a muslim, I'm more concerned with the government taking away my right to practice my religion - to wear hijab for instance - than I am concerned with "radical islamists" 

 

sidenote: what weird language we have for naming people. 

 

And I am concerned about these youth who see it their responsibility to fight to try to bring islamic law to america, europe, or the middle east. That kind of behavior has more of an affect on me than it does (or even poses threat) for my non-muslim neighbors.

 

My belief, as is the belief of the vast majority of muslims, is that there is not one country who practices sharia law in the entire world, and as such, we can't look as those countries as an example of it. All of them have corrupt leaders and governments, at least in some aspects(usually in most or all aspects, really).

 

Sharia law is something that can only be understood when looking at the qur'an and the history of the first generation of muslims. The form of government that these tyrannical youth want is NOT that government. 

 

So to respond to something someone said upthread, when (law abiding) muslims establish courts based on shariah law in the west, or when they say they follow sharia law, they are saying that they want to be able to have a method to resolve civil matters between muslims. The example of the "court" in texas was a voluntary court intended to solve things like business law, and family law. 

 

Muslims have a set of rules in our religion. By our own laws, we have no desire or authority to impose those laws on non-muslims. Just like we have rules about how we pray and what we eat and how we dress, we have laws about how we conduct business and how we divide inheritance. These "courts" provide us with a way to settle disputes within the muslim community. Not for a way to oppress our non-muslim neighbors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[.Michelle.]

I know, but I've been here in Florida for 46 years and still never met anyone in person who actually did that. :)

 

:D  We always did.  And there were a couple of times that we actually used it!

[Laura Corin]

:D  We always did.  And there were a couple of times that we actually used it!

 

I fill the bathtub if there's a likelihood of losing power - our water supply depends on local electricity.

[albeto.]

That post is quite patronizing.......

 

I don't agree, and it isn't my intent. I meant what I said about your fear. Others have picked up on it, so I can only assume it's not just me irrationally projecting something onto you. Your words convey this fear, your threads are often couched in this fear (your recent threads seem to focus on Muslim terrorism and medical kidnapping). Your links, the sources you refer to for information are known propagandist, fear-inciting sources. I think these things all contribute to a constant, consistent worry. I grew up in a family of worriers. I am a worrier. I know the toll it takes on a person, and so my sympathies are genuine and offered with compassion. I wish you to be free from this. Truly. 

 

If you think it's patronizing because I don't validate your fear and therefor my words come across as mean, then I would suggest you consider a JAWM thread, or better yet, take this kind of conversation to a community where people will likely support your feelings rather than focus on the information and logical argument. If the thread is meant to exchange information and ideas, then subjective feelings ought to be secondary to this goal. 

 

If you can suggest a point I make, a specific argument I offer that reflects a patronizing element, then we can discuss the details of that argument and you can show me what is patronizing about it. Please be specific, though. Please quote actual words I use and refrain from referring to a "general tone." Discussions of general tone is not helpful in the context of exchanging information, or the opinions later based on that information. It's helpful in the context of one's emotional comfort, but that is not a variable relevant to the question you pose in your OP, it's not a variable I can accommodate everyone, and it's not a variable I'm interested in focusing on. This isn't a personal statement directed at you, Jasper, but a general one I apply across the board here. For that reason, I work hard to convey an emotionally neutral tone when I contribute my comments. I'm not always successful, and so I do welcome your feedback, if you can be specific.

 

If you think it's patronizing because I refer to your religion in the same vein as the Islamic religion, then this suggests a bias on your part that I cannot, and am not interested in validating, promoting, or supporting, even a little. I think it's a rather detrimental bias, and since you're asking for my opinion (by placing this in a public forum with such a purpose), then I feel perfectly justified in offering my opinion, and I feel supporting it with facts is much more helpful in general than posting as a drive-by comment.

 

If you think it's patronizing to refer to religious beliefs as magical thinking, I can only remind you that while it's not supportive of one's religious beliefs, it is nevertheless an accurate definition. 

 

 

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/28/voluntary-sharia-tribunal-in-texas-this-is-how-it-starts/

 

 

I can see it creeping in if people keep thinking it can't happen.

 

I don't know if the link above is a reliable source or not, but lately I've had lots of these types of emails sent to me.

 

It would help to recognize the difference between fact and opinion and how opinions are supported by facts or more opinions. It would be helpful to recognize propaganda and blatant bias in sources that seek to share information. It would be helpful to recognize the emotional manipulation tools used to secure repeat customers. If you cannot do these things, I'm afraid you will forever be at the mercy of the one pulling the emotional strings. That's neither a "good" or "bad" thing, it just is.

 

However, this does leave one more vulnerable to manipulation, and being taken advantage of. I want for you to be empowered enough to be in control of your life, including your emotions, and part of empowerment is knowledge. Knowing the difference between knowledge and fear-mongering is a primary step. This isn't directed at you personally, I wish this empowerment for everyone, and I wish the same ability to discern being informed as opposed to being played.

 

Fear is a primal emotion. We react to it whether or not we are aware of it. But humans are also capable of rational thought, and that includes emotionally detached, objective critical analysis. This link (and others like it) fail the "information" test when applying emotionally detached, objective critical analysis. We can pick apart a story of your choosing if you'd like. "We" meaning the forum. There are some amazingly clever educators here who can find illogical needles in a haystack.

 

 

If there is a radical 'christian' group causing bloodshed, and demanding everyone to convert to their brand of Christianity. ... I would be outraged, and having it as a thread, as well.

 

As far as I can tell, there isn't a 'christian' group plotting terror at this time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Has it happened in the past? Sure. But I'm looking at the present now, and what the future holds for my children.

:-(

 

I get that not all Muslims support this. And I'm not trying to pot stir. I'm just wary that these extremists will get their way if people just sit back and say it won't happen etc...

 

Conversion by compulsion was a Christian practice popularized and rationalized by Augustus, and utilized formally and informally for some sixteen centuries, even in your own country. Your own government sanctified conversion by compulsion under its policy of removing indigenous children from their homes to raise them to embrace European culture, including the Christian religion. These Stolen Generations have been mentioned before in reply to your concerns, suggesting an inability or unwillingness to accept evidence contrary to that which supports your opinion (thus the appearance of bigotry in the pattern of behavior with regard to these threads). Tens of Thousands of Muslims are fleeing Christian groups due to imminent danger for the "crime" of refusing to honor the appropriate god. I don't know about Australia, but in the US, we have quite a few hate groups that consistently incite fear, and consequently anger, for such demographic bad luck as being one of "them" when the "us" has greater weapons (including media and legislation). 

 

As far as looking only at the present now, I would argue that's not good enough. Five hundred years ago, the "present" saw the church burn alive, imprison, and exile non-christians (or the "wrong" Christians), under the authority and with full support of the holy ghost. This was done as public policy, and even served as public entertainment in some measure. It was perfectly acceptable to the Christian society at large. If some modern day Christians have their way, the same would happen next year at this time. There's nothing that will have changed but the public acceptance of such horrific violence. Most adherents to the Abrahamic religions have learned to distance themselves from the commands and ancient moral codes of their holy books, and we can all work together to support that in part by not villainizing Muslims by virtue of the potential fear they represent for the same reason you enjoy that privilege yourself. 

 

Ultimately, nothing has changed but the public acceptance of such horrific violence in response to blasphemy. In any case, the socially appropriate reaction to blasphemy is determined by the ever changing court of public opinion. The real problem, in my opinion, is the idea that blasphemy is a thing. It amounts to a "crime" of failing to sufficiently honor a particular god, according to those who hold power and enough charisma to sway public opinion. Because public opinion changes with information and knowledge, it behooves us to encourage learning and education, and that includes recognizing bias and emotional manipulation.  

 

Finally, I think worrying about radical Islam is a distraction, and ultimately an appeal to inspire fear for the sake of supporting the fear-mongers. They are the ones who gain the most from encouraging more people to clench their fists with them. This is the power of charisma. This is the power of emotional manipulation. This is the power of using fear as a motivator.  This is not unique to Islam (as history plainly shows), and is a problem no matter the god whose honor is rationalizing the aggression. I think the real enemy here isn't Islam, it isn't radical religion, it isn't even religion. The real problem is a general reliance on superstition, tribalism, fear, and magical thinking to explain and respond to life in general. 

 

[Tanaqui]

Since we're talking about religiously motivated violence against Muslims, let me point out also that Buddhist terrorism against Muslims is a thing. People will always find a way to project their issues onto the 'other', and often that results in violence.

 

Going back up-thread, and now this is off-topic again, I'm astonished that the "fill your tub" plastic thingy says it keeps the water clean for 16 weeks. Are you really going to spend four months without a fresh water source? Also, does your tub hold enough water for 16 weeks? Even if you have multiple bathrooms, that seems like an awful lot of water. At a gallon of water per person per day, 100 gallons should last a family of four slightly less than four weeks.

[albeto.]

This is the stage I'm at.  I wish it could be discussed rationally on this forum as educating the next generation is what we do.  The more all of this terrorism is happening - not just Sharia, but eco-terrorism, fame terrorism (where someone shoots up however many they can and plans on dying afterward), and more the more we NEED to figure out why it appeals to some and see if something can be adjusted in our education system - regardless of where that education happens (hs, ps, etc).

 

It seems to be inherent to human behavior. Cooperation vs. taking the advantage is intrinsic behavior we all have naturally, but which side of the spectrum we fall on, or even which side of the spectrum we fall on in any given choice, can vary. It makes for a very complex equation to try and work out. As social creatures, we naturally gravitate towards cooperation, but we also naturally defer cooperation to our kin first. This explains tribalistic thinking, one of many cognitive biases that our brains are wired for at birth. You might think of it as natural bloatware for brains. 

 

The antidote, in my opinion, is education, information, support of higher critical thinking skills. All the values illuminated and valued in Enlightenment thinking - rational thinking, deffer to reason not authority, pay attention to the details, etc. I agree with you that a conversation like this ought to find a home on a home educators' forum. It seems only natural, and yet this darned bloatware gets in the way, doesn't it? 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Guys, I still think you are way off track here.

 

What JS posted is an example of the kind of preaching young men ( and women) in AU and the UK are radicalised by.

 

It doesn't matter if they have the wrong end of the stick. It's turning them from their role as citizen in a democracy, to fighters for a terrorist organisation.

 

Are the numbers small ? Yes. I think around 150 from AU at last count.

 

Is the return of 150 radicalised and trained jihadis a concern over here ? Yes, it is. 

 

Radicalisation is viral, and we don't understand it.  There are people preaching this stuff to our young men and women - kids who are not in refugee camps, kids who do have the chance to go to university and reap other benefits of living in a stable democracy. Sydney is not Paris.

 

Historically, we have NOT seen our young men and women being radicalised in other faith traditions.

 

I think some of you are extremely US-centric in your approach to the OP and your mocking of her thoughts, ideas and fears. You do not understand the context she is operating in - which isn't one of coming Sharia, and is multi-faceted, with fault in the polity and the general community as well as in the Muslim community, is rife with misunderstandings both ways - but still is DIFFERENT.

 

Unless you understand the forces acting on someone, you really don't know why they might feel or think the way they do, even if their thoughts are baseless.

 

Ya know, I agree with most of you - at least mostly, though Hornblower said word for word my own position - but even I am finding the tone ugly and condescending ( although not, notably, from Umsami, who is as ever, gracious :))

 

I wonder if the response being US-centric has anything to with America being in the thread title?

 

[Katy]

Can the OP please change the thread title from shari to sharia?  It's driving me crazy.

 

I think it's scary that ISIS/ISIL/DASH's goal is to bring about Armageddon. I've heard even Al Quiada thinks they are nutty.  But except for family in the military and that creepy guy with the workplace violence situation here several months back I don't think it will effect my family very much.

 

I have faith that things will unfold the way they are supposed to.  Besides, ISIS/ISIL/DASH's members believe if they are killed by women they will go straight to hell.  That battalian of Kurdish women frequently have them running for their lives.  If they take over too much land I'm confident the threat of some female fighter pilots dropping bombs on them will calm them down a bit.

 

And I'm not particularly liberal or anti-colonial or much of a history buff, and I will always be on the side of Israel due to my faith, but I understand enough about history to know those areas were given a raw deal after WWI.  I don't think we explore that angle much in American news, and how they are trying to correct that.

[Katy]

Don't forget bottled water. Now it's true that clean water is an issue when we're hit by a hurricane, and you probably did drink the water you bought last hurricane season, but it's always amusing to me to see how quickly those shelves become empty. The first thing I do is fill containers I already own*, before running out to buy more. 

 

I promise I don't fill the bathtub. I remember in the 70's and 80's they used to say "Fill up your bathtub!" Nowadays it' how you can tell newbies who haven't lived here long. They ask about filling up the tub. I don't know anyone who has actually ever done that. Of course now that I said that, someone who lives here will probably jump in and say they fill theirs. :D

 

 

I haven't spent much time as a Florida resident as an adult, but I grew up there and we always filled the bathtubs before hurricanes.  We lived just beyond the edge of town though, and had a pumphouse with an electric pump in it rather than city water. When the power went out, we lost water unless we wanted to trek through the storm to an old manual pump my great grandparents put in.  The manual pump was so old you had to prime it by pouring in a huge glass cider jug full of water first, then pump it five times to get out the water you just poured in.  Having water in the bathtub to flush toilets seemed much easier to deal with than all of that.   I think now that area has been incorporated and has city water.

[creekland]

Maybe? Except that, as mentioned upthread, the actual level of violence - including terrorism - in the world is declining.

 

I think we just hear about it more, creating a frequency illusion. It's like this. If you see one news report on a kidnapped child, you think it's one kidnapped child. If you see 100 news reports on the same child in a week, you consciously know it's just one child, but, all the same, your brain files it as "hundreds of reports! hundreds of kids! omg kidnapping is all over the place!" Your brain can be very annoying. Add that to the "if it bleeds, it leads" philosophy of the media and it's amazing we aren't all huddled in our bunkers right now.

 

You are counting far more than I am.  There have always been school shootings (or other deaths) in modern history, but there are far more now than there were in my youth.  It's not just reporting.  I saw a list of all of them at one point not all that long ago.  And I'm not talking about a single shooting that happened to occur at a school (vs elsewhere).  I'm talking about intentional deals.

 

And it's spreading even WITH far more security measures having been enacted.

 

Wars have always happened and likely always will, including terrorism from "terrorist-type" wars.  But now we are seeing recruitment of more educated westerners rather than undereducated, etc.

 

It's not really overall numbers that concern me.  Earth has never really been at peace.  It's the subtle change that is going on.

 

The antidote, in my opinion, is education, information, support of higher critical thinking skills. All the values illuminated and valued in Enlightenment thinking - rational thinking, deffer to reason not authority, pay attention to the details, etc. I agree with you that a conversation like this ought to find a home on a home educators' forum. It seems only natural, and yet this darned bloatware gets in the way, doesn't it? 

 

With many of the later recruits having been educated - even including college for some - merely offering what is current in education, information, and higher thinking skills is not working.  This is my concern.  It's like it's becoming fashionable to join Darth Vader - a teen/early twenties rebellion of sorts, but far deadlier than using illegal drugs or partying.

 

Fortunately, it is still a small movement (in western countries), but it's a small movement that could have major consequences if it continues.

 

Then looking a little more deeply into it... will the school shooters (still usually those with mental or bullying issues) start copycatting other methods?

 

There are many facets that could be pondered.

 

(Sharia Law becoming legal in western countries isn't really one of them, but the attitude in wanting it and being willing to kill for it could be.)

 

Guys, I still think you are way off track here.

 

What JS posted is an example of the kind of preaching young men ( and women) in AU and the UK are radicalised by.

 

It doesn't matter if they have the wrong end of the stick. It's turning them from their role as citizen in a democracy, to fighters for a terrorist organisation.

 

Are the numbers small ? Yes. I think around 150 from AU at last count.

 

Is the return of 150 radicalised and trained jihadis a concern over here ? Yes, it is. 

 

Radicalisation is viral, and we don't understand it.  There are people preaching this stuff to our young men and women - kids who are not in refugee camps, kids who do have the chance to go to university and reap other benefits of living in a stable democracy. 

 

 

:iagree:

[albeto.]

And just because albeto is on this thread, I'll post this response which includes a "No True Scotsman" fallacy argument. :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/calling-isis-unislamic-is_b_6730702.html

 

I haven't read The Atlantic article, but have seen it mentioned. I'll keep a look out of what you say about it when/if I do read it.

 

With regard to the blog you linked (in the quote box), not surprisingly, this isn't helpful. He's simply moving the goalposts to fit his agenda. 

 

I got this far then stopped (mostly for time, but I think his point is well articulated here):

 

 

The question is not, therefore, what a true or untrue Muslim would do. The question is do the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Hadith--in that order--substantiate such acts? In other words, can Islamic teachings substantiate such acts? If so, then surely Islam is not the peaceful faith I profess it is. If not, then the acts of such Muslims can be dismissed as their delusional acts--not Islam's teaching. If an act is not something taught or approved by Islam, but rather condemned by Islam, then it is perfectly factual and accurate to call that act un-Islamic.

 

For the sake of argument, I'll change the words a bit in hopes of illustrating why I find this defense to be lacking.

 

 

The question is not, therefore, what a true or untrue Christian would do. The question is do the bible, body of Christ, and holy spirit --in that order--substantiate such acts? In other words, can Catholic teachings substantiate such acts?If so, then surely Christianity is not the peaceful faith I profess it is. If not, then the acts of such Catholics can be dismissed as their delusional acts--not Christ's teaching. If an act is not something taught or approved by Christianity, but rather condemned by Christianity, then it is perfectly factual and accurate to call that act un-Christian.

 

When an identity is created by virtue of subjective standards evolving throughout the ages and influenced by various cultures, drawing boundaries simply cannot be accepted based on the claim, "I know so," or "trust me," which is all this op ed piece is offering. The first red flag here is his source for credibility - holy texts of a religion. These texts can be, and are, subjectively interpreted. There exists no objective source to point to a thing that lacks objective evidence, a thing that requires faith to accept as real and true (the mind and will of your god). To claim that those who don't interpret these texts in such a way that fits his personal approval aren't "Real Muslims" is to apply the NTS fallacy, even if he says he's not. It's much easier to see when you're not invested in a particular argument, which is why I thought maybe changing the words would help. We can show this with regard to "Real Americans" or "Real Feminists" or "Real Homeschoolers."

[*Lulu*]

Sadie, my answer was American-centric because the OP/title suggested that was what we were discussing.

 

I think radicalization is a very serious issue in the global arena.

 

I just don't think America is in even a sliver of danger of becoming ruled by Sharia law. The religious danger here in the US is from the political arm of über-conservative evangelical Christianity.

 

History is full of radicals. Men, and the occasional powerful enough woman, who set sights on some point of power (usually political and almost always has a monetary component) and then justifies the course of action to achieve this objective as religiously mandated.

 

Sometimes they lose and history calls them tyrants or extremists.

 

Sometimes they win and history calls them revolutionaries or heroes.

[albeto.]

With many of the later recruits having been educated - even including college for some - merely offering what is current in education, information, and higher thinking skills is not working.  This is my concern.  It's like it's becoming fashionable to join Darth Vader - a teen/early twenties rebellion of sorts, but far deadlier than using illegal drugs or partying.

 

We'll never eradicate irrational behavior simply because we've evolved with it. Fortunately, we've also evolved to recognize it, but not always. So the challenge remains. And it always will. I don't think a lack of 100% success ought to deter us from continuing an otherwise generally effective solution. Like you say however, there are many other variables at play. Only time will tell which ones are the most influential, and how to respond accordingly. 

[Tanaqui]

But now ? The left doesn't have an answer that seems capable of taking into account the attraction those young people who have grown up here, who are privileged, have for a fascist, nihilistic movement. This is hardly their Spanish Civil War.

 

Do those young people feel privileged? You know, I read a very interesting (if somewhat superficial) article on this subject just the other day. People don't join radical movements - of any stripe! - because they're living sheltered, comfortable lives.

 

I don't think the answer to "why is this happening?" is really that hard to see. Is it true that there's an awful lot of racism and Islamophobia in the West? Yes. Is it true that you can be privileged in one area (say, wealth) and lack privilege in another (due to your religion or the color of your skin or your immigrant status)? Yes. Is it possible for people who seem to have everything on the outside to actually be suffering quite a lot due to both internal and external factors? Every flipping year in high school we had to read Richard Cory, sometimes twice a year, so I'm going to say yes again.

 

People who feel isolated from one group often cope by joining another group that accepts them. Don't like your conventional life filled with racists? Join like-minded souls! It doesn't help that the conditions that ISIS sprung from were caused in no small part by Western intervention and greed. So you have disaffected youths who experience prejudice in the West (no matter how privileged they might seem), to cope they join a group of other disaffected youths similar to them, some of them end up in a group more radical than others, and while they're busy being disaffected they talk a lot about how the same people who oppress them here oppress their families or co-religionists or whatnot (whom they imagine themselves to have so much more in common with) over THERE, and since they're already in a little radical echo chamber they just get further and further disaffected until suddenly they're sneaking in from Turkey.

 

Of course, all the media about this probably exacerbates the situation.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I give up.

 

Continue.

 

At least you've all given me more insight into how not to engage  next time I am convinced I am 100% right, a lesson I could well do with learning.

 

 

(There is a rich vein of anti-Americanism that our home grown jihadis are tapping into and feeling encouraged by - the idea of America falling is a powerful one to many young people...you think Australian jihadis are only influenced by what is possible at home ? They are thriving in our historic petri dish of resentment of American imperialism ).  

 

Interesting.  I thought you were demonstrating that yourself throughout this thread.

 

When a thread title relates to the US and Europe, it shouldn't be a surprise when answers relate to the US and Europe.  Although to be fair I specifically included Australia in one of my replies.

[Negin]

I thought The Atlantic article was interesting, yet it featured just one academic from Princeton portraying these things.  It did a great job scaring me and many others.  It did a great job drawing site traffic for The Atlantic.  

It also featured the Australian dude, the British guys, etc. It was quite balanced, I thought. You mentioned that it did a great job scaring you. The topic is scary whether we like it or not. Most of the articles in The Atlantic do a fabulous job of drawing traffic to their site. That's the way they are - whether it's about vaccines or whatever. 

[Negin]

What isn't a realistic concern is that citizens of the US/Britain/Australia/the west in general will be falling under Sharia law.

Did I say that I was concerned? I'm sorry, but I honestly can't recall. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Did I say that I was concerned? I'm sorry, but I honestly can't recall. 

 

The OP said she was and that is the heart of this thread.

[umsami]

Well, they just demolished Nimrud :(  They are stealing world history from us all.

 

My heart sunk when I saw this over breakfast.  Echoes of the magnificent Buddha statues in Bamiyan. :(  :(

 

It makes me so angry.  How f-ing dare they.  How f-ing dare they destroy this magnificent ancient city?  How dare they.

You can't get that back, people.  Not ever.  I mean, this stuff predates Prophet Muhammad.  If it was so atrocious, don't you think he would have destroyed it?  Ugh.  I think of all the people that tried to save the treasures of Iraq during the last war, and now these lunatics come in and destroy it. 

 

I hate them.  

 

If their brand of Islam expands, imagine what could happen in Egypt?  What about Petra?  

 

As an FYI, this illustrates the differences between conservative Muslims and extreme Muslims.  Iranian Muslims after the Shah....yes, conservative.  Yes, chador required.  Yes....some religious rulings that I find questionable.   No...don't destroy Persepolis.    

 

Saudis....yes, conservative.  Yes, abaya required.  No...don't destroy ancient artifacts, instead send them on world tour to other museums.

 

Taliban...freakin' nuts.  Take oppression to new level.  Terrorize their own people and others.  Destroy Buddhas of Bamiyan.

 

Daesh/ISIS/ISIL....freakin' nuts.  Oppress and terrorize their own people and others.  Destroy ancient city of Nimrud.  

 

Numerous Muslim leaders have ruled over what is now Iraq since the 7th century.  Not one felt the need to destroy this city.  Not one.  B*($ards.  

[umsami]

It also featured the Australian dude, the British guys, etc. It was quite balanced, I thought. You mentioned that it did a great job scaring you. The topic is scary whether we like it or not. Most of the articles in The Atlantic do a fabulous job of drawing traffic to their site. That's the way they are - whether it's about vaccines or whatever. 

 

No, it only featured one academic/scholar on Islam, the guy, Bernard Heykel from Princeton.  The other were people who followed ISIS which I would not call experts on Islam.  In contrast, lettertobaghdadi features over 100 scholars and Imams from various madhabs (schools of thoughts), etc... who are well versed in Islamic law, etc.  IF he wanted to do US academics, I think including GW's Seyyed Hossain Nasr (who has been in academia for at least 25-30 years and is well respected in Muslim and non-Muslim circles) or Harvard's Islamic law prof. Intisar Rabb or somebody else.  I'm sure Columbia has some good people.  Duke has Dr. Omid Safi, etc.  Just somebody other than one guy. KWIM? I mean Heykel got his degree in 1998.  Nasr got his doctorate from Harvard in 1964.  Bit more experience, no?  They may have all agreed with him, I don't know....but it would have given his story more weight IMHO.

 

It was good in that it gives an insight into a few recruits, but I don't think he did a good job in making his case other than "I say so." 

 

I think US organizations like CAIR, ISNA, ICNA, etc. need to do a better job at counteracting terrorism.  I know the ex-president of ISNA who is head of the Dulles Area Muslims (DC-area) was at the recent summit at the White House.    There are some people who are doing their own thing, though.  While I haven't read of many US folks going off to join ISIS, it is a concern especially in the large Somali community in MN.  (Whose members have gone off with Boko Haram too.)  This guy is a normal cabdriver, and he started his own cartoon series.  I think that's pretty awesome.  http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-02-04/meet-average-mohamed-gas-station-owner-whos-using-cartoons-fight-isis-recruitment

 

This Canadian Imam/group is targeting reverts/converts to warn them of questionable practices because the recent tragedies in Canada have involved converts to Islam. http://www.nccm.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/UAT-HANDBOOK-WEB-VERSION-SEPT-27-2014.pdf

 

I think that at minimum, CAIR, needs to reproduce the Canadian pamphlet.  A better step would be to have a hotline/chatline for Muslim teens/youth to call, more active participants on Internet chat boards either to engage propagandists or to flag questionable content so it can be taken down.  Quite frankly, I wish Anonymous would go after ISIS's media accounts, too.

 

[umsami]

Oh, saw this and I was surprised to find out that in Lebanon, they're talking about Lebanese Christians joining ISIS.  (I also love how she cuts the guy off....and her hijab is really pretty IMHO.)  http://www.dailydot.com/politics/female-lebanese-host-cut-mic/?fb=ss&prtnr=salon&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[redsquirrel]

My heart sunk when I saw this over breakfast.  Echoes of the magnificent Buddha statues in Bamiyan. :(   :(

 

It makes me so angry.  How f-ing dare they.  How f-ing dare they destroy this magnificent ancient city?  How dare they.

You can't get that back, people.  Not ever.  I mean, this stuff predates Prophet Muhammad.  If it was so atrocious, don't you think he would have destroyed it?  Ugh.  I think of all the people that tried to save the treasures of Iraq during the last war, and now these lunatics come in and destroy it. 

 

I hate them.  

 

If their brand of Islam expands, imagine what could happen in Egypt?  What about Petra?  

 

As an FYI, this illustrates the differences between conservative Muslims and extreme Muslims.  Iranian Muslims after the Shah....yes, conservative.  Yes, chador required.  Yes....some religious rulings that I find questionable.   No...don't destroy Persepolis.    

 

Saudis....yes, conservative.  Yes, abaya required.  No...don't destroy ancient artifacts, instead send them on world tour to other museums.

 

Taliban...freakin' nuts.  Take oppression to new level.  Terrorize their own people and others.  Destroy Buddhas of Bamiyan.

 

Daesh/ISIS/ISIL....freakin' nuts.  Oppress and terrorize their own people and others.  Destroy ancient city of Nimrud.  

 

Numerous Muslim leaders have ruled over what is now Iraq since the 7th century.  Not one felt the need to destroy this city.  Not one.  B*($ards.  

 

If ever an ancient Assyrian God was going to rise up and wreak vengeance, now would be the time.  I am still hoping.

 

[umsami]

If ever an ancient Assyrian God was going to rise up and wreak vengeance, now would be the time.  I am still hoping.

 

 

That would be so freakin' awesome.  Can I put in a request for a Goddess, just because. :)  Wasn't Inanna/Ishtar the goddess of war too? She'd do!

[redsquirrel]

That would be so freakin' awesome.  Can I put in a request for a Goddess, just because. :)  Wasn't Inanna/Ishtar the goddess of war too? She'd do!

 

Ooooh, if Ishtar knew about this, she would kick their asses!  They would be in so. much. trouble.

 

You think Gozer the Gozrian in the form of Stay Puft  was bad? You ain't seen nothing like when Ishtar gets riled up. 

 

[Tsuga]

I used to think the old leftist reasons answered it all - imperialism, war mongering from the West etc, poverty etc. (And I still do think these play a part, in some conflicts, a major part).

 

But now ? The left doesn't have an answer that seems capable of taking into account the attraction those young people who have grown up here, who are privileged, have for a fascist, nihilistic movement. This is hardly their Spanish Civil War.

 

So true--but is there anything people would get up and fight for, far away? Now that you can see with your own eyes destruction? Who on the left is going to Afghanistan to stand up against the Taliban and the American troops? Who?

 

Can the Left even have a war nowadays?

 

This is a rhetorical question in the literal sense of that phrase. I'm interested in the discussion and don't have an answer.

 

Still, I do think the left has an answer, which is social exclusion and relative poverty. It turns out that people don't want comfort--they want what others don't have. They don't want things, they want control over things. Sitting on your ass in a Parisian ghetto until your next welfare check comes, while native Parisians go to the nice schools and get into les Grandes Ecoles, it seems, is not enough. There's your answer. Your Christian boys in the rural schools who realize they will never get into the nice schools, who imagine this is because all the black kids get a free pass? A welfare check handed to mama isn't going to shut them up.

 

Please note I am in no way suggesting that terrorism anywhere is justified. I'm just saying, there is an answer.

 

People want real power, real control over their lives, and a little bit is never enough. It has to be what they think others have. And this is where the circenses that we all have installed in our homes are coming back to bite us in the butt.

[Melissa in Australia]

I fill the bathtub if there's a likelihood of losing power - our water supply depends on local electricity.

so wish my neighbours did that.

 when the power goes out they cannot access their tank water. As we have set up gravity feed water they all come over with containers to get some water.

 

( our street and lots of outer rural Australia rely on tank water filled by rain collecting)

[MSNative]

Oh, saw this and I was surprised to find out that in Lebanon, they're talking about Lebanese Christians joining ISIS. (I also love how she cuts the guy off....and her hijab is really pretty IMHO.) http://www.dailydot.com/politics/female-lebanese-host-cut-mic/?fb=ss&prtnr=salon&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

I was cheering her! That guy was an absolute jerk and she was the bomb! And her hijab was gorgeous.

[Negin]

He went to fight for Isis even though the UK gov't had attempted to stop him leaving the country.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/british-jihadi-abu-rumaysah-in-syria-isis-after-arrest-passport-order/

 

He's also posted a defence of Jihadi John & says they're justified in beheading captives. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11449598/Anjem-Choudarys-prime-supporter-says-Jihadi-John-justified-in-beheading-captives.html

 

You can want anything you want but I get a little concerned at the steps you're willing to achieve those goals.

Thank you for these links. I agree that it is a problem, a growing one. 

 

Rumaysah and his Islamist confidants patrol the streets of East London, chastising British citizens for not complying with Islamic law. In a series of videos, they can be seen harassing women for inappropriate dress, rebuking men for drinking alcohol, and calling a man “dirty†on the suspicion that he is gay.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

How are they getting away with this?

Three things come to mind: political correctness, fear, & an increasing sense of apathy. 

 

I see such depressing polarization on this. Either you get total nutbars preaching ugliness against all Islam, or you get people minimizing everything and calling it just absurd or stirring the pot. Surely we can have a civilized conversation about radicalization? 

:iagree:

Nope, a normal conversation does not seem likely. I still remember a recent attempt at one. 

[justasque]

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/28/voluntary-sharia-tribunal-in-texas-this-is-how-it-starts/

 

 

I can see it creeping in if people keep thinking it can't happen.

 

I don't know if the link above is a reliable source or not, but lately I've had lots of these types of emails sent to me.

 

Jasperstone, I wonder if it would help with your worries if you were able to stop the emails.  Many of these kinds of emails are full of scary half-truths, and having to research each one to sort out the truth can be a lot of work and still leave you with lingering doubts.  

 

You can still keep up with the news by reading various legitimate news sources; there are many good ones from which to choose.  I realize that you may worry that you will miss something important, but the best way to keep informed is to find reliable sources that do the job of filtering for you, so you can spend your news-reading time more efficiently.

 

Are there people in your life who are sending you these emails?  Can you ask them not to?  Can you explain that they are causing you worry, and you need to take a break from them for a while?  If the people continue to send them, or if you don't want to discuss it with them, can you filter their emails to a folder and then open only those that appear from the subject line to be personal messages?

 

Are there emails that are coming from organizations?  Can you unsubscribe from them, or flag them as spam, so that you stop getting them?  Do you have a good spam filter already set up?

 

Cutting off the source of the worrying half-truths could lower your stress, reduce your worry, and give you more time to read high-quality information.

[Negin]

Bull.

Come on, Negin, weren't you even one of the ones who had posts removed because of becoming too personal?

Rude.

Chronologically incorrect. Attacks were directed at me first. I have every right to speak up and defend myself. 

Oh, and by the way, I never once got personal with anyone. That's not my style. I don't bully, attack, or get personal. 

Once again, rude. 

 

[*Lulu*]

lol, I got told off in both threads - the one where I was not buying Islam = death to all AND the one where I sympathise with someone worried about Islamism.

 

Not to mention the one where 99.9% of fellow liberals agreed that secular victims of said Islamists had 'asked for it'.

 

There's no winning in these discussions unless you toe one party line. If you want to NOT toe a party line, you're toast! Because everyone except your best forum friends will argue with you and withold their likes!

 

Luckily I like being argued with and my best forum friend keeps me like-supplied :)

I am not arguing with you that some past discussions have become very us vs them on both sides.

 

That happens with regularity around here. I've seen it in the Charlie Hebdo thread, the Starbucks-baby-changing thread, the gay wedding cakes thread, anything with Dugger in the title, and so on and so forth.

 

As someone who has become party-less in the past few years, I don't see it so much as some outside set of beliefs as individuals having strong opinions on multiple issues. I think the more politically charged or politically used an issue is the more likely party lines become.

[Negin]

But there was a huge Islam thread where you had posts removed, correct?? And I'm not being rude to you. It was posts between you and Umsami, i think. Several posts were edited or removed by SWB, it wasnt just yours. Emotions were running high and things definitely got more angry. It is not true that people are so polarized here about the subject, as Hornblower said, and you agreed with her. People have all agreed on the danger. Opinions differ on what to do to solve it. Opinions differ on if there's a chance the USA or Australia will be overtaken and Sharia law implemented( this thread). You sound pretty upset with me right now, without reason to. My point was that you and Hornblower were incorrect to think the discussion about radicalization becomes one of " here's why I'm worried" and "it's dumb to worry". There's so much more in between that from a lot of posters, usually the same posters saying basically the same things in every thread similar to this.

ETA-- I wasn't correct with Hornblowers remark. She actually said -- I see such depressing polarization on this. Either you get total nutbars preaching ugliness against all Islam, or you get people minimizing everything and calling it just absurd or stirring the pot. Surely we can have a civilized conversation about radicalization?

.... But my response is still the same. Those 2 things are not the only responses in discussions here. Sorry about the misquote, can't figure out how to do it yet on this phone.

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. I thought that you were being rude and am sorry to have misunderstood. Yes, I had posts removed, but again not for any personal attacks. I don't do personal attacks, unless if I'm unaware of them - regardless, that is never my intent. The posts that were removed were not, for the most part between Umsami and I. They were between someone else and me.

No, I'm not upset at you.

I disagree with you with regards to Hornblower and I being incorrect in thinking that this subject is a polarizing one. I think it is a polarizing topic - here and everywhere. Obviously, not all of the responses here are of those two types (nutbars and those who discount/minimize/jest about it all), but a great deal of them were. I have yet to see a civilized and courteous conversation about radicalization here. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I have to admit to feeling betrayed by fellow liberals over Charlie Hebdo. Absolutely betrayed. Like a dagger in the heart.

 

Idk. For me the question is, do we shut down 'discussions' because of our perception there is potential for harm ? That was how this thread started - close it quickly, lest it add to Islamophobia.  

 

I mean, we don't shut down conversation about 'the gays''. In fact, those threads go on for pages and pages, with people earnestly trying to educate, amongst the snark. ( I cop to being a snarker in those threads, not an educator...I'm rethinking the value of that ).

 

I don't recall 99% of the liberals in the Charlie Hedbo thread saying "they asked for it"...not even close.

[*Lulu*]

In that thread, in the wider liberal media - there was almost NO-ONE who self identified as liberal and progressive who stood up and defended CH unconditionally. Ironically,some of the strongest voices came from Muslim atheists and here. from a practicing Muslim.

 

99% is probably hyperbole. Unconditional defence of the murder victims was a minority view, however. Most liberal 'defence' ran along these lines - 'It is unacceptable they were murdered BUT...'

 

Well, the BUT was a big betrayal, imo.

I get that.

 

I don't know that there are pat or easy answers.

 

I just know we have to keep talking.

 

And trying to listen.

[butterflymommy]

Most of the "scary" stuff is happening in europe, not the US, so in that respect americans don't need to worry. But yes, there are indeed neighborhoods in european cities where gays and "improperly dressed" or "improperly accompanied" women are harassed and bullied or outright attacked. It's a sad state of affairs.

 

The closest americans have come to sharia law is that some courts will recognize the authority of religious courts in civil cases, usually cases involving divorce, domestic violence, women's issue stuff. You see this happen in orthodox (jewish) communities as well where beit din decisions are upheld in civil courts. Unfortunately it's usually women who suffer in these situations.

 

But for your average american it isn't an issue that will affect them. I do feel terrible for gays in the affected areas. Imagine the terror they feel.