DS wants to know: How does religious conversion work?

[MEmama]

In our history studies we are constantly reading about people who change religions for one reason or another (political shifts, trade, etc). Coming from a background of no religious faith, DS is curious how it can actually happen. It's one thing to adopt new religious practices, and quite another to actually change ones beliefs.

 

Respectful insight?

[Tess in the Burbs]

I think someone would hear about something that made them think more on it, research it, and come to the conclusion that their belief needs to change.  It's easy to grow up in a church, never questioning anything you are taught.  You suddenly read something or hear a discussion about theologies and you wonder...do I really know my faith?  And you read, read, read.  Pray, pray, pray.  And often this means a major change in your religious beliefs.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think that is how it works.  People change their beliefs.  Something convinces them that another way of thinking makes sense.  Or maybe they never thought hard about it at all and at some point started thinking about it and decided that it didn't quite make sense.  So they sought out more information and other views. 

 

Many people are "in" various religions simply because it is a family tradition.  They didn't choose it.  Maybe some never even thought about it ever.  And then at some point they do.

 

I grew up with one thing.  Never really thought too hard about it because hey my parents told me this or that.  I had nothing to compare it to.  Then I decided when I started thinking about it that it made no sense to me. 

[Laurie4b]

As others have said, thinking about something and pursuing knowledge about it can bring about a change in beliefs.

 

Sometimes an event happens that changes religious beliefs. It could be a mystical type of experience, or witnessing something miraculous. A tragic event can do the same--either drive someone away from a religious belief they've held, or motivate them more to seek a connection with God. Sometimes a change in community brings about a change in beliefs. This might relate to what others have said about exposure to new ideas, but it can also happen that a person is exposed to people whose way of life is attractive, and that causes the person to look into it further.

 

In most ways, religious beliefs change in the same way that other beliefs do.

[Kathryn]

In our history studies we are constantly reading about people who change religions for one reason or another (political shifts, trade, etc). Coming from a background of no religious faith, DS is curious how it can actually happen. It's one thing to adopt new religious practices, and quite another to actually change ones beliefs.

 

Respectful insight?

Interesting. I found the opposite to be true. I went from no belief to belief to changing belief. The first "jump" was a much bigger hurdle than the second one. As to how it happens, what others said. When one is truly seeking truth and knowledge, they sometimes realize that where they are currently is not quite where they're meant to be.

[umsami]

Yes to what some others have said, but often understand they are not gigantic leaps....say between many Abrahamic faiths or different denominations.

 

Also, sometimes it made sense to adopt the dominant religion, whether or not one really believed it.  So, after the Catholics took over Spain from the Muslims, there was very much a convert or die type philosophy towards Muslims and Jews.   People may love their faith, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're willing to die for it (nor should they IMHO).  

 

This happened in the States with Native Americans.  It happened after Constantine embraced Christianity.

 

Muslims used to impose a tax on non-Muslims. The good thing was that it got them out of serving in the army, and they didn't pay their zakat (2.5% of wealth).  The bad thing is it was a tax.  So converting made sense for some.  In certain parts of Ottoman territories, Christian boys were forced into army service, and converted into Islam.  I'm sure it's happened with Sunni and Shi'as throughout Muslim history.  Being of the dominant faith would open up certain jobs/career paths too. Even today in the States, some Muslims chose to "Americanize" their names.  They even put up Christmas trees and view it as more of a secular holiday.  Is it common? No...but it may become more common....a way to fit in, etc.  

 

Did the first generation believe the new faith? Maybe, maybe not.  But I'm sure subsequent generations may have.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I thought maybe I believed, but then didn't believe at all (for sure).  I was very young though so it's hard to describe that exactly.  It was not much of a leap at all.  Not like one would assume I don't think because maybe a lot of times there are doubts to begin with.  So it might not be like going from an absolute sense of believing one thing whole heartedly to believing something radically different whole heartedly. 

[Lady Florida.]

The change I made before going to no belief wasn't that drastic in my mind, but I suppose it was in the eyes of the Catholic Church. I went from Catholic to Methodist (then to atheist, but I don't know if that's the kind of thing you're asking about).

 

Even though I grew up being told that I was a member of the One True Churchâ„¢ in the back of my mind I knew I really subscribed to an "all paths are valid" belief. For various reasons, dh didn't want to be married in the Catholic church. Although he was raised Methodist he wasn't a church goer, but I was familiar with the big local Methodist church and had several friends who attended there. I already had some issues with the RCC, and I felt converting to Methodist wasn't really going too far from my Catholic roots (my Methodist friends used to joke that they were Catholic cousins, twice removed). I'm sure it would have been harder if my beliefs were more rigid.

 

 

[MEmama]

Yes to what some others have said, but often understand they are not gigantic leaps....say between many Abrahamic faiths or different denominations.

 

Also, sometimes it made sense to adopt the dominant religion, whether or not one really believed it. So, after the Catholics took over Spain from the Muslims, there was very much a convert or die type philosophy towards Muslims and Jews. People may love their faith, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're willing to die for it (nor should they IMHO).

 

This happened in the States with Native Americans. It happened after Constantine embraced Christianity.

 

Muslims used to impose a tax on non-Muslims. The good thing was that it got them out of serving in the army, and they didn't pay their zakat (2.5% of wealth). The bad thing is it was a tax. So converting made sense for some. In certain parts of Ottoman territories, Christian boys were forced into army service, and converted into Islam. I'm sure it's happened with Sunni and Shi'as throughout Muslim history. Being of the dominant faith would open up certain jobs/career paths too. Even today in the States, some Muslims chose to "Americanize" their names. They even put up Christmas trees and view it as more of a secular holiday. Is it common? No...but it may become more common....a way to fit in, etc.

 

Did the first generation believe the new faith? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm sure subsequent generations may have.

This is what he's thinking about. I can see it in situations where a population is forced to pretend as a result of a regime change. Then in extreme cases where that first generation isn't allowed to teach or pass on their true beliefs (or the option of other/no belief) to the next generation, the second and subsequent generations know no other way, assuming they have been kept in total isolation.

 

But does an outward appearance of faith equal true faith? I mean, I could pretend to be a Christian, but it wouldn't reflect my inner knowledge. So when we read that entire groups of people convert from one faith to the opposite faith (if you will--I'm not saying it well but I mean like from Christianity to Islam, given the thousands of years of not getting along), how can that really be? Unless it really is that the change happens incrementally but the books make it sound like they just liked the new way better.

 

Hard to wrap our atheist brains around.

[umsami]

This is what he's thinking about. I can see it in situations where a population is forced to pretend as a result of a regime change. Then in extreme cases where that first generation isn't allowed to teach or pass on their true beliefs (or the option of other/no belief) to the next generation, the second and subsequent generations know no other way, assuming they have been kept in total isolation.

 

But does an outward appearance of faith equal true faith? I mean, I could pretend to be a Christian, but it wouldn't reflect my inner knowledge. So when we read that entire groups of people convert from one faith to the opposite faith (if you will--I'm not saying it well but I mean like from Christianity to Islam, given the thousands of years of not getting along), how can that really be? Unless it really is that the change happens incrementally but the books make it sound like they just liked the new way better.

 

Hard to wrap our atheist brains around.

 

My guess is that the first generation probably stealthily practices their own faith.  Like, I grew up Christian.  I'm Muslim now.  When I pray my five daily prayers, they all have silent portions in them.  Some prayers, like the noon and afternoon, are completely silent....you're reciting to yourself.  So, while I'm supposed to be saying XYZ, I could easily say The Lord's Prayer or the Buddhist Metta prayer or whatever else I wanted.  Nobody would ever know, because it's in my head.  

 

My guess is that it's a gradual thing, regardless of what the books say.  There were probably families that secretly practiced their own faiths.  Some areas you'll see a merging of faith/traditions, and over time, people of the new dominant faith don't realize where the old traditions came from.  We see this a lot with Christian holidays.  The way Islam is practiced is different in different parts of the world.  Muslim saints are big in certain areas, but basically unheard of in others, etc.  It also may be that even though I am Jewish, I really really don't want my kids to be persecuted or face death for their beliefs. (Also, remember, these were usually nasty nasty deaths.)  So I may actually encourage them to learn their new faith, maybe even for my daughters to join a convent or my sons to be priests.    Still, if you come by for dinner, we may never have pork or shellfish. :)  And maybe my kids would grow up not eating it at home, but not really know why.  

 

Having said all that, I'm sure there were families that did embrace the new beliefs and families who were "true" converts as well.  

 

But yeah....when it's an entire country all of a sudden decides to become XYZ faith.... it's rather suspicious. 

[albeto.]

But does an outward appearance of faith equal true faith? I mean, I could pretend to be a Christian, but it wouldn't reflect my inner knowledge. So when we read that entire groups of people convert from one faith to the opposite faith (if you will--I'm not saying it well but I mean like from Christianity to Islam, given the thousands of years of not getting along), how can that really be? Unless it really is that the change happens incrementally but the books make it sound like they just liked the new way better.

 

So imagine you're pretending to be a Christian. Imagine your home, your husband's job (sorry, presuming here), your family's standing in society rests on whether or not you go to church every Sunday. You teach your kids the basics, you point out Jesus and the story of Noah and his Ark and other iconic stories when you bump into them. Your kids hear from you, from their friends, from society in general that these people really did exist. They trust you, they trust adults, they've got no reason not to assume a guy lived a long time ago and built a huge boat. Wow, that boat was really big, but then again, to a kid, an airplane is pretty fantastic. So is Santa and how he gets down the chimney everywhere around the world in one night. Doing the math as they get older is harder when the math is more vague. Jesus lives in your heart. Okay. That warm fuzzy feeling is the holy spirit. Huh, alright. When you die, you'll see all your friends, Grandpa, and the family dog again and everyone will be happy forever. Cool. They teach that to their kids, your grandchildren, who have no reason not to believe it. Good feelings are, and have always been associated with an invisible holy spirit that no one sees but everyone *knows* is there. Of course Grandpa is in heaven. Everyone knows that. So you don't question it. Why would you? You can feel those feelings, and they are real, right? And so the explanation fits the experience.

 

People are generally superstitious thinkers. We've evolved that way on purpose - it's an advantage when our bodies have dedicated most of its energy consumption to develop and support the brain rather than fast legs, climbing arms, strong jaws and teeth, or tough skin. We're pretty vulnerable animals when you think about it, but our brains have evolved to make up for it. And so thinking quickly is one thing we do. Assuming agency between two or more events is another thing we do naturally. We don't really turn this ancient, primal part of our brain off, we just rationalize it with what else we experience and know.

 

Here's an interesting article your son might enjoy reading about religious belief. I imagine the process of conversion wouldn't be hard to apply: Why do we believe in God

 

Knowing cognitive biases, like confirmation bias, will help explain why some reasons are accepted while others are dismissed (not just religion, but beliefs in general): 58 Cognitive Biases That Screw Up Everything We Do

 

[Tsuga]

In our history studies we are constantly reading about people who change religions for one reason or another (political shifts, trade, etc). Coming from a background of no religious faith, DS is curious how it can actually happen. It's one thing to adopt new religious practices, and quite another to actually change ones beliefs.

 

Respectful insight?

 

I have a long story about this. I converted as a teen. It  had nothing to do with logic, political shifts, etc. Though I was young I remember my train of thought and I think I made the decision without being coerced. It was informed.

 

Okay, my story. I moved to a new town. I was mildly but not clinically depressed. I had been depressed for some time for a variety of reasons. My new town was a small place and it was hard to fit in, but one person I had met invited me to youth group. I was 14 at the time. Had few friends. The people were so nice. The message was so nice. They were genuinely loving and charitable people who gave their all to the community. I had never known religion before and it was like living with the first Christians from my perspective. I'd been in materialistic Southern California for a few years and I hated that. This was like--look, people actually have REAL VALUES. True, my mom had values, but she was my MOM. I also liked the singing because there was no outlet for that since I wasn't in choir. I liked the fact that we could play sports and do social things non-competitively. I liked the charity aspect of it. After a year, I converted. I remember thinking, "They keep saying, if I believe, Jesus will cover me in love. The love of the God of the universe. All I have to do is believe... it all sounds so crazy but what if it's true? I want to believe. I want this to be real." And I did believe and it felt real. And I felt at that moment like the love of the universe was there.

 

Fast forward, I am no longer a Christian. Mainly because I have been able to connect with that source of love and life in the universe without believing that Jesus is the son of god, and in addition, there are some things in the Bible I came up against again and again, which contradicted my values.

 

Still, my conversion experience was an introduction to mysticism.

 

My experience with the Christian church itself was mainly in the pacific northwest and internationally with people working in slums. It was a very positive experience. I never felt like the weirdos on street corners represented my faith. I thought they were confused.

 

I have also worked in places where conversion was by force. I worked with two of the last groups to convert to Islam (they "converted" at gunpoint in the late 19th and early 20th centuries). Very interesting discussions there that made me wish I knew the native language more.  These were tribes of Asia that had converted about 4-5 generations ago. One group, the Yaghnobi, converted when the Russians came because they were dispersed, but maintained many of their traditions. They were very proud of having held out longer than the others but were also glad, they said, to have Islam. This was in the wake of the collapse of the USSR, though, and religion played a big role in mobilizing people against it. So there was that aspect. Also, it was politically incorrect to say you weren't religious. Still, they seemed to merge their own tradition with the monotheism on top. Some people would brag that Mohammed got half his ideas from Zarathustra. So that was an interesting conversation. These were people who in their daily lives would pray five times a day. They seemed to accept religion as a spiritual thing, legal but also open to interpretation.

 

The Nuristani were different in that in Afghanistan, it was common to find atheists who pretended to be Muslims. Many people were resentful of religion. In safe places the resentful made jokes about god and cursed god, the god who had abandoned their country. Some in villages (not only Nuristani) would do the same. "This is the god of women! Praise god! Allahu akbar, a woman is dead with her baby." screeched one woman after a woman had died in childbirth (the mullah would not allow a women's clinic). Afghanistan reminds me of the American south. Everyone asks about religion, they all drive to where they are supposed to go. It all looks so perfect and religious from the outside. But when you talk to people a lot of them think it's total crap. Some people are sincere but a lot of them just use religion to get ahead. I can't tell you how many people would pray all the extra Ramadan prayers and then I'd see them in the office, door locked, smoking and drinking. And then you have the "religious" people telling people to blow themselves up. Honestly? Afghanistan is one of the least religious places I've ever been. The kindest people would never swear against god or do anything rash, but they also weren't that religious, either. But that's war, not conversion. Still, their religion seemed very shallow.

 

Many educated people I met in Central Asia seemed to struggle to balance their irritation with Arab conquest and Arab culture, and the fact that they sincerely believed in one god and that Mohammed was his prophet.Many of them suggested that the Arabs had corrupted Mohammed's message and that their interpretation of the Qur'an was the true interpretation. Also some fascinating discussions there.

 

Ultimately I think conversion by gunpoint doesn't sink in until after two or three generations and even then not fully.

 

I also know people who have converted by marriage. Like I have one relative who joined the LDS church. Oh, actually I know more than a few men like this. It seems to work when it's the man converting. He can fill that role. I don't know any women who converted. Maybe they take it more seriously? Or love less seriously? Or it could be a coincidence.

 

So, those are my conversion stories.

[ScoutTN]

Perhaps some autobiographies of people who have made big spiritual changes would be helpful?

Augustine's Confessions is a classic.

 

I can't think of others right now, but maybe boardies from various faith traditions can add other good choices to get various perspectives?

[MEmama]

My guess is that the first generation probably stealthily practices their own faith. Like, I grew up Christian. I'm Muslim now. When I pray my five daily prayers, they all have silent portions in them. Some prayers, like the noon and afternoon, are completely silent....you're reciting to yourself. So, while I'm supposed to be saying XYZ, I could easily say The Lord's Prayer or the Buddhist Metta prayer or whatever else I wanted. Nobody would ever know, because it's in my head.

 

My guess is that it's a gradual thing, regardless of what the books say. There were probably families that secretly practiced their own faiths. Some areas you'll see a merging of faith/traditions, and over time, people of the new dominant faith don't realize where the old traditions came from. We see this a lot with Christian holidays. The way Islam is practiced is different in different parts of the world. Muslim saints are big in certain areas, but basically unheard of in others, etc. It also may be that even though I am Jewish, I really really don't want my kids to be persecuted or face death for their beliefs. (Also, remember, these were usually nasty nasty deaths.) So I may actually encourage them to learn their new faith, maybe even for my daughters to join a convent or my sons to be priests. Still, if you come by for dinner, we may never have pork or shellfish. :) And maybe my kids would grow up not eating it at home, but not really know why.

 

Having said all that, I'm sure there were families that did embrace the new beliefs and families who were "true" converts as well.

 

But yeah....when it's an entire country all of a sudden decides to become XYZ faith.... it's rather suspicious.

This sums up our thinking very well. Thank you.

[gardenmom5]

MEmama, on 17 Feb 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

In our history studies we are constantly reading about people who change religions for one reason or another (political shifts, trade, etc). Coming from a background of no religious faith, DS is curious how it can actually happen. It's one thing to adopt new religious practices, and quite another to actually change ones beliefs.

 

Respectful insight?

as one who did a religious conversion - it varies with the religion.  

 

first off, there is questioning what you have been (or have not been) taught previously.  what leads to that also varies.

 

you have to learn about the new one, and that means formal teaching and study.  sometimes, a convert knows more about the faith than someone who grew up with it.  also during this time, there is changing lifestyle to be more in harmony to the values and standards of the new religion which is being espoused.

[gardenmom5]

MEmama, on 17 Feb 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

 

 

But does an outward appearance of faith equal true faith? I mean, I could pretend to be a Christian, but it wouldn't reflect my inner knowledge. 

Not always.  some are reflecting what they really believe.  other's are only reflecting what the society around them dictates, but they do NOT believe.  I've known both types - and there is a difference, but it can be subtle.

[umsami]

I'd also add that for a great portion of history, the vast majority of people were illiterate.  So, does the country officially changing faiths really change their lives that much? Instead of paying indulgences or what not, they're paying some other tax.  Maybe it's less, maybe it's more.  Maybe the new rulers provide more things....like better sanitation, or medical care, or what not.  I may attribute that to the new faith, rather than the rulers.  Maybe as a woman, I can now legally divorce or my daughters can own property or get an education.  Maybe I no longer have to pay a dowry for my daughters or maybe I get the dowry?    Maybe nothing really changes.  Officially we're now Umsamism faith, but nothing changes on the local level.  Yes, the priestly class have a big change....but other than that, for the average Joe, it's not a big deal.  

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm going to give you a doctrinal answer according to my version of conservative, Protestant, Evangelical Christian beliefs based on my experience and my understanding of what the Bible says.  People come to faith in Jesus Christ when God, in the form of The Holy Spirit, gives them the faith and repentance to do so.  They did nothing on their own to be converted or to earn conversion but were given the ability to truly understand and change because God made it happen. This is a sharp distinction in knowing about God (intellectual knowledge) and true conversion (firsthand experience) of knowing God in a personal way. A change happens instantly but means the converted person is in a spiritually immature state of being and spiritual progress is slow like a child growing to adulthood as the change becomes more complete and mature.

 

This view is commonly referred to as Calvinism or 5 point Calvinism, but is a misnomer because not everyone holding this view of conversion/salvation agrees with Calvin on every other doctrinal issue he’s associated with. 

 

I don't know what other religions teach.

 

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Referring to your question regarding entire populations converting, I have a couple thoughts.

 

I was touring a Pueblo here in New Mexico, and the guide was telling stories of when the Catholics came and "converted" the Native people.  The people kept their Native beliefs and practices, but they practiced them in secret.  They would post watchmen who would stand outside openings (vents) in the kiva walls.  If a priest came by, they would give a signal to the people inside, and they'd start singing a hymn or reciting a Catholic prayer or something.  Then, when the priest was gone, they would continue with their Native ceremony.

 

Another thought I have is a memory of when Russia was liberated a couple decades ago.  Their Orthodox religious practices had been stifled for many decades.  They weren't allowed to practice Christianity while under the USSR rule.  Yet, when the Soviet Union was dissolved, the Orthodox picked right back up with their worship.  Priests were again presiding in their robes, and the people seemed to know exactly what to do.  Of course, I wasn't there, I just saw it on the news programs.  But, I was struck with the realization that, though they outwardly set aside their beliefs and practices, they obviously kept them in secret all along.

 

I believe that changing your true belief system is a very personal thing.  There is no way that any government regime can force an entire population to change their hearts.

[MEmama]

Thank you everyone for sharing your stories! This has been very helpful.

[MEmama]

Referring to your question regarding entire populations converting, I have a couple thoughts.

 

I was touring a Pueblo here in New Mexico, and the guide was telling stories of when the Catholics came and "converted" the Native people. The people kept their Native beliefs and practices, but they practiced them in secret. They would post watchmen who would stand outside openings (vents) in the kiva walls. If a priest came by, they would give a signal to the people inside, and they'd start singing a hymn or reciting a Catholic prayer or something. Then, when the priest was gone, they would continue with their Native ceremony.

 

Another thought I have is a memory of when Russia was liberated a couple decades ago. Their Orthodox religious practices had been stifled for many decades. They weren't allowed to practice Christianity while under the USSR rule. Yet, when the Soviet Union was dissolved, the Orthodox picked right back up with their worship. Priests were again presiding in their robes, and the people seemed to know exactly what to do. Of course, I wasn't there, I just saw it on the news programs. But, I was struck with the realization that, though they outwardly set aside their beliefs and practices, they obviously kept them in secret all along.

 

I believe that changing your true belief system is a very personal thing. There is no way that any government regime can force an entire population to change their hearts.

Excellent point re: the "old" practices starting right back up again. Fascinating. I wouldn't have thought about that example. Thank you.

[Pam in CT]

I think at the most fundamental level, there's a very wide gulf between conversion motivated by external coercion (whether that's physical coercion by conquering armies or an emperor/king who's decided the whole kingdom will follow a religious path he himself has chosen; or the substantially more benign case where a partner lays down a convert-or-else-I-won't-marry-you ultimatum and the other partner is -- more gently, but nonetheless-- coerced).... versus conversion that results from an inward change within the heart of the converting individual.

 

 

It sounds like what you and your son are discussing in regard to your historical studies is the former case, of externally coerced conversions?   When conversion is coerced (be it by the threat of violence, or even by the pull of love for another person), the outward physical acts associated with the newly adopted religion will happen sooner; real inward re-orientation takes much longer (or may not really happen at all... if your son is interested in this issue, you might point him towards the post-Inquisition conversos history).  

 

 

When conversion arises from an inward change within the heart of the individual, well... in that case, the re-orientation of beliefs has already happened.  It's the same process of evolving beliefs as happens in any other domain (deciding to recycle, to incorporate more organic food, moving toward or away from cloth diapers, whatever).  Many people's beliefs on any number of subjects evolve over time; matters of religion are no different than any other.

[Amy in NH]

I'm going to give you a doctrinal answer according to my version of conservative, Protestant, Evangelical Christian beliefs based on my experience and my understanding of what the Bible says.  People come to faith in Jesus Christ when God, in the form of The Holy Spirit, gives them the faith and repentance to do so.  They did nothing on their own to be converted or to earn conversion but were given the ability to truly understand and change because God made it happen. This is a sharp distinction in knowing about God (intellectual knowledge) and true conversion (firsthand experience) of knowing God in a personal way. A change happens instantly but means the converted person is in a spiritually immature state of being and spiritual progress is slow like a child growing to adulthood as the change becomes more complete and mature.

 

This view is commonly referred to as Calvinism or 5 point Calvinism, but is a misnomer because not everyone holding this view of conversion/salvation agrees with Calvin on every other doctrinal issue he’s associated with. 

 

I don't know what other religions teach.

 

But this doesn't make any sense to me.  I thought Christianity was based on the idea that anyone can be saved if they only believe?  You are saying that God chooses who will be saved by giving them a special understanding/relationship/ability to believe that he doesn't give to others.  If God chooses who will be given the understanding, God chooses who will be saved - it is not open to everyone?

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

But this doesn't make any sense to me.  I thought Christianity was based on the idea that anyone can be saved if they only believe?  You are saying that God chooses who will be saved by giving them a special understanding/relationship/ability to believe that he doesn't give to others.  If God chooses who will be given the understanding, God chooses who will be saved - it is not open to everyone?

 

 

Some people do in fact believe what you are saying here.

[Amy in NH]

Some people do in fact believe what you are saying here.

 

Thanks for clueing me in.  That's not at all what I understood in any of the Catholic or Protestant doctrine I've ever seen/heard.  I'm surprised that would be called Christianity at all, since Christianity was supposed to be the idea that all people are saved if they believe in Jesus and repent of their sins/ask for forgiveness.

 

Going by this new interpretation it makes no sense to "try" to be a Christian if God has already decided whether or not you will be saved.  (not that I'm trying)  Conversion is futile.

 

learn something new every day... 

 

[texasmama]

But this doesn't make any sense to me.  I thought Christianity was based on the idea that anyone can be saved if they only believe?  You are saying that God chooses who will be saved by giving them a special understanding/relationship/ability to believe that he doesn't give to others.  If God chooses who will be given the understanding, God chooses who will be saved - it is not open to everyone?

 

This is Calvinism, as the person who posted stated.

 

Calvinistic Christians are a small subset of Christians, just like Methodists are a small subset of Christians.  Calvinism crosses some denominations, and people can hold Calvinistic beliefs but attend a church that does not and vice versa.

 

I am Christian but not Calvinist, just like I am Christian but not Methodist.

[Cammie]

If he is really interested in conversion he might want to check out the discussions happening in India.

 

Many (not all, but many) Hindus converted to Christianity in order to benefit from some of the perks that the Christian missionaries were offering. They are sometimes referred to as "rice Christians."  However, until recently there was no way for people to "convert back" to Hinduism.  So the Hindu right came up with a re-conversion ceremony.  Now, the Hindu right has been known to forcibly convert whole Muslim communities to Hinduism.  So often times conversion can happen even when actual beliefs have not changed.

 

Just an interesting side note.

 

[Cammie]

And to add to the experiences shared...

 

I was raised in a liberal Protestant church (dad, grandfather, great-grandfather all pastors.)

 

I went to a Hare Krishna Temple when I was in HS.  Then I "converted."  I didn't stop believing in what I had learned in the church.  I just added in what I liked from Hare Krishna.  Then I left Hare Krishna because I didn't like how women were treated where I was attending.

 

Now, I am married to a Hindu and raise my children in both faiths.  I never had a conversion ceremony, or a re-conversion ceremony.  I just decided what I believed and acted accordingly.

[HS Mom in NC]

But this doesn't make any sense to me.  I thought Christianity was based on the idea that anyone can be saved if they only believe?  You are saying that God chooses who will be saved by giving them a special understanding/relationship/ability to believe that he doesn't give to others.  If God chooses who will be given the understanding, God chooses who will be saved - it is not open to everyone?

 

 

Yes, a Calvinist view of election is that God chooses by granting those He foreknew to become sons of God.  This is most explicitly explained in Romans chapter 9. Other commonly cited verses include, but are not limited to: Romans 8: 29, John 6:44, John 15: 16, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Ephesians 1:4-5 & 11.  We do not believe the word predestined is a synonym of foreknew.  We believe it means predestined-literally. Beforehand it the outcome was decided and intentionally made to happen.

 

Christians have very different views on just about every doctrinal point and have for a couple of thousand years now. The Arminian view on election (the opposite of the Calvinist view) is that all people have free will, and by free will they mean the ability in and of themselves, apart from God granting it, to choose to believe and repent. 

 

Too many Christians, whatever their convictions are on doctrinal issues are often unfamiliar with differing views.  I think an awareness is valuable and I suggest Christians read widely differing views within Christianity.

[KungFuPanda]

You just change your mind. It's that simple. Generally it's not an overnight thing. Sometimes you mark this with a formal ceremony and sometimes you don't. It's like going through childhood with chocolate being your favorite flavor of ice cream, then growing up, learning more about other flavors, trying them, and realizing in adulthood that butter pecan is really your favorite. It could be that you didn't know about butter pecan before, or that your tastes just changed.

[Ipsey]

If he is really interested in conversion he might want to check out the discussions happening in India.

 

Many (not all, but many) Hindus converted to Christianity in order to benefit from some of the perks that the Christian missionaries were offering. They are sometimes referred to as "rice Christians."  However, until recently there was no way for people to "convert back" to Hinduism.  So the Hindu right came up with a re-conversion ceremony.  Now, the Hindu right has been known to forcibly convert whole Muslim communities to Hinduism.  So often times conversion can happen even when actual beliefs have not changed.

 

Just an interesting side note.

 

Somewhat related, there was a fascinating era of "Mormon Baseball Baptism" during the 60s and 70s, during which many young people of other faiths (or no faith) were baptised into the LDS church after being draw into Mormon mission baseball groups created for just that purpose.

 

These kids wanted the attention of the American missionaries and to have something fun to do. It was quite effective.

 

Now, this isn't particular to Mormonism at all. There are lots of different Christian groups and others who create social groups around a certain sport for the ultimate goal of conversion, but this one was particularly interesting because it was an entire church initiative from a church with a very strong centralized missions bent.

[Kiara.I]

But does an outward appearance of faith equal true faith? I mean, I could pretend to be a Christian, but it wouldn't reflect my inner knowledge. So when we read that entire groups of people convert from one faith to the opposite faith (if you will--I'm not saying it well but I mean like from Christianity to Islam, given the thousands of years of not getting along), how can that really be? Unless it really is that the change happens incrementally but the books make it sound like they just liked the new way better.

 

Hard to wrap our atheist brains around.

 

Okay, this point here.

You're talking about historical conversions, right?  Not modern?

 

Historically, there were not atheists.  I mean, there were, I'm sure, but they didn't necessarily say so.  The *entire population* was the same faith.  (Of course there were areas where there was more than one faith present due to trade or whatever.)  But in most places, at most times, *everybody* had faith.  Except, of course, that they probably didn't.  In Medieval England, every person was Christian.  Some were devout.  Some were not.

 

If you are practicing a faith because it's the cultural thing to do, and not because you actually CARE, then it's very, very easy to "convert" because of economic, political, social incentives.  LIkely you don't care any more about the new one.

 

I think your son is looking at this from a very modern lens where people *are* outspokenly atheist.  Therefore, if you practice a faith, you are devout.  (Not that that's always the case, still!  But it may be his assumption?)  And if you're *devout*, and strongly believe your faith then yes, converting is a big deal.  If you are not devout, and practice your faith only because it's what one does, and you don't actually care about it, then converting isn't a big deal (as long as "everyone does" converts with you.)

 

Plus, history books take the long view.  "Everyone converted" may be true in a space of 40 years at the nation level, but it might have been a slightly messy 40 years at the village level.

[Pam in CT]

re: "rice Christians" and similar carrot-for-conversion phenomena:

Somewhat related, there was a fascinating era of "Mormon Baseball Baptism" during the 60s and 70s, during which many young people of other faiths (or no faith) were baptised into the LDS church after being draw into Mormon mission baseball groups created for just that purpose.

 

These kids wanted the attention of the American missionaries and to have something fun to do. It was quite effective.

 

Now, this isn't particular to Mormonism at all. There are lots of different Christian groups and others who create social groups around a certain sport for the ultimate goal of conversion, but this one was particularly interesting because it was an entire church initiative from a church with a very strong centralized missions bent.

 

Yes... and evangelist-funded school feeding programs and hospitals in poorer nations, or relief efforts tied to missionary outreach, etc can have similar effects.  (And such programs are not limited to Christian missionaries either -- Wahabi-funded hospitals and schools can be viewed through the same lens, and I'm sure there are examples across other traditions.)

 

I see such initiatives as also being on the coercive spectrum, although this kind of coercion is obviously more benign than, say, the techniques of the Inquisiton...

 

 

... and therefore as qualitatively different than the case where an individual makes an autonomous decision to convert based on individual agency (rather than an external group implicitly or explicitly linking conversion to access to a needed or desired service).

[Kathryn]

Ah, I misunderstood the question. I thought we were discussing individuals. As far as historical mass conversions, my suspicion is that an outward "conversion" happened immediately while an inward conversion happened over generations of practicing the new religion. My mind goes to Russia, both to the conversion of the Slavs and to the attempt to atheist-ize (not sure how to say that) Soviet Russia. Someone else already mentioned that even after a couple of generations, there are many people who never let go of their beliefs.

[Ipsey]

Ah, I misunderstood the question. I thought we were discussing individuals. As far as historical mass conversions, my suspicion is that an outward "conversion" happened immediately while an inward conversion happened over generations of practicing the new religion. My mind goes to Russia, both to the conversion of the Slavs and to the attempt to atheist-ize (not sure how to say that) Soviet Russia. Someone else already mentioned that even after a couple of generations, there are many people who never let go of their beliefs.

 

There's a really fascinating BBC Production called "Around the World in 80 Faiths" and my children and I found it quite interesting. You can watch the full episodes on youtube.

 

The narrator/guide is an Anglican Priest from the UK and he travels the world to "discover" some of the faith practices and beliefs of different peoples.

 

The episode on Europe addresses Russia and exactly what Kathryn's talking about here.

 

It was a very good program, I thought. I learned a lot.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Around_the_World_in_80_Faiths