The Party-Fail and thinking thru bad outcomes

[Ginevra]

I'm thinking about a dear young woman, my friend's DD. I did not see this coming, but I think I'm dense, because two other people close to the situation said this did not surprise them. Bright, beautiful young lady began her freshman year in a challenging STEM major at a great state school. I knew she was partying, given FB posts I had seen, so...not that this part was a surprise. But, she did very poorly - that was a surprise. Parents are not willing to throw good money after bad and, after giving her options (go to CC, get FT work), but with conditions (pay for car, phone), bright young lady canned it all. She is moving FAR away with her boyfriend. :(

 

I'm very sad for my friend and, if the young lady remains on this path, I'm sad for her, too. She has a ton of promise for a bright future, but it seems she will need to take a few courses in The School of Reality for a while.

 

It also raises questions for me...I'm never one to waste an opportunity to learn by observation, so I'm wondering how I would approach this problem if it cropped up in my own brood. I'm also wondering if other parents generally give warnings to their college kids, i.e., "If XYZ happens, we will cut off the financial support..." or if that is too negative, too much assumption of the worst. Is it better to behave as though you believe they will succeed and then handle it if they don't? Or give fair warning before Day One?

[Carol in Cal.]

I have debated this myself, and luckily in my own family it's pretty clear cut.  DD attends a college that costs more than we were planning to pay.  One of the key reasons that we ended up letting her go there is that she won a big scholarship.  To keep it she has to graduate in 4 years AND keep her grades up over a 3.0.  We also required her to take out her own little student loans ($5500/year).  Our costs for her attendance are much higher than that, but it's a partnership.  She knows she has to keep up her grades AND earn some money, both of which require some seriousness.

[elegantlion]

In our case, I'm okay with reality. I think many are capable of a bright future, but I'm not sure everyone who starts on the journey understands what it will take. 

 

I also try not to make hardened boundaries, I like to adjust as we go along - which we have done. 

 

We openly discuss the pitfalls of partying and because ds in interested in engineering, we discuss work load. I also know my child well and know that he's not going to make huge leaps in effort or ability in one summer. In our case, that means starting locally for college and getting used to the pace and workload BEFORE considering engineering school. IOW ease into the transition. There is not magic EASY button and I'd be remiss to make ds think there is. 

 

If he burns out, flakes out, or checks out, he'll be living at home to regroup. I am a gentle parent, but I also don't sugarcoat the harsh realities of life and consequences of choices. I am unwilling to set ultimatums that I won't keep and when it comes to ds, I'm a softie. So, honestly, I don't know what I'd do in that case. I would assume there would be a dialogue and resetting of goals. I don't see it being a "You can't live here if you don't" type of thing. This is his home too and the last thing I'd ever want ds to feel is that he has no where to go but leave town. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If any of mine wash out of programs and screw up their best potential trajectory, they may still live here if they are clean and sober and either working full time or doing a combo of work and training.

 

Party crazed fools who will not study or work and only bring worry for parents and bad examples for younger siblings will be invited to try their luck elsewhere. I can't imagine my boys going this route but they have no illusions about being supported if they do.

 

But a lot of kids are going to make mistakes and hamstring their options without really meaning to self-destruct. If that happens they will need firm and loving parental support and guidance more than ever, if they will submit to it -- come home and get a job, regroup, see counselors, rethink options, etc. That's life.

[abacus2]

Unless it were a financial impossibility due to lost scholarships or by "doing poorly" you mean actually failed more than half her classes, I can't imagine pulling a kid out of college completely over a bad very first semester of college ever. I would be upset, of course, but college and the freedom that come with it are a huge adjustment. I would make clear that without a massive improvement, her freshman year would be her only one at that school.

[Jenny in Florida]

When our son chose to focus on private universities that were too far away to commute from home, we made it clear that his ability to remain there was dependent on him doing well enough to keep all of his scholarships. We reminded him a few times during the first semester when he kept brushing off questions about how classes were going that we simply cannot afford to make up the difference out of pocket if he loses the scholarships.

 

Nonetheless, his first semester GPA came in a little below what he needs to hang onto the bulk of the scholarships. It's not a crisis until and unless he fails to do better in the second semester, since it's the end-of-year average that counts. He chose his courses for the second semester with this need to do better in mind, and he has been made VERY aware that he will not be returning in the fall unless he makes the necessary improvements. We've also be very straightforward about the fact that blowing it the first semester means he has forfeited his right to get irritable when we pry a bit about academics. Essentially, he's on probation with us, even if the school doesn't call it that. Keeping his grades high enough to keep those scholarships is how he earns the right to live in the dorm at the expensive, private, four-year university rather than living at home and commuting to the local community college or state university. If he doesn't live up to that expectation, we'll need to reassess.

 

Meanwhile, when our son was not in the room, I have assured my husband that this kind of thing isn't terribly unusual. Lots of first-semester students find college a bit of an adjustment. 

 

So, we'll see how it goes.

 

Edited to add: I should probably clarify that "partying" wasn't my son's problem. He was simply having too good a time hanging out with friends and signing up for a bunch of extracurriculars and throwing himself at the projects he enjoyed while not giving enough attention to certain classes he didn't. He did quite well (A's and A/B's) in the classes to which he paid attention. He's a very bright young man and has been used to being able to do "well enough" without much stress and strain. Despite the many warnings I've given him over the years that he would eventually reach a point at which skating by wasn't going to work, I don't think he believed me until he actually saw it happen.  He also had communication issues regarding a couple of classes early in the semester that he didn't handle promptly and that came back to bite him at the end of the term. He seems to have learned that lesson, at least, and has been more proactive with similar issues this semester.

[EmilyGF]

I had a lot of friends take a quarter or more off to get their lives in order. Some lived nearby (some lived with me) and worked. Most of their families didn't have enough money to pay for them to goof off at college. Granted, my college wasn't known for partying, but people still failed out due to computer games, alcohol, depression, and poor time management. 

 

She should take a leave of absence so as not to burn her bridges. Many people I knew quit college and then went back later when they realized how little they could earn without a college degree. One guy graduated with me - 13 years after he had started. Others programmed for a few years at a start up and came back to college when the start up went belly-up.

 

Emily

[Miss Mousie]

I have debated this myself, and luckily in my own family it's pretty clear cut.  DD attends a college that costs more than we were planning to pay.  One of the key reasons that we ended up letting her go there is that she won a big scholarship.  To keep it she has to graduate in 4 years AND keep her grades up over a 3.0.  We also required her to take out her own little student loans ($5500/year).  Our costs for her attendance are much higher than that, but it's a partnership.  She knows she has to keep up her grades AND earn some money, both of which require some seriousness.

 

Hypothetically, given that my kid is only in 8th grade -

 

I think I would give some sort of reality check before he left home, but no specific GPA requirements or dollar figures or that sort of thing.  I would also do something similar to Carol above in terms of requiring DS to have some "skin in the game," so to speak.  I will not pay every dime because I have seen in my own college days the difference in work ethic and seriousness of study between the kids whose parents paid everything and the kids who were spending their own money, at least partially and/or with their own loans.

 

If DS had a lousy first semester, I'd probably tell him he has spring semester to make huge improvements and then decide how to proceed depending on the outcome.  I can't see myself tolerating more than that, though.  I wouldn't want him to move across the country (and presumably stop speaking to us), but I also wouldn't want to let him take advantage of me just because he doesn't want to grow up.

[8filltheheart]

I have trouble understanding this kind of scenario. Raising them their entire lives, choices and their consequences are discussed from the time they are really little. Responsibility for providing for their own futures is also instilled in them from a young age.

 

Does that mean our kids are immune to making really poor decisions? No. But, we know our kids well enough to know which ones are more likely to make good decisions and which ones poor ones. We make decisions accordingly. I guess it boils down to the fact that I wouldn't fund an expensive, live away experience for one of my kids if I knew they were one of the ones that made poor choices. I would see myself as still needing to be more engaged as a parent. (This is where we are with our Aspie. He would make self-destructive decisions continuously if he wasn't constantly reined in.)

 

For our kids who are fully capable of making adult decisions, if they failed out, they would be facing similar consequences as the scenario posted. They could move back home temporarily until they got their feet under them and redirected, but it would not be funded and it would be temporary. We wouldn't bail them out or re-fund a college education. But, honestly, I can't imagine any of them asking us to. They know that we refuse to take responsibility for their decisions. We treat them like adults and they respect that. If they were fully remorseful and wanting a new start.....I am guessing we would have to deal with it at that point of time. (Since we haven't faced any of these as real issues, they are all hypotheticals.)

 

I just read the OP and my response to my 16 yr old. She said she can't imagine any of them going to school and flunking a class due to partying, only if they really were struggling with the subject. Got to say, that made me feel good. But, our kids are raised with a daily focus on character and values--they are core to their daily lives. They are also raised with the understanding that education is their daily duty for serving the Lord. We serve the Lord in our vocations. Student is their vocation.

 

FWIW, we have never had a conversation about behavior, grades, etc before they have left for college. I would think it would be too little, too late by that point.

[swimmermom3]

I'm thinking about a dear young woman, my friend's DD. I did not see this coming, but I think I'm dense, because two other people close to the situation said this did not surprise them. Bright, beautiful young lady began her freshman year in a challenging STEM major at a great state school. I knew she was partying, given FB posts I had seen, so...not that this part was a surprise. But, she did very poorly - that was a surprise. Parents are not willing to throw good money after bad and, after giving her options (go to CC, get FT work), but with conditions (pay for car, phone), bright young lady canned it all. She is moving FAR away with her boyfriend. :(

 

I'm very sad for my friend and, if the young lady remains on this path, I'm sad for her, too. She has a ton of promise for a bright future, but it seems she will need to take a few courses in The School of Reality for a while.

 

It also raises questions for me...I'm never one to waste an opportunity to learn by observation, so I'm wondering how I would approach this problem if it cropped up in my own brood. I'm also wondering if other parents generally give warnings to their college kids, i.e., "If XYZ happens, we will cut off the financial support..." or if that is too negative, too much assumption of the worst. Is it better to behave as though you believe they will succeed and then handle it if they don't? Or give fair warning before Day One?

 

I was a National Honor Society and Spanish Honor Society student in a small, private, all-girls Catholic high school. I went to a large state university and spent my freshman year on a frat court and partying my brains out. I was fortunate in that the frat was good house with strong leadership and one of my "big brothers" came from a similar background and kept me from being totally stupid. I am not sure anyone including myself could have seen that one coming. My folks told me I would need to come home for my sophomore year and attend the CC. I was fairly unhappy, but couldn't argue with the reasoning.  I worked part time, made straight-A's, and returned to state u as a junior and a somewhat wiser person.

 

With 30 years hindsight and a bit more compassion for myself, I can recognize where I could have made some changes, but I would say too that regrets for lost time and opportunities haunt me to this day and grad school didn't quite eradicate my regrets.

 

I am very sorry for your friend and for her daughter. I believed too firmly in the value of an education even as I partied on to ever continue dropping out and not going back. 

 

At the end of my husband's sophomore year, he couldn't see the relevance of what he was studying in relation to the real world.  He worked as a bus boy and a line chef for two years and then came back and finished with honors having decided that relevance be darned. His course was perhaps wiser than mine.

 

 

double post.

I wonder how much of this is caused by the helicopter parenting in the high school years we hear so much about, and kids having no decision making authority over their lives until they get to college and have almost complete control?

[Annie G]

Lots of kids struggle adjusting the first semester or two of college. I'm sure the partying didn't help, but even without it, she might have had poor grades. It's a learning experience.   I wouldn't pull a kid's support after just one term, but it probably warrants a serious talk about priorities and balancing obligations with fun. 

[regentrude]

There are different reasons why a freshman might do poorly during her first semester in college. Partying does not have to be the sole, or even the underlying cause. As a college instructor teaching introductory courses, I see this happen all the time: a student might be poorly prepared for the level and work load and might feel overwhelmed. This is actually quite common. Many students need a few months to find their bearings, to adjust to the new surroundings, to form productive study habits, to find and use academic support systems. Some students develop depression, and these are usually the ones who stop going to class and making an effort altogether. They need counseling, not punishment. The transition to college can be very difficult for young people, and they are at a very vulnerable age.

 

So, without knowing more details, I do not feel equipped to make the judgment that partying indeed caused the failing grades. It might, but partying also might have been a symptom of an underlying problem, a way to cope with loneliness and depression.

 

8FillTheHeart stated very eloquently what I was going to say. I can not imagine my children blowing off their education and not putting in an effort; I have raised them, educated them, know them, and I would not send a student away to college if I had doubts that they were aware of, and ready for, the responsibility.

This does, of course, not guarantee that the student will have smooth sailing - there could still be difficulties adapting to courses and work load, difficulties finding friends, and the possibility of mental health issues. I hope that, were my children to display such problems, I could support them and assist them in finding a solution.

I would, however, not want to judge a freshman as failure for a poor start during her first semester.

I am saying this as somebody who had a horrible first semester. My first physics test was a D. I did not understand anything the Linear Algebra teacher was teaching and stopped going to class. I was lonely. It took me several months to find a study group and learn how to study; from that point on, I was a straight A student. At the university I am now teaching the very course that brought me to tears my first semester and had me seriously consider dropping out. I tell this to my students. There is hope. One semester is not enough time to judge.

[swimmermom3]

There are different reasons why a freshman might do poorly during her first semester in college. Partying does not have to be the sole, or even the underlying cause. As a college instructor teaching introductory courses, I see this happen all the time: a student might be poorly prepared for the level and work load and might feel overwhelmed. This is actually quite common. Many students need a few months to find their bearings, to adjust to the new surroundings, to form productive study habits, to find and use academic support systems. Some students develop depression, and these are usually the ones who stop going to class and making an effort altogether. They need counseling, not punishment. The transition to college can be very difficult for young people, and they are at a very vulnerable age.

 

So, without knowing more details, I do not feel equipped to make the judgment that partying indeed caused the failing grades. It might, but partying also might have been a symptom of an underlying problem, a way to cope with loneliness and depression.

 

8FillTheHeart stated very eloquently what I was going to say. I can not imagine my children blowing off their education and not putting in an effort; I have raised them, educated them, know them, and I would not send a student away to college if I had doubts that they were aware of, and ready for, the responsibility.

This does, of course, not guarantee that the student will have smooth sailing - there could still be difficulties adapting to courses and work load, difficulties finding friends, and the possibility of mental health issues. I hope that, were my children to display such problems, I could support them and assist them in finding a solution.

I would, however, not want to judge a freshman as failure for a poor start during her first semester.

I am saying this as somebody who had a horrible first semester. My first physics test was a D. I did not understand anything the Linear Algebra teacher was teaching and stopped going to class. I was lonely. It took me several months to find a study group and learn how to study; from that point on, I was a straight A student. At the university I am now teaching the very course that brought me to tears my first semester and had me seriously consider dropping out. I tell this to my students. There is hope. One semester is not enough time to judge.

 

This post really reaches into the heart of the matter - students who are unprepared for college life for a wide variety of reasons.

 

Sending a child home doesn't necessarily fix things.

 

I grew up out in the country where I had my own bedroom with a double bed and I slept in complete quite and darkness.  Then I went to college where I slept in a twin bed with a noisy plastic mattress cover with a roommate a few feet away from me in a room that was never dark and never really quiet for any length of time.  I had a terrible time getting to sleep and probably slept no more than 2 or 3 hours per night for most of that year, unless of course, I partied. Sadly, my tolerance is fairly high so I was usually the last one standing holding everyone else's head while they were sick, instead of sleeping.  I loved being on campus and loved the social interaction; I also had no concept of balance.  I was a good student who didn't need to work too hard for grades and I was definitely missing study skills when I got to campus. Add all that to the fact that I had no clue how to talk to my professors, if fact I am not sure it dawned on me that it was okay to talk to them until I was a senior!

 

Some of those things were still problematic when I went back, but I was determined not to have to go home again.

 

Sometimes I worry about stretching Sailor Dude academically as far as I am. He'll probably be the only homeschooled kid without straight "A's," but that choice is colored by my experience in college. I want him to know that struggling towards mastery is a good thing and so is asking a teacher for help. I had to tell him that I was emailing the AP Biology teacher that ds was coming in to talk to him before I could guarantee that Sailor Dude would do so. I felt awful for being "that parent," but what ds was doing wasn't working and he needed a fresh perspective. The teacher gave him very practical advice and it's working. I hope ds takes that lesson to college with him.

 

[Guest]

I wonder how much of this is caused by the helicopter parenting in the high school years we hear so much about, and kids having no decision making authority over their lives until they get to college and have almost complete control?

I think that is a valid question, but for the family I'm speaking of, is not the case. This is why it surprised me. The young woman has handled several responsibilities before. The parents are frugal and not coddling. She worked, managed a car, took multiple AP classes, etc. before going to college.

 

I remember a similar flunk-out with a different family, but that one did not surprise me at all. The young man did not even want to go to college; his parents "made" him.

[Guest]

I have trouble understanding this kind of scenario. Raising them their entire lives, choices and their consequences are discussed from the time they are really little. Responsibility for providing for their own futures is also instilled in them from a young age.

This is why it puzzles me and, if I am honest, it is where it raises my anxiety about my own kids. This young lady has not been raised in La-La land. By all appearances, the family promotes values similar to those promoted by myself. She even has a negative example in an older sib who had a rocky start into adulthood. I even wondered if the older sib could talk some sense into her by saying, "don't head down this path. It's freaking all kinds of hard."

[swimmermom3]

I think that is a valid question, but for the family I'm speaking of, is not the case. This is why it surprised me. The young woman has handled several responsibilities before. The parents are frugal and not coddling. She worked, managed a car, took multiple AP classes, etc. before going to college.

 

I remember a similar flunk-out with a different family, but that one did not surprise me at all. The young man did not even want to go to college; his parents "made" him.

 

I think sometimes it is not easy for young people, especially young women, who have been relatively competent teens and for whom everyone has a certain level of expectations, to find themselves in a place where they have perhaps a changing identity or a feeling of less control over their environment or themselves.

 

I suspect that kids like EightFilltheHeart's go to school fairly well-grounded in who they are and what they believe.  They are able to hold onto that sense of self when confronted with life on campus and the academic requirements.  Other kids are more adrift, less sure of themselves and the multitude of changes college represents can be overwhelming no matter how much a student may want to be there.

 

"Expectations" are tricky and powerful things and some kids find them stifling at best, terrifying at worst. "My parents expect great things from me, yet my Calculus book looks like it's written in Greek." I think what we all have to plan and train our kids for years before they even hit high school is how they will respond to a challenging situation like being lost in your first college class. "Challenge" cannot be perceived as the end of the world.

[hornblower]

I think that is a valid question, but for the family I'm speaking of, is not the case. This is why it surprised me. The young woman has handled several responsibilities before. The parents are frugal and not coddling. She worked, managed a car, took multiple AP classes, etc. before going to college.

 

I remember a similar flunk-out with a different family, but that one did not surprise me at all. The young man did not even want to go to college; his parents "made" him.

 

wellll... seeing that additional info in a way makes me wonder - is it possible that she took too much responsibility too young? Could she have been burned out before she even got there? And wanted desparately to have fun because otherwise, I know a lot of kids see their lives as: 4 years of brutal post sec, and then some brutal years in unpaid internships while searching for work, or some brutal years in grad school, and then more loans while worrying about paying off existing student loans, and then an endless grind of work, worrying about having work, worrying about losing work, worrying about saving, worrying about mortgages etc...

 

I can really see the appeal of playing ostrich and sticking your head in the sand & just playing for a bit if adult life seems like that, kwim?

 

[hornblower]

I wonder how much of this is caused by the helicopter parenting in the high school years we hear so much about, and kids having no decision making authority over their lives until they get to college and have almost complete control?

 

that can't be it because among my group of friends who all went to the same uni, several were partying hard & on academic probation within the first year; by end of 2nd year some got kicked out. Two of those came back - one became a lawyer, another got a PhD and works in int'l development.  A few never came back. Those were the 80's and we were all latchkey kids from elementary school, the very opposite of helicopter parenting... 

 

Some kids just take a while to mature & get their stuff together.

[8filltheheart]

I am the youngest of a large family. My parents raised us all the same way. I have a sibling who is an atheist, one who is an agnostic, siblings who had been involved in drugs, etc. I am nothing like them at all. I know from watching my own family that individuals make very individual decisions. My parents tried to control my siblings behaviors until they ended up driving a wedge between them. It was a futile endeavor. During those periods in my siblings lives, they had no respect for my parents POV and even now their lives are definitely far removed from how they were raised. (Not a single one of the children in my sibling group has a life even closely resembling another's.)

 

That is also why I have always been very clear with my children that I will not take on the personal responsibility of their decisions made as adults. They are the ones making them. Not me. The consequences of those choices are theirs to live with. I refuse to take their decisions personally.

 

Our household is filled with theological discussions. Free will is a normal topic of conversation. We have done the best we can to prepare them to face the fact that the world is full of conflicting points of view and no one can determine where they are going to stand other than they themselves. I am not going to lecture them or interfere. I share my personal feelings with my adult children one time. They know what we think and believe as their parents, but they have to make their own decisions. We let life teach the lessons that only life can, and we pray. They are not immune to poor choices. But, those choices are theirs, along with everything that comes with them.

 

The only one of our adult children where that is not true is our Aspie. He has no self-control and has a very addictive personality. We do restrict his access to things and monitor him more like a child than an adult bc he is completely dependent on us.

[MomatHWTK]

I would guess that what the young girl wasn't equipped for was falling in love.  If one chooses a bad influence for a partner, all bets are off.  I know adults who make terrible permanently life changing decisions once they fall in "love." 

 

IMO, recognizing stress and depression, dealing with peer pressure and knowing when to seek advice are all important life skills that a child moving toward college should be developing. 

[hillfarm]

This is one of the reasons I really like the PSEO/dual enrollment option. For 11th and 12th grades, dd is taking all her classes at the local community college. We both realize that cc is not exactly the same as the local university, but more like a halfway measure. She is learning how to manage her own communications with administration and faculty. She is slowly learning to manage her own work load and schedule. She is learning what to expect from various professors. I do feel it is good preparation.

 

Way back when I was in college, I worked 3 summers as an RA for a dorm of provisional students. They would be admitted full-time if they could get a C or better in 2 summer classes. I'm sure most of them had received plenty of parental input about working hard and making the grades. As their RA, I was very clear in my introductory speech about what it would take to get the grades and what to do if any of them had difficulty and needed help. There were special tutors on campus available to help them. We offered study groups and learning circles. Faculty offered extra office hours and meeting times. We did everything we could think of to help these kids achieve academic success. And yet, after 5 years, the program was discontinued due to such low numbers of students achieving the necessary grades to continue on.

 

IMO, the problem stemmed from the fact that few of these students had actually bought into the relationship between their college education and their future. They saw college as a reward for doing well in high school, not as a launch pad to prepare for their future careers. Excessive partying was rampant. I think most of them had little experience with dealing with negative consequences of their own making and minimal experience with self control and delayed gratification. Several seemed in total disbelief when they failed to meet the grade requirements and were refused admission. I think they really thought either their parents could fix it for them or that the college administration would give them another chance.

 

As a parent, I am trying to ease my dd into a role where she freely and frequently discusses her educational options and struggles with dh and I, but one in which she realizes that she is the person actually driving the situation. I am trying to give her lots of practice in identifying work load and balancing that with her social life and other obligations. I frequently introduce her to recent graduates who can give her insight to the fact that college is just the beginning, not the wrap party. So far, with a few bumps in the road, it seems to be working.

 

After having said all that, I must add that if I am contributing substantial financial support to ANYTHING (dd's education, a charity, a business investment, etc.), I fully expect to receive periodic and accurate evaluations of how things are going and areas that need improvement. I refuse to bankroll anyone, particularly my beloved dd, and enable them to run headlong down the road to ruin.

[Guest]

So, is the boyfriend offering an MRS? That sounds like more the issue than not getting the coursework done.

 

Most people I know talk up 'work hard, play hard', and they will bring the kid home at end of 2nd semester if he doesnt adjust to being away at college. All of the kids i know are repeating courses as they knew coming in that public high school had not prepared them....we parents view it as cheaper than private high school. I had a college roomie that went the flunk at school, take at home over summer, retake at school route with one course, so if the kid didnt go to a challenging high school, I expect college to take more than 4 semesters.

I highly doubt it. She doesn't seem remotely lovestruck. I've seen them together recently and was not even certain he *was* her boyfriend; he seemed like a casual friend. She has also in the past spoken of how she "is never having kids." Just saying she doesn't seem to idealize domestic life, KWIM? She was definitely partying plenty; of that I have no question.

 

AFA preparedness out of high school, her school district is one of the best in the entire country.

[texasmama]

Change a few details, and I was this girl.  Some folks have to learn the hard way but most of the time, it works out in the end.  It did for me.  I took a year off of college in the middle to do all the wrong things*.  Since they didn't kill me, they really did make me stronger.  On balance, I'd rather have skipped the whole deal, though.  Since I didn't get dead, pregnant, or an incurable disease, all is well in middle age.  I also have a different lens with which to view my own kids.

 

My parents, bless them, muddled through with me as best they could for two naïve people who had two hell on wheels teens/young adult kids.  Mostly, my brother and I alternated falling off the map of safety and common sense.

 

I think my take-away to apply to my own kids is that most things do work out in the end, to not give up, and to offer plenty of grace and second chances.  My parents offered me these things when I did not deserve them, and I am ever grateful.  That said, I suspect that I will be able to spot an errant kid better than someone without my personal history, and that seems like a helpful skill to have.  :)

 

*live with a violent, drug addicted man ten years older than I who had abandoned his wife and two kids due to his drug and alcohol use...I was never going to "love" him, you know.  But it took about a year to extricate myself from the relationship fully after I left.  It did help that he went to prison not too soon after I escaped  (out of a window, shoeless, with no contacts in, in the middle of the night, through a field to a convenience store)

[texasmama]

In our case, I'm okay with reality. I think many are capable of a bright future, but I'm not sure everyone who starts on the journey understands what it will take. 

 

I also try not to make hardened boundaries, I like to adjust as we go along - which we have done. 

 

We openly discuss the pitfalls of partying and because ds in interested in engineering, we discuss work load. I also know my child well and know that he's not going to make huge leaps in effort or ability in one summer. In our case, that means starting locally for college and getting used to the pace and workload BEFORE considering engineering school. IOW ease into the transition. There is not magic EASY button and I'd be remiss to make ds think there is. 

 

If he burns out, flakes out, or checks out, he'll be living at home to regroup. I am a gentle parent, but I also don't sugarcoat the harsh realities of life and consequences of choices. I am unwilling to set ultimatums that I won't keep and when it comes to ds, I'm a softie. So, honestly, I don't know what I'd do in that case. I would assume there would be a dialogue and resetting of goals. I don't see it being a "You can't live here if you don't" type of thing. This is his home too and the last thing I'd ever want ds to feel is that he has no where to go but leave town. 

Hello, parenting twin.  :)

[texasmama]

I wonder how much of this is caused by the helicopter parenting in the high school years we hear so much about, and kids having no decision making authority over their lives until they get to college and have almost complete control?

I had an amazing amount of independence and autonomy in high school and still went to college and crashed and burned.  It is a very individual deal, who succeeds out of the chute and who does not.

[Guest]

Change a few details, and I was this girl. Some folks have to learn the hard way but most of the time, it works out in the end. It did for me. I took a year off of college in the middle to do all the wrong things*. Since they didn't kill me, they really did make me stronger. On balance, I'd rather have skipped the whole deal, though. Since I didn't get dead, pregnant, or an incurable disease, all is well in middle age. I also have a different lens with which to view my own kids.

 

My parents, bless them, muddled through with me as best they could for two naïve people who had two hell on wheels teens/young adult kids. Mostly, my brother and I alternated falling off the map of safety and common sense.

 

I think my take-away to apply to my own kids is that most things do work out in the end, to not give up, and to offer plenty of grace and second chances. My parents offered me these things when I did not deserve them, and I am ever grateful. That said, I suspect that I will be able to spot an errant kid better than someone without my personal history, and that seems like a helpful skill to have. :)

 

*live with a violent, drug addicted man ten years older than I who had abandoned his wife and two kids due to his drug and alcohol use...I was never going to "love" him, you know. But it took about a year to extricate myself from the relationship fully after I left. It did help that he went to prison not too soon after I escaped (out of a window, shoeless, with no contacts in, in the middle of the night, through a field to a convenience store)

Wow. What a story!

 

I do think beautiful young lady will get her head out of her a$$ sooner or later; I told her mother as much. I think she will soon see that two unskilled young people can't just set the world on fire and life is expensive; living with parents who expect you to pay for your phone starts looking pretty easy, I'm thinking.

 

Still...I do hope nothing dreadful happens before the learning curve sorts out, and I'm hurt for her folks.

[texasmama]

Wow. What a story!

 

I do think beautiful young lady will get her head out of her a$$ sooner or later; I told her mother as much. I think she will soon see that two unskilled young people can't just set the world on fire and life is expensive; living with parents who expect you to pay for your phone starts looking pretty easy, I'm thinking.

 

Still...I do hope nothing dreadful happens before the learning curve sorts out, and I'm hurt for her folks.

And that is just part of the story.  When I talk about it now, it does not even seem like me. 

 

Most young ladies and young men really do figure it out.  Some need to actually experience what "hard" looks like in an up close and personal sort of way.  Chances are very high that this young lady will wake up and realize the err of her ways.  Like the prodigal son, I hope she goes home, and I hope she is welcomed and loved and helped to restore herself.

 

I know my parents spent a lot of time on their knees, and I promise you that guardian angels really do exist.

 

(Yes, that is all chock full of Christian stuff.  It is what it is.  That is part of my story, too.  :) )

[swimmermom3]

Wow. What a story!

 

I do think beautiful young lady will get her head out of her a$$ sooner or later; I told her mother as much. I think she will soon see that two unskilled young people can't just set the world on fire and life is expensive; living with parents who expect you to pay for your phone starts looking pretty easy, I'm thinking.

 

Still...I do hope nothing dreadful happens before the learning curve sorts out, and I'm hurt for her folks.

 

Quill, you said that others who knew the situation weren't nearly as surprised as you. Do you know why?  I feel like there is something missing here. It's one thing to be on track and then fall off the track partying. It's another kettle of fish to party hardy, be given terms by your parents, and respond by moving far away with a guy you may not even really like. It almost has the feel of some kind of crisis and she feels as though she has nothing left to lose. Does that make sense?

 

[Guest]

Quill, you said that others who knew the situation weren't nearly as surprised as you. Do you know why? I feel like there is something missing here. It's one thing to be on track and then fall off the track partying. It's another kettle of fish to party hardy, be given terms by your parents, and respond by moving far away with a guy you may not even really like. It almost has the feel of some kind of crisis and she feels as though she has nothing left to lose. Does that make sense?

 

It does. My DD was one of the ones who said it didn't surprise her. The reason she gave is, "She's a science student at that University (where DD's boyfriend is a science student). I could see that she was partying all the time and figured there was no way she could make adequate grades in that program with the drinking she was doing." dH was another one who didn't think it surprising, more from a cynical standpoint of, "It's not rare; she's a gorgeous girl and probably likes being a popular party guest."

 

I do have a lot of curiosity in my head as to exactly how the scene went down, because I recognize I'm only getting the mother's version of how it played out. I do know that when she was applying to colleges, she fervently wanted to be in a different climate, and applied to several colleges FAR away; colleges my friend was not pleased about (due to location and high prices). In the end, though, she seemed to embrace the IS school, was happy she was going there.

 

I have a notion that friend might have reacted more harshly than necessary; probably in part because she's dealt with errant young adults already. Still, I have nothing on which to base this but hunch. It's part of why I'm asking here; this is part of how I form theories on how to manage situations with which I have no prior experience.

[texasmama]

Since I'm oversharing already ;) ...

 

My first two semesters of college were 1.X GPAs - both of them.  I recently asked my dad why my parents sent me back for a second year (they were paying out of pocket, no scholarships), and he said, "We knew you could do better."  It took me awhile, but I did do better. 

 

Did they do the right thing?  They did for ME.  Given the exact same circumstances, another young adult might need a different approach.  My parents were flying by the seat of their pants, but they did a pretty good job of adjusting their game plan to mine and my brother's needs.  And we made it a regular habit of throwing all sorts of wrenches into the works.  We are both respectable, responsible adults now and have been for a long time.

[madteaparty]

I would be terrified if it was my own child, but then would take some solace by referring back to my DH's path which was a good example of all's well that ends well. There's sometimes detours. Very few things in life are irreversible.

[G5052]

Way back when I was in college, I worked 3 summers as an RA for a dorm of provisional students. They would be admitted full-time if they could get a C or better in 2 summer classes. I'm sure most of them had received plenty of parental input about working hard and making the grades. As their RA, I was very clear in my introductory speech about what it would take to get the grades and what to do if any of them had difficulty and needed help. There were special tutors on campus available to help them. We offered study groups and learning circles. Faculty offered extra office hours and meeting times. We did everything we could think of to help these kids achieve academic success. And yet, after 5 years, the program was discontinued due to such low numbers of students achieving the necessary grades to continue on.

 

IMO, the problem stemmed from the fact that few of these students had actually bought into the relationship between their college education and their future. They saw college as a reward for doing well in high school, not as a launch pad to prepare for their future careers. Excessive partying was rampant. I think most of them had little experience with dealing with negative consequences of their own making and minimal experience with self control and delayed gratification. Several seemed in total disbelief when they failed to meet the grade requirements and were refused admission. I think they really thought either their parents could fix it for them or that the college administration would give them another chance.

 

 

 

This is my world as a community college professor. All of the support and remedial classes in the world aren't going to make a difference if you aren't able to fully immerse yourself and get it done. I say "able" because some of them have such difficult lives outside of school and have never done anything like this. I'm not saying that they can't turn it around, but the odds are so very against them.

 

The reality is that only a small fraction of students in these special programs and the developmental/pre-college math and English actually graduate with a two-year degree. As it is at the local one I work for, only 25% graduate within 5 years with a 2-year degree, and that's one of the highest in the entire state.  Ironically at the same school we always send a dozen or so to one of the "public Ivies" in the state, so there are some really good students too. 

 

I always steel myself for this time of the semester when a fair percentage realize that I expect them to do their homework and that it isn't an easy class.  Right now about 1/4 of my evening section is in that boat. They haven't done much homework at all and are in serious danger of failing.  And then they email me, "Hey prof, why do I have so many zeros? I didn't know we had so much homework in this class."

[Guest]

The reality is that only a small fraction of students in these special programs and the developmental/pre-college math and English actually graduate with a two-year degree. As it is at the local one I work for, only 25% graduate within 5 years with a 2-year degree, and that's one of the highest in the entire state. Ironically at the same school we always send a dozen or so to one of the "public Ivies" in the state, so there are some really good students too.

 

 

I always wonder about CC stats, though, because I attend one. I'm a very on-the-ball student, BUT I can only accomplish this part-time. I am set to graduate with my AA this spring, but I started this journey five years ago. I had to take two non-credit classes to remediate Math - and if I had not been hsing my kids for years already, I am certain I would not have even placed *THAT* well.

 

I guess what I'm (perhaps defensively) saying is that earning a degree in a non-traditional time frame is not an invalid way to earn a degree. Students at CC are by definition attending an alternate path and there are hundreds of valid reasons why this is their course. So in many ways, comparing stats from a lump of CC students to stats from a lump of four-year schools is apples to oranges.

 

That said, I don't deny that some really clueless students have been my classmates over the years. Clearly you're going to have more of them in a college that admits everyone who applies.

[creekland]

I think all of us parents hold our breath when our youngsters leave home.  It doesn't matter if that's for college or the workforce or ______.  Like baby birds, some take to flying right away and others fall to the ground.  There are real dangers when they fall - very real dangers.  We try to help as we can, but even then, sometimes it doesn't work.  Maybe we should have even done something else (we're always rethinking in hindsight).

 

I pray for all of us as our kids launch.  Ditto that with "my" kids at school.

 

What would I do in any given situation?  Pray and make the best choice I can.

 

My kids have never been sheltered (past age appropriate stuff when they were much younger).  We showed them many baby birds that fell and didn't survive - or didn't survive to their potential.  We talked about alcohol, drugs, parties, friends, etc.

 

They know the decisions are theirs.  

 

They know they are ALWAYS welcome back home - regardless of their choices.  They know they do not have to follow our faith, our ethics, or our paths.  They can be themselves.  But they also know their mama and papa bird will always be supporting them as best we can (not necessarily financially, but in spirit).  I can't imagine life any other way.

 

So far I breathe prayers of thanks that they are flying.

[G5052]

I always wonder about CC stats, though, because I attend one. I'm a very on-the-ball student, BUT I can only accomplish this part-time. I am set to graduate with my AA this spring, but I started this journey five years ago. I had to take two non-credit classes to remediate Math - and if I had not been hsing my kids for years already, I am certain I would not have even placed *THAT* well.

 

I guess what I'm (perhaps defensively) saying is that earning a degree in a non-traditional time frame is not an invalid way to earn a degree. Students at CC are by definition attending an alternate path and there are hundreds of valid reasons why this is their course. So in many ways, comparing stats from a lump of CC students to stats from a lump of four-year schools is apples to oranges.

 

That said, I don't deny that some really clueless students have been my classmates over the years. Clearly you're going to have more of them in a college that admits everyone who applies.

 

Yes, certainly there are more part-time students at a community college than most four-year schools.  That's one reason that the state looks at 5-year graduation rates for 2-year degrees.  Somehow they felt that was more reasonable than a 2- or 3-year graduation rate.  But they have to have some measure.  Every community college has to have retention plans that are reviewed at the state level to make sure that they're doing all they can to help their student population.  And each year they have to report graduation rates to show that. They also report what they call "return rates" which show how many students come back after the semester before.

  

The statistics do show that older students tend to be more likely to graduate than the younger ones.  I've posted here before how about half of my dual enrollment students fail my course, versus 10-25% among my high school graduates.  Maturity is a major factor in being successful in college, regardless of the age of the individual.  Of course the majority of my dual enrollment students homeschooled, and that is yet another factor.  Some of them have never taken a test or had deadlines.

 

The community colleges do have a very important role though, and I enjoy being part of that. Having open door admissions is part of that mission, even if some students maybe shouldn't be there at that time. That's tough to really know who is ready and who isn't from the outside.  Ultimately the individual has to work that out.

[MBM]

It's interesting that your friend's daughter said she would never have kids. She doesn't seem to have a positive view about child rearing (for now).

 

I have a sneaky suspicion the daughter has felt controlled and unheard at times while growing up, but I also think she feels safe enough to behave defiantly and believes her parents will take her back at some point. If I were a parent in that situation, I would definitely take her in again and let her begin anew. Adolescence can be a messy period of discovery.