If retail employees are wearing religious messages

[LucyStoner]

When did voicing an opinion in a plain and honest way on this board become "bullying"?

 

If someone wants people to see that being opposed to homosexuality isn't hate it's ironic that they use the same thought process to see bullying at every turn.

[albeto.]

The word "hate" used to shut people up in a discussion = bullying IMO.

 

Nevertheless, people who are marginalized by the loving policies of people who seek to deny them certain rights equal to others, may find the word "hateful" rather convenient. In any case, should an employee inspire such a possible interpretation to one of the ever so few people who don't much care to be denied equal access to rights and privileges under the law for not being sufficiently ashamed and secretive of their own personal business, you can see that it might make sense to confuse this compassion with hate, can't you? From the perspective of the misguided anyway?

[AimeeM]

No, I wouldn't assume that one employee wearing a religious display is indicative of the entire story promoting that same religion.

[Mommy22alyns]

Strictly answering OP and no tangents:

 

I would assume it only reflected the employee's personal beliefs unless merchandise or other employees indicated otherwise.

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Didn't read all the other posts yet.

 

No, I wouldn't assume it's representative of the business.  I would assume the business owner respects freedom of speech, even when it comes to employee clothing.  I would not assume the business owner is even religious at all.  That being said, I think it's OK for business owners to expect at least business casual dress of their employees and shirts with writing on them doesn't fit that category. It's up to the owner.

 

It wouldn't bother me at all if an employee where I shopped were wearing a strongly worded religious message from a religion I completely disagree with in all aspects. I'm not fussy or upset by different views dogmatically stated. I hate "thought police" and "wording/tone police." Not everything has to be stated according to personality preferences, love language, my cultural norms or according to my learning style.  I don't expect anyone to care what color my parachute is or whether or not my love tank is full.   If someone wants to be blunt, crass or dogmatic, it's on them.  I don't have to let it bother me because I'm responsible for myself and my feelings. I'm perfectly OK with responding back and disagreeing or with ignoring it.

 

I'm a very conservative devout Christian who is also registered Libertarian in case readers are wondering where I come down on religious or political issues.

[Haiku]

I am still wondering how the average person would even know about a particular business owner's personal beliefs. 

 

I think that's kinda the point. Most people do not inject their own personal religious/political/social beliefs into their businesses because they know that's bad business.

 

The ones who do must feel very strongly about the issues they make noise about. And if it's an issue I care about and they make their opinion quite plain and I don't support their opinion, then they have basically invited me to stop shopping there. So I will.

 

I don't go around hunting out people's personal beliefs simply so I can then avoid them. When they shove them in my face, well, they get what they asked for.

 

As vocal as I am here about the things I believe in, I don't make a habit of broadcasting my opinions to the public. I don't like it when I feel shouted down, so I try not to do that to others. It's different here, in some respects, because discussion boards exist so that we can discuss. In general, having the types of conversations in which we routinely engage here are TWTM with random strangers in public is not appropriate, imo.

 

I remember once being at a park day with our inclusive homeschool group. A very religious group was also there, and they loudly and stridently made clear that they didn't approve of our differing beliefs. I didn't like how that felt, and I remember that when I am in public. I don't go around ranting my pinko lefty liberal Buddhist vegan homeschooling transracial adoptive beliefs. Unless I am asked. ;)

[Luanne]

This is a tangent, but I feel the need to say it.... just because you don't agree with someone else's lifestyle, doesn't mean you are hateful.  I have never treated anyone with anything but respect regardless of what they believe or how they choose to live their life. 

[BrookValley.]

I really don't understand this logic at all.

 

You:  I don't believe in same-sex marriage. My faith teaches that homosexual relationships are sin.

 

LGBTQ person: Well, I was born this way. How is that wrong? And I'm not a member of your religion, so I don't believe it's a sin.

 

You: well, it's ok, just as long as you don't act on it. It's not you, it's how you behave.

 

LGBTQ person: So I am expected to live without having a complete relationship with a person I'm attracted to? I can't have the same kind of relationship that heterosexuals do, because of how I was born?

 

You: Acting on it is immoral. Because I feel this is a moral issue, I speak out/preach against/vote against/etc. same-sex marriage.

 

LGBTQ person: Oh. Well, that really makes me feel like dirt. Why would you work against me being able to marry the person I love? I'm really hurt by that. It feels hateful. It makes me feel like less of a person.

 

You: BULLY!

[LucyStoner]

This is a tangent, but I feel the need to say it.... just because you don't agree with someone else's lifestyle, doesn't mean you are hateful. I have never treated anyone with anything but respect regardless of what they believe or how they choose to live their life.

Personally, I suppose this is true for a lot of people.

 

Politically though anti-LGBTQ advocates have advanced an agenda that:

 

-prevents people from accessing equal protection under the law for their families. This has far reaching financial, civil and social implications.

-would bar gay families from adopting children.

-allow non-religious employers to fire employees based on their sexual orientation.

 

The personal is political.

 

The only people who I really accept the "love the dinner, hate the sin" argument from are those who readily admit that their religious beliefs should not be the basis for public policy on the lives of other people and their families.

 

ETA- sinner, dinner, glimmer, shimmer. :P

[Slartibartfast]

The word "hate" used to shut people up in a discussion = bullying IMO.

 

And at what point is it bullying to marginalize an entire group of people?

 

Is it bullying for large corporations to donate money to ban someone the same rights everyone else has?

 

Is it bullying to refuse to listen to every bit of scientific data that states that you were born a certain way?

 

It is bullying for people with 57 children and an anti-woman agenda to compare you to a pedophile?

 

Give me a break!

 

I don't know how a thread about a tshirt de-evolved into gay marriage but at some point the people constantly arguing to create a special class of individuals and label them as less deserving of equal rights are actually the ones doing the bullying.

[Haiku]

"love the dinner, hate the sin"

Words to live by. :D

[Little Nyssa]

Back to OP again:

I would think that either 1. the owner agrees with the statement, or 2. the owner is clueless.

 

We all make choices about where we shop based on how much we like the place, and many things may factor into that, including our perception of religious and political views. I think that is perfectly reasonable and not hateful at all.

 

I also think that is completely reasonable for a business owner to use a place of business as a platform for their own beliefs, and many do, on many sides of many issues. Why not? They are free to do so, and the rest of us are free to choose to shop there or not.

 

Recently DH and I were sad because we decided we wouldn't patronize one of our favorite coffeehouses anymore... it was a nice place, and the folks who work there are lovable characters... and the food is organic and gourmet... but they have put up a bunch of cartoons near where you order which were very offensive to us-- think Charlie Hebdo type thing-- against our religion. I was so shocked I actually teared up. Some time before that, we had not had a pleasant time there because a waitress was loudly discussing her private life using all kinds of bad language, (and it's a small place so there was no way to ignore this) but at that time I spoke to the manager and told him politely why we were leaving early and that we enjoyed his place and we'd certainly be back another time. He said he'd ask her to tone it down. But I kind of felt i had used up my chips complaining. It seemed to me that these cartoons, from their placement, did represent the opinion of the management. I don't object to them having different opinions that me. That is their right. But having that stuff right in my face makes me unhappy and so I can't enjoy my nice coffee. I might someday go back and say something, but for now I felt that any comment might provoke a rant which I'm not interested in hearing. I felt disappointed that the place we liked, actually is not welcoming for us.

 

So I think that there must be a way for business owners to express themselves without driving away their customers, unless of course they want to drive away certain of us.

[Catwoman]

Back to OP again:

I would think that either 1. the owner agrees with the statement, or 2. the owner is clueless.

 

We all make choices about where we shop based on how much we like the place, and many things may factor into that, including our perception of religious and political views. I think that is perfectly reasonable and not hateful at all.

 

I also think that is completely reasonable for a business owner to use a place of business as a platform for their own beliefs, and many do, on many sides of many issues. Why not? They are free to do so, and the rest of us are free to choose to shop there or not.

 

Recently DH and I were sad because we decided we wouldn't patronize one of our favorite coffeehouses anymore... it was a nice place, and the folks who work there are lovable characters... and the food is organic and gourmet... but they have put up a bunch of cartoons near where you order which were very offensive to us-- think Charlie Hebdo type thing-- against our religion. I was so shocked I actually teared up. Some time before that, we had not had a pleasant time there because a waitress was loudly discussing her private life using all kinds of bad language, (and it's a small place so there was no way to ignore this) but at that time I spoke to the manager and told him politely why we were leaving early and that we enjoyed his place and we'd certainly be back another time. He said he'd ask her to tone it down. But I kind of felt i had used up my chips complaining. It seemed to me that these cartoons, from their placement, did represent the opinion of the management. I don't object to them having different opinions that me. That is their right. But having that stuff right in my face makes me unhappy and so I can't enjoy my nice coffee. I might someday go back and say something, but for now I felt that any comment might provoke a rant which I'm not interested in hearing. I felt disappointed that the place we liked, actually is not welcoming for us.

 

So I think that there must be a way for business owners to express themselves without driving away their customers, unless of course they want to drive away certain of us.

I think you are doing the right thing by not going there any more. The owners certainly knew what they were posting, and they had to realize that those images would offend some of their customers, so as far as I'm concerned, it's their own fault if they lose customers as a result.

 

Had they simply kept their beliefs private, you never would have known about them and would still be going there. Now you have a different image of them, and it makes sense that you would prefer not to give them any more of your business.

[LucyStoner]

Words to live by. :D

Best typo I've made today!

[ocelotmom]

 "love the dinner, hate the sin" 

 

I'm picturing a fabulous restaurant run by gay people :)

[LucyStoner]

I don't get why employees being told to wear a shirt without any messages on it could be impinging religious freedom. At a certain point you just expect common sense. I am a consultant/contractor and don't have any dress code obviously. No one cares what my shirt says so long as I can help them raise, account for and manage money. But even then, if I am headed to meet a client or a potential client I change my clothes. I am very casual in my aesthetic and that works for my clients but a solid colored shirt seems like a total no brainer for me. Yesterday before I left to meet a client I changed out of a math t-shirt and into a gray shirt. No one would be offended by a shirt with a math problem on it but the image I project matters. I would assume most employees would like to get ahead at work. You get ahead by being in tune with what will impress the people who pay you.

[SKL]

I really don't understand this logic at all.

 

You:  I don't believe in same-sex marriage. My faith teaches that homosexual relationships are sin.

 

LGBTQ person: Well, I was born this way. How is that wrong? And I'm not a member of your religion, so I don't believe it's a sin.

 

You: well, it's ok, just as long as you don't act on it. It's not you, it's how you behave.

 

LGBTQ person: So I am expected to live without having a complete relationship with a person I'm attracted to? I can't have the same kind of relationship that heterosexuals do, because of how I was born?

 

You: Acting on it is immoral. Because I feel this is a moral issue, I speak out/preach against/vote against/etc. same-sex marriage.

 

LGBTQ person: Oh. Well, that really makes me feel like dirt. Why would you work against me being able to marry the person I love? I'm really hurt by that. It feels hateful. It makes me feel like less of a person.

 

You: BULLY!

 

No, it's more like:

 

Straight Person A:  "The law needs to change to allow same sex marriage.  Any decent person would agree.  Your turn!"

Person B:  "I think marriage is between a man and a woman."

Straight Person A:  "That's hate you are spewing."

Person B:  "If I'm not allowed to state an opinion, that's bullying."

[EmilyGF]

Every retail place I worked had such strict guidelines on dress code that this in incomprehensible to me... Requirements as to earring size, skirt length, etc.

 

Emily

[TranquilMind]

 I wouldn't assume a strongly messaged t-shirt only reflects the wearer's personal views because employees represent their place of employment. It's part of a traditional code of conduct that I grew up with - you reflect the image you wish to promote as a business or service.

 

But when you reference "tolerance, live and let live, and all that," history shows these things don't happen until there's significant push back against the traditional oppressors. Knowing that people I care about are being ostracized, and blamed for imaginary crimes makes me feel bad. Knowing that people I love are treated differently formally and informally because of unreasonable, irrational, hateful ideas makes me feel bad. They're not allowed to live and let live because tolerance is assumed to exist within a certain parameter that excludes things about, and important to them. To me. I sympathize with them because they're being unjustly treated. Live and let live only so long as you don't exceed your comfort zone? That's not nice, even if the person promoting these ideals think they are a nice person in general. So when someone advertises that message, I notice. If an employee of a retail store regularly conveys that message, I would assume that's part of the image the employer wishes to promote.

Yeah, yeah (insert appropriate political rebuttal here).

 

But ...so what?  Whether one employee is wearing a shirt with a message you abhor (any Christian message, for you) or a team of 10 employees are wearing them, does that make a difference in your shopping?  Will you walk out if you see someone wearing a T-shirt you dislike?   

 

Do you select your stores/places of business on the basis of the political or religious beliefs of the employees?  

 

I don't.  I go where the price is the best and the service is good, so long as we aren't talking about the "Ku Klux Klan Burgers" or someplace overtly and intentionally divisive. 

[Slartibartfast]

No, it's more like:

 

Straight Person A: "The law needs to change to allow same sex marriage. Any decent person would agree. Your turn!"

Person B: "I think marriage is between a man and a woman."

Straight Person A: "That's hate you are spewing."

Person B: "If I'm not allowed to state an opinion, that's bullying."

So you being able to say what you like trumps someone else's ability to marry?

[Joanne]

No, it's more like:

 

Straight Person A:  "The law needs to change to allow same sex marriage.  Any decent person would agree.  Your turn!"

Person B:  "I think marriage is between a man and a woman."

Straight Person A:  "That's hate you are spewing."

Person B:  "If I'm not allowed to state an opinion, that's bullying."

 

 

1. That is not how the conversation happens.
2. You can "think marriage is between a man and a woman" and simply stay out of marriage for others.
3. It ignores the reality of the humans who report ***hate*** based on religious conservatives and other homophobic people. Of course, some can't report except posthumously.

[Slartibartfast]

Every retail place I worked had such strict guidelines on dress code that this in incomprehensible to me... Requirements as to earring size, skirt length, etc.

 

Emily

Exactly. Companies usually have dress codes for a reason. This is one of those reasons.

 

Even the most relaxed, tattoo displaying, crazy hair color wearing, facial piercing accepting company would have something to say about political messages on clothing.

[hornblower]

I'm torn on this issue about choosing not to shop in stores owned by people I disagree with.

 

I live in a very multicultural city and I like that for the most part, there isn't a lot of 'balkanization'. [i say for the most part because there are pretty persistent complaints about a certain suburb/region being unfriendly to people not from that cultural/linguistic background, to the extent that all the signs are only in that language which results in other people not feeling welcome in the malls and shops there.... ]

I have not experienced this myself and in fact mostly I've experienced the opposite. 

I have really liked that fact that I can visit all sorts of shops & businesses and for various food items, housewares, clothing etc.  Odds are overwhelming that many of these folks have quite different views about all sorts of things - even things which I think very strongly about. 

I guess at some level, I hope that our civil interactions in the business realm are providing a safe way for all us to coexist and find a way to all live in this vibrant, multicultural city.

[BrookValley.]

<snip>

 

I don't know how a thread about a tshirt de-evolved into gay marriage but at some point the people constantly arguing to create a special class of individuals and label them as less deserving of equal rights are actually the ones doing the bullying.

 

We're really good at turning lots of things into discussion about gay marriage around here. :laugh:

 

I know I've been vague about the message, but I promise y'all, it has nothing whatsoever to do with gay marriage. The closest I can come to describing it is "my way is the only way."

[Joanne]

Yeah, yeah (insert appropriate political rebuttal here).

 

But ...so what?  Whether one employee is wearing a shirt with a message you abhor (any Christian message, for you) or a team of 10 employees are wearing them, does that make a difference in your shopping?  Will you walk out if you see someone wearing a T-shirt you dislike?   

 

Do you select your stores/places of business on the basis of the political or religious beliefs of the employees?  

 

I don't.  I go where the price is the best and the service is good, so long as we aren't talking about the "Ku Klux Klan Burgers" or someplace overtly and intentionally divisive. 

 

The bold is offensive and inaccurate. I'm sure albeto doesn't "hate any Christian message" and I'm sure albeto indeed hates a variety of messages.

 

There are many "Christian messages" that I'm chill with. There are many other "messages" I don't - the list is certainly not limited to Christianity or even religion.

The bold italics is, again, an example of mis-reading. Blatant, divisive, and contentious opinions featured on employees implies the owner or management is ok (at minimum) with the message. It's not reduced to "political beliefs of the employees."

 

I would (and have, and do) avoid business such as Chik-Fil-A and Hobby Lobby due to the active policies of the companies. Or, in earlier years, Nestle.

[TranquilMind]

 

 

I do have friends with different stances on this issue due to religion, but they're not out there actively working against it, and they are never rude or hurtful to my dd, ever. So I wouldn't call them hateful at all.

Well, if this is your definition of "not hateful", then almost all of us would be included in that, because most people are not out there actively working against anything. 

[Guest]

I could be mistaken, but I thought Jinnah was speaking in more general terms about avoiding a business simply because the owner was Christian who didn't personally support gay marriage, not that she meant that the business that had obviously inflammatory messages posted in the store.

 

I am still wondering how the average person would even know about a particular business owner's personal beliefs. And I have never gone into a store and seen anti-gay or anti-religion or pro-religion messages posted in public view. It is a complete non-issue where I live. Obviously, it would be different in a store that sells religious products, but I would expect that before I entered the store.

 

Exactly.  

 

Also, I don't think any of the known Christian businesses (that do not support gay marriage) have said hateful things about homosexuals (at least I hope not) or incited hate in some way.  They don't tell those who disagree with them not to shop there, they don't refuse service to people based on that, etc.   On the other hand, if I am recalling correctly, Starbucks has said they do support gay marriage and anyone who doesn't SHOULD NOT shop there.

[TranquilMind]

The bold is offensive and inaccurate. I'm sure albeto doesn't "hate any Christian message" and I'm sure albeto indeed hates a variety of messages.

 

There are many "Christian messages" that I'm chill with. There are many other "messages" I don't - the list is certainly not limited to Christianity or even religion.

The bold italics is, again, an example of mis-reading. Blatant, divisive, and contentious opinions featured on employees implies the owner or management is ok (at minimum) with the message. It's not reduced to "political beliefs of the employees."

 

I would (and have, and do) avoid business such as Chik-Fil-A and Hobby Lobby due to the active policies of the companies. Or, in earlier years, Nestle.

I have known albeto on multiple fora for what, a decade? 

 

 I think it is fair to say that she objects vehemently (now, post 2008 or so) to Christianity, as she understands it. 

 

If she refutes it, then fine. 

[SKL]

I don't get why employees being told to wear a shirt without any messages on it could be impinging religious freedom. At a certain point you just expect common sense. I am a consultant/contractor and don't have any dress code obviously. No one cares what my shirt says so long as I can help them raise, account for and manage money. But even then, if I am headed to meet a client or a potential client I change my clothes. I am very casual in my aesthetic and that works for my clients but a solid colored shirt seems like a total no brainer for me. Yesterday before I left to meet a client I changed out of a math t-shirt and into a gray shirt. No one would be offended by a shirt with a math problem on it but the image I project matters. I would assume most employees would like to get ahead at work. You get ahead by being in tune with what will impress the people who pay you.

 

I don't think anyone is saying it impinges religious freedom to have a dress code as you describe.

 

But there are employers who don't have that kind of dress code.  And that's OK too.

 

There are jobs in which words on a T-shirt are not going to hold one back, assuming those words don't provoke a fistfight or worse.

 

[Guest]

No. Plenty of Christians run businesses that don't publicly support hate groups. Not all Christians have extreme beliefs and/or support the government legislating their personal views.

 

OP, I would definitely notice a divisive message and would assume the owner approved of the message. If I had the same experience twice, I would shop elsewhere.

 

It's not extreme beliefs to think marriage is between one man and one woman.  It's not extreme to disagree with gay marriage.  

 

Publicly supporting hate groups??  Really??  This is exactly what I was talking about earlier.  Not agreeing with gay marriage is NOT HATE.  Calling it so is just a bullying tactic to get people to be quiet out of fear of being called a hater.  

[TranquilMind]

It's not having the views, it's advertising the more divisive views in a business setting.

 

Obviously, one cannot find out - nor would wish to find out! - the personal views of every worker in every shop, everywhere. That would be crazy.

 

This tangent is in the context of workers allowed to expressive divisive messages to potential customers with the managers/owners permission. Meaning that a reasonable assumption can be made that the business supports a position on said divisive issue.

Well, that is one possibility.  Or the boss is completely clueless.

 

I'm a detail person.

 

My husband would not remember anything I wore in a week, for example, if I asked him in advance to memorize it .

 

We don't know what kind of boss runs the place. 

[TranquilMind]

I also said they are not rude or hurtful in any way to my dd, and that includes being respectful of her needs regardless of whether or not they fit in with their theology. I have some really good Christian friends who live by Christ's example.

 

IRL I don't hear even half of what I hear on these boards, thank goodness.

Well, that's great.

 

Glad to hear it.

 

I sometimes think boards are for some (not all) people to say what they would never say in real life. 

 

Others are pretty much the same person no matter where you find them. 

[TranquilMind]

I'd imagine they'd lose lots of customers if everyone opposed to gay marriage would refrain from buying their coffee, in the US at least.

Starbucks is still slogging along (even taking into account their burned, overly strong coffee!). 

[Word Nerd]

 

I do feel it's intolerance for a person to boycott a business based off of religious beliefs.  

 

There are a few companies that will never to my knowledge get a dollar from me because of their policies or positions on various issues. I can tolerate their right to hold opinions that I do not share even if I refuse to support them and opt to shop elsewhere. (I don't believe tolerance is a virtue anyway—it's neutral, and whether it's good or bad depends on what is being tolerated—but that's a side issue.)

[Guest]

The word "hate" used to shut people up in a discussion = bullying IMO.

 

Just read this after saying pretty much the same thing.  Call Christians haters for not supporting gay marriage.  Call them bigots.  Call them intolerant.  Well, I think it's hateful, intolerant, and bigoted to avoid a Christian business because they vote against gay marriage (or whatever the issue is here... I've not seen hate messages on their shirts).  

[TranquilMind]

In the op-shop case where this comes up IRL for me, yes I do know the views of the church involved.

 

As said before - long before! - one t-shirt I might overlook. Two, and I'd be asking if the manager/owner supported the divisive view.

 

Jeez. Suit yourself if you like to think of me as boycotting everyone I see in a WWJD t-0shirt. The reality is slightly more nuanced.

 

And now I'm done.

Seriously, you really would go ASK the manager if you saw two employees wearing a T-shirt you found objectionable?

 

I just wouldn't take the time, unless the T-shirts were really awful, like, "Let's kill all the (fill in the blank)"

[TranquilMind]

lol, no. It just means I chose my friends wisely. They are Catholic and Orthodox, for the most part. Evangelicals tend not to keep me on their friend list, and the favour is returned.

If by evangelicals, you mean those who are supposed to spread the Good News, Catholic and Orthodox would be included, though in practice, they go about it differently.

 

No one is a Christian who does not understand and partake in some way in the Great Commission.

 

And you are missing out, by narrowly choosing your friends. 

[goldberry]

 

I do feel it's intolerance for a person to boycott a business based off of religious beliefs.  

 

 

 

It's okay for a business providing a public service to refuse such service to someone based on religious beliefs, but intolerant for a consumer with no obligation to the business whatsoever to choose not to shop there because of religious beliefs?

 

I am not saying wrong or right here, but those two views are contradictory.

 

ETA, if the first part of that is not your view, then please correct me and I will happily apologize.

 

 

Sorry, deleted my little minion because I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

[Guest]

 

1. That is not how the conversation happens.
2. You can "think marriage is between a man and a woman" and simply stay out of marriage for others.
3. It ignores the reality of the humans who report ***hate*** based on religious conservatives and other homophobic people. Of course, some can't report except posthumously.

 

 

 

Can we not do that?  

[SKL]

So you being able to say what you like trumps someone else's ability to marry?

 

It's an opinion just like every other opinion.  I didn't even say it was *my* opinion.

 

My opinion FWIW is that I don't care one way or the other, except that I don't want wealth to be forcibly transferred from single people to couples just because they are in a sexual relationship.  If that doesn't happen then I'm good.  But I won't be marching in any marches or donating to any causes for or against same sex marriage.  I don't believe "the right to marry" is a priority.

 

And I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it.  And if one side is going to bring it up, the other side should be allowed to use civil language to state their opinion too.  Neither side should be demonized for stating an opinion in a discussion such as this.

 

Face to face is a whole different issue.  Very few people would go up to someone and put them down.  Not for being gay, or straight, or Muslim, or Catholic, fat, or skinny, or poor, or rich.  People who would do that are jerks regardless of the issue IMO.

[Slartibartfast]

It's not extreme beliefs to think marriage is between one man and one woman.  It's not extreme to disagree with gay marriage.  

 

Publicly supporting hate groups??  Really??  This is exactly what I was talking about earlier.  Not agreeing with gay marriage is NOT HATE.  Calling it so is just a bullying tactic to get people to be quiet out of fear of being called a hater.  

 

Did you ask a gay person if it seems hateful to them?

 

Have you ever felt suicidal because people said you were being hateful for not liking gay marriage? Have you ever been depressed because people said you were being hateful to gay people? Have you ever felt you couldn't go on because people were saying you were being hateful to gays?

 

You really should not use that argument, and I would really you recommend you don't use it in public, it doesn't make you look good.

[Slartibartfast]

It's an opinion just like every other opinion.  I didn't even say it was *my* opinion.

 

My opinion FWIW is that I don't care one way or the other, except that I don't want wealth to be forcibly transferred from single people to couples just because they are in a sexual relationship.  If that doesn't happen then I'm good.  But I won't be marching in any marches or donating to any causes for or against same sex marriage.  I don't believe "the right to marry" is a priority.

 

And I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it.  And if one side is going to bring it up, the other side should be allowed to use civil language to state their opinion too.  Neither side should be demonized for stating an opinion in a discussion such as this.

 

Face to face is a whole different issue.  Very few people would go up to someone and put them down.  Not for being gay, or straight, or Muslim, or Catholic, fat, or skinny, or poor, or rich.  People who would do that are jerks regardless of the issue IMO.

 

What do you mean wealth transfer because they are in a sexual relationship? Can you explain that further?

[Slartibartfast]

dbl post 

 

[SKL]

 

1. That is not how the conversation happens.
2. You can "think marriage is between a man and a woman" and simply stay out of marriage for others.
3. It ignores the reality of the humans who report ***hate*** based on religious conservatives and other homophobic people. Of course, some can't report except posthumously.

 

 

1. Actually, what you quoted is exactly what happened here in this thread.

2. And you can think "marriage is whatever it is in your opinion" and stay out of marriage for others.  What is your point?  That Person B stating an opinion on WTM is stopping someone from being married?  I guess that means the opposite comments are causing same-sex marriages to legally happen, then.

3. No, if you noticed I was responding to your comment that people who advocate for SSM view the comment "marriage is between a man and a woman" as hate.  Not to your second comment that some people in the gay community *experience* hate, which is a different point and I don't deny that.  The fact that some gay people experience hate does not mean anyone who doesn't agree with their every wish is a hater.

[Guest]

Jinnah! Go and read my posts on this page.

 

Mountains are being made out of molehills here.

 

Sadie, that wasn't meant for you.  :)  It was for another poster who likes to insist Christians who do not support gay marriage are extreme and incite hate. 

[Guest]

 

 

It's okay for a business providing a public service to refuse such service to someone based on religious beliefs, but intolerant for a consumer with no obligation to the business whatsoever to choose not to shop there because of religious beliefs?

 

I am not saying wrong or right here, but those two views are contradictory.

 

ETA, if the first part of that is not your view, then please correct me and I will happily apologize.

 

 

I think if a person were to avoid every business where the person was a Christian (because the majority of Christians do not support gay marriage... that can be googled)... well, yes, that's ridiculous.  Boycotting them for having religious views they do not agree with seems pretty intolerant to me.  Now, if they are being completely rude and offensive to people... like ACTUALLY displaying HATE toward someone, well, boycott away.

[Guest]

Did you ask a gay person if it seems hateful to them?

 

Have you ever felt suicidal because people said you were being hateful for not liking gay marriage? Have you ever been depressed because people said you were being hateful to gay people? Have you ever felt you couldn't go on because people were saying you were being hateful to gays?

 

You really should not use that argument, and I would really you recommend you don't use it in public, it doesn't make you look good.

 

Are you being serious?  Maybe I am misunderstanding... please explain which argument I shouldn't be using.  And, please, lets refrain from the personal attacks.  It's hateful.

[TranquilMind]

There are different ways to express opposition. 

 

This is hatred: http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/04/04/god-hates-fags-america%E2%80%99s-most-hated-family-in-crisis/

 

Simply saying your church opposes gay marriage is not necessarily hatred.

Yep. 

[Guest]

There are different ways to express opposition. 

 

This is hatred: http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/04/04/god-hates-fags-america%E2%80%99s-most-hated-family-in-crisis/

 

Simply saying your church opposes gay marriage is not necessarily hatred.

 

 

Yes!!  There is an example!  I didn't read the article, just looked at the first picture.  That is hateful.  If a business was doing that, boycott it.  I would avoid them, myself, because that is cruel.

[Joanne]

I don't think anyone is saying it impinges religious freedom to have a dress code as you describe.

 

But there are employers who don't have that kind of dress code.  And that's OK too.

 

There are jobs in which words on a T-shirt are not going to hold one back, assuming those words don't provoke a fistfight or worse.

 

 

 

Sure, it's ok. It's allowed and legal.

 

It's also probably poor business to allow divisive, politicized t-shirts and jewelry in a mainstream, pubic, business.

 

And it's "ok" for patrons to decide not to patron the establishment.

 

No rights or freedoms are being bullied: the employee wears what they want, the patron can decide if that is important "enough" to them, and the business owner accepts the consequences.

 

Free freaking enterprise.