Tsuga Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 My daughter (8) invited a couple of friends over. Then I realized her step-sister was going to be in a little show nearby and I told the friends that we'd be going as part of the play-date. I know that's not ideal but we have four kids and if we wait for nobody to have anything going on they'd all be pretty bored watching one another. One mom wrote me back the next day and said she'd had to re-schedule an appointment that day. Oh well, we'll see her later, thanks for letting me know. Then my step-daughter told me that the performance was on a different day and somehow there was a mix-up on the calendar, and so we will not be going during the play-date. Great. I told the mom of the girl who was still coming. The following day my daughter comes home and says that so-and-so said she didn't really have an appointment, but just didn't want to see step-daughter perform. My daughter explained that it was a mistake and that we wouldn't go to the show after all. Now my daughter wants me to re-invite. Now, I totally get not wanting to go to a little show. I'm also going to assume that the mom was not lying but that it was a mix-up, possibly both not wanting to see the performance as well as an appointment. I'm certainly not going to call her out on a possible fib. How awkward. But the little girl wants to be invited. I really do hope this was just the daughter's misunderstanding of the appointment situation. But it is totally feasible that they fibbed to get out of something "politely" like the little girl said. And if that is the case, it would have been so much better just to be honest. Then she could have had the play-date when we learned of the mistake, AND known that I'm a person who's not easily offended. Instead, given that I don't really know the full situation I just have all this contradictory information to gloss over when trying to form a polite parent-acquaintance relationship. This is kind of a JAWM... I'm not really looking for advice since I plan to continue assuming the best and we'll re-invite etc. But you don't have to JAWM. I still am not really going to listen to any advice suggesting that, for example, I should spend mental energy trying to read people's minds. That's just not going to happen. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I don't think you should try to read people's minds. But honestly I think it is expecting too much to hope that people with be honest with you about something like not wanting to see your step-daughter perform. Telling a white lie in that situation IMO is perfectly fine-or better yet not giving a reason. And honestly if my friend had cancelled under similar circumstances, I would have assumed they were lying about the appointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 See, that kind of lie being fine and OK is exactly why I detest social stuff. "White" lies are supposed to be lies that avoid hurting the other person, but IME at least 75% of them are told to make the speaker feel better, when it would be preferable for the lie-ee to know the truth. (Oops,is my Aspie showing? :lol: ) I think you are wise not to spend too much energy on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think you should have rescheduled the playdate right away when you found out about the play. A playdate is really about having fun playing together, not watching a sibling perform. I think it probably put the mom who fibbed in an awkward situation when you changed it after the fact. Were you going to drive or walk to the performance? Some people are uncomfortable with other drivers. This is just an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I've always found it better to tell the truth or tell nothing. Nothing is my preferred out when I need one. That way I have less to try to remember. ;) I can't think of the last time I purposely lied about something - even a white lie. I'd rather not get a reputation as someone who can't be trusted. It's tough to overcome that. It's easier to redirect. Besides, I'm not quick thinking enough to pretend to have an appt when I don't. I'm not sure "nothing" would have made your situation any different though. "I'm sorry we're not going to be able to make it after all" would still leave that friend not coming without knowing things changed on your end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I don't disagree with your point, but I wouldn't have wanted to go to the play, either, and would have come up with an excuse, even is the appointment were one with my TV or a good book. School programs are not really interesting to anyone who doesn't have to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Sometimes not telling the truth is polite. However, when done in the manner described the person who lied should not do as the invitee and ask to be invited again. That removes any effort to have been polite, because she just came out and said she didn't want to go. That was a manners lesson her mother forgot to include when she called in the excuse. If I were in the position of the OP I would have cancelled the play date. Besides attending a play, I don't like to spring on people that I'm going to drive their dc somewhere. I assume the original plan involved no driving. A lot of people don't like putting their dc (and possibly car seats) in other vehicles. If I invite some to an outing that involves me driving I tell the group upfront. Additionally, getting to, from, and the actually may have taken most/all of the play date. How is that a chance for the child and her friends to socialize? If we had to attend a child's play I'm might tell another of my dc they can invite a friend to go with them, but that's a different scenario. In this case the person who backed out should not have lied because she didn't understand that in backing out she wouldn't be able to change without revealing her lie and thus no longer being polite, but the change in plans made the situation awkward for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The other mother might have been afraid that telling the truth would put you in a bad spot. Once when my son was young, he was invited to a birthday party where the birthday boy was receiving Halo and they were going to stay up all night playing it. I had a longstanding rule that my son could not play rated M games, so I told the truth. I even offered to bring him to the party but pick him up before they started playing. The parents were very upset because having my son there was so important to the birthday boy. They ended up changing the whole party at the last minute to accommodate my uptight standards. I felt so bad about causing them so much chaos. I felt like I had been very rude. I think it would have been more kind if I had just called and said that Ds would not be attending because we are all puking our brains out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I agree with the others who said you should have rescheduled the play date. No one really wants to go watch someone's event instead of the play date, no matter how short it may have been. Simply leaving to go and come back cuts into the playdate. Plus, if I were the invited kid, I'd feel like you'd rather do the event, and my presence is not all that important to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm not sure "nothing" would have made your situation any different though. "I'm sorry we're not going to be able to make it after all" would still leave that friend not coming without knowing things changed on your end. I see fifty shades of grey truth-telling here. Saying, "Sorry, we have to visit a sick friend," when there is no sick friend is less truthful than "Sorry we have another appointment," or "Sorry, we can't make it after all," but the latter two are still not true. You *can* make it, you just don't want to. Saying you have another appointment might actually be more true then saying you can't make it. It could be an appointment with your book. Anyway, I think you're right that in this case, the only thing that would have worked is the actual truth which is, "Sorry, my daughter doesn't really want to go to show, but she'd love to get together another time." (Assuming she did want to get together another time 😄.) I would feel fine saying that to a few of my friends that I know well, but I would probably go for one of the vague excuses if I didn't know the other mom well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I wouldn't reinvite. That's all I have to say. It isn't your issue that the parent fibbed about her appointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see fifty shades of grey truth-telling here. Saying, "Sorry, we have to visit a sick friend," when there is no sick friend is less truthful than "Sorry we have another appointment," or "Sorry, we can't make it after all," but the latter two are still not true. You *can* make it, you just don't want to. Saying you have another appointment might actually be more true then saying you can't make it. It could be an appointment with your book. Perhaps you are correct with that. Maybe it is my version of white lies since I'm not creative enough to come up with appts or sick friends. ;) But I also think the full truth is not always helpful. When I tutor math and a kid comes to me telling me s/he is terrible at doing this type of problem in math it's not at all helpful to agree with them - even after I do a quick knowledge check. It's far better to say something to the effect of, "Oh I don't know about that. I just see a few gaps we need to work on." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Strawberry Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see nothing wrong with the other parent saying, thank you for the invite, but I am not comfortable with my child attending xyz. Let's reschedule when we are all free. I would be happy to host in your place. White lies are not polite. Lying is dishonest and cowardly. Lying doesn't benefit the listener. It provides the teller with an out for an uncomfortable situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 If my children go to a visit to someones house, I prefer that they not transport my children elsewhere to watch a show, without it being the original purpose of the visit. I probably would not have wanted my child to go to that show, but I might not have had the courage to tell you I don't want my child to go. There are so many factors that play in to this. She might not have wanted her in the car, at that show, out of town or wherever, etc. I would let it go. And in the future, not try to take this particular little girl to a show like that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think you should have rescheduled the playdate right away when you found out about the play. A playdate is really about having fun playing together, not watching a sibling perform. I think it probably put the mom who fibbed in an awkward situation when you changed it after the fact. Were you going to drive or walk to the performance? Some people are uncomfortable with other drivers. This is just an example. Some kids aren't well behaved during a performance or enjoy shows. My kids have been attending shows since infancy practically. But we have friends that took their kids to their first shows at like 8-10 and thought that was perfectly normal for them. Maybe the child was really looking forward to the playdate and mom thought, hmm, well we can get some other stuff done at that time. I would have extrapolated that in my brain to "they have an appointment with their living room. Fine by me.". I also do think it is kind of odd to turn a playdate into something else. I would have phrased it, "I'm sorry, I have to cancel our playdate for Friday. Suzie's stepsister is performing in a dance recital. However, Betsy would be more than welcome to join us if she wanted.". Assuming that would be a hit and just making the change isn't great either. All that said, I wouldn't invite the child back for this event after all that. I wouldn't hold it against them in the future or make a big deal about it either though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think the best thing to do, if YOU have to change the venue of the playdate is to say, "I am sorry, our plans have changed, the kids will not be able to have their usual playdate because we have to attend a play. You are welcome to join us, or we can reschedule." I personally don't think it is fair to put someone else in the position of feeling they might hurt your feelings either way (telling the truth or having an excuse not to come.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The other mother might have been afraid that telling the truth would put you in a bad spot. Once when my son was young, he was invited to a birthday party where the birthday boy was receiving Halo and they were going to stay up all night playing it. I had a longstanding rule that my son could not play rated M games, so I told the truth. I even offered to bring him to the party but pick him up before they started playing. The parents were very upset because having my son there was so important to the birthday boy. They ended up changing the whole party at the last minute to accommodate my uptight standards. I felt so bad about causing them so much chaos. I felt like I had been very rude. I think it would have been more kind if I had just called and said that Ds would not be attending because we are all puking our brains out. Amy g, I have been on the other side of this, and we REALLY wanted the little girl to come to the party. It was worth it to change the party so that she could comfortably attend. My DD would have been sick with disappointment if her friend had "called in sick" at the last minute. So, I think you handled it well. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craftymama Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Well, I would try not to think about it too much, but I also wouldn't re-invite. Yes, the child has let the cat out of the bag that it was perhaps a lie, but I would feel like I was begging or nagging to re-invite. If the other mom wants to come clean or lie again (whichever the case may be) to have her child part of the play date again that's on her. There's always next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evergreen State Sue Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Why can't the mom just say their appointment was rescheduled and ask if it is ok if her daughter could still come to the playdate? Who needs to know the first lie was covered with a second lie? I don't think it is the hosting family's responsibility to beg her to come now that the school play is not that weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I don't think it was polite to change plans so drastically from "playing at my home" to "I'm going to drive your child somewhere and make her sit and watch a performance for someone she doesn't know." There are all sorts of reasons someone wouldn't be comfortable with that arrangement. I really think it was the OP who caused the problem here. The other mother was put in an uncomfortable position by the switch in plans and tried to gracefully remove herself from the situation. I'm sure she didn't mean for her daughter to expose the lie and ask to be reinvited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think you should have rescheduled the playdate right away when you found out about the play. A playdate is really about having fun playing together, not watching a sibling perform. I think it probably put the mom who fibbed in an awkward situation when you changed it after the fact. Were you going to drive or walk to the performance? Some people are uncomfortable with other drivers. This is just an example. We are not going to wait for empty days to do plaudates because that would mean no play dates. Four extraverted kids, 99% public schooled friends, and mostly working parents means there are no free days except occasional mindful family days. This is normal in our circle. Carpooling, joint play-dates, and the like are the order of the day. I would say that my daughter goes to drop off, pick up, or play near a friend's sibling at about half her play dates. I do understand that she may not want someone else driving her kid but she doesn't have to say so. "We'd rather not, thanks!" Is seriously sufficient. I get requests like this on a weekly basis and I just tell the truth. "Oh, actually she was hoping to do X--does friend want to come over here?" Or "that's a lot in one day. What about next weekend?" Not lying is not hard. Also, I did not clarify the event here but it was clear to the parents that it was 15 minutes in a central get-together part of our town. Still, I get that it might be something that sounds like no fun. That is fine. Everyone is different. That is not an issue. But anyway, I don't lie so this is really just to say, lying means you miss out. And I don't buy that it's rude to invite a seven year older to play and have plans change somewhat. Sorry. This is not a wedding or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 ETA.. Amy G, we have re-scheduled a part for a friend. People are more import an to us than themes or games. You did the right thing. His friend would have been hurt if you made an excuse. Honesty--kind, assertive honesty, really is the best policy. And I'm going to assume the girl I this situation was mistaken and we will invite in a non-pushy way as long as DD wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think the best thing to do, if YOU have to change the venue of the playdate is to say, "I am sorry, our plans have changed, the kids will not be able to have their usual playdate because we have to attend a play. You are welcome to join us, or we can reschedule." I personally don't think it is fair to put someone else in the position of feeling they might hurt your feelings either way (telling the truth or having an excuse not to come.) It wouldn't let me like this but I did ask if it was okay. I totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see nothing wrong with the other parent saying, thank you for the invite, but I am not comfortable with my child attending xyz. Let's reschedule when we are all free. I would be happy to host in your place. White lies are not polite. Lying is dishonest and cowardly. Lying doesn't benefit the listener. It provides the teller with an out for an uncomfortable situation. See, I agree with the poster that pointed out the "fifty shades of gray" of lying...when you get right down to it, lies of omission are also lies. So does that mean that saying that you are not comfortable going, when you also don't WANT to go, is a lie? And choosing NOT to point out that someone made, say, a grammar mistake, is a lie of omission? I was just discussion a similar situation with a friend, who was trying to avoid an entanglement with kids she'd rather her child not associate with, and she ended up declining an invitation by using an event that was true, but not the real reason her daughter was declining. Personally, I don't think it makes one a better person to say, " I decided I don't want my daughter to become friends with yours" than to say, " We are unavailable at that time." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 See, I agree with the poster that pointed out the "fifty shades of gray" of lying...when you get right down to it, lies of omission are also lies. So does that mean that saying that you are not comfortable going, when you also don't WANT to go, is a lie? And choosing NOT to point out that someone made, say, a grammar mistake, is a lie of omission? I was just discussion a similar situation with a friend, who was trying to avoid an entanglement with kids she'd rather her child not associate with, and she ended up declining an invitation by using an event that was true, but not the real reason her daughter was declining. Personally, I don't think it makes one a better person to say, " I decided I don't want my daughter to become friends with yours" than to say, " We are unavailable at that time." The latter is more tactful than the former, esp since true. And when does what is actually said (or not said) fall under a filter rather than a lie of omission? There are definitely times when I'll tackle things head on - and other times when I back off for various reasons. I see a difference between backing off and making up an outright lie (uh, yeah, my dog ate my homework or I have an appt when there is no such thing). I won't (can't?) make things up. I might not say all I could say. I might redirect. The latter two I don't really see as problems in most cases, and sometimes they ought to fall under filters or tact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodhaven Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I haven't read other responses, but I'd just leave it alone - she can't make it because of an appointment on that day. If the child's mom wants to call and tell you she was mistaken, or it was cancelled, that's up to her. No need to twist yourself in knots to smooth this out. Keep it simple. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 See, that kind of lie being fine and OK is exactly why I detest social stuff. "White" lies are supposed to be lies that avoid hurting the other person, but IME at least 75% of them are told to make the speaker feel better, when it would be preferable for the lie-ee to know the truth. (Oops,is my Aspie showing? :lol: ) I think you are wise not to spend too much energy on this. Lying is lying. I think it is a horrible precedent to lie in front of and for your kids. That's just your honesty showing. I would not want to give credence to that tactic. I'd probably just tell the mom I am confused about the sequence of events and see what she says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think you should have rescheduled the playdate right away when you found out about the play. A playdate is really about having fun playing together, not watching a sibling perform. I think it probably put the mom who fibbed in an awkward situation when you changed it after the fact. Were you going to drive or walk to the performance? Some people are uncomfortable with other drivers. This is just an example. Yes, this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Deleted because I was getting way off the original topic ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think it's on the other kid to talk to her mom and get it fixed. That mom can say the "appointment" was cancelled and she can come after all. And you get to pretend you have no idea she told a white lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I value honesty, but there are lots of ways to be "diplomatic" without coming right out and lying. There is value in being diplomatic too. The "appointment" might have been a private mother-daughter tea or something. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 If you used the 'unavailable' line, I would continue to contact you and try to arrange activities to facilitate the friendship. As you continued to decline, I would be agonizing about what we are doing wrong. What days do you seem to be busy? Do you not like doing mornings? Is there something wrong with our house? Do I need to arrange special activities for the kids to do? Would you rather meet at the park? Did I or my kid say something to offend you? I'd spend a lot of time and effort trying to find something that will work for you. After a certain number of declined invitations, I'd get the message and understand that, for whatever reason, you don't want to spend time with us. I'd hate you for being too cowardly to come out and say so. I'd continue to wonder what is wrong with us, and this would negatively effect other friendships and relationships, as well as my overall confidence. I would spend months suffering insomnia, anxiety and depression (this would not be your fault, of course, because I am already prone to these things, but your behavior would be a trigger). Result? You saved yourself maybe 2 minutes of mild discomfort, and I am still in therapy (again, not your fault, and yes there are other issues at play, but you have still caused me pain for no good reason). I think a more sustainable approach is to offer a playdate idea 2x and then, if they say "no" to both without coming back with options that will work better (e.g., we can't do this week but next week is more free), then my response would be along the lines of "OK, let me know if/when you have any ideas for a get-together." Then the ball is in their court and I do not spend one more minute worrying about it. Some people aren't going to like me (or trust me with their kid), and I'm OK with that. My kids have a couple of friends who would like to get together for "play dates." I got the moms' email addresses and sent them some generic ideas (e.g., my kids swim every Mon / Wed, would yours like to meet up there?) A couple times I heard of something the kids might like to do together, and I forwarded the info to the other moms via email. One responded with "no, we're busy" and the other didn't respond. Fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 OK, as I said before, it's very probably coming from my autistic side and my history of mental health issues, but I would much rather hear the first option and I would think you a better person if you used it, because you are being more courageous, more honest and more respectful towards me. Sure I might feel sad (or even maybe a bit outraged) that you don't think my kid is good enough for your daughter. However I'd get over it fairly quickly. I would appreciate knowing that was your reason, I'd respect you for telling me, but I wouldn't waste any more time on you and your kid. ... If people want to tell 'white lies', go ahead. I understand that not everybody values honesty the way I do. But don't kid yourselves that it's being kind. IME, people get just as agonized over the first option, if not more so, if it's left open-ended. They spend their time agonizing over WHY they (or their kids) aren't good enough. What did they do - or not do? Or does it involve who they are? If we are talking about truly breaking a relationship off - or not starting a deeper one - there needs to be reasons given. Then the relationship can break off and heal rather than leaving an open festering wound. But the original situation wasn't breaking the relationship permanently (as far as I understand). It was this one playdate. That makes this situation more gray than black & white as to whether a filter/tact is more beneficial or whether open honesty would have been better. The "right" answer could lie in the personalities involved. I still think outright lying is something I couldn't do. That seriously breaches trust down the road as it has done with the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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