From the daughter of a cop...

[ErinE]

Am I the only one who finds the body camera talk creepy? It's just so very Big Brother and feels like the beginning of a bad sci fi flick. Who is next? Teachers? Doctors? Who would WANT to be a cop, doctor, or teacher knowing you are required to act as your own prosecutor in the event you make a mistake? Clearly, the answer is that only people who never make mistakes are qualified to be in these professions.

 

Why stop with cops. Have EVERY citizen implanted with a camera and the cops can just watch their activity from a computer. If they see anything criminal, they can just flip a kill-switch and be done with it.

I personally believe every LEO, in the performance of his or her duty, is subject to recording so long it doesn't interfere with his or her work. If a person is acting as the enforcement arm of the government, he or she is held to a higher standard.

 

Body cameras have vindicated police officers as well as incriminated them.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

That's how Dh's training was. He didn't get to come home most weekends because it meant a flight(it was an 8 hour drive from home). I had three children under 5. Fun times. :)

My husband started the academy 2 weeks before #4 was born. My oldest was 5. I have very fuzzy memories of those 6 months. The academy was only 1.5 hours away and I am so glad he was able to come home on weekends - even though I spent them doing his laundry and helping him write out note cards to study from. Definitely fun times. :)

[LucyStoner]

$12,000 a year is $5.77 an hour for a 40 hour week. That's less than the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour (which would be $15,080 FT for a year). I assume then that $12,000 a year was either a really long time ago, for a PT job or maybe some sort of training stipend or just an error/misunderstanding.

[SKL]

Salaries for patrol cops are not too awful here - but not great either.  Many cops moonlight as security guards etc.  Unfortunately, some of them moonlight in illegal pursuits.  Some years ago 50 city cops were arrested for involvement in a drug selling operation.  Isn't that great....

 

I agree that cops need to be paid a living wage and then some to account for the extra risk and other downsides of their jobs.  I think most locations do this within reason, and others probably just don't have the budget for it.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

 

 

 

I think $12,000/year is crazy low.

 

On the other hand, $36k/year is more than a brand new soldier makes per year. They put up with A LOT of crap too, to include getting shot at.

I think soldiers should be paid more too. They take a lot of risks both physical and in their relationships just like police officers do. For the soldiers serving in war zones the risks are much greater both physically and to their relationships. The biggest difference is that we as a society respect, honour, and appreciate our military. We teach our children to and look up to them as heroes. That doesn't happen with police officers. They risk their lives and relationships for nothing but disrespect and insults from society. There may be some who appreciate their sacrifice but the longer we spend in this world the more I realize that most don't.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think soldiers should be paid more too. They take a lot of risks both physical and in their relationships just like police officers do. For the soldiers serving in war zones the risks are much greater both physically and to their relationships. The biggest difference is that we as a society respect, honour, and appreciate our military. We teach our children to and look up to them as heroes. That doesn't happen with police officers. They risk their lives and relationships for nothing but disrespect and insults from society. There may be some who appreciate their sacrifice but the longer we spend in this world the more I realize that most don't.

You are dead wrong that soldiers don't deal with that too. I've had to walk through protestors telling my kids that their dad was a baby killer.

[SKL]

Right, the military isn't so comfy either.  I think one difference is that in the military, you have more affordable housing options (if your family situation allows you to make use of them).  I also think many view the military as a stepping stone vs. a career.  I don't know what the %s are, but I am guessing the % of entry-level cops who make it a career is higher than the % of entry-level military that do so.

[LucyStoner]

The police do not receive "nothing but disrespect and insults from society". That's an adversarial, inflammatory claim. Do they receive disrespect and insults? Yes. But they also receive appreciation and respect from many members of society.

[Mrs Mungo]

Right, the military isn't so comfy either.  I think one difference is that in the military, you have more affordable housing options (if your family situation allows you to make use of them).

Upon what do you base that claim? Are you referring to military housing? *Many* military posts have waiting lists of up to a year or longer for on post housing. This leaves many young families prey to predatory landlords.

 

 

I also think many view the military as a stepping stone vs. a career.  I don't know what the %s are, but I am guessing the % of entry-level cops who make it a career is higher than the % of entry-level military that do so.

I guess you'd need to do some research before there is any validity whatsoever to such a claim. Right now, that is absolutely meaningless postulation on your part.

[Caroline]

What kind of education do you need to become a police officer? Do police officers receive continuing education?

[Mrs Mungo]

The police do not receive "nothing but disrespect and insults from society". That's an adversarial, inflammatory claim. Do they receive disrespect and insults? Yes. But they also receive appreciation and respect from many members of society.

Agreed.

 

Both groups receive both disrespect and praise and appreciation in my experience.

 

It is also true that both groups should be open to valid criticism as publicly funded entities.

[Katy]

There are a lot of assumptions in this statement.

 

Do you recognize that young black men are killed by police officers at an extremely disproportionate rate?

 

If not, is it because you are unaware or the statistics, think the statistics are wrong or because you think young black men are committing far more crimes?

 

If you do, then do you think we can and/or should do something about that?

 

 

 

Did you watch the video of the SC police shooting and the video of the officer telling his version of what happened?

 

Do you recognize the disconnect between the two or do you think his perspective matches the video?

 

Do you think his actions were fine or problematic?

 

If you think they are fine, why?

 

If you think they are problematic, do you think he's a bad person or do you think he's inadequately trained?

 

If he's inadequately trained, do you think part of the training issue is not receiving training on any racial bias he might carry?

 

 

This whole discussion isn't about police officers being bad people, quite the opposite. It's about racial bias. It's about inadequate training and resources. It's about our military having more rules and restrictions regarding shooting unarmed enemy combatants than our police officers have with regard to shooting our own citizens. I think that is wrong. I think it's a problem. If members of our military can be trained to de-escalate and not shoot in foreign countries, even in locations where they have been repeatedly shot at, then I think the same can happen with police forces.

 

Believe me, I understand exactly what it's like to live with someone who has been through a lot of extremely dangerous situations.

 

I'm not going to be drawn into your personal agenda to argue about race.  Statistics about which demographics are committing crimes are freely available.

 

You can argue about whether we have too many laws, whether some of those laws should be abolished, or whether people are personally culpable when sociological factors make them more likely to be drawn into a life of crime than someone of a different demographic, but that doesn't change the fact that police lives are constantly in danger by criminals.

 

No, I haven't seen that video, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if a police officer's take on a scenario differs from an outsider's take.

 

For what it's worth, in neither situation that my dad was in OR the person who killed my cousin's husband was race a factor.  In all three cases, a white man on drugs had murdered someone and was trying to run, and the white officers got in the way of desperate and strung out people with nothing to lose.  In a couple cases that worked out in favor of my family, but tragically in one it did not.

[Miss Peregrine]

What kind of education do you need to become a police officer? Do police officers receive continuing education?

Usually high school diploma. My husband's agency has training days 1-2 times a month. These include range, ground fighting, sensitivity training, homeland security, etc. It's different every month.

[SKL]

Upon what do you base that claim? Are you referring to military housing? *Many* military posts have waiting lists of up to a year or longer for on post housing. This leaves many young families prey to predatory landlords.

 

 

I guess you'd need to do some research before there is any validity whatsoever to such a claim. Right now, that is absolutely meaningless postulation on your part.

 

Can you link stats about the %s that make it a career?  I have family members / friends in the military who have done both (made it a career vs. stepping stone).  But I don't know anyone who was a cop for a little while and then [voluntarily] went on to another long-term career.  Not saying they don't exist, I just don't think people plan it that way in general.

 

As for the housing comment, I wasn't trying to make a sweeping statement, but it is true that many in the military don't have to pay the full market-price cost of their room & board as cops do.  I am aware that this is not universal, but at the lower pay levels, it is a consideration for many.

[LucyStoner]

I just shared Thanksgiving with a Navy family and they just had to move and there is no base housing and few rentals available in the area in safer neighborhoods. They are a three adult, 2 kid (3 generation) household and they were lucky to find a 3 bedroom apartment with a dishwasher. Their rent isn't cheap. He's been in 5+ years and he doesn't make what a starting police officer would. To make ends meet, she commutes 1+ hours each way to work as a medical assistant. If they didn't have grandma living with them and covering after school childcare they probably wouldn't make it.

 

I know several cops who have left the force voluntarily. Some for politics (in which case, yes, police work was that stepping stone) and some for just any job they could get with fewer pressures.

[SparklyUnicorn]

There seem to be a lot of important people that are underpaid.  I don't understand that.  Then again, they also tend to get benefits that many private sector people do not get.  I don't know what cops around here get paid.  I know a lot of cops can make extra money being hired for public events and stuff like that.

 

 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

I should have double checked that $12,000 salary figure before I posted it. Turns out it's actually $20,000. Still terrible but at least legal.

 

I never said that the military aren't disrespected. I said that society IN GENERAL loves our military. I have a brother who served in the army, including a year in Afganistan so I am somewhat familiar. Before my husband joined the police force I thought that most people respected police officers the same way. Now that we've been here a while I realize they don't. People close to us have told him he should get out of that line of work. The media doesn't often have anything nice to say. Even the leadership of many cities would just as soon throw an officer under the bus before an investigation is complete to avoid a law suit. This has happened several times in our area recently. Cops being fired before the state's investigation is even complete only to have the state force the town to rehire them when it's found they were only doing their job. 

 

[mamaraby]

What kind of education do you need to become a police officer? Do police officers receive continuing education?

Depends upon the department and the position. Many have begun to require a bachelor's degree for entry level officers whereas they may have accepted an associates degree before. Many of the larger departments will pay an education premium for a master's degree. Depends upon the department and/or contract. Then in addition to degree there is the academy training that officers either complete at their own expense or if an agency hires them on without it, then the agency will pay for it. Length varies a bit from state to state, department to department.

 

After academy training, the department sends the officer through their training. There are usually multiple phases, usually on more than one shift, and with more than one training officer. After that they're on their own, but with support from other officers.

 

Every officer completes inservice training once or twice a year. They'll also recertify on firearms, tasers, etc. Throughout the year they'll also have required reading from HR on department policies and proceedures which will also include diversity training. If an officer is a member of a special team then there will be ongoing training for the team. Depending upon department budget, there is also usually outside training classes and officer may elect to sign up for. Usually for a special topic/focus or to become a training officer themselves. Ability to attend is dependent upon approval by department heads.

[SparklyUnicorn]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

 

Wow

[SparklyUnicorn]

It varies by region. Police officers up here are compensated better than average for their education, and their union has quite the benefits package. It's not a bad job, especially in terms of compensation.

 

Yeah here it seems decent.  Probably you don't start out making a huge salary (35Kish), but several police officers here are some of the top paid municipal workers in our city. 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

That happened nearly 20 years ago. The guy applied in 1996. I don't know that that happens anymore. There used to be height requirements too. State troopers had to be at least 6' tall. That doesn't happen anymore either.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That happened nearly 20 years ago. The guy applied in 1996. I don't know that that happens anymore. There used to be height requirements too. State troopers had to be at least 6' tall. That doesn't happen anymore either.

 

I hope they don't actually do that anymore!  That's ridiculous.

 

After I took the military test I was told I qualified for any job except MP because I'm too short.  Geesh...

[LucyStoner]

I should have double checked that $12,000 salary figure before I posted it. Turns out it's actually $20,000. Still terrible but at least legal.

I think it is terrible but one thing to consider is the median pay for all jobs where officers are making $20k and $36k. In some of these areas, the populations are small and low income and $36k isn't just a paycheck but a lot better paycheck than is available anywhere else in town to a young person with or without a college degree. Some places have basically no available jobs paying more than $10 an hour and it's hard to see how those areas are supposed to have the tax base to pay officers salaries on par with the higher paying areas.

 

Also according to the BLS, only 1 in 10 cops earn less than $32,670. So $20k is the exception and not the rule. It's important to remember MOST areas pay a lot better than $20k.

[Laurie4b]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

 

Wow, just wow. An IQ of 125 disqualified him from being a LEO. That is a superior IQ, but not crazy high. The reason they gave was that it prevents job turnover. Crazy. What about helping to make someone a good detective or chief or whatever? Shaking my head at this for sure.

[LucyStoner]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

This can't be a widespread policy. Or is it? It reminds me of an episode of the twilight zone where the kids who score too high on the test are put to death. The parents know their son is too smart and are worried but they don't want to scare him. Shudder.

[Alicia64]

One of my cousins was a highway patrolman -- they'd closed down the freeway and set up a block to catch a bad guy. The guy showed up and ran my cousin down.

 

Never learned the race of the driver -- just know that my cousin has been gone for decades now.

 

Cops and firefighters have tough jobs and are paid peanuts. (While Kim K. is a multi-whatever. Our culture. . .)

 

Alley

[LucyStoner]

What kind of education do you need to become a police officer? Do police officers receive continuing education?

Most departments do not require a degree, that said most applicants are probably aided by having a degree. Federal law enforcement officers generally do have degrees.

 

Only two states mandate higher education for officers: Minnesota and Wisconsin both require associate’s degrees. Other states require a minimum of a high school diploma or GED. It’s up to the individual agency to meet or exceed that requirement – which many do. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1% of all local police departments require a 4-year college degree; 15% require a 2-year college degree or some college. - See more at: http://blog.discoverpolicing.org/uncategorized/do-i-need-a-college-degree-to-become-a-police-officer/#sthash.tybYLVTC.dpuf

Some studies suggest that college educated officers use force less often:

 

http://pqx.sagepub.com/content/early/2010/01/03/1098611109357325.abstract

[LucyStoner]

I don't know. And I don't know how to find out, either?

 

You could always score lower on purpose though? So it's kind of dumb no matter how you slice it.

It can't help the image of law enforcement agencies to have max IQ scores. I bet/hope it is not a widespread policy.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Most departments still require just a high school diploma or GED. That is the requirement here but now they also add that a college degree is preferred. My husband was one of only 2 people in his academy class that didn't have a degree. They definitely look for it even if it isn't required. As someone stated above, there is training throughout the year. Department policy and procedures, firearms, driving, etc. Some officers also take college classes to further their education. That is difficult to do in my husband's department though because their schedule changes every week.

 

One of my husband's injuries happened when a drunk driver tried to run him over. Fortunately she wasn't successful and only sustained minor injuries.

 

I have no idea where I would find out if the IQ requirements are still in place. A lot has changed in police work in the past 20 years and I'm just going off of the assumption that that is one of them. I could be wrong of course but I doubt any department would actually admit doing that even if they did.

 

I can't seem to multi quote right now. This is a response to 3 above posts. Hope it's not too confusing.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm not going to be drawn into your personal agenda to argue about race.  Statistics about which demographics are committing crimes are freely available.

You *cannot* pretend that the discussions revolving around the actions of certain police officers and/or police forces are taking place in a vacuum. That is NOT what is happening.

 

 

You can argue about whether we have too many laws, whether some of those laws should be abolished, or whether people are personally culpable when sociological factors make them more likely to be drawn into a life of crime than someone of a different demographic, but that doesn't change the fact that police lives are constantly in danger by criminals.

Absolutely, nobody would argue that. The question that is being argued is to what degree the lives of citizens are/can/should be endangered by police officers.

 

I compared it to the military because soldiers lives are constantly in danger when they are in combat zones. I attended 12 funerals one year. Have you ever attended that many police officer funerals in one year? And yet, our military leaders believe that restrictive rules for under what circumstances they can fire their weapons and/or call in air support are necessary as a *strategic* (not to be confused with a tactical) advantage. Their bar is much higher than simply feeling threatened. You ignored my question as to why a police officer whose duty is to protect and serve our own citizens has much more leeway than soldiers in a combat zone have against (unarmed) enemy combatants. Why are police forces ignoring the *strategic* (not tactical) picture in problem communities?

 

 

No, I haven't seen that video, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if a police officer's take on a scenario differs from an outsider's take.

The video is demonstrably different than the officer's spoken POV to anyone who watches it.

 

ETA:

Dashcam video

http://www.wyff4.com/news/dashcam-video-sc-trooper-facing-felony-charges-after-shooting-unarmed-man/28246760

 

The officer's description of the account starts at 1:40

http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/chilling-new-audio-from-sc-shooting-tape-335257667981

 

 

There seem to be a lot of important people that are underpaid.  I don't understand that.  Then again, they also tend to get benefits that many private sector people do not get.  I don't know what cops around here get paid.  I know a lot of cops can make extra money being hired for public events and stuff like that.

 

It is true that we have better medical benefits than most civilians, but our dental and vision coverage is less than a lot of civilians that I know.

 

 

I never said that the military aren't disrespected. I said that society IN GENERAL loves our military. I have a brother who served in the army, including a year in Afganistan so I am somewhat familiar. Before my husband joined the police force I thought that most people respected police officers the same way. Now that we've been here a while I realize they don't. People close to us have told him he should get out of that line of work. The media doesn't often have anything nice to say.

You believed that the police force was respected before your husband joined the force. Now, you realize differently because you have a closer perspective. But, you aren't willing to accept that I might know more than you about how soldiers are/are not respected?

[mamaraby]

Most departments do not require a degree, that said most applicants are probably aided by having a degree. Federal law enforcement officers generally do have degrees.

 

 

Some studies suggest that college educated officers use force less often:

 

http://pqx.sagepub.com/content/early/2010/01/03/1098611109357325.abstract

Some of the articles I've seen talking about degree requirements (the link from Discover Policing, for example) have been a little out of date. The push for candidates who have college degrees has been fairly recent and I expect the number of agencies requiring degrees will grow over time. There's also a difference between minimum standards and preference for hire. I would imagine having a four year degree would put one higher on the list when it came to selection.

 

As for college educated officers using less force. I can see that playing a factor - particularly since level of education does seem to have a positive impact on the population as a whole.

[LucyStoner]

People have been pressing for Seattle to implement a degree requirement for police officers for over 5 years now. It still hasn't happened. While I agree that the number of agencies requiring degrees will grow over time, I wasn't able to find any articles about agencies adopting new rules very recently. Nearly 1/2 of cops do have a degree, so clearly many applicants exceed the minimum education requirements.

[Miss Peregrine]

Here is what is listed on the CHP website for education requirements:

 

High school diploma, GED, or California High School Proficiency Examination.

 

Highly desirable: possession of a degree, Associate of Arts or higher, from an accredited college; also, additional course work or advanced skills in the following areas: English, including grammar, spelling, punctuation, vocabulary and composition; reading and comprehension; mathematics (used for traffic accident calculations); typing and computer skills (many officers use computers for reports, and most patrol vehicles currently have or will have computers); bilingual; physical fitness; other helpful courses may be social sciences such as sociology and psychology.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

 

 

 

You believed that the police force was respected before your husband joined the force. Now, you realize differently because you have a closer perspective. But, you aren't willing to accept that I might know more than you about how soldiers are/are not respected?

 

I can accept that you know more than I do about the treatment that soldiers receive. My brother has never complained of mistreatment and, while we are very close, it is entirely possible that he simply hasn't shared any of the negative stories with me. Maybe it just feels like the military is more appreciated. I know that there is always that fringe group of protestors but maybe it is more than just a "fringe". It just really feels like no one likes cops. Parents don't want officers to come and speak in the schools, kids are told not to talk to them; it's demoralizing. My husband had a child try to give him a drawing but the child's parents wouldn't let him and told him not to speak to cops. I never considered that this sort of thing may happen soldiers as well. Maybe they should all just be firemen. Everyone loves firemen.

[Mrs Mungo]

I can accept that you know more than I do about the treatment that soldiers receive. My brother has never complained of mistreatment and, while we are very close, it is entirely possible that he simply hasn't shared any of the negative stories with me. Maybe it just feels like the military is more appreciated. I know that there is always that fringe group of protestors but maybe it is more than just a "fringe". It just really feels like no one likes cops. Parents don't want officers to come and speak in the schools, kids are told not to talk to them; it's demoralizing. My husband had a child try to give him a drawing but the child's parents wouldn't let him and told him not to speak to cops. I never considered that this sort of thing may happen soldiers as well. Maybe they should all just be firemen. Everyone loves firemen.

It's true that protestors are few and far between. But, there are *plenty* of people who don't respect soldiers. If you've ever lived in a military town, you would quickly realize how many people refer to soldiers (especially lower enlisted soldiers) as thugs, etc. Then, we have plenty of stories like this:

http://www.newsmax.com/US/army-soldier-uniform-school/2014/09/11/id/594154/

[LucyStoner]

My nieces were just visited by cops in their classroom for safety presentations. The police also handed up out books (while my brother and his husband and my nieces are well off, it is a low income school). My brother, hardly one to never criticize police over things like racial and gender profiling, set up the visit and posted pictures on social media of his young daughters beaming and hugging the officers. One can critique some cops or some LE policies while also respecting most LEOs and trying to build positive community-police connections. I don't think such black and white thinking "people all hate cops" is helpful. It's certainly no better than some people saying that all cops are racists or doughnut addicts.

[poppy]

This thread prompted me to look up my town's police salary.  Average is $49,000-$72,000. Entry level is $40-$60.  We have two high level officers who took home over $150K, including details and overtime.

[Mrs Mungo]

My nieces were just visited by cops in their classroom for safety presentations. My brother, hardly one to never criticize police over things like racial profiling, set up the visit and posted pictures on social media of his young daughters beaming and hugging the officers. One can critique some cops or some LE policies while also respecting most LEOs and trying to build positive community-police connections.

Exactly.

 

Moreover, from my perspective, strategic decisions (like Rules of Engagement) are set up by upper echelon leaders. Those are the officers ultimately responsible for these situations, not just the officer on the street. They are the ones who should be helping train the officers on the street, they are the ones who should be working to win the hearts and minds of the communities, they are the ones who should be setting departmental rules.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

It's true that protestors are few and far between. But, there are *plenty* of people who don't respect soldiers. If you've ever lived in a military town, you would quickly realize how many people refer to soldiers (especially lower enlisted soldiers) as thugs, etc. Then, we have plenty of stories like this:

http://www.newsmax.com/US/army-soldier-uniform-school/2014/09/11/id/594154/

 

I live in a Navy/Coast Guard area and grew up in Hampton Roads VA that has all 5 military branches. I've never heard soldiers referred to as thugs. I realize that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I grew up in, and continue to run in, pretty wholesome, respect-your-leaders type circles.

 

I remember reading that story when it first came out. It's horrible. The same thing has happened with police officers recently. I guess there are more similarities than I thought. This is a sensitive time for officers and their families and I have been a lot more on edge than normal. Usually I handle the stresses of the job just fine and don't worry much at all. The Ferguson riots and the officer ambushed in FL last week have brought all the fears to the surface. I'm sure I'm being more sensitive than is warranted.

 

[poppy]

It's true that protestors are few and far between. But, there are *plenty* of people who don't respect soldiers. If you've ever lived in a military town, you would quickly realize how many people refer to soldiers (especially lower enlisted soldiers) as thugs, etc. Then, we have plenty of stories like this:

http://www.newsmax.com/US/army-soldier-uniform-school/2014/09/11/id/594154/

 

That story is dreadful..... I can't even figure out why that policy exists. But are there really lots of stories in that vein? I am asking honestly.  It seems so strange to me.  I live in a very, very liberal area and I can't imagine that kind of nonsense being tolerated here.

[LucyStoner]

That story is dreadful..... I can't even figure out why that policy exists. But are there really lots of stories in that vein? I am asking honestly. It seems so strange to me. I live in a very, very liberal area and I can't imagine that kind of nonsense being tolerated here.

That wasn't apparently the policy in the article either. It was one school's staff going off the rails.

[Katy]

If you want to argue about race, start your own thread or go back to one of the others.  Personally, I think that sort of discussion is too political for this board.

 

As to why all officers aren't consistently motivated to de-escalate situations, while I have many family members who are veterans and those in law enforcement, I personally have experience with neither, so I can't say for sure.  My guess is that the police policy hasn't changed, but the Pentagon & DOD's  rules of engagement have as we've been increasingly involved in strategies designed to "win hearts and minds" rather than simply conquer.   I seem to recall a few articles about former generals criticizing those changes as unsafe during the previous administration. 

 

If you're so convinced this is a move that would be good for everyone, why don't you start a petition on change.org to universally require it? 

[shage]

This can't be a widespread policy. Or is it? It reminds me of an episode of the twilight zone where the kids who score too high on the test are put to death. The parents know their son is too smart and are worried but they don't want to scare him. Shudder.

 

 

 

I don't know. And I don't know how to find out, either?

 

You could always score lower on purpose though? So it's kind of dumb no matter how you slice it.

 

 

 

It can't help the image of law enforcement agencies to have max IQ scores. I bet/hope it is not a widespread policy.

No, it's not widespread policy.

 

AFAIK the impact of the New London case was minimal. Note the court upheld the practice and was not saying that it was ideal. Also, the test involved was a paper and pencil group employment exam and IQ was inferred from that. (A rough equivalent would be using the SAT to infer IQ). Pretty sure neither the test nor the policy would hold up if currently challenged.

 

Rather, it would not hold up in my neck of the woods. IQ tests are generally not required locally and are only administered if there is a specific reason to do so.

 

Most new hires have bachelors degrees, not because it is required, just that the applicant pool is pretty competitive these days. This is in a part of the country where pay/benefits are strong especially when compared to the overall economy.

[shage]

If you want to argue about race, start your own thread or go back to one of the others.  Personally, I think that sort of discussion is too political for this board.

 

As to why all officers aren't consistently motivated to de-escalate situations, while I have many family members who are veterans and those in law enforcement, I personally have experience with neither, so I can't say for sure.  My guess is that the police policy hasn't changed, but the Pentagon & DOD's  rules of engagement have as we've been increasingly involved in strategies designed to "win hearts and minds" rather than simply conquer.   I seem to recall a few articles about former generals criticizing those changes as unsafe during the previous administration. 

 

If you're so convinced this is a move that would be good for everyone, why don't you start a petition on change.org to universally require it?

 

There is some very compelling data that training with Crisis Intervention Training (put together by NAMI) has a significant impact on reducing deaths by officers. Much of the focus is on dealing with individuals with mental illness. One fundamental problem on the streets is that the behaviors designed to reign in criminals will escalate individuals who are mentally ill.

 

I see this routinely in the jail. Protocols designed for a run-of-the-mill hostile person are the exact opposite a psychiatric/forensic unit would use to calm a psychotic person. I am talking about type and location of restraints, how inmates are escorted, even lighting in the facilities. The sheriff deputies are not used to flipping their routines.

 

I think your comment that policies have yet to change is spot on. It's a work in progress.

[shage]

Can you link to some kind of something that shows it was not or is not a widespread practice, please? If the impact was minimal, that sounds like...because everyone was doing it, so nothing changed. Further it was ruled non-discriminatory because they declined everyone who scored higher on the test.

 

I have to come clean and say I only knew about that because I've met ppl who wanted to be cops but were deemed too smart or too high-achieving. I didn't believe it at first. But I know it has happened. My experience and first And Second hand info is *purely anecdotal,* obviously, but it exists and id love to see something disproove my current understanding.

 

I understand that you're saying they don't do any kind of test in your area....but that raises even more concerns. How, then, are candidates evaluated? The test in the case in the article was to determine how quickly you can be accurate. Given the context of the current conversation (here and nationally) about the police, I would think that scoring high on quick and accurate decision-making would be mandatory.

I can't speak to hiring practices everywhere, only my location. When we do pre-employment psych evals, we go by local jurisdictions. I have done county and state hiring, not federal. Would have to google to find out how it work elsewhere.

 

Most departments do use some kind of pre-employment test, but these are not IQ tests. Again, think of it as using SAT scores in hiring. The departments are supposed to collect data to show that the tests are predictive; if the data is not collected, then there is grounds for a legal challenge.

 

My involvement is usually at the appeal stage. Read: someone has passed every other part of the process including the interviews, but not the psych piece. At that stage the applicant is entitled to a second opinion. We could do IQ testing at that point, but since the applicants have already passed everything else, there is usually not much point. It makes more sense to focus on the piece that was triggered the first psych eval fail---usually something in the history that there is concern could impact the present.

 

I can think of one time we did an IQ screen; the applicant scored pretty high but it was neither here nor there. A lot of the state ranger/fish and game applicants are extremely bright people who want to be in the outdoors and would prefer not to go to grad school. That is probably specific to my location though. Am guessing in other parts of the country those jobs might attract outdoorsy/hunter types of all education levels.

[Renee in NC]

I don't know that we do pay them less than a livable wage. Certainly cops are not underpaid everywhere.

 

A step 1 entry level officer here makes $69,240. This rises after 54 months to just over $90K. Plus there is overtime and a much more generous health package than is typical for private companies. I honestly can think of no job in the private sector where you are guaranteed pay raises totalling north of $20K after 4.5 years on the job, especially when you don't need any sort of 4 year college degree. Don't get me wrong I don't think cops here are overpaid and I would be amenable to them making more but $90K is a "living wage" and then some in this area. Starting pay wise this is comparable to what some engineers make out of college but the engineer likely won't hit $90k just 5 years on the job and they are unlikely to be eligible for overtime pay. Also consider that overtime and off duty work is available. And there's more money for getting promoted. I know a great detective and she's doing more than fine financially.

 

Here it is $33K to start, with no overtime.  They do get comp time, so at some point if they need to take a lot of time off they can.  My friend that has been a cop for 12 years makes about $45K.  That is not unusual for this area, and he actually makes more than average (which keeps him from switching agencies.)

[mamaraby]

People have been pressing for Seattle to implement a degree requirement for police officers for over 5 years now. It still hasn't happened. While I agree that the number of agencies requiring degrees will grow over time, I wasn't able to find any articles about agencies adopting new rules very recently. Nearly 1/2 of cops do have a degree, so clearly many applicants exceed the minimum education requirements.

Well, requirements vary largely from department to department and state to state. I live in a higher regulation state and the nearby sheriff's office has moved to a bachelor's degree requirement for deputy and associates degree for correctional officer. I think they're working towards masters degree for sgt and higher. The next county over has decent bonus rates paid per degree level. So from here, there's more of a push.

[Dmmetler]

Am I the only one who finds the body camera talk creepy? It's just so very Big Brother and feels like the beginning of a bad sci fi flick. Who is next? Teachers? Doctors? Who would WANT to be a cop, doctor, or teacher knowing you are required to act as your own prosecutor in the event you make a mistake? Clearly, the answer is that only people who never make mistakes are qualified to be in these professions.

 

Why stop with cops. Have EVERY citizen implanted with a camera and the cops can just watch their activity from a computer. If they see anything criminal, they can just flip a kill-switch and be done with it.

 

FWIW, I've taught in settings where there were cameras on all the time (as an early childhood/music education college professor-a lot of the classes I've taught are both classes for preschool children and classes for college students, who have to watch and analyze lessons-and those classes are broadcast on a TV monitor or there is a 2 way mirror in the room so they can observe, and are usually recorded to give students NO excuse for not getting those hours in) and I was wired for sound.

 

And, in many ways, I like it. There's NO "He said, She said". If a parent makes a claim, they can pull the tape and see what actually happened. I also like that the college students can't claim "Well, I was in student health once, and that's why I didn't get my 20 hours of observation in-because they can go to the lab at any time and pull a full semester's (or more) worth of digital recordings of not only my teaching, but the discussion session that followed.

 

You do get used quickly to turning OFF your microphone when you go to the bathroom :). 

 

It really isn't a big deal.

[Lisbeth]

I haven't read all of the responses but they even teach those of us who have taken CCW classes to never aim your gun at anything unless you are ok with destroying or killing that thing or person - even if you think your gun is unloaded.  I am sure that also goes for police officers, probably much, much more so.  

 

At least, that is what they taught in my CCW class.  It was very thorough.  We saw a video of a convenience store robbery - real footage - and were asked what we would do if we had been hiding but had a concealed carry and could stop the robbery.  The point was, once you carry the loaded gun, be very sure, very clear, very comfortable of/with how you would handle specific situations.  In the video, the robber out of the blue pulls his gun to rob the register, the cashier complies, and he still shoots her for no rational reason, and she dies. 

 

A whole philosophical and legal discussion ensued about whether you come out of hiding and aim to kill, or aim to wound.  The general consensus was that if you take that on, you are aiming to kill.  You better be sure.

I think most police officers have been trained to be sure.  It can be such a thankless job - choosing between your actual life and your legal/moral/political life if you make the "wrong" choice - even if it is only wrong because the media makes it so.

 

[swellmomma]

A previous poster just made a great point -- why do we pay police officers a less than livable wage. Are police requirements the same, generally, from state to state?

I am not sure what you call a living wage.  My kids talked to a cop at the high school convention we went to while learning about joining the police force.  Starting wage right out of the academy is 60K a year here, the officer said after 4 years you will never make less than 100K per year again. By contrast, if my kids enlisted in the army right out of high school they will be starting at about 26K per year, after 4 years they *might*  be making 30K a year.  

 

ETA: The one thing that stuck with me too was he spoke about working overtime.  He had to work christmas eve, CHristmas day, and boxing day.  Due to the additions for overtime and holiday pay he was making $1400 per DAY, that is close to what I make in a month and he was getting that per day for those 3 days.  ANd they do 4 on 4 off.  unlike the solider that does 24/7 and get a fraction of what they get.