Minimum of "school" for creative, artistic, busy types? unschooly or relaxed moms look please

[...................]

As my dd is getting older, I am finding that if I give her space to "do her thing" that she will be very industrious cooking, baking, doing graphic art on her ipad, and now she is learning more piano and taking up guitar.  She loves to be busy on her own projects.

 

Now, none of these projects or talents are at the mini prodigy level. Like, she does not qualify as a kid who is going to become a sensation and make a career out of just music or just art (although she may make a career out of cooking...) 

 

If you had a kid who was so industrious and creative, what would the minimum academics be for Middle school?  How about high school?

 

(PS she wants to be Montessori or Waldorf preschool/K teacher...she has wanted the same thing since forever.  She would like to go to our very highly acclaimed community college followed by MOntessori training.)

[Coco_Clark]

Different states have different graduation requirements, and colleges different enrollment standards. I'd figure out both of those for your situation and work backwards. What does she need to accomplish in high school to graduate and get into said highly acclaimed community college? What does she need to accomplish in middle school in order to be ready for that high school plan?

 

Edited to add: I'm speaking more from the perspective of someone that self-taught high school than as a parent.

[Ellie]

As my dd is getting older, I am finding that if I give her space to "do her thing" that she will be very industrious cooking, baking, doing graphic art on her ipad, and now she is learning more piano and taking up guitar.  She loves to be busy on her own projects.

 

Now, none of these projects or talents are at the mini prodigy level. Like, she does not qualify as a kid who is going to become a sensation and make a career out of just music or just art (although she may make a career out of cooking...) 

 

If you had a kid who was so industrious and creative, what would the minimum academics be for Middle school?  How about high school?

 

(PS she wants to be Montessori or Waldorf preschool/K teacher...she has wanted the same thing since forever.  She would like to go to our very highly acclaimed community college followed by MOntessori training.)

 

Good reading skills and access to many, many books (reading aloud to her is good, making the books available to her, of course) good basic arithmetic, exposure to as much history and geography and science as possible without making it into School.

 

I wouldn't have requirements for older children, other than helping them finalize, as much as possible, in their own hearts and minds what it is they want to be as adults, and I'd help them accomplish those things as much as it was in my power to do so (because in my world, there is no "middle school" or "high school;" there are only children of different ages). Since *she* wants to go to the c.c., you should only need to help her focus and to help her find the resources she needs to get there.

[regentrude]

Start by looking at the admissions requirements for the colleges she might be interested and work backwards to make a plan.

Doing independent stuff deos not have to exclude doing normal school work - even if she does six hours of school work, that still leaves as many hours in the day for free projects.

 

[Desert Strawberry]

I can only address middle school, because we haven't started high school yet.

Math, reading, writing- to include grammar, spelling, etc as needed. I agree with others that setting goals and working backwards is the way to go. My kids choose to accelerate, so our goal is to get his basic skills up to a high school level. Once we get there, we live look at graduation and college entrance requirements. 

For us, we do still have a few other subjects. Logic, because he needs to develop his critical thinking skills. Art, because it's good for him. Copy work because his penmanship is appalling. Physics because he loves it. 

[...................]

This makes total sense. To get into CC she just needs to pass the state GED exam which I am told is pretty easy. Himeschoolers I know all passed it at 15 after takinh algebra 1 and being able to write a coherent essay. But I'll look more closely into how to get into the early childhood program because that does require an extra application.

[Dmmetler]

I'd also keep in mind that it's difficult to get a job in ECED that pays a living wage without graduate work and teaching licensure. Often the most expensive preschools pay not much more than minimum wage, and you have to get into Title I Pre-K, VPK, or PS K to get a job with benefits. There are Montessori magnets in many cities which want the AMS/AMI training over and above an early childhood Ed degree and teaching licensure.

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree with upthread.  Lots of good responses.  

 

And while academics are important, I would suggest, please, that you look at skills she may need for success as an independent adult.  Maybe you do this already but my parents did not.  It made life a lot harder than it had to be and put me in financial difficulties on more than one occasion as I tried to navigate the landscape.  I also nearly ruined my car from lack of proper maintenance (or even the knowledge that this was necessary).

 

Examples:  

 

• I did not know how to read a bank statement or balance my checkbook.
•  I did not know how to maintain my car or what all the stickers were for or when they had to be renewed.  
• I had no clue how to apply for an apartment or budget for groceries or how to find a general practitioner (Dad was military so we just went to whoever was available on base - had no idea you could look up doctors in the yellow pages or what criteria to look for in a good one).  
• I also had no real clue how our government works even though I took government in High School.  I have found as an adult that having an understanding of our government has put me in a position to influence local laws and policies, things that could directly affect me and my local community, but it took taking over the education of my kids to realize how lacking I was in basic knowledge.

Anyway, I did really well in High School (math was challenging but I made it through with mostly A's and B's) and I did very well on the SAT.  I also did great in college and went to a very good University.  I was hired quickly and had a very successful career.  But my lack of life skills when I graduated High School was pathetic and my time in college did very little to help in that area.  I hope never to cripple my kids like my parents sort of inadvertently crippled me (great parents, they just focused on academics and extra-curriculars not practical application and life skills knowledge).

[...................]

Great advice! I'll keep that in mind!

[regentrude]

Please keep doors open for her. Just because at age 10 she has a dream she wants to pursue does not mean that this won't change when she is a teen.

Algebra 1 may suffice to pass the GED - but it won't suffice if her plans change to more academic aspirations. I'd set the goals a bit higher than the minimum and create a plan of study for her that leaves her more options than this.

 

My response might be different if this were a child of outstanding talent in one particular area that she would without doubt make her career  and that was very time consuming to nurture - a gifted musician for example who wants to be a professional and who needs to make time for several hours of daily practice. But dabbling in a variety of fun pursuits does not, in my opinion, have to compromise academics to a degree where it limits options in the future.

[momto2Cs]

As my dd is getting older, I am finding that if I give her space to "do her thing" that she will be very industrious cooking, baking, doing graphic art on her ipad, and now she is learning more piano and taking up guitar.  She loves to be busy on her own projects.

 

Now, none of these projects or talents are at the mini prodigy level. Like, she does not qualify as a kid who is going to become a sensation and make a career out of just music or just art (although she may make a career out of cooking...) 

 

If you had a kid who was so industrious and creative, what would the minimum academics be for Middle school?  How about high school?

 

This sounds JUST like my son!

 

Different states have different graduation requirements, and colleges different enrollment standards. I'd figure out both of those for your situation and work backwards. What does she need to accomplish in high school to graduate and get into said highly acclaimed community college? What does she need to accomplish in middle school in order to be ready for that high school plan?

 

Edited to add: I'm speaking more from the perspective of someone that self-taught high school than as a parent.

 

This is what I am currently working on for my son.

 

Agree with upthread.  Lots of good responses.  

 

And while academics are important, I would suggest, please, that you look at skills she may need for success as an independent adult.  Maybe you do this already but my parents did not.  It made life a lot harder than it had to be and put me in financial difficulties on more than one occasion as I tried to navigate the landscape.  I also nearly ruined my car from lack of proper maintenance (or even the knowledge that this was necessary).

 

...

 

I do try to bring a focus to practical skills too. I'm hoping to have him open a svings account, so he can practice keepingtrack of that. He does my (minor) car repairs. He can do his own laundry, and wants to learn to sew and cook.

 

Overall, what I require of him are math and language arts, plus science. I want him to have a very strong skill base in those areas. He reads a lot, he's doing conceptual physics and German on his own, so he is highly motivated, and that really helps. I don't give him busy work, because he has more purposeful ways to spend his time! He plans on starting at the local junior/community college next fall, just an art class to start, and then building up from there. I do work to make sure he has exposure to other subjects as well, such as geography this year.

 

Please keep doors open for her. Just because at age 10 she has a dream she wants to pursue does not mean that this won't change when she is a teen.

Algebra 1 may suffice to pass the GED - but it won't suffice if her plans change to more academic aspirations. I'd set the goals a bit higher than the minimum and create a plan of study for her that leaves her more options than this.

 

My response might be different if this were a child of outstanding talent in one particular area that she would without doubt make her career  and that was very time consuming to nurture - a gifted musician for example who wants to be a professional and who needs to make time for several hours of daily practice. But dabbling in a variety of fun pursuits does not, in my opinion, have to compromise academics to a degree where it limits options in the future.

 

Exactly. I do have high expectations of him in math and writing. If he were not so otivated to learn on his own, I would be even more demanding!

[Zoo Keeper]

I'd also keep in mind that it's difficult to get a job in ECED that pays a living wage without graduate work and teaching licensure. Often the most expensive preschools pay not much more than minimum wage, and you have to get into Title I Pre-K, VPK, or PS K to get a job with benefits. There are Montessori magnets in many cities which want the AMS/AMI training over and above an early childhood Ed degree and teaching licensure.

 

^^ agreeing with this.  Before having my own children, I was a teacher at an academic minded preschool.  I was able to get the position with just a Bachelor's degree and a great work-experience resume. 

 

I would not be able to apply (and get an interview) for the same job now, 15 years later, unless I had *at least*  a Bachelor's, state certification, and a really, really good resume with stellar references. 

 

Sadly, the salary has not changed much. 

[Arcadia]

I'll check what are your community college requirements for early entry into their early childhood degree.

 

I'll still get an hour of math in for middle school. If she is a strong reader and writer, then it's possible to skip formal language arts. For science, work backwards from what foundation she would need for high school.

 

There are quite a few Montessori and a Waldorf school here though so I would see what their internship and job qualifications are.

[...................]

Regentrude- I would never ever limit my dd's education to algebra one!! I'm not sure where that came across. My dd will be required to go all the way through English 4 and pre-calculus! This way if she changes her mind she can pursue whatever she wants.

 

As to worrying about her career, I'll make sure to keep all that in mind. I meant, minimum of school subjects per day, not minimum education...two different things. :)

[wapiti]

.

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[...................]

thank you for your edited eesponse wapiti - the additions make the whole response much more helpful.

 

My point is to give my dd more time to pursue cooking, music, piano, crafts and art while STILL preparing her for life.

[...................]

PS the Montessori training center here requires a minimum of a AA in Early Childhood Ed. Our CC has a track for the Early Childhood that is specifically for transfer to the BS- it has more math and English and less classroom trainingp. She can decide later which track she wants and they both have the same requirements. :) so no matter which path she chooses the starting point is CC.

[regentrude]

My point is to give my dd more time to pursue cooking, music, piano, crafts and art while STILL preparing her for life.

 

Maybe that word minimum is messing people up.

 

Yes to the bolded. Minimum is the bare amount one can just scrape by with.

I trust that you do not want to give your child this minimum... especially not if she wants to be a teacher of all things.

So yes, the word minimum might conjure up an image you don't really meant to evoke.

 

How much time does your DD currently have for her pursuits? How much time does she spend on school?

As I said before, I do not find normal schooling and extracurricular pursuits to be in any way mutually exclusive. I could see how that might be the case with excessively long school days... which I do not consider necessary ;-)

 

[wapiti]

.

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[LaughingCat]

Rather than look at the minimum subjects that need to be done, I would start by looking for choices for each subject that are lower on the time consuming scale while still meeting your expectations where you/she wants to end up. 

[EndOfOrdinary]

One of the reasons I really began looking more into Charolette Mason lately was because she structure the idea of academic schooling into short bits, with a freely open afternoon. All school is done by 1 or 2 so the afternoon is completely open for self interest.

 

When I took our school stuff and really looked at what could be done with a focused fifteen to thirty minutes, it was quite significant. So I started blocking Foriegn language into fifteen minute chunks. Ds loved it. He retained more. He was more excited. Everything went really smoothly. English was shortened to thirty minutes and taking the whole essay and breaking it into smaller micro steps. Same thing happened. Math still tends to run about forty five minutes, but the rest don't. I block out an hour, but he gets through them quicker most days.

 

We still do Latin, Spanish, English, Literature, Math, Chemistry, and History but it seems to fit in more nicely and he gets his afternoons free.

[Clear Creek]

I have a very artsy, creative 5th grader. I cut out everything that she views as busywork, which for us means that things like science and history are read and discussed, no comprehension questions or worksheets. She usually does oral narrations still, but when she does written narrations they are primarily drawings. She does math, English, Latin, writing, and spelling every day. History and Bible are once a week. Science and literature books are  read each day. I also schedule half an hour into her school day for art - her choice, whether it is Arttango or an art instruction book off the shelf.

 

It comes out to about 1 hour of English/spelling, 30 minutes writing, 30 minutes Latin, 1 hour of math, and one hour of reading for science and lit (an additional half hour if she has Bible or history), and 30 minutes art. That is 4 1/2-5 hours of school work, which means she is usually done in the early afternoon (1:30-2:00). That leaves plenty of time for her to practice on the piano (or play around with songs she already knows), do art projects, bake something (she practices cooking at mealtimes), finger knit, crochet, or whatever else strikes her fancy.

 

I don't see this changing too much next year, in 6th grade. If she knows schoolwork will be short and to the point, she will focus and retain. If not, she doodles all over her papers and never accomplishes anything. In 7th grade I will probably have her read history daily, but that will be the only major change.

 

I read something in The Right Side of Normal that really struck me (as a very left-brained individual)...the right-brained individual values the creative process of making something, not the finished product. So practicing the song and making it sound different depending on how it's played, experimenting in the kitchen, the act of drawing and painting...this is what the creative brain thrives on, not the finished product (which is what left-brained individuals focus on). I try to keep this in mind when I am scheduling her school work.

[Soror]

I'm listening in intently as this sounds like my oldest daughter in about 3 years. I've been rethinking about my goals and vision for homeschool, so this discussion fits in nicely with that. I don't see it so much as a minimum rather about prioritization, everything we do, means that we have less time for other things. Now, it is easy to see (for me) that there are certain skills/subjects that are obviously higher priority but as I started to fill in our schedule this year with extras it occurred to me that the extras I was choosing were no more important than what they choose themselves and I'd rather they take the time to follow their own interests.

 

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

I'm listening in intently as this sounds like my oldest daughter in about 3 years. I've been rethinking about my goals and vision for homeschool, so this discussion fits in nicely with that. I don't see it so much as a minimum rather about prioritization, everything we do, means that we have less time for other things. Now, it is easy to see (for me) that there are certain skills/subjects that are obviously higher priority but as I started to fill in our schedule this year with extras it occurred to me that the extras I was choosing were no more important than what they choose themselves and I'd rather they take the time to follow their own interests.

My son pulled all my "fun things" from the schedule fairly early this year. All the bits which I exclaimed, "won't it be fun if we do _______!" Were met with a fairly frank, "no." Well okay then. He wasn't rude, he was just honest. He is plenty old enough this year to discover his own fun things. It is actually fairly neat to watch him becoming his own person. I have gotten to learn all sorts of interesting things too. Things I would never have dreamed of pursuing (like skateboarding).

[IsabelC]

As my dd is getting older, I am finding that if I give her space to "do her thing" that she will be very industrious cooking, baking, doing graphic art on her ipad, and now she is learning more piano and taking up guitar.  She loves to be busy on her own projects.

 

Now, none of these projects or talents are at the mini prodigy level. Like, she does not qualify as a kid who is going to become a sensation and make a career out of just music or just art (although she may make a career out of cooking...) 

 

If you had a kid who was so industrious and creative, what would the minimum academics be for Middle school?  How about high school?

 

(PS she wants to be Montessori or Waldorf preschool/K teacher...she has wanted the same thing since forever.  She would like to go to our very highly acclaimed community college followed by MOntessori training.)

 

 

My first thought was, does your daughter have any plans or ideas for he future employment or further education? Because 'minimum academics' is going to depend a lot on what she is aiming to achieve with her studies (being a citizen with a rounded education vs meeting the requirements for a degree or even entry to a trade). Since she has her heart set on Montessori training, I would work backwards from that with her. What subjects / results will she need at community college to be in a good position for the teacher training? What does she need to learn in high school to prepare for that? What should she concentrate on now, in middle school, to set her up for the high school content? If you kind of flow chart it out, you will end up with a path from this year right up to fulfilling her ambition. Then it should be readily apparently how much time she can realistically devote to her various hobbies.

[Soror]

My son pulled all my "fun things" from the schedule fairly early this year. All the bits which I exclaimed, "won't it be fun if we do _______!" Were met with a fairly frank, "no." Well okay then. He wasn't rude, he was just honest. He is plenty old enough this year to discover his own fun things. It is actually fairly neat to watch him becoming his own person. I have gotten to learn all sorts of interesting things too. Things I would never have dreamed of pursuing (like skateboarding).

LOL, exactly, my ds is the same. My daughter, the creative one, thrives on those things but needs some help from me getting her started at times as she doesn't always know what is out there or needs help learning something. I'm also able to give my son ideas at times as well but he wants me to be much further back and all the little creative stuff she loves he loathes!

[EmilyGF]

I love seeing the creative explorations my kids do after school, and I could totally see my second daughter being a Montessori teacher in the future (all three year old boys seem to have crushes on her). Montesssori training programs usually want the person being trained to have a bachelor's degree...

 

I think I'd want to equip my daughter with the skills to run her own preschool to give her more freedom (organization, business skills, accounting). I'd also want her to continue strongly in skill subjects both not to limit her and to develop the stamina to finish hard things. I second using more streamlined curricula.

 

You could also purposefully use her interests to develop stamina to finish hard things. When I begin a hobby, my husband makes me set a goal to achieve before I finish it. So I can't just "take cake decorating classes," I need to have a goal of accomplishment (for that, it was to make my sister's wedding cake). I'm currently quilting my first quilt; it is twin-sized (and no buying yarn until it is finished!). For cooking, you could choose a cookbook and have a goal that she make dinner once a week for six months out of it, or cook every recipe in it once. (This is totally off the cuff.) For piano or guitar, find a song of an intermediate level and require that she master that song before she move onto anything else. If she really hates it, she'll master that song and nothing else!

 

But being able to finish, and not just to begin, is a skill that is important for those years. Students whose lives are dominated by getting into a 4-year-university have the "big goal" of getting in; if that isn't for your daughter, still teach her to work on big goals.

[Karen in CO]

My older Dd's experience so far with middle school might be helpful.

In 5th grade, she did 1 hour per day of content reading of her choice (science or history). She did 1 hour per day of math. She did music for an hour and did an hour of writing. Once a week she did science labs with a friend. She spent the rest of the day busy but not on electronics.

 

In sixth and seventh grade, she attended a highly acclaimed classical charter school. In October of eighth grade, she came home again. Now she's doing 4 hours per week on math and flying through algebra I. She's working on different genres of fiction writing for about 10-20 hours a week. She is studying science rabbit trails for at least 4 hours a week and taking notes and writing summaries. For history, she's following a one-year summary of world history and taking notes. She is currently interested in cooking and ancient alphabets, so she's planning and preparing meals everyday and learning the Phoenician alphabet. She is also working on sketching, increasing her Latin vocabulary, learning to draw manga and considering Japanese.

 

When she came home this year, we started out with lots structure, but she kept getting distracted by other learning. We ended up with some simple goals and a minimum requirement for a "school day". All of her days don't meet the minimum so they don't all get counted, but many of her days are wonderful.

[Miss Tick]

 

You could also purposefully use her interests to develop stamina to finish hard things. When I begin a hobby, my husband makes me set a goal to achieve before I finish it. So I can't just "take cake decorating classes," I need to have a goal of accomplishment (for that, it was to make my sister's wedding cake). I'm currently quilting my first quilt; it is twin-sized (and no buying yarn until it is finished!). For cooking, you could choose a cookbook and have a goal that she make dinner once a week for six months out of it, or cook every recipe in it once. (This is totally off the cuff.) <snip>

 

But being able to finish, and not just to begin, is a skill that is important for those years. Students whose lives are dominated by getting into a 4-year-university have the "big goal" of getting in; if that isn't for your daughter, still teach her to work on big goals.

I was thinking, along these lines, how about having her take a simple recipe and look at the result if varying different ingredients. Cook's Illustrated does this all the time in their magazine. It would be an interesting way to understand the job of different ingredients. Like sentence diagramming for the kitchen?

 

I love the idea of learning to finish a project. We need to work on that in this household. I'm going to tackle that (a bit) over the holidays. Thanks for the idea!

[...................]

Ok, so I took a few different suggestions and sort of streamlined them.

 

I replaced one of her spelling lessons with time for Cooking and Baking in the morning - it's a good time before I get tired and grumpy about her messes. 

 

I took out the separate Bible, History, and Science time slots and replaced them with "Science, History or Bible for 35 minutes."  She likes variety so I can count on her not always doing one thing.  Besides, many times this will be done with me, and therefore I will be paying attention if she, for example, chooses to skip Science too much.

 

I shortened her Spanish requirement, and replaced two of the Spanish time slots with Guitar time slots so she has built in time to mess around with Guitar

 

Instead of doing Horizons and Zacarro's every single day, I took out one day of Horizons and replaced it with Zacarro's on Friday. So Friday is a more fun day for her, it starts out with cooking and then moves onto Zacarro's which she loves. Before we got sick a few weeks ago, I had also begun crossing out some of the busy work from her Horizon's lessons.  63 problems is not necessary when you have mastered most of the material.  So, I pick and choose what I know she needs, plus a little review in everything else. This reduces math time.

 

I'm also putting her back in Wrtiting and Rhetoric and FLL...at least we really enjoy these programs (particularly W&R) which makes them go by more quickly.  The BJU was easy to use, streamlined, clear and to the point and absolutely uninspiring to the point of nausea...since my dd and I both love to write, it was particularly painful.  I don't think this will necessarily save time, but it saves our nerves which is also valuable.

 

Moving toward high school, we can work on more goal making.  Right now she just needs time and space to do her thing, and with us being at Swim team and getting fresh air at the park between 3;15 and 6:30 every evening, she needed more time in the afternoon.  This works to accomplish that.  Hopefully.