Computer Programming: An Academic Subject for 9th grade?

[fluffybunny]

I'm having a discussion with my brother who thinks computer programming should be part of a 9th grade curriculum, and he was surprised when I said it was not a 'academic subject'. I have hitherto viewed the computer as a distraction (especially for a teen who already loves his laptop too much), and nothing to do with Goodness, Truth and Beauty!  :toetap05:

 

Would you consider programming as a necessary part of a Classical Ed curriculum? My thinking is that CE in high school is all about thinking skills, acquiring a body of knowledge of the best that has ever been thought and said, and being guided towards wisdom and virtue. BUT, it is the 21st century and perhaps I'm way too conservative. We will have trouble fitting it into our curriculum as it's already chockablock. 

 

Would love to hear your thoughts. Essential .... a hobby ..... something you do after highschool ... or other option?   :001_smile:

[Tsuga]

If you're learning a programming language, you're learning a modern language of a sort. It's not nearly as complex as any human language, but it is a living language and understanding some of the basics of programming languages (for they have their own logic just as human languages do) is an important topic for any modern user.

 

I can use two programming languages and I use them to do beautiful things: create graphics that inform people about mathematical patterns in their data. That data happens to be about social services, so I believe that my work and my ability to program (you can't make these graphics with Microsoft Excel push-button graphics) is important to my ability to demonstrate truth and create beauty.

 

Is it a foundation of a classical education? Heck no! I learned philosophy and classics and literature and religion and calculus and how to play an instrument first.

 

But high schoolers should have the opportunity to delve into some of their vocational topics of interest, just to get their feet wet, and this is one of them.

 

But you said your curriculum is pretty full--does that mean that your high schooler has zero electives in which to explore his passions in life or learn new things? I'm thinking musical composition, wood work, car mechanics, volunteering at a hospital... I would say, leave some room to explore, regardless. Programming could be one area. You might limit it to one year and then say he needs to try at least three other vocational skills, one with people, one hands-on, and one in design/the arts, just to give him a taste.

 

So that's a yes, it should be, if the student wants, but along with other subjects like car repair. This is a great time to get an idea of how the world works, and programming is a crucial part of that.

 

But then... so is growing your own squash. ;)

[Joules]

Ds took AP Computer Science in the 9th grade. I actually thought it would be his career, but his interests have gone elsewhere. I am glad that his education included a solid base for CS, if he goes back that direction in college.

 

I'd say it's "not academic," because the education world is so slow to change. They recognize the four core and that's it. Some states/schools do treat CS as academic...some as a language, some as a science, and some as a math.

 

ETA: I re-read the question and I would say it's not traditionally Classical, but it does teach many of the logic and organizational skills that we are aiming for.

[kiana]

I don't think it should be required (although knowledge of computer skills is required) but it's an extremely useful skill to have for many fields.

 

I don't understand 'not academic' though. A lot of things which are not part of the standard curriculum are still academic options.

 

If you can do a PhD in it I'd pretty much consider it an academic course. It'd just be an elective.

[regentrude]

I do not think it should be a mandatory part of  9th grade curriculum - but computer programming is most definitely a rigorous academic subject!

 

A computer is a tool. You can use it for distractions and mindless time wasting - or you can use it for productive work, it it can definitely have to do with "Goodness, truth, and beauty". Computer programming plays an important role in scientific research. Programming is a great way to hone logical thinking skills. There's a lot of applied math in programming.

 

All this does not mean that you must include programming into your homeschool. But there can be no question that programming qualifies as an academic subject.

[kiana]

A computer is a tool. You can use it for distractions and mindless time wasting - or you can use it for productive work, it it can definitely have to do with "Goodness, truth, and beauty". Computer programming plays an important role in scientific research. Programming is a great way to hone logical thinking skills. There's a lot of applied math in programming.

 

Yes. Exactly.

 

And I'd also like to point out that the same thing applies to reading. You can do very productive work reading and analyzing literature, searching for goodness, truth, and beauty -- or you can relax into a pile of Harlequin romances (which I would class in the same category of distractions and mindless time wasting).

 

Subjects are. What we do with them is up to us. 

[Sunshine State Sue]

Well, I have a degree in math and computer studies, so take that for what it's worth.

 

Ds took a Java class in 9th grade and took a CC Intro to Computer Programming class in 12th grade. 

[EKS]

My son took two quarters of computer science (programming) as a dual enrolled high school student. I counted it as science on his transcript because the college called it a natural science course for the purposes of general ed requirements. However, I would not have allowed him to use it in place of biology, chemistry, or physics. So, yes, I'd call it academic, but an academic elective.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Programming is no fluffy joke.  It can definitely be considered an academic subject for 9th grade.  Do I think it's absolutely imperative that everyone take a programming course?  No.  But that's my opinion.  I'm not convinced by the arguments I've read that say otherwise.

I do happen to have one kid who is very interested in computer programming.  So I let him spend lots of time on it.  I can't imagine requiring him to do it though.

 

 

[wapiti]

It needn't be required, but pursued with elective credit awarded absolutely.  I don't think it matters which grade level.

 

The high school that my kids will hopefully attend offers elective computer science courses for credit prior to AP level.  IIRC, whether they offer the AP varies by year.  These courses are part of the math department.  They are not akin to a foreign language (as in, the point is not learning the specific language syntax but learning the logic concepts of programming).

[daijobu]

CS is not generally considered a "science" by public schools which is one reason it is rare for California schools to even offer any sort of programming class.  Because it is considered an "elective," it isn't required for graduation and students aren't encouraged by school officials to take it.  

 

Having said that, I think learning to code not only teaches you how to code, but there's also this meta-learning that one gains: learning how to use logic and quantitative reasoning to teach a machine to do something that comes naturally to human brains.  It's just  too bad that archaic graduation requirements can't keep up with real life.  (And I'm glad to be homeschooling!)  

[elegantlion]

Ds started programming on his own before 9th grade. He did enough during his freshman year that he earned a credit (pretty much unschooled, but included projects and explaining it to me - like break down what you did and explain it to the person who love computers but doesn't program). For him, it's an extension of his love of languages in general. Do I think programming is essential for all? No, but for us it was very academic. He's strongly considering computer engineering as a career. 

 

I'm taking technical communication at college. My professor categorized technical communication as a modern rhetoric. After going through his class, I see why. Technology and being "modern" doesn't negate that fact there may be goodness, truth, and beauty in it. 

[Orthodox6]

The ancient Greeks did not need computer skills; we do. The modern invented, working definition of "classical education" does not include teaching computer skills or, for that matter, how to change an automobile tire. A young adult launched into adult life without either of those skills (and others) will have a hard time eventually.

 

My son took computer science as a required course for the ninth grade at his "outside school".

 

Not all of the necessary knowledge relied on for daily life has any relationship at all to "goodness" or to "beauty."

 

Returning to the idea of academic "legitimacy", my husband holds a Ph.D. In economics. Without his skills using very high-level computer programming languages, he could not do his own work.

[Veritaserum]

My husband is a computer programmer/software developer, so we are biased, but we both believe that learning how to code is a valuable skill/experience. You must use logic ad organization. Some of our children are more interested in learning programming than others, but I am requiring everyone to do at least one term. My 10yo has a knack for it and I wouldn't be surprised if she chose it as a career.

[faithmom]

We consider it to be of great value in our homeschool.  Ds will attend college and his major will be computer science.  Even if our ds wasn't interested, we still would have included it in our high school; I plan for my dd to take it in high school. (The computer age sets the stage for future employment.) Some cover schools require a computer course in high school.

 

We use TeenCoder at homeschool programming . com (leave out spaces)

[MarkT]

It should be an elective

 

just released a nice 1/2 year course:

 

Harvey Mudd

https://www.edx.org/course/harveymuddx/harveymuddx-cs001x-middle-years-computer-5696#.VG9BSGctCM8

 

Middle-Years Computer Science

A fun and engaging introduction to computer science for 5^th-10^th grade, combining unplugged activities and Scratch programming.

 

I have never used Scratch (teaching language from MIT) - but I think Java may be a little "busy" for a first course in programming.

Of course my first programming language was Fortran in 9th grade (I won't tell you when that was).

It was a supplement to my honors math course. 

 

[Orthodox6]

It should be an elective

 

just released a nice 1/2 year course:

 

Harvey Mudd

https://www.edx.org/course/harveymuddx/harveymuddx-cs001x-middle-years-computer-5696#.VG9BSGctCM8

 

Middle-Years Computer Science

A fun and engaging introduction to computer science for 5^th-10^th grade, combining unplugged activities and Scratch programming.

 

I have never used Scratch (teaching language from MIT) - but I think Java may be a little "busy" for a first course in programming.

Of course my first programming language was Fortran in 9th grade (I won't tell you when that was).

It was a supplement to my honors math course.

Thanks for the old memories! In the 8th grade, we were taught to program in BASIC. Punch cards, the whole routine. When the computer telephone would ring, we were not allowed to reveal that the phone was in a school computer lab. Maybe that was some Cold War era precaution?

 

Scratch is fun! I had my younger children spend some time with both Scratch and one other, the name of which escapes my memory.

[Guest Brian Lewis]

One thing I like about Scratch is that it emphasizes "logic components" over "programming language."

 

Writing code is easy. Solving the problem well enough to know what code to write is hard.

 

I took a computer programming class as a high school freshman a quarter-century ago. It focused too much on syntax, flow control, and accurately copying the programming samples—and not enough on problem solving. (To be honest, I was extremely bored in that class, because I'd already been using the programming language as a hobbyist for four years.)

 

Today, I'm a moderately successful information technology professional, but I got here by leveraging a solid foundation in logic and critical thinking, not by knowing a specific programming language.

 

So, my answer to the original question is: I think that the ability to solve human problems and translate that solution to a programming language is imperative in the modern world, but I'm not certain that computer programming courses, as currently structured, provide that valuable skill.

[merylvdm]

I teach computer programming - and have two sons who went to college as computer majors. What I can say is that our world is changing and more and more careers will require the ability to at least understand code. Mark Zuckerberg has said it will be like reading and writing - everyone will need to know how to do it.

 

So for that reason I believe everyone should learn how - this is not something only CS majors need.

 

And as a teacher, I suggest starting as young as possible. Many countries including England and Estonia are starting their students in Kindergarten. The US is falling behind the rest of the world. I watch how hard it is for students to learn and I keep wondering what it would have been like if they had started younger. 

 

So my advice - whether you start in 9th grade or 10th - just be sure to do at least one year before college. A number of the students in our homeschool group have gone to college with no programming experience and have struggled a lot. One who is currently a freshman even had done a semester in C+ at a local community college and was still struggling.

 

And whether or not anyone considers it academic - it is VERY academic. Students have to apply logic and reasoning and so much more.

[Elisabet1]

Actual computer programming, not just computer game playing, is most certainly a part of an academic curriculum. There is even an AP test for it. 

[Elisabet1]

In Texas, a student can now take computer program instead of foreign language for the graduation requirements.

[daijobu]

In Texas, a student can now take computer program instead of foreign language for the graduation requirements.

 

Okay, now this is odd.  How is coding anything at all like speaking and reading a foreign language?  

I'm having a discussion with my brother who thinks computer programming should be part of a 9th grade curriculum, and he was surprised when I said it was not a 'academic subject'.

 

It is easy to come up with subject after subject that should be required, but at the end of the day, you need to make a reasonable schedule.  I'd ask your brother, if programming should be required in 9th grade, what subject would you drop to fit it in?  I don't think there's much argument that a 9th grade schedule should have math, science, english, history, foreign language, fine art and some PE, and maybe an elective.  There's a full day right there.

[elegantlion]

Okay, now this is odd.  How is coding anything at all like speaking and reading a foreign language?  

 

I don't think coding should be used for a FL credit, but I see the correlation. Ds likes languages and programming, there are similarities that speak to him. Patterns, I don't know anything about programming, but there is almost a "grammar" to each coding language. Learning them in tandem has really been helpful to him. Just a note he's learning Russian and Japanese, so completely different writing systems as well. 

[Mike in SA]

Computer science is a branch of mathematics, and definitely fits into a classical education, particularly if you make your way into the development of algorithms.  It consists of applied number theory and computational logic, both of which were studied in classical times (though with different means, as many of our number systems did not exist).

 

As for being a foreign language, I think that pushes things.  It is far too consistent and predictable, and doesn't need the same breadth of vocabulary.  It's mostly syntax.

 

Is it academic?  Yes, even if you only do elementary scripting.  I wouldn't give a full year of credit without some rigor, though.