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MarkT

article: College Board

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I think the College Board is way overstepping, and overestimating its influence. NOTHING will come of test results, whetehr they be aggregated with other data or not.

 


David Coleman, College Board president and CEO: “For a long time, institutions like ours have been reporting that too many students aren’t ready for college and career workforce training. It’s time to do something about it. We at the College Board are transforming what we do to advance opportunity, including refocusing our assessments on what matters most and providing free supports for all students. Offering the same old test in the face of lasting problems is just not good enough.†

Cyndie Schmeiser, College Board chief of assessment: “The latest SAT results reaffirm that we must address the issue of preparedness much earlier and in a more focused way. Students in the class of 2014 missed opportunities that could have helped more of them to make successful transitions to college and career. The College Board is working toward solutions that will advance readiness and success for all students.â€

The College board is in no position to "advance readiness" of students or "do something about it" - nor should it be. This is the task of the schools. The CB should stay out of it. The only thing its programs are going to do is create more testing, more test takers, and possibly better test scores through more targeted test preparation - none of which is going to do one iota for college readiness. These are skills that must be built up in schools, starting in the middle grades.

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These are skills that must be built up in schools, starting in the middle grades.

 

Not only that, there has to be some willingness on the part of the students.  If there's one thing I've seen over the past 15 years it's that there is a larger population of students who is unwilling to put any effort into learning anything.  In my earlier days watching students get together to struggle over a problem was common.  Now it's far more common to shut the offending book and give up - not caring that they don't get it - not even trying one iota as soon as they are stumped.

 

There have always been pockets of both types of students, but the percentages in those pockets sure has shifted.

 

I find myself wondering if it's due to the internet and how conditioned we all are to having answers at our fingertips rather than having to trudge to libraries or encyclopedias or maps (etc) to look things up.

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Not only that, there has to be some willingness on the part of the students.  If there's one thing I've seen over the past 15 years it's that there is a larger population of students who is unwilling to put any effort into learning anything.  In my earlier days watching students get together to struggle over a problem was common.  Now it's far more common to shut the offending book and give up - not caring that they don't get it - not even trying one iota as soon as they are stumped.

 

There have always been pockets of both types of students, but the percentages in those pockets sure has shifted.

 

I find myself wondering if it's due to the internet and how conditioned we all are to having answers at our fingertips rather than having to trudge to libraries or encyclopedias or maps (etc) to look things up.

 

Additionally I lay blame on the rise of multiple choice, standardized testing. 

 

It has been a while since I have been in a class room, but the question that drove me bonkers back in the day was "Is this going to be on the test?"  Students in my Calculus classes were required to show work.  Because so many of them had grown up in a bubble sheet world, they did not know how to organize their work so that I could see something other than hieroglyphics. 

 

I am not sure how College Board can use testing to help our students get organized or develop work ethics. 

 

One of the things that my husband comments on from the workplace is that there are people who see their job as a check off list.  They do the minimal so you cannot say they are bad employees, but they are not team players since they don't rise to assist someone else when they need help ("not my job") and thus limit themselves in their own vision of the operation since they are not learning and growing like others who do more than the minimal. 

 

Does a defined rubric, a lot of hand holding in school, create a future employee who only sees life as a check list?  (I might just be an old curmudgeon so perhaps this is totally irrelevant...)

 

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Additionally I lay blame on the rise of multiple choice, standardized testing. 

 

 

 

FWIW, testing does not have to be multi-choice.  UK students take lots of tests in 'high school' (at least one public exam per subjects studied, on average) but very little of it is multi-choice.  Teachers and retired teachers make extra money marking for the exam boards.

 

L

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I think the College Board is way overstepping, and overestimating its influence. NOTHING will come of test results, whetehr they be aggregated with other data or not.

 

The College board is in no position to "advance readiness" of students or "do something about it" - nor should it be. This is the task of the schools. The CB should stay out of it. The only thing its programs are going to do is create more testing, more test takers, and possibly better test scores through more targeted test preparation - none of which is going to do one iota for college readiness. These are skills that must be built up in schools, starting in the middle grades.

 

:iagree:

 

We had a saying on the manufacturing floor that, "you can't test quality into a product."  I hope the educrats running the show in education will realize soon that, likewise,  you can't test an education into a child.

 

A local teacher wrote an editorial in our paper this week outlining the testing schedule her students will be subjected to this year.  Standardized testing is eating up weeks of the school year and that is not including the time spent prepping for these tests.  This has been going on for years.

 

Ironically, we have 7 public schools in my county.  Not one student from any of these school was named a National Merit Semi-finalist this year.

 

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The College Board sells curricula.  My son is using Springboard, their curricula, for english and math.

 

I have read of others using the College Board curricula as well.  Imo, the "non-profit" College Board should not be in the curricula business.  That is a huge conflict of interest.

 

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One of the things that my husband comments on from the workplace is that there are people who see their job as a check off list.  They do the minimal so you cannot say they are bad employees, but they are not team players since they don't rise to assist someone else when they need help ("not my job") and thus limit themselves in their own vision of the operation since they are not learning and growing like others who do more than the minimal. 

 

Does a defined rubric, a lot of hand holding in school, create a future employee who only sees life as a check list?  (I might just be an old curmudgeon so perhaps this is totally irrelevant...)

 

 

I've heard your hubby's complaints multiple times from those in our IRL circle.  This is the first I've seen it connected to rubrics... I bet you're on to something.  Kids ALWAYS look at the rubrics, then decide if they care about whether they get 4 points or 3 or 2... is it worth the effort on their part?   :glare:

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FWIW, testing does not have to be multi-choice.  UK students take lots of tests in 'high school' (at least one public exam per subjects studied, on average) but very little of it is multi-choice.  Teachers and retired teachers make extra money marking for the exam boards.

 

L

 

Completely agree but in the US it often is.

 

Our friends who graded standardized essays never read the essays for quality.  They had something like 60 seconds to determine a numeric grade based on a rubric. I recognize that things are done differently in other countries.

 

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I've heard your hubby's complaints multiple times from those in our IRL circle.  This is the first I've seen it connected to rubrics... I bet you're on to something.  Kids ALWAYS look at the rubrics, then decide if they care about whether they get 4 points or 3 or 2... is it worth the effort on their part?   :glare:

 

We have been talking about this in the 4-H office.  4-H curricular materials outline a growth process within a discipline.  We are regularly amazed at how many kids are content to do essentially the same thing year after year without developing new skill sets.  Granted, they are in a comfort zone and new skills will push them.  There have been tears shed by some of the kids who fail to understand why they are not moving forward to regional or state competition events.  What they did at age nine is not good enough at age twelve.  Yet parents have accused 4-H staff and judges of not liking their children when we have asked more of them.

 

It is also tied in with that trivial level self esteem stuff, that anything is acceptable.  I had a parent tell me that whatever her child did that day was the best he could do that day.  He deserved highest marks for his best.  I was judging a competition and had to tell her  (when confronted by her) that her child was not organized and did not achieve certain standards--even if it was in her eyes "his best work" for that day.  We are supposed to give every kid a trophy?  I don't think so.

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Not only that, there has to be some willingness on the part of the students.  If there's one thing I've seen over the past 15 years it's that there is a larger population of students who is unwilling to put any effort into learning anything.  In my earlier days watching students get together to struggle over a problem was common.  Now it's far more common to shut the offending book and give up - not caring that they don't get it - not even trying one iota as soon as they are stumped.

 

There have always been pockets of both types of students, but the percentages in those pockets sure has shifted.

 

I find myself wondering if it's due to the internet and how conditioned we all are to having answers at our fingertips rather than having to trudge to libraries or encyclopedias or maps (etc) to look things up.

 

 

Yes, the percentages have changed here too...but that is because the wealthy and those from cultures that promote scholarship moved out of the district when IB was cancelled. We just don't have the demographic that will stay, pay high taxes, and be happy to get the low expectations, fully included classrooms when they can afford the housing in a district that does have instruction at their child's level of need.

 

 

I don't think it is the internet.  It's the parents philosophy of viewing education and work as not necessary.  When my older son was tapped for NJHS, he was the only person in his homeroom with grades high enough to get an invite....the majority of students told him on the spot that he was stupid, as he only needed to work hard enough to pass. It is also the fully included classroom....the workload is very light for neurotypical students, and the expectations....in the nonincluded classroom, 4th grade was a huge transition as the student was expected to read and learn to study...that transition doesn't happen until 7th for honors and 9th for reg ed now as the average student can't read well enough to function at grade level.

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We at the College Board are transforming what we do to advance opportunity, including refocusing our assessments on what matters most and providing free supports for all students. Offering the same old test in the face of lasting problems is just not good enough.†. . . The College Board is working toward solutions that will advance readiness and success for all students.â€

What is the purpose of CB? Is their purpose college screening tests? Not ALL students are college bound. If their purpose is assisting colleges in determining college readiness, then why is "offering the same old test" not enough?

 

I, for one, am extremely uncomfortable with a business model, CB (who has reluctantly been sent hundreds of our $$), having their president make those comments when he is also "leading author and architect of the Common Core State Standards (CCSS), David Coleman," who has talked to state reps in order for them "to understand how the Core Standards for College and Career Readiness" build on state standards.

 

It seems CB desires to move away from assessing and into controlling classrooms beyond AP content. They already have Springboard. http://springboardprogram.collegeboard.org for 6-12.

 

I can only hope that colleges allow for non-SAT testing paths for admission purposes. I would love evidence that focusing on standardized test results has improved the quality of education in this country.

 

Eta: saw multiple people posted while I was typing. I agree 100% that CB has no business in developing curriculum. If I was anti sending my kids to ps before, I am even more so now. My kids will know how to think and they will know how to find independent answers. I do not care if they can answer bubble test questions.

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I've heard your hubby's complaints multiple times from those in our IRL circle.  This is the first I've seen it connected to rubrics... I bet you're on to something.  Kids ALWAYS look at the rubrics, then decide if they care about whether they get 4 points or 3 or 2... is it worth the effort on their part?   :glare:

 

That makes sense though, because everyone wants to 'win'. No need to put effort in if you already are failing, as nothing you can do will get you out of that zone.  You will still be taking credit recovery over the summer or repeating the course the following year, until you age out.  And the kids with Cs already know that the class participation component will erase any outstanding test results.  They cannot win in our grading system - 1/3 tests, 1/3 participation, 1/3 homework. Participation is attendance plus contribution...and they can never contribute at a high enough level.  Many can't write neatly, but aren't low enough to qualify for assistance.  We always have boys who ace Regent's Algebra exams and flunk the course due to the other components.

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Not only that, there has to be some willingness on the part of the students. If there's one thing I've seen over the past 15 years it's that there is a larger population of students who is unwilling to put any effort into learning anything. In my earlier days watching students get together to struggle over a problem was common. Now it's far more common to shut the offending book and give up - not caring that they don't get it - not even trying one iota as soon as they are stumped.

 

There have always been pockets of both types of students, but the percentages in those pockets sure has shifted.

 

I find myself wondering if it's due to the internet and how conditioned we all are to having answers at our fingertips rather than having to trudge to libraries or encyclopedias or maps (etc) to look things up.

My ds is taking pre calc at the cc. Last week there was an online quiz. Worth 5% of the grade. Yesterday the instructor sent out an email noting that he'd calculated interim grades. He pointed out that 16 students in two sections had not done the quiz. At least some have not done either of the two quizzes.

 

The quizzes are scheduled in the syllabus and are availae for 24 hours.

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Not only that, there has to be some willingness on the part of the students.  If there's one thing I've seen over the past 15 years it's that there is a larger population of students who is unwilling to put any effort into learning anything.  In my earlier days watching students get together to struggle over a problem was common.  Now it's far more common to shut the offending book and give up - not caring that they don't get it - not even trying one iota as soon as they are stumped.

 

There have always been pockets of both types of students, but the percentages in those pockets sure has shifted.

 

I find myself wondering if it's due to the internet and how conditioned we all are to having answers at our fingertips rather than having to trudge to libraries or encyclopedias or maps (etc) to look things up.

Absolutely! You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.. A lot of that has to do with the environment in the home. I live in a community that just simply does not value education. The parents value high school football, and basketball, and cheerleading. They value very basic things like reading, until the child is asked to read a Dickens' novel or a Tennyson poem and then the whining, "Why should my kid have to read that?" begins, and they WHINE, angrily complain to the schools about "nonsense". Nonsense includes algebra, English literature beyond fluff and stuff, world history (who cares as long as they know their Eurocentric, very biased American History then everything is set), grammar, foreign language, and science beyond basic nature studies. Oh it's cute to go collect leaves and identify some trees. Good to know when you are eventually maybe going to burn wood for heat out here in the sticks. Try to talk about balancing a chemical equation, or Newton's Laws and apparently this is ONLY for the super genius kids and everyone else should get to skip it. Why learn a foreign language? This is America, if you want to come here speak English. Of course, all of our immigrants around here DO speak English, some of them better than the American citizens. :banghead:  They still tend to be supportive of having art, music, and theater in the schools. But, there isn't much of that due to budget cuts, and there would never be any support for those pursuits IF it meant that the sports budget had to take a hit, or even remain the same. Around here, math and science teachers may lose their jobs over money, but the sports budget will always, always, always get an increase. The attitude is rather atrocious community wide. The interesting thing is that the unemployment rate is high, and there are very few employers that have full time employees who do not possess a college degree or significant professional licensing the exams for which are pretty stout and require at least two years of post-high school education, but this phenomenon does not compute to the parents. Many of them, by their own admission, either barely graduated from high school taking the easiest courses available or are drop outs. They went to work in the factories, made good money, and retired young then worked only part time on the side. They really think, despite the fact that most manufacturing is gone and what is left has become highly technical and requires significant post high school training, that this is the future for their kids and an education is unnecessary. Talk about playing the part of the ostrich!

 

So, it's not just simply that the schools do not get the job done. I've seen schools that do. I have witnessed schools that get it done for the majority of the kids in their care. Frankenmuth high school, Saginaw Academy of Sciences and Arts, West Bloomfield, Rochester Hills, Traverse City schools, Lakeview in Grand Rapids...the difference is that these schools are located in communities where the parents have high expectations for school performance and behavior. The parents are involved, deeply involved, and expect their children to get a good education. They demand it of the schools AND their offspring, obviously exceptions being made for those with learning disabilities. Even then though, I see those schools doing better with their special ed kids than our local district. Our local school meets the letter of the law with the least amount of effort possible, and it's pretty sobering to watch because a number of students are capable of coming along much farther, but no effort is made. Then again, I wonder how much effort the parent is making in these cases.

 

It goes both ways. It takes a good school and an educationally minded set of parents to produce educated young adults.

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It seems CB desires to move away from assessing and into controlling classrooms beyond AP content. 

 

 

 

Yes.  And this is very, very concerning.

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I don't know enough to be concerned yet. Education as a for profit business is always concerning- no matter what textbook seller is behind it.

I've been concerned. When I read that students passing the PARCC ***had*** to be placed in non-remedial courses when accepted into college, I was alarmed by the fact somehow colleges lost their rights to place students appropriately.

 

Btw, PARCC http://parcconline.org/about-parcc states "PARCC is based on the core belief that assessment should work as a tool for enhancing teaching and learning. Because the assessments are aligned with the new, more rigorous Common Core State Standards (CCSS), they ensure that every child is on a path to college and career readiness by measuring what students should know at each grade level."

 

It sounds to me like CB, CC, and PARCC are all closely aligned. It is one thing to want improved standards. It is another to be in control of the source of assessing those standards and exerting control over universities. One of the goals of PARCC is

 

Establish a College†and Careerâ€Ready Determination accepted and used by postsecondary faculty and administrators that guarantees student placement into entryâ€level, creditâ€bearing college courses without the need for remediation

Even AP scores do not "guarantee" placement. That is institutionally determined.

 

 

And, again, Is there evidence that constantly subjecting kids to constant standardized testing improves the quality of education? It seems our populace hasbeen dumbed down since advent of constant standardized testing, not improved.

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I would love evidence that focusing on standardized test results has improved the quality of education in this country.

 

The SAT has improved the caliber of students attending Ivy League and "little Ivy" colleges. Back when my grandfather attended Wesleyan and then Harvard for grad school, almost all the students came from the elite New England prep schools. My grandfather was lucky that he won a scholarship to a prep school because otherwise it's likely he would've ended up like his brother, who attended the state teacher's college.

 

The Ivies used to be full of "gentleman's C" scholars who got into prep school and college on the virtue of coming from the "right" Boston Brahmin (or equivalent) family. The SAT was designed to be a fairer way of selecting students, and I think that our society is much better off as a result of the shift towards a meritocracy. We haven't achieved a true meritocracy yet, but it's a heck of a lot better a situation than it was in the first half of the 20th century.

 

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The SAT has improved the caliber of students attending Ivy League and "little Ivy" colleges. Back when my grandfather attended Wesleyan and then Harvard for grad school, almost all the students came from the elite New England prep schools. My grandfather was lucky that he won a scholarship to a prep school because otherwise it's likely he would've ended up like his brother, who attended the state teacher's college.

 

The Ivies used to be full of "gentleman's C" scholars who got into prep school and college on the virtue of coming from the "right" Boston Brahmin (or equivalent) family. The SAT was designed to be a fairer way of selecting students, and I think that our society is much better off as a result of the shift towards a meritocracy. We haven't achieved a true meritocracy yet, but it's a heck of a lot better a situation than it was in the first half of the 20th century.

 

Has the quality of k12education improved due to SAT testing? If it is a screening tool for college readiness that is a completely different issue than the mission of ensuring that all students are college and career ready.

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This press release is filled with horrible education jargon that makes it difficult to read.  Apparently "readiness" is today's buzzword.

 

However, it didn't seem to say anything about, exactly, the college board was doing to "enhance readiness" for "all students", whatever that means.

 

 

The one interesting statistic in the press release is that they claim that some unstated score on the PSAT is a strong indication that a student will be ready for some specific AP level work. But, almost 40% of such students never took this (again, unstated) AP test.  It would be interesting to know why this is -- are those classes not offered to the student?  Did the student take the class, but not the test?  Did the student take a DE class instead of AP? If the College Board wants to use historical data to shame public schools into offering more rigorous classes, and teaching them well,  I'm all for that.

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This press release is filled with horrible education jargon that makes it difficult to read. Apparently "readiness" is today's buzzword.

 

However, it didn't seem to say anything about, exactly, the college board was doing to "enhance readiness" for "all students", whatever that means.

 

 

The one interesting statistic in the press release is that they claim that some unstated score on the PSAT is a strong indication that a student will be ready for some specific AP level work. But, almost 40% of such students never took this (again unstated) AP test. It would be interesting to know why this is -- are those classes not offered to the student? Did the student take the class, but not the test? If the College Board wants to use historical data to shame schools into offering more rigorous classes, and teaching them well, I'm all for that.

Or did the student opt to bypass CB and DE?

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I tried to find a current stat on percentage of students DE and couldn't find one. We need Arcadia....she seems to be able to locate anything!

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Has the quality of k12education improved due to SAT testing? If it is a screening tool for college readiness that is a completely different issue than the mission of ensuring that all students are college and career ready.

 

The increased selectivity of colleges has pushed many high schools to offer more rigorous courses than they did in the past. My mom's high school went from forcing students to choose between either honors humanities or honors science & math (and strongly discouraging girls from enrolling in the latter track) to offering a full IB diploma. Almost all the honors track students went to the state flagship university, with a few going to LAC's within maybe a 5 hour drive. She was seen as the oddball for applying to the University of California system (wanted to go to Berkeley, but had to start at Riverside & then transfer). Today it's pretty much a given that many (if not most) of the top students will be applying to schools all across the U.S.

 

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The increased selectivity of colleges has pushed many high schools to offer more rigorous courses than they did in the past. My mom's high school went from forcing students to choose between either honors humanities or honors science & math (and strongly discouraging girls from enrolling in the latter track) to offering a full IB diploma. Almost all the honors track students went to the state flagship university, with a few going to LAC's within maybe a 5 hour drive. She was seen as the oddball for applying to the University of California system (wanted to go to Berkeley, but had to start at Riverside & then transfer). Today it's pretty much a given that many (if not most) of the top students will be applying to schools all across the U.S.

 

Changing course titles and offerings does not prove that the quality of education has increased. And we are a more mobile society with simpler access to transportation, so comparing location to generations ago does not make the argument that quality of k12 Ed has improved either due to SAT testing.

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Changing course titles and offerings does not prove that the quality of education has increased.

 

Going from only allowing 2 honors courses (English & history or math & science) to allowing a full 6-7 course load *IS* an improvement. My mom got stuck taking non-honors math & science because she chose/was steered into honors humanities. Today, she'd be doing the full IB diploma, including IB math and science. She never took calculus until grad school, whereas today she'd be taking it in 11th or 12th.

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It's the parents philosophy of viewing education and work as not necessary.  

 

As a parent of a low-achieving student who always wants to do the bare minimum amount of work, I don't find this to be true at all. 

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Going from only allowing 2 honors courses (English & history or math & science) to allowing a full 6-7 course load *IS* an improvement. My mom got stuck taking non-honors math & science because she chose/was steered into honors humanities. Today, she'd be doing the full IB diploma, including IB math and science. She never took calculus until grad school, whereas today she'd be taking it in 11th or 12th.

You miss the point. I can guarantee my dh's college prep, not honors, not AP, English class with required reading of Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, etc, research papers, etc was a better course than many AP English classes today. The title of the course is meaningless.

 

And yes, today more math courses are offered, but again, that does not mean that it is due to the SAT. It is due to changing technology, careers, and society.

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The one interesting statistic in the press release is that they claim that some unstated score on the PSAT is a strong indication that a student will be ready for some specific AP level work. But, almost 40% of such students never took this (again, unstated) AP test.  It would be interesting to know why this is -- are those classes not offered to the student?  Did the student take the class, but not the test?  Did the student take a DE class instead of AP? If the College Board wants to use historical data to shame public schools into offering more rigorous classes, and teaching them well,  I'm all for that.

 

From what I've seen, sometimes AP classes are not offered because the teachers cannot teach them. IOW, the teachers do not understand their subject well enough to teach it effectively. I recall Kathy in Richmond having to reteach calculus to her daughter's friend who had received all A's in her Calc BC class but a 1 on the exam. I have to wonder if that teacher could not effectively teach the material. Not understanding the material isn't always the student's fault. At my son's high school, all of the kids scored a 5 on BC Calc from the most recent stats that I could find. I am sure they did not all receive A's in class because the teachers are tough graders. I do think, though, part of the problem is that schools cannot always find good teachers.

 

Also, some schools do offer the AP class but a student opts to take a non-AP class. My son chose to take an honors intensive writing class this year instead of AP Lit. so that he could keep honing his writing. It is not an easy class at all but it is also not an AP class.

 

Our public high school chooses not to allow freshman and sophomores to take AP classes except in unusual circumstances. They do not believe it is developmentally appropriate for most students to take college-level classes and they worry that parents will pressure their children to take on too much, too soon. Many parents are already doing that. The school has students who take all four years early bird classes, no lunch, and full year courses during summer (not remedial and sometimes AP). Some of the kids are under a lot of pressure to please their parents and it isn't healthy.

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I think the College Board is way overstepping, and overestimating its influence. NOTHING will come of test results, whetehr they be aggregated with other data or not.

 

The College board is in no position to "advance readiness" of students or "do something about it" - nor should it be. This is the task of the schools. The CB should stay out of it. The only thing its programs are going to do is create more testing, more test takers, and possibly better test scores through more targeted test preparation - none of which is going to do one iota for college readiness. These are skills that must be built up in schools, starting in the middle grades.

I have been feeling like the college board has already done too much, and taken over too much. SAT 2? Nuts! And are they just providing the AP exams, or writing what is supposed to be on them? I feel like they are a huge profit making scheme.

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I have been feeling like the college board has already done too much, and taken over too much. SAT 2? Nuts! And are they just providing the AP exams, or writing what is supposed to be on them? I feel like they are a huge profit making scheme.

 

Out of all of the different standardized tests, I feel like the SAT II's, especially in math and science, are the best indicator of determining whether a student has mastered the material necessary to begin college level work.

 

We were on a college trip last month with our boys.  One of the highly selective schools told us that they place more weight on the SAT II's than the actual SAT.

 

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From what I've seen, sometimes AP classes are not offered because the teachers cannot teach them. IOW, the teachers do not understand their subject well enough to teach it effectively. I recall Kathy in Richmond having to reteach calculus to her daughter's friend who had received all A's in her Calc BC class but a 1 on the exam.

 

Now this would be a really interesting statistic for the College Board to publish:  How many students, based on PSAT results, should, statistically speaking, do well on the AP Calc exam, but actually bomb the exam.  Or, more to the point, what schools have an unusually high percentage of students in this category.

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Now this would be a really interesting statistic for the College Board to publish: How many students, based on PSAT results, should, statistically speaking, do well on the AP Calc exam, but bomb the exam. Or, more to the point, what schools have an unusually high percentage of students in this category.

That stat would mean more than simply how many don't take AP cal. The irony is that CCSS state that alg 2 is the benchmark for college readiness.

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Now this would be a really interesting statistic for the College Board to publish:  How many students, based on PSAT results, should, statistically speaking, do well on the AP Calc exam, but bomb the exam.  Or, more to the point, what schools have an unusually high percentage of students in this category.

 

I don't think the math tested on the SAT or PSAT is at a high enough level to predict which students would do well in a calculus class. 

 

I would love to see a stat on how many students receive an A in their high school calc class, yet receive a 1 on the AP exam.  This happens frequently at my high school.  I have posted this before, but the year I asked for AP results, my public high school had 16/18 students get a 1 on the AP exam.  The highest score was a lone 3.  All students are required to take the AP exam.

 

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Out of all of the different standardized tests, I feel like the SAT II's, especially in math and science, are the best indicator of determining whether a student has mastered the material necessary to begin college level work.

 

 

I agree.

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Out of all of the different standardized tests, I feel like the SAT II's, especially in math and science, are the best indicator of determining whether a student has mastered the material necessary to begin college level work.

 

We were on a college trip last month with our boys.  One of the highly selective schools told us that they place more weight on the SAT II's than the actual SAT.

 

 

We are doing our preliminary college research, and I'm finding much more emphasis on SAT subject tests than APs. I wonder if this is why. Some even specify which SAT subject test are required for all applicants.

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Out of all of the different standardized tests, I feel like the SAT II's, especially in math and science, are the best indicator of determining whether a student has mastered the material necessary to begin college level work.

 

We were on a college trip last month with our boys.  One of the highly selective schools told us that they place more weight on the SAT II's than the actual SAT.

 

 

Why do you think the SAT II's are a better indicator? I would think the AP Physics C exam would be considered more difficult than the SAT II Physics exam because AP Physics C is calculus based. The SAT II Math 2 does not cover calc, so same with AP BC Calc, no?

 

My son scored 800 on both the SAT II Physics and Math 2 exams and thought they were easy. He has AP Physics C now (both parts) and it is definitely tougher than the non-calculus based class he took his freshman year.

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Regarding dual enrollment, in my opinion there is nothing like taking actual college classes on a college campus as excellent preparation for college readiness at the next level.   I've also wondered what percentage of high school students take advantage of DE and while this study I'm referencing is more from the point of view of how many 2 and 4 year institutions offer dual enrollment, some of the stats within can give us a pretty good idea.

 

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013002.pdf

 

This is the part of the study which is pertinent to the percent of students taking DE classes.

 

Selected Findings
This section presents selected findings on dual enrollment programs and courses at 2-year and 4-year Title IV eligible degree-granting postsecondary institutions for the 12-month 2010–11 academic year.
 
• During the 12-month 2010–11 academic year, 53 percent of all institutions reported high school students took courses for college credit within or outside of dual enrollment programs (table 1).
 
5 Forty-six percent of all institutions reported that high school students took courses for college credit within a dual enrollment program, and 28 percent of institutions reported that high school students took courses for college credit outside a dual enrollment program. Institutions reported that approximately 1,277,100 high school students took courses for college credit within a dual enrollment program and approximately 136,400 high school students took courses for college credit outside a dual enrollment program during the 12-month 2010–11 academic year. Enrollments reported are unduplicated counts of students.
 
6 • Among institutions with a dual enrollment program, 83 percent reported courses within the program were taught at the college campus, 64 percent reported courses were taught at the high school campus, and 48 percent reported courses were taught through distance education (table 2).
 
7 • Among institutions with dual enrollment programs that had at least some instruction offered on high school campuses, 45 percent reported courses taught by both high school and college instructors, 34 percent reported high school instructors only, and 21 percent reported college instructors only (table 3).
 
•  Eighty-seven percent of institutions that reported high school instructors taught courses within the dual enrollment program(s) indicated that the instructors’ minimum qualifications were the same as those required for college instructors (table 4).
 
•Forty-four percent of institutions reported that the typical pattern of high school enrollments in the dual enrollment program was one course per academic term, 18 percent reported that they typical pattern of high school enrollments in the dual enrollment programs was two courses per academic term, and 3 percent reported that the typical pattern of high school enrollments in the dual enrollment program was three or more courses per academic term (table 5).
 
•  Ninety-five percent of institutions with dual enrollment programs awarded college credit for courses immediately after course completion, while 4 percent awarded college credit or courses upon students’ enrollment at the institution after high school graduation (table 6).
 
•  Most institutions reported that high school students in grades 11 and 12 were eligible to take courses within the dual enrollment programs (91 and 97 percent, respectively) (table 7). Forty percent of institutions reported eligibility for high school students in grade 10, and 25 percent reported eligibility for high school students in grade 9.
 
•  Sixty percent of institutions reported that a minimum high school grade point average (GPA) was required in order to participate in the dual enrollment program (table 8). Other academic eligibility requirements reported by institutions included passing a college placement test (45 percent), a minimum score on a standardized test (43 percent), or a letter of recommendation (41 percent).
 
According to NCES http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=65 the total number of high school students in 2010 was approximately 54.9 million. So the percent of those taking DE, whether on a college campus or in high school was approximately 2.3%.  Only 3 percent of the institutions reported that the students were typically taking 3 or more college courses.  These numbers have likely increased since 2010, but this is what I could find.
 
Above I didn't add in those taking college courses outside of a dual enrollment program, so including those students the percent would be approx. 2.57% of high school students taking a college course either on the college campus or within a high school.
 

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Why do you think the SAT II's are a better indicator? I would think the AP Physics C exam would be considered more difficult than the SAT II Physics exam because AP Physics C is calculus based. The SAT II Math 2 does not cover calc, so same with AP BC Calc, no?

 

My son scored 800 on both the SAT II Physics and Math 2 exams and thought they were easy. He has AP Physics C now (both parts) and it is definitely tougher than the non-calculus based class he took his freshman year.

I think the distinction is between indicating being prepared for college level work or getting credit for college level work. subject tests are not normally equated with receiving college credit.

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I've read that SAT IIs are preferred over AP tests simply because not all students take AP classes and this is a way to compare high school students, across the board, in regards to high school level work.   I agree though that colleges should be able to accept AP test results in lieu of SAT IIs. 

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As a parent of a low-achieving student who always wants to do the bare minimum amount of work, I don't find this to be true at all. 

 

You are talking about an underacheiver. Underacheivers do participate minimally.  I'm talking about nonparticipants...the students that take the bus in to school, because they are doing personal business on the premises.  These are the students who tell the kindy teacher to go fly a kite in colorful language as they do their own thang. They do not participate in any teacher-directed classroom activity at all. The mind never engages.

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Now this would be a really interesting statistic for the College Board to publish:  How many students, based on PSAT results, should, statistically speaking, do well on the AP Calc exam, but actually bomb the exam.  Or, more to the point, what schools have an unusually high percentage of students in this category.

 

Isn't that info available already in the form of the CogAT results?  Students who score very high, but aren't in honors? Or students who score very high in nonverbal, but don' t in the verbal or math due to lack of opportunity to learn the material.

 

In my district, its common for boys who are college bound not to be in honors or AP English until 12th. They don't have the teacher pleasing behavior as sixth graders, the only other entry point into honors. They will all score higher on the SAT than half the girls in the honors program...and they get the AP English seat in 12th because the girls are protecting their gpa by giving up their seats...hand holding with the tutor couldn't get them the 3 in AP English 11.  I'm with Jay Matthews, there is a whole lot of placement by daddy's pedigree going on, instead of placement by instructional need.

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Has anyone seen a breakdown of benchmark scores by SAT subjection rather than the combined score?  I know I've seen it in past years, but I can't find one today.

 

I think that especially for older readers, who tested when there were only two subsections, it doesn't really register what numbers the individual benchmark scores are.

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I've been concerned. When I read that students passing the PARCC ***had*** to be placed in non-remedial courses when accepted into college, I was alarmed by the fact somehow colleges lost their rights to place students appropriately.

 

So who gets the blame when the potentially unprepared students (those who would not have passed the placement test) fail the course?

 

I don't think the math tested on the SAT or PSAT is at a high enough level to predict which students would do well in a calculus class. 

 

I would love to see a stat on how many students receive an A in their high school calc class, yet receive a 1 on the AP exam.  This happens frequently at my high school.  I have posted this before, but the year I asked for AP results, my public high school had 16/18 students get a 1 on the AP exam.  The highest score was a lone 3.  All students are required to take the AP exam.

 

 

This happened frequently when our school offered AP as well.  Their solution was to eliminate AP and switch to DE - using the same teachers, but now those teachers can award credit for the A rather than the kids having to prove anything via an AP test.  IMO, the kids have NOT learned any more than before (as a group).

 

Fortunately, with Calc, most schools have a placement test and many higher level schools do not accept DE credits.

 

I think the distinction is between indicating being prepared for college level work or getting credit for college level work. subject tests are not normally equated with receiving college credit.

 

One ought to remember that at higher selective schools, the assumption is that the students are coming in with an AP foundation - not necessarily Physics C, but AP Physics in general (and Bio, Chem, etc).  When kids get into many of those 101 classes, if they do not have the deeper foundation, they are going to have a LOT more than the other students to learn (foundation + new stuff).

 

For less selective schools, this isn't an issue as the 101 class will essentially duplicate a good AP/DE class.

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This happened frequently when our school offered AP as well.  Their solution was to eliminate AP and switch to DE - using the same teachers, but now those teachers can award credit for the A rather than the kids having to prove anything via an AP test.  IMO, the kids have NOT learned any more than before (as a group).

 

 

Here DE is not taught at the high school or by high school teachers. It is on the campus of the community college, with their professors and the students are integrated into regular classes. There is no distinction between a regularly enrolled student and dual enrolled student. Professors aren't informed of the student's status, either. 

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One ought to remember that at higher selective schools, the assumption is that the students are coming in with an AP foundation - not necessarily Physics C, but AP Physics in general (and Bio, Chem, etc). When kids get into many of those 101 classes, if they do not have the deeper foundation, they are going to have a LOT more than the other students to learn (foundation + new stuff).

 

For less selective schools, this isn't an issue as the 101 class will essentially duplicate a good AP/DE class.

Snowbeltmom's post was in reference to preference of subject test scores over SAT scores as indicators of college readiness. I meant for my post to MBM to show that she wasn't making a statement about APs but subject tests compared to SATs for demonstrating the ability to succeed in college.

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Has anyone seen a breakdown of benchmark scores by SAT subjection rather than the combined score?  I know I've seen it in past years, but I can't find one today.

 

I think that especially for older readers, who tested when there were only two subsections, it doesn't really register what numbers the individual benchmark scores are.

 

I found what I was looking for in an older report on the benchmarks.  The composite benchmark score is 1550.  There is also an individual benchmark score of 500 for each individual section. 

 

For students who are scoring below 500, I'm not sure that the best use of their time is an AP class, which is supposed to be taught on a college level.  I'm thinking that a better use of their time in high school might be better mastery of reading, writing and lower level mathematics.  Students who are struggling through algebra because they don't understand how to work with fractions yet are going to find a lot of frustration within AP Chemistry or AP Physics.  Students who are not able to read a novel in a week or two, with good comprehension of what happened and at least a little bit of sensitivity to how the novel conveyed things through tone and figurative language is going to have a tough time with AP English Literature.

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