article: College Board

[creekland]

Creekland, some highly selective schools provide a placement test for students who have completed some calculus in high school.  This is given to students who took AP or dual enrolled in college courses or those who feel they've covered the course material sufficiently.  Those who pass the placement test do not need to repeat what they've already learned.  Dd has no need to re-take Calc I, II or III. Some colleges and universities do provide extremely rigorous theoretical versions of the regular calculus courses, but even then few students choose that path as opposed to moving onto upper level math classes.  Placement tests are available for the sciences, languages and other subject areas as well.

 

I think they all provide a placement test for Calc (not sure if they all offer credit or just placement).  I think they all do placement for languages too.

 

I've yet to see a placement test for Bio/Chem, etc, but perhaps some have them.

 

My guy submitted a writing response to get placed into his writing course.  I'm not sure if that was required or just recommended.

[Teachin'Mine]

I think they all provide a placement test for Calc (not sure if they all offer credit or just placement).  I think they all do placement for languages too.

 

I've yet to see a placement test for Bio/Chem, etc, but perhaps some have them.

 

My guy submitted a writing response to get placed into his writing course.  I'm not sure if that was required or just recommended.

 

As Princeton is considered to have a top math program, I can use them as an example.  From their website regarding chemistry placement.

 

Advanced Placement

A student who received an Advanced Placement Examination score of 4 qualifies for one unit of advanced placement and is eligible to take CHM 215 Advanced General Chemistry-Honors. A student who received an Advanced Placement Examination score of 5 qualifies for two units of advanced placement and is eligible to take CHM 301 or 303. One term of advanced placement satisfies the B.S.E. chemistry requirement.

A departmental placement examination is given during Freshman Orientation Week for students who did not have an opportunity to take the Chemistry Advanced Placement Exam.

 

Most highly selective colleges do not give any credit for work done in high school.  Some do.  But placement beyond what they've already learned is what most students want anyway.

[8filltheheart]

I don't think it is that absurd. There are a very limited number of public high schools that offer advanced academics...many of them have had their programs dismantled in recent years, so that more money could be put into sped and remedial. Here we lost IB and honors math/AP Sciences. Students wanting to go into engineering/science are getting their butts kicked at State U, as they are so unprepared now that honors math and science are not offered. Students who do classes with JHU-CTY and the like though, are going on to very selective colleges and doing well. They have the ability, but the school is not offering the quality education. I suspect the same in many of the area high schools. It is well known that in the five surrounding counties, there is only 1 school that will prepare the child for a selective education, and the seats are limited in their program. Be interesting to see the map.

And that is all due to the SAT? (I'm missing the connection to how the SAT is responsible for improving the quality of k12 education.)

[TechWife]

This is part of the variability problem with DE for the colleges.  They often have no idea whether the student's course was a worthy one or not.  Scores on the AP exam at least show a benchmark that can be compared.

 

 

Here the community colleges and the universities (public and private) have an agreement as to which courses will transfer (basically all of the gen. ed. classes). If the student takes one of those courses and makes a grade of C or better, then they transfer. We have two highly selective state universities - UNC Chapel Hill and NC State, that are included in this agreement. 

 

I do have a friend who's daughter took five AP course and made 4's & 5's on all of the exams. She is at Davidson now & they would only give her credit for three of the courses. If she had done DE instead, she would have had all of the credits transfer. 

 

I don't see the AP exams as much of a benchmark, though.  I think it demonstrates how well someone can take a test on a particular day, not how much the person knows the material. The AP courses I have heard about in our public schools teach to the test by the teacher's own admission, which is necessary in the context of the AP exam structure. I only know one student who took AP exams that had not studied in that manner and she came back to the US from the Swiss school system. Her first May back in the states, she took the German AP exam cold and made a 5 (she had only been here a few months). This spring she will take the French and Latin AP exams, all based on what she knows from real study and real life experience and honest efforts to master the subject at hand, not just to make a minimum score on an exam. 

 

So really, I guess maybe it depends on whether the student wants the college credit or wants the exam score. They show different things, IMO. 

[Crimson Wife]

  It is not as if only 20 schools in the country are responsible for educating the populace.

 

The top 25% of students or so are now aiming for elite schools. This is a big change from the situation even when my parents were in high school in the '60's and early '70's. So while only a tiny fraction of U.S. students actually attend an ultra-selective college, a much larger number apply and their parents are pushing high schools to offer the rigorous coursework needed to have a shot.

[regentrude]

I think they all provide a placement test for Calc (not sure if they all offer credit or just placement).  I think they all do placement for languages too.

 

I've yet to see a placement test for Bio/Chem, etc, but perhaps some have them.

 

My guy submitted a writing response to get placed into his writing course.  I'm not sure if that was required or just recommended.

 

DD's school had a placement test for Chem which all incoming freshmen had to take before orientation week.

Math placement was by placement exam, and so was foreign language.

[regentrude]

Most highly selective colleges do not give any credit for work done in high school.  Some do.  But placement beyond what they've already learned is what most students want anyway.

 

Yes, that was our experience. None of DD's 30+ college credits froma  4 year university transferred- BUT the 11 credit hours of physics got her placed into Honors Physics, which is worlds better than the regular physics class and where she learns a ton.

[TechWife]

 

 

Our public high school chooses not to allow freshman and sophomores to take AP classes except in unusual circumstances. They do not believe it is developmentally appropriate for most students to take college-level classes and they worry that parents will pressure their children to take on too much, too soon. Many parents are already doing that. 

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

I think this is fantastic! I totally agree with them. 

[Teachin'Mine]

The problem with high schools prohibiting 9th and 10th grades from taking AP courses is that while it may not be appropriate placement for most in their grades, it would be the best placement for some.  Should schools eliminate sped because the majority of students wouldn't benefit from it?  IMO schools should be flexible (and in the above example it does allow for unusual circumstances) in what is offered to advanced kids and they should be diligent in separating the truly advanced and motivated from the ones being pushed onward by their parents.  As much as I am not in favor of standardized tests in general, in this instance a baseline score could help to give the school some concrete reason why Little Johnny doesn't belong in the AP class in 9th grade despite the parents' insistence that he does. 

[TechWife]

The problem with high schools prohibiting 9th and 10th grades from taking AP courses is that while it may not be appropriate placement for most in their grades, it would be the best placement for some.  Should schools eliminate sped because the majority of students wouldn't benefit from it?  IMO schools should be flexible (and in the above example it does allow for unusual circumstances) in what is offered to advanced kids and they should be diligent in separating the truly advanced and motivated from the ones being pushed onward by their parents.  As much as I am not in favor of standardized tests in general, in this instance a baseline score could help to give the school some concrete reason why Little Johnny doesn't belong in the AP class in 9th grade despite the parents' insistence that he does. 

 

I do think that it is a rare 14 year old who is ready for college level work. If they are, by all means, have at it. But honestly, most aren't. I think that AP students should be the exceptional students in all scenarios because I also think it's rare that a 16 year old is ready for college level work. In a word, I think the AP system has distorted perceptions of exactly what college level work is. 

I do think that it is a rare 14 year old who is ready for college level work. If they are, by all means, have at it. But honestly, most aren't. I think that AP students should be the exceptional students in all scenarios because I also think it's rare that a 16 year old is ready for college level work. In a word, I think the AP system has distorted perceptions of exactly what college level work is. 

 

Some AP classes are more college level than others.  I think the ones that tend to be taken by 9th and 10th graders are the ones that have less rigor.  It is telling that the UK college admissions system divides AP classes into two tiers, and the less rigorous tier earns less than half the number of admissions points that the more rigorous classes do.

[Teachin'Mine]

Honestly I don't think we'll ever know how rare it is or not.  As such a miniscule percent of high school students take DE courses, it's hard to say how many would benefit as it's available to relatively few.  I agree about AP not always being college level work.  Perhaps seldom.

[Laura Corin]

Some AP classes are more college level than others.  I think the ones that tend to be taken by 9th and 10th graders are the ones that have less rigor.  It is telling that the UK college admissions system divides AP classes into two tiers, and the less rigorous tier earns less than half the number of admissions points that the more rigorous classes do.

 

Yes.  This is the case.  The details are here.

 

L

[8filltheheart]

The SAT showed that there are intelligent kids out there in poverty land who would do well with having the opportunity to take advanced classes.  It is the key test for students who are NOT in honors to show their qualifications here....of course they have to wait until a pedigreed student vacates a seat if their parents aren't up at the board meeting demanding to know why there are not enough seats in honors for students who score above 650 in verbal or math.

 

 

The top 25% of students or so are now aiming for elite schools. This is a big change from the situation even when my parents were in high school in the '60's and early '70's. So while only a tiny fraction of U.S. students actually attend an ultra-selective college, a much larger number apply and their parents are pushing high schools to offer the rigorous coursework needed to have a shot.

 

I guess I am completely dense b/c I do not see how either of these demonstrate a direct correlation between the SAT's existence and the classes being offered in the local high school. If schools are reducing the honors classes, how is that directly related to the SAT?  Are they using poor SAT scores to eliminate classes?   (If so, that is circular logic.  They fail to teach, so kids fail to test well, so we reduce course offerings.)   Are SATs screening all student access into honors classes?   (I would find that strange

 

"School" still matters for the elites.   I tried searching for the 25% stat the CW used b/c it seems illogical since even most kids in the top 10% are rejected.   I couldn't find a stat stating how many kids apply to Ivies, let alone to elite schools.   However, there were plenty of articles which stated the stats in terms of particular high schools.  6% of Harvards 2017 class was from just 10 high schools.  11% of schools with students admitted to Harvard sent 36% of the students.   74% only sent 1 student.  (That doesn't sound like the SAT made admissions equitable.  It sounds like it made a crack, not opended the door.)   

 

Even if 25% are applying and parents are pushing for the more rigorous courses, that is not the influence of the SAT but the desire for more elite education.  The SAT might have offered that crack, but the SAT is not controlling the quality of the coursework in the classroom.

 

 

I do think that it is a rare 14 year old who is ready for college level work. If they are, by all means, have at it. But honestly, most aren't. I think that AP students should be the exceptional students in all scenarios because I also think it's rare that a 16 year old is ready for college level work. In a word, I think the AP system has distorted perceptions of exactly what college level work is. 

 

I also disagree.  I do not have a houseful of geniuses by any stretch.   But, I have had at least 2 kids that could or did take AP level work prior to 11th/12th grade.   My ds took two of the supposedly hardest APs in 10th, cal bc and chem.  My current 10th grader could easily take AP English comp and AP lit.   With effort, she could take AP French.  I am just not a huge AP fan b/c I think many of the courses contain way too much busy work, so I don't push them at all.   Ds took the BC exam after AoPS (which he would have taken anyway) and he found the chem course a great class and not difficult.

 

I think there are more kids than we know b/c the school system confines kids' abilities to learn and self-accelerate.

[snowbeltmom]

 

I think there are more kids than we know b/c the school system confines kids' abilities to learn and self-accelerate.

 

:iagree:

 

[Laura Corin]

 I think that AP students should be the exceptional students in all scenarios because I also think it's rare that a 16 year old is ready for college level work. 

 

AP exams are roughly equivalent to UK A levels, which are taken by all English university-bound pupils, as they are usually necessary for entrance.  Around 40% of UK teenagers end up going to university.

 

L

[FairProspects]

Speaking of colleges and testing. You all are just going to love this. We had discussed that it couldn't happen to colleges, but it looks like they can be forced to accept the SBAC & PARCC as evidence of college readiness. Now if you pass the SBAC in WA, you can't be placed in remedial courses in college, no matter your actual skill level.

 

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/educationlab/2014/10/07/common-core-tests-now-a-ticket-out-of-college-remedial-classes/

[MBM]

The problem with high schools prohibiting 9th and 10th grades from taking AP courses is that while it may not be appropriate placement for most in their grades, it would be the best placement for some.  Should schools eliminate sped because the majority of students wouldn't benefit from it?  IMO schools should be flexible (and in the above example it does allow for unusual circumstances) in what is offered to advanced kids and they should be diligent in separating the truly advanced and motivated from the ones being pushed onward by their parents.  As much as I am not in favor of standardized tests in general, in this instance a baseline score could help to give the school some concrete reason why Little Johnny doesn't belong in the AP class in 9th grade despite the parents' insistence that he does. 

 

It depends what the school offers. The highest level of classes here are challenging and there is no need to take an AP class early on. At some schools AP classes are the best they offer but that's not true at my son's school. I agree with others who believe that it's entirely possible to be challenged in non-AP courses. What ultimately matters is what is taught. APs are not necessarily more thorough or deeper than other courses.

 

Our high school does make exceptions and will allow some younger students to take APs, but they want to make sure students are truly ready academically, and more importantly, emotionally. An awful lot is going on in the teenage years while they begin the transition to adulthood -- about a ten year process -- and it's important for adults to be knowledgeable and sensitive to that. This school is looking at the well-being of the student decades down the road, not just the few years until college. They have very good reasons for doing what they do.

 

Our school also does extensive testing at the end of 8th grade for placement purposes. Students are then tracked into three levels for each subject based on those scores, junior high teacher recommendations, and parent recommendations. Parents may move their child up one level in only one core subject, and if their child cannot handle the work, the student will be moved down. One-half of my son's English class moved down a level by the middle of the semester because the class was too demanding and their parents had placed them up a level. Students may also opt to move down themselves, or if they demonstrate it, move up after the semester which does occur. The students seem to be placed well and I don't hear many complaints from the students or parents I know.

 

APs can be great classes but I don't think they're the end all, be all. It is nice to get college credit for them if a school allows, though.

[Matryoshka]

Speaking of colleges and testing. You all are just going to love this. We had discussed that it couldn't happen to colleges, but it looks like they can be forced to accept the SBAC & PARCC as evidence of college readiness. Now if you pass the SBAC in WA, you can't be placed in remedial courses in college, no matter your actual skill level.

 

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/educationlab/2014/10/07/common-core-tests-now-a-ticket-out-of-college-remedial-classes/

 

How can they force private colleges to do this?

[Teachin'Mine]

I know little about AP classes, but what I do know is that if an advanced student doesn't have the opportunity to home school, and their school won't allow them to advance in subjects due to their age or grade level, then they likely won't be learning at their appropriate level.   Of course it depends on what the school offers as an alternative.  Homeschoolers can study at home at a level more rigorous than AP and, in my opinion, actual college courses are even better for those who need the academic challenge and are emotionally mature enough and would thrive in the social atmosphere. 
 

[Mabelen]

I do think that it is a rare 14 year old who is ready for college level work. If they are, by all means, have at it. But honestly, most aren't. I think that AP students should be the exceptional students in all scenarios because I also think it's rare that a 16 year old is ready for college level work. In a word, I think the AP system has distorted perceptions of exactly what college level work is.

My dd's High School feeds Freshmen who are in the highest math track into the AP Bio class successfully. The next regular AP entry point is AP European History at the Sophomore level, again succesfully. Exceptional students are allowed to take other/additional AP classes Freshmen and Sophomore level on an case by case scenario. It is a high achieving school but it is not by any means the highest achieving High School in our area. That is to say that our schools have a good track record with AP exam results that show that many Freshmen and Sophomores are ready, willing and eager for that level of work.

[Mabelen]

Yes.  This is the case.  The details are here.

 

L

Interesting, my dd's High School actually has two of the higher level AP clases as AP entry points, AP Bio and AP European History, and they do so in the first and second year of High School respectively.

[FairProspects]

How can they force private colleges to do this?

 

They can't. It is only for public colleges but will still have a large impact.

[regentrude]

Speaking of colleges and testing. You all are just going to love this. We had discussed that it couldn't happen to colleges, but it looks like they can be forced to accept the SBAC & PARCC as evidence of college readiness. Now if you pass the SBAC in WA, you can't be placed in remedial courses in college, no matter your actual skill level.

 

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/educationlab/2014/10/07/common-core-tests-now-a-ticket-out-of-college-remedial-classes/

 

All that accomplishes will be to increase the number of students who fail the intro courses for which they are not prepared.

The smart ones will recognize they need remediation; the not so smart ones will try again and again to retake the course for which they do not have the grounding.

 

Let's only hope colleges do not lower the standards in response to this nonsense.

 

[Bootsie]

My dd's High School feeds Freshmen who are in the highest math track into the AP Bio class successfully. The next regular AP entry point is AP European History at the Sophomore level, again succesfully. Exceptional students are allowed to take other/additional AP classes Freshmen and Sophomore level on an case by case scenario. It is a high achieving school but it is not by any means the highest achieving High School in our area. That is to say that our schools have a good track record with AP exam results that show that many Freshmen and Sophomores are ready, willing and eager for that level of work.

That freshmen and sophomores at a school have a good track record with AP exam results shows that those schools have students who are willing to put in the work and have teachers who are willing to prepare students to make high scores on AP exams.  It does not, in my opinion, show that those students are ready to do college level work.  I have seen many students who passed AP courses with more than a 100 average and who made 3, 4, or 5 on the AP exam who are not prepared to do college level work when they enter my college classroom.  I have found that these students often have a false sense of what college level work is.  I also find that they have often missed out on some very basic fundamental skills which will help them be successful in college classes.  An example of this is a history course in which time is spent on two things: (1)worksheets, reviews, and other multiple choice exam prep and (2)practice on how to write an essay to pass the AP exam.  These students may be better served learning how to read the textbook, outlining skills, etc. rather than how to pass a particular test.  

[TechWife]

My dd's High School feeds Freshmen who are in the highest math track into the AP Bio class successfully. The next regular AP entry point is AP European History at the Sophomore level, again succesfully. Exceptional students are allowed to take other/additional AP classes Freshmen and Sophomore level on an case by case scenario. It is a high achieving school but it is not by any means the highest achieving High School in our area. That is to say that our schools have a good track record with AP exam results that show that many Freshmen and Sophomores are ready, willing and eager for that level of work.

 

I guess that really feeds my perceptions that AP courses may not, in fact, be college level work. There really shouldn't be a large number of students in the ninth grade doing these courses if it is truly college level work. Something is wrong - either the AP exam system is faulty or college is a lot easier than it used to be.  A good track record with AP exams doesn't mean that the students have, indeed, completed college level work. It means the students know how to do well on an exam. 

[TechWife]

 

I also disagree.  I do not have a houseful of geniuses by any stretch.   But, I have had at least 2 kids that could or did take AP level work prior to 11th/12th grade.   My ds took two of the supposedly hardest APs in 10th, cal bc and chem.  My current 10th grader could easily take AP English comp and AP lit.   With effort, she could take AP French.  I am just not a huge AP fan b/c I think many of the courses contain way too much busy work, so I don't push them at all.   Ds took the BC exam after AoPS (which he would have taken anyway) and he found the chem course a great class and not difficult.

 

I think there are more kids than we know b/c the school system confines kids' abilities to learn and self-accelerate.

 

No offense to your children, but I think this is a reflection on the AP system. It seems to me that the tests might not, in fact, test a student's ability to complete college level work, but instead, test their ability to take a test. 

 

I do agree with you that the school system isn't friendly to a child going at their own pace, especially when that pace is faster than what they consider to be the average or even just faster than the slowest learner. It's the nature of group centered education in our country. It simply isn't set up to allow kids to pace themselves when they outpace their classmates. Not only that, but creativity has been legislated out of the schools so that teachers and administrators can't come up with out of the ordinary educational scenarios for children who don't fit the mold. Instead, they must teach to the test. I fear that as new teachers come on board that have been exposed to common core during their college education, that they will be even less creative and less able to meet the needs of individual students than teachers who were trained before CCS and then even before NCLB. Teaching as an art may indeed be dying out.  

[TechWife]

The top 25% of students or so are now aiming for elite schools. This is a big change from the situation even when my parents were in high school in the '60's and early '70's. So while only a tiny fraction of U.S. students actually attend an ultra-selective college, a much larger number apply and their parents are pushing high schools to offer the rigorous coursework needed to have a shot.

 

But should they be? Maybe we all just need a reality check. 

[snowbeltmom]

No offense to your children, but I think this is a reflection on the AP system. It seems to me that the tests might not, in fact, test a student's ability to complete college level work, but instead, test their ability to take a test. 

 

 

 

I don't mean any offense with this question, but have you actually seen an AP exam for Chemistry, Physics C, or Calc BC? 

 

I have seen all three of those exams and don't agree with your assessment that these exams test a student's ability to take a test.

 

[creekland]

Here the community colleges and the universities (public and private) have an agreement as to which courses will transfer (basically all of the gen. ed. classes). If the student takes one of those courses and makes a grade of C or better, then they transfer. We have two highly selective state universities - UNC Chapel Hill and NC State, that are included in this agreement. 

 

I do have a friend who's daughter took five AP course and made 4's & 5's on all of the exams. She is at Davidson now & they would only give her credit for three of the courses. If she had done DE instead, she would have had all of the credits transfer. 

 

 

This is definitely an example of "know your target college" if you want credit to transfer.  At my oldest and youngest's colleges either AP or DE would give credit if the score/grade were high enough.  At middle son's college only AP gives credit (for some courses) - none for DE.

 

At our state schools including Pitt and Penn St, either will give credit.

 

I do think that it is a rare 14 year old who is ready for college level work. If they are, by all means, have at it. But honestly, most aren't. I think that AP students should be the exceptional students in all scenarios because I also think it's rare that a 16 year old is ready for college level work. In a word, I think the AP system has distorted perceptions of exactly what college level work is. 

 

Sixteen year olds can definitely be ready for college level classwork IME.  It all depends on their academic talent and their foundation.  My 16 year old was leading the study groups in his cc classes (at the college) and also getting 5s on his AP tests.  At his college he's only marred his 4.0 GPA by one A- and that's with taking the tough "weeder" courses for pre-med (including Orgo).  He's not the norm for our area, but he's hardly abnormal at his college.

 

And there could be others like him in our area if our ps foundation were better.  He wasn't all that much "smarter" than his "smart" peers growing up.

 

 

Honestly I don't think we'll ever know how rare it is or not.  As such a miniscule percent of high school students take DE courses, it's hard to say how many would benefit as it's available to relatively few.  I agree about AP not always being college level work.  Perhaps seldom.

 

APs are generally equivalent to college level work for 101 classes at less selective schools from what I've seen via returning students.  If one takes the AP course and gets a 4 or 5, they are often bored in those equivalent classes as there is rarely anything new.  At more selective schools, the AP level is often the foundation that is expected before the 101 class at least for "usual" classes (Calc, Bio, Chem).  Skipping it and heading into the next class can be problematic as not all the material was covered.  I see it as a good thing that more colleges are doing placement tests.  This will ultimately help ALL the students figure out where they fit in rather than guessing.

[TechWife]

I don't mean any offense with this question, but have you actually seen an AP exam for Chemistry, Physics C, or Calc BC? 

 

I have seen all three of those exams and don't agree with your assessment that these exams test a student's ability to take a test.

 

 

No, I haven't. I have seen prep books, which I realize aren't the same thing.

 

I imagine that there is variation in the quality of exams because the same people do not write every test. Going by what Laura Corin and others posted earlier, many have determined that there are apparent levels of difficulty within the AP exam system, so perhaps some of them truly reflect college level mastery and some don't. 

 

The only way I can think of to measure whether or not a an AP exam measures college level work would be to have a student sit for an AP exam and then have that same student sit for a final exam in the corresponding college course with no further preparation. I wonder if anyone has done this? It would be an interesting study for a university to undertake. 

 

ETA: No offense taken.

[8filltheheart]

No offense to your children, but I think this is a reflection on the AP system. It seems to me that the tests might not, in fact, test a student's ability to complete college level work, but instead, test their ability to take a test.

 

I do agree with you that the school system isn't friendly to a child going at their own pace, especially when that pace is faster than what they consider to be the average or even just faster than the slowest learner. It's the nature of group centered education in our country. It simply isn't set up to allow kids to pace themselves when they outpace their classmates. Not only that, but creativity has been legislated out of the schools so that teachers and administrators can't come up with out of the ordinary educational scenarios for children who don't fit the mold. Instead, they must teach to the test. I fear that as new teachers come on board that have been exposed to common core during their college education, that they will be even less creative and less able to meet the needs of individual students than teachers who were trained before CCS and then even before NCLB. Teaching as an art may indeed be dying out.

No offense taken, but your assessment is incorrect. Considering that in 11th and 12th ds followed those 2 AP exams in with multivariable cal, diffEQ, linear alg, cal physics 1&2, modern physics, and physical mechanics at 2 different universities...with consistently the highest grade in each class demonstrates that he mastered the math at w university level anyway.

 

My dd is functioning on a college level. She read Paradise Lost in 8th grade and has only been increasing her levels of complexity since. She is also is an accomplished writer. Her compositions are definitely at an undergrad level.

 

If they had been in the school system, neither would have stood out as "gifted" when they were younger. If anything, ds would have been labeled as LD bc he is severely dyslexic.

[TechWife]

No offense taken, but your assessment is incorrect. Considering that in 11th and 12th ds followed those 2 AP exams in with multivariable cal, diffEQ, linear alg, cal physics 1&2, modern physics, and physical mechanics at 2 different universities...with consistently the highest grade in each class demonstrates that he mastered the math at w university level anyway.

 

My dd is functioning on a college level. She read Paradise Lost in 8th grade and has only been increasing her levels of complexity since. She is also is an accomplished writer. Her compositions are definitely at an undergrad level.

 

If they had been in the school system, neither would have stood out as "gifted" when they were younger. If anything, ds would have been labeled as LD bc he is severely dyslexic.

 

Is it possible that your kids are outliers? Do you know if other kids they tested with had that same success in college? I'm honestly curious. 

 

Has that been your observation with many of the students you know that take AP exams in other subjects? I ask because It hasn't been mine. I've talked to a lot of kids who come home from their first semester of college very surprised that it is much harder than the AP courses they took led them to believe. One, in fact, has gone back and taken the very course she tested out of with her AP exam score. The subjects they've talked about the most were literature and science, but I don't recall the exact courses within the subjects. My sample size is, of course, very small. 

 

As far as labels go, it's entirely possible for someone to test both academically gifted and learning disabled, but students are so much more than their labels that having one is a double-edged sword (my son has both of these labels, FWIW). They can be both freeing and restrictive at the same time. 

[8filltheheart]

Is it possible that your kids are outliers? Do you know if other kids they tested with had that same success in college? I'm honestly curious.

 

Has that been your observation with many of the students you know that take AP exams in other subjects? I ask because It hasn't been mine. I've talked to a lot of kids who come home from their first semester of college very surprised that it is much harder than the AP courses they took led them to believe. One, in fact, has gone back and taken the very course she tested out of with her AP exam score. The subjects they've talked about the most were literature and science, but I don't recall the exact courses within the subjects. My sample size is, of course, very small.

 

As far as labels go, it's entirely possible for someone to test both academically gifted and learning disabled, but students are so much more than their labels that having one is a double-edged sword (my son has both of these labels, FWIW). They can be both freeing and restrictive at the same time.

I do not believe my kids are outliers. What I believe the difference is is that my kids are solidly prepared. They can't simply do problems and call it done. I expect them to understand what they are doing. I expectmy kids to explain what they do. Schools teach to the test. I teach my kids. I didn't teach ds chem or cal, but his performance in those classes was built on his background.

[Caroline]

No, I haven't. I have seen prep books, which I realize aren't the same thing.

 

I imagine that there is variation in the quality of exams because the same people do not write every test. Going by what Laura Corin and others posted earlier, many have determined that there are apparent levels of difficulty within the AP exam system, so perhaps some of them truly reflect college level mastery and some don't. 

 

The only way I can think of to measure whether or not a an AP exam measures college level work would be to have a student sit for an AP exam and then have that same student sit for a final exam in the corresponding college course with no further preparation. I wonder if anyone has done this? It would be an interesting study for a university to undertake. 

 

ETA: No offense taken.

 

Actually, that is how they set up the scoring for the AP exams. Students who have just completed the college course take the exam. The scoring is set so a C=3, B=4, A=5. Now, of course, it isn't MIT students who are doing the exams, so...

[Teachin'Mine]

Creekland is this old info?  http://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/AdviserHandbook/TransferCrdt.html

 

Courses taken while a student was in high school which were sponsored by a college but were taught in the high school are not approved for transfer credit. However, students enrolled in college coursework on a college campus are eligible to receive transfer credit assuming the courses are completed with a grade of C or better and are approved. Students who believe their situations warrant an exception should always speak with a CCAS adviser. A special petition form is available for coursework taught in the high school. It requires a comprehensive letter of support from the appropriate faculty member. The final decision then is made by the Dean of the College.

 

It may be that this is a new policy and wasn't in effect when your son entered.  There's more info in the link about needing departmental approval and all of that.

[Teachin'Mine]

This is definitely an example of "know your target college" if you want credit to transfer.  At my oldest and youngest's colleges either AP or DE would give credit if the score/grade were high enough.  At middle son's college only AP gives credit (for some courses) - none for DE.

 

At our state schools including Pitt and Penn St, either will give credit.

 

 

Sixteen year olds can definitely be ready for college level classwork IME.  It all depends on their academic talent and their foundation.  My 16 year old was leading the study groups in his cc classes (at the college) and also getting 5s on his AP tests.  At his college he's only marred his 4.0 GPA by one A- and that's with taking the tough "weeder" courses for pre-med (including Orgo).  He's not the norm for our area, but he's hardly abnormal at his college.

 

And there could be others like him in our area if our ps foundation were better.  He wasn't all that much "smarter" than his "smart" peers growing up.

 

 

 

APs are generally equivalent to college level work for 101 classes at less selective schools from what I've seen via returning students.  If one takes the AP course and gets a 4 or 5, they are often bored in those equivalent classes as there is rarely anything new.  At more selective schools, the AP level is often the foundation that is expected before the 101 class at least for "usual" classes (Calc, Bio, Chem).  Skipping it and heading into the next class can be problematic as not all the material was covered.  I see it as a good thing that more colleges are doing placement tests.  This will ultimately help ALL the students figure out where they fit in rather than guessing.

 

One of the reasons that I don't think APs are generally college level work is that while the content may be equivalent, the student is usually taking twice as long to learn the material.  There are exceptions, like taking Calculus BC in one year without having taken calculus AB previously, and there may be some high schools which offer the AP courses in half year block scheduling, but other than that, actual college courses move twice as fast.   The pacing does make a difference and really surprises (not pleasantly) some students, who had multiple AP classes, once they get to college.

 

I thoroughly agree about placement tests being the best way to place students appropriately.

[wapiti]

Creekland is this old info?  http://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/AdviserHandbook/TransferCrdt.html

 

Courses taken while a student was in high school which were sponsored by a college but were taught in the high school are not approved for transfer credit. 

 

I'm getting confused :tongue_smilie: but UR has a different page describing AP credit, if that is what you were looking for.

[snowbeltmom]

Is it possible that your kids are outliers? Do you know if other kids they tested with had that same success in college? I'm honestly curious. 

 

Has that been your observation with many of the students you know that take AP exams in other subjects? I ask because It hasn't been mine. I've talked to a lot of kids who come home from their first semester of college very surprised that it is much harder than the AP courses they took led them to believe. One, in fact, has gone back and taken the very course she tested out of with her AP exam score. The subjects they've talked about the most were literature and science, but I don't recall the exact courses within the subjects. My sample size is, of course, very small. 

 

As far as labels go, it's entirely possible for someone to test both academically gifted and learning disabled, but students are so much more than their labels that having one is a double-edged sword (my son has both of these labels, FWIW). They can be both freeing and restrictive at the same time. 

Considering that MIT permits students with 4's or 5's on the AP Calc BC exam to go directly into vector and multivariable calculus seems to indicate that MIT feels that the AP Calculus BC is a college level course.  Kids with 4's and 5's on the BC exam must have had success going directly into the vector and multivariable class because MIT would not have this policy otherwise.

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm getting confused  :tongue_smilie: but UR has a different page describing AP credit, if that is what you were looking for.

 

My fault.  I should have quoted Creekland's post I was referring to about UR not allowing any credit for DE courses.   Either this is old info, or new info, or I've got the wrong end of the stick.  lol

[Teachin'Mine]

Considering that MIT permits students with 4's or 5's on the AP Calc BC exam to go directly into vector and multivariable calculus seems to indicate that MIT feels that the AP Calculus BC is a college level course.  Kids with 4's and 5's on the BC exam must have had success going directly into the vector and multivariable class because MIT would not have this policy otherwise.

 

They also allow students who took DE at CCs to place out of those courses as well.

[TechWife]

Actually, that is how they set up the scoring for the AP exams. Students who have just completed the college course take the exam. The scoring is set so a C=3, B=4, A=5. Now, of course, it isn't MIT students who are doing the exams, so...

 

Has this been done independent of The College Board after the fact though? I'm thinking about a study with control groups, etc., perhaps I didn't make that clear. 

[TechWife]

Considering that MIT permits students with 4's or 5's on the AP Calc BC exam to go directly into vector and multivariable calculus seems to indicate that MIT feels that the AP Calculus BC is a college level course.  Kids with 4's and 5's on the BC exam must have had success going directly into the vector and multivariable class because MIT would not have this policy otherwise.

 

I was actually asking about 8's personal experience. It is one thing to get credit from an exam for a pre-requisite course and another thing to succeed at the upper level courses once you get to college. 8 related her personal experience with her children and their subsequent college success, I'm curious if she knows how well their peers have fared. 

 

MIT may allow the students to go directly into the upper level classes, what I'm curious about is how successful the students are in those upper level classes. Do they pass them and by what margin? How do students who receive credit from their AP exams perform in upper level classes when compared to students who completed the pre-requisites for the upper level courses?

 

There's a big difference between a student who makes an A in a course and a student who makes a C. What percentage of students who receive credit from their AP exam for the pre-requisite go on to earn an A, B or C in an upper level course? What is the grade distribution? What percentage of student who receive credit for DE courses go on to earn an A, B, or C and what is the grade distribution? What about the students who complete the pre-requisite courses at the university at which they are taking the upper level course? What does their grade distribution in the upper level courses look like when compared to those who testing into the upper level course through AP or another test or DE? 

 

The more I hear of different people's experiences, the more questions I have. 

[creekland]

I do not believe my kids are outliers. What I believe the difference is is that my kids are solidly prepared. They can't simply do problems and call it done. I expect them to understand what they are doing. I expectmy kids to explain what they do. Schools teach to the test. I teach my kids. I didn't teach ds chem or cal, but his performance in those classes was built on his background.

 

I really couldn't like this enough... it needed to be quoted IMO.  MANY kids could do so much more if they truly learned what they were doing rather than memorizing it.

 

Creekland is this old info?  http://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/AdviserHandbook/TransferCrdt.html

 

Courses taken while a student was in high school which were sponsored by a college but were taught in the high school are not approved for transfer credit. However, students enrolled in college coursework on a college campus are eligible to receive transfer credit assuming the courses are completed with a grade of C or better and are approved. Students who believe their situations warrant an exception should always speak with a CCAS adviser. A special petition form is available for coursework taught in the high school. It requires a comprehensive letter of support from the appropriate faculty member. The final decision then is made by the Dean of the College.

 

It may be that this is a new policy and wasn't in effect when your son entered.  There's more info in the link about needing departmental approval and all of that.

 

It's not old because I remember seeing it and suggesting middle son check with his adviser about it.  He did.  His courses were not accepted and he told me it's common that they aren't accepted.  Knowing the level of his English class, I didn't press any further.  I had no idea how to compare his Microbio class and didn't really care at all about his Public Speaking class credit.  Some of his peers have been knocking out some credits at cc over the summer (not major courses, but others) and those credits are accepted, but they get approval first.  They also talk about how much easier those courses are...  :glare:

 

I suspect if one wanted approval for known "good" courses (like in Calc or similar) they could probably get it by doing well on UR's placement test.  We didn't want credit for Calc or any of the pre-med courses due to wanting the grades for those from UR.  As mentioned in other threads, in hindsight, I'd have had my guy take the AP Bio test - not to get out of Bio 101, but to get into the Honors class of it.  A pre-req of an AP score of 5 was required with no other way to go around it (placement test or otherwise).  I was not expecting that, but it's also the only school I've heard of with that narrow of a pre-req.  They didn't need to make the pre-req broader as they already had more students wanting to take the course than they had slots.  Such is life sometimes.

 

My guy had no problem getting credit for AP Stats and AP Psych.  

[creekland]

MIT may allow the students to go directly into the upper level classes, what I'm curious about is how successful the students are in those upper level classes. Do they pass them and by what margin? How do students who receive credit from their AP exams perform in upper level classes when compared to students who completed the pre-requisites for the upper level courses?

 

There's a big difference between a student who makes an A in a course and a student who makes a C. What percentage of students who receive credit from their AP exam for the pre-requisite go on to earn an A, B or C in an upper level course? What is the grade distribution? What percentage of student who receive credit for DE courses go on to earn an A, B, or C and what is the grade distribution? What about the students who complete the pre-requisite courses at the university at which they are taking the upper level course? What does their grade distribution in the upper level courses look like when compared to those who testing into the upper level course through AP or another test or DE? 

 

The more I hear of different people's experiences, the more questions I have. 

 

And this is exactly why I had middle son not get credit for Calc, Bio, or Chem.  He's planning on pre-med and GPA is a biggie.  I wasn't really certain how our classes would compare to an upper level school and preferred to play it safe than sorry.

 

Of his peers at college, those who used AP to get out of Calc 101 were sorry they did so (and told him his strategy was better).  UR's classes are tougher.  They did not feel prepared for Calc 102 (different numbers, but the same basic idea).  In reality they got Bs, so it wasn't too bad, but pre-meds tend to want/need As...

 

Our ps now routinely tells kids to retake Calc 101 in college rather than skipping it IF they need more math classes.  Kids from our DE have NOT done well.  Some did not even place into Calc on their placement test... and that's sad considering they'd passed the course handily.

[wapiti]

My two cents on AP is that the content is, or really is supposed to be, college-level.  I don't think pace necessarily reflects a level of content (or skill, for that matter).  Just as we wouldn't say that a certain algebra 1 course wasn't high-school-level content just because it took a younger student more than a year to complete, I don't think it matters whether it takes some AP courses longer to cover the same material than a college might.

 

One possible difference between an AP course and a particular, real college version is depth, as the AP version is presumably some generic level of depth whereas certain colleges, especially the more selective ones, may present more depth and challenge for the same basic topics.

 

I placed out of one semester of a two-semester core math requirement thanks to the AB exam and the single course I took in college was designed for such students.  It was a slight increase in difficulty from my high school AB course but not a huge leap - just right, actually.  What I can't quite figure out is how I passed the AB exam at all, because I thought I knew no calc (is it remotely possible that my high school calc teacher wasn't as bad as we all thought she was?  I have distinct memories of drawing a cartoon picture on the blank test page for problems I had no idea how to do, on more than one occasion).  All I can guess is that perhaps AP calc exams are as shallow as Rusczyk describes.

[Teachin'Mine]

Wapiti I agree that pace does not reflect the level of content.  IMO it does reflect the level of rigor.

[wapiti]

Wapiti I agree that pace does not reflect the level of content.  IMO it does reflect the level of rigor.

 

See I'd say the opposite, that depth may reflect a level of rigor, but not pace.

 

I'll use the obvious example of AoPS - there are students of some posters (not me) on these boards who completed the Intro to Algebra text over multiple years... in elementary school.  There is no doubt that the text is rigorous and high-school-level.  What difference does it make, ultimately, that the course occurred over a longer period.

 

Maybe I'm getting mixed up between placement and credit.  My college offers advanced placement based on AP courses but does not award any college credit for APs in most cases.  I wouldn't plan to offer high school credit for algebra 1 to the student who completed it in elementary school, just advanced placement :tongue_smilie: but I really don't know the ins and outs of high school credits.

[Caroline]

Wapiti I agree that pace does not reflect the level of content. IMO it does reflect the level of rigor.

Not having to take the class in college is about content knowledge, not how fast it was learned. If you have the physics knowledge, even if it took you longer, why should you have to take the class again? You get credit for knowing the information, not how fast it was thrown at you.

[Bootsie]

Students who take an AP course may have content knowledge of an introductory college level course, but they may not have developed the skills necessary to perform well in a course that is beyond introductory level.