Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

MarkT

article: College Board

Recommended Posts

I do not believe my kids are outliers. What I believe the difference is is that my kids are solidly prepared. They can't simply do problems and call it done. I expect them to understand what they are doing. I expectmy kids to explain what they do. Schools teach to the test. I teach my kids. I didn't teach ds chem or cal, but his performance in those classes was built on his background.

 

I really couldn't like this enough... it needed to be quoted IMO.  MANY kids could do so much more if they truly learned what they were doing rather than memorizing it.

 

Creekland is this old info?  http://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/AdviserHandbook/TransferCrdt.html

 

Courses taken while a student was in high school which were sponsored by a college but were taught in the high school are not approved for transfer credit. However, students enrolled in college coursework on a college campus are eligible to receive transfer credit assuming the courses are completed with a grade of C or better and are approved. Students who believe their situations warrant an exception should always speak with a CCAS adviser. A special petition form is available for coursework taught in the high school. It requires a comprehensive letter of support from the appropriate faculty member. The final decision then is made by the Dean of the College.

 

It may be that this is a new policy and wasn't in effect when your son entered.  There's more info in the link about needing departmental approval and all of that.

 

It's not old because I remember seeing it and suggesting middle son check with his adviser about it.  He did.  His courses were not accepted and he told me it's common that they aren't accepted.  Knowing the level of his English class, I didn't press any further.  I had no idea how to compare his Microbio class and didn't really care at all about his Public Speaking class credit.  Some of his peers have been knocking out some credits at cc over the summer (not major courses, but others) and those credits are accepted, but they get approval first.  They also talk about how much easier those courses are...  :glare:

 

I suspect if one wanted approval for known "good" courses (like in Calc or similar) they could probably get it by doing well on UR's placement test.  We didn't want credit for Calc or any of the pre-med courses due to wanting the grades for those from UR.  As mentioned in other threads, in hindsight, I'd have had my guy take the AP Bio test - not to get out of Bio 101, but to get into the Honors class of it.  A pre-req of an AP score of 5 was required with no other way to go around it (placement test or otherwise).  I was not expecting that, but it's also the only school I've heard of with that narrow of a pre-req.  They didn't need to make the pre-req broader as they already had more students wanting to take the course than they had slots.  Such is life sometimes.

 

My guy had no problem getting credit for AP Stats and AP Psych.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MIT may allow the students to go directly into the upper level classes, what I'm curious about is how successful the students are in those upper level classes. Do they pass them and by what margin? How do students who receive credit from their AP exams perform in upper level classes when compared to students who completed the pre-requisites for the upper level courses?

 

There's a big difference between a student who makes an A in a course and a student who makes a C. What percentage of students who receive credit from their AP exam for the pre-requisite go on to earn an A, B or C in an upper level course? What is the grade distribution? What percentage of student who receive credit for DE courses go on to earn an A, B, or C and what is the grade distribution? What about the students who complete the pre-requisite courses at the university at which they are taking the upper level course? What does their grade distribution in the upper level courses look like when compared to those who testing into the upper level course through AP or another test or DE? 

 

The more I hear of different people's experiences, the more questions I have. 

 

And this is exactly why I had middle son not get credit for Calc, Bio, or Chem.  He's planning on pre-med and GPA is a biggie.  I wasn't really certain how our classes would compare to an upper level school and preferred to play it safe than sorry.

 

Of his peers at college, those who used AP to get out of Calc 101 were sorry they did so (and told him his strategy was better).  UR's classes are tougher.  They did not feel prepared for Calc 102 (different numbers, but the same basic idea).  In reality they got Bs, so it wasn't too bad, but pre-meds tend to want/need As...

 

Our ps now routinely tells kids to retake Calc 101 in college rather than skipping it IF they need more math classes.  Kids from our DE have NOT done well.  Some did not even place into Calc on their placement test... and that's sad considering they'd passed the course handily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My two cents on AP is that the content is, or really is supposed to be, college-level.  I don't think pace necessarily reflects a level of content (or skill, for that matter).  Just as we wouldn't say that a certain algebra 1 course wasn't high-school-level content just because it took a younger student more than a year to complete, I don't think it matters whether it takes some AP courses longer to cover the same material than a college might.

 

One possible difference between an AP course and a particular, real college version is depth, as the AP version is presumably some generic level of depth whereas certain colleges, especially the more selective ones, may present more depth and challenge for the same basic topics.

 

I placed out of one semester of a two-semester core math requirement thanks to the AB exam and the single course I took in college was designed for such students.  It was a slight increase in difficulty from my high school AB course but not a huge leap - just right, actually.  What I can't quite figure out is how I passed the AB exam at all, because I thought I knew no calc (is it remotely possible that my high school calc teacher wasn't as bad as we all thought she was?  I have distinct memories of drawing a cartoon picture on the blank test page for problems I had no idea how to do, on more than one occasion).  All I can guess is that perhaps AP calc exams are as shallow as Rusczyk describes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wapiti I agree that pace does not reflect the level of content.  IMO it does reflect the level of rigor.

 

See I'd say the opposite, that depth may reflect a level of rigor, but not pace.

 

I'll use the obvious example of AoPS - there are students of some posters (not me) on these boards who completed the Intro to Algebra text over multiple years... in elementary school.  There is no doubt that the text is rigorous and high-school-level.  What difference does it make, ultimately, that the course occurred over a longer period.

 

Maybe I'm getting mixed up between placement and credit.  My college offers advanced placement based on AP courses but does not award any college credit for APs in most cases.  I wouldn't plan to offer high school credit for algebra 1 to the student who completed it in elementary school, just advanced placement :tongue_smilie: but I really don't know the ins and outs of high school credits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wapiti I agree that pace does not reflect the level of content. IMO it does reflect the level of rigor.

Not having to take the class in college is about content knowledge, not how fast it was learned. If you have the physics knowledge, even if it took you longer, why should you have to take the class again? You get credit for knowing the information, not how fast it was thrown at you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Students who take an AP course may have content knowledge of an introductory college level course, but they may not have developed the skills necessary to perform well in a course that is beyond introductory level. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as the pace of the course, in some it may not matter, but in my opinion it does matter in regards to math.  If a student is placing out of Calc I, for example, then they would go directly into Calc II.  If it took them a year or longer to learn Calc I, it's possible that when they enter Calc II that they will find the pace too fast to keep up.   Obviously that's not the case for the majority of students but I am using it as an example.  If a student took 8 AP courses, they will likely handle the content of the college courses just fine, but they might be thrown by the volume of work (not busy work) and the pace of the learning and testing.  This is just my opinion.  : )  

 

I understand what you are saying about how some rigorous courses necessarily might take longer to complete due to the depth of learning, but this is AP that we're talking about which I doubt anyone would claim is taught at greater depth that the comparable college course.  As has been said, the students are taught to the test and I think it would be the rare class in which the teacher goes into great depth on anything which isn't covered on that exam.  College professors can be notorious for this.  : )  Students are expected to learn the material by reading the texts.  IMO one is high school level teaching/learning and the other is more independent college level learning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the beginning of this thread, a few pages back, it was about college readiness.  IMO DE classes on college campuses better prepare students for college level work because that is what they do in DE.  The content, the pacing, the independent learning, the time management, etc. is very different from a high school AP class.  This is just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not having to take the class in college is about content knowledge, not how fast it was learned. If you have the physics knowledge, even if it took you longer, why should you have to take the class again? You get credit for knowing the information, not how fast it was thrown at you.

 

I am not saying that they should have to take the class again, but they may not be well enough prepared for the next course in sequence.  It might be easier for them to take on learning time management, getting help from the professor and tutors, learning to keep up with the class readings and getting used to the pacing with material they already know than taking the next level and having to learn the course content as well.  Isn't it for the easy A that some students choose to repeat a course?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just done a bit of research on the high school we are zoned for as well as the county as a whole. I live in an educational bubble. I've known that we're in an economic bubble, that we have a huge % of households with PhD's and that the region is home to several universities, three of them highly competitive, but I hadn't thought to apply that concept to K-12 education. This is why I have been silently scratching my head when I've read here how few students actually get to take advanced courses and exams. Things are more clear now. It also explains why I've thought there's an abnormally large number of students taking AP courses and exams - because around here, there are! No wonder my perception of AP exams is a bit different than others here. 

 

 

For the county: 

21,887 AP seats total (all courses combined)

43,343 total high school student population

23% of all students enroll in at least one AP course

 

but

 

6,163 students took a total of 12,646 AP exams (out of 21,887 AP seats)

76.6% scored 3 or higher with an average exam score of 3.4

20% of AP exam scores are 5's

30% of AP exam scores are 4's

27% of AP exam scores are 3's

 

Edited to remove identifying info about our local high school - TMI for a public forum. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See I'd say the opposite, that depth may reflect a level of rigor, but not pace.

 

 

 

I'd say that pace is part of determining rigor, along with content and methods of output. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I understand what you are saying about how some rigorous courses necessarily might take longer to complete due to the depth of learning, but this is AP that we're talking about which I doubt anyone would claim is taught at greater depth that the comparable college course.  As has been said, the students are taught to the test and I think it would be the rare class in which the teacher goes into great depth on anything which isn't covered on that exam.  College professors can be notorious for this.  : )  Students are expected to learn the material by reading the texts.  IMO one is high school level teaching/learning and the other is more independent college level learning

 

AP classes where the kids end up with a 4/5 on the test ARE more in depth and tougher than a similar class at our local CC.  I've yet to see it work the other way.  I trust that some of you out there have more rigorous CCs around.  College profs going off on tangents is one reason more can't be covered, but in general, CCs around here get the non 4 year college bound students - those who weren't in our top level classes in high school.  Those students can't (or won't) suddenly pick up their game.  There are many who rarely crack their texts - yet they still easily pass (or so they tell me).

 

Some do well and transfer for their last two years, but it's not often that they transfer to top level schools.

 

It is VERY important for those of us who are guiding our offspring to know which kind of area we are in.

 

At the beginning of this thread, a few pages back, it was about college readiness.  IMO DE classes on college campuses better prepare students for college level work because that is what they do in DE.  The content, the pacing, the independent learning, the time management, etc. is very different from a high school AP class.  This is just my opinion.

 

Around here the pacing is really not very different (our high school is on block scheduling) and I've already discussed the level of content.  The rest is a good experience.  My guys took DE classes and got good reference letters as well as a decent idea of what college classes would be like, but their AP type classes (not technically AP classes as we didn't do approved syllabi) definitely covered more and deeper content.  Middle son got 5s on the tests he took.  Oldest did not do tests as we saw no need with his plan (plus I wasn't as knowledgeable about scheduling these things back then).  Youngest didn't do any AP type - just DE - since he was in ps.

 

Areas differ - as do colleges.  One really can't make a general "this is better than that" statement IMO.  We can all offer experiences from our local areas, but the reader needs to determine what is best for their student/location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AP classes where the kids end up with a 4/5 on the test ARE more in depth and tougher than a similar class at our local CC.  I've yet to see it work the other way.  I trust that some of you out there have more rigorous CCs around.  College profs going off on tangents is one reason more can't be covered, but in general, CCs around here get the non 4 year college bound students - those who weren't in our top level classes in high school.  Those students can't (or won't) suddenly pick up their game.  There are many who rarely crack their texts - yet they still easily pass (or so they tell me).

 

Some do well and transfer for their last two years, but it's not often that they transfer to top level schools.

 

It is VERY important for those of us who are guiding our offspring to know which kind of area we are in.

 

 

Around here the pacing is really not very different (our high school is on block scheduling) and I've already discussed the level of content.  The rest is a good experience.  My guys took DE classes and got good reference letters as well as a decent idea of what college classes would be like, but their AP type classes (not technically AP classes as we didn't do approved syllabi) definitely covered more and deeper content.  Middle son got 5s on the tests he took.  Oldest did not do tests as we saw no need with his plan (plus I wasn't as knowledgeable about scheduling these things back then).  Youngest didn't do any AP type - just DE - since he was in ps.

 

Areas differ - as do colleges.  One really can't make a general "this is better than that" statement IMO.  We can all offer experiences from our local areas, but the reader needs to determine what is best for their student/location.

 

Yes as I had mentioned, block scheduling is one way in which an AP class can have the same pacing as a college class.  CC classes and AP classes vary tremendously and you're absolutely right that each family has to decide what is best for their particular student based on their own options.  However, I still maintain that with a few exceptions, most AP classes taught in high schools are much more similar to a high school class than a college class. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I still maintain that with a few exceptions, most AP classes taught in high schools are much more similar to a high school class than a college class. 

 

 

I would say it would depend upon the scores students receive for AP.  With quite a few 4s & 5s, I'll place my bets on the AP courses.  With 1s and the occasional 2, I'd go with the cc course.  In between and they are probably equal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. However, I still maintain that with a few exceptions, most AP classes taught in high schools are much more similar to a high school class than a college class.

 

I don't know. I have seen some horrid CC classes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've heard your hubby's complaints multiple times from those in our IRL circle.  This is the first I've seen it connected to rubrics... I bet you're on to something.  Kids ALWAYS look at the rubrics, then decide if they care about whether they get 4 points or 3 or 2... is it worth the effort on their part?   :glare:

 

I had never heard the word "rubric" before my I saw it from my son's teachers.  There are so many check-lists these days for school and now at work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But should they be? Maybe we all just need a reality check. 

 

Not 25% but probably 10% are capable of doing the work at a selective college. It's obviously going to vary by school. In some areas, it would be 25+%. The (public) high school I graduated from has an average SAT score of 1220 M+V. Obviously that school is going to have more students aiming for Ivies than the one my kids are zoned for, which has an average SAT score of 1090 M+V.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes as I had mentioned, block scheduling is one way in which an AP class can have the same pacing as a college class. CC classes and AP classes vary tremendously and you're absolutely right that each family has to decide what is best for their particular student based on their own options. However, I still maintain that with a few exceptions, most AP classes taught in high schools are much more similar to a high school class than a college class.

 

This, to me, was a truly great feature of ds's charter school. They are on true block scheduling. Because AP exams are given in the spring, most AP classes are taught in the spring semester (though some are done in the fall as well as the school continues to increase its AP offerings). Ds did a couple of the fall APs, (including the AB part of Calculus - took BC the same year in the spring) but they purposely do the "easier" ones in that fall semester. At any rate, that means the pacing is most definitely there. They take both English APs in the senior year. In terms of teaching ability, *most* of his teachers had Masters in their subject areas. HIs Calc/Chem teacher did not, but he does have an engineering degree from Ga Tech. As far as rigor goes, I really don't know. He had a total of ten exams and made 5 5's, 4 4's, and one 3. His university has placement exams for Chemistry, Phyics, and Foreign Language, but not for math. I believe placement for math is based on one's AP score. I suppose as his freshman year progresses, we will learn how well-prepared he is for college level work. Students at his high school are fortunate as we live in a University town. Any DE is done through the University rather than through a CC. Not saying that is necessarily "better," but I think it is probably perceived to be.

 

Ds also took two summer school courses at WashU between his junior and senior year of high school. Although the courses were taken through a residential high school program, in his classes he was mixed in with many college students - perhaps only two or three of the high school kids in each of his classes. I am thankful for that experience as well as I think it was probably a very good introduction to college level work, AND the self-discipline, study habits, etc. I am thankful he had BOTH AP and some college courses. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. I will say that probably the only reason he did not do DE at our local university was to stay on track to be valedictorian. The high school gives credit for college courses taken, but the grade is not factored into the student's GPA. I think at many B&M high schools, whoever has the most AP courses with the most A's is the student who winds up being valedictorian, and the hunt for this title may strongly influence which way students go in their AP v. DE decision. Something homeschoolers don't have to consider.

 

As far as age goes with regard to APs, I think this, too, depends on the individual student. This was another huge advantage to his small charter school - they were very much used to homeschoolers (the GC homeschooled her kids until they entered the charter school in the 8th grade), so placing students by ability (other than by a certain age) was embraced. He took AB/BC calculus and scored a 5 on the exam when he was 14. He scored a 5 on the Chemistry exam at 15. According to the link to the chart, these are "harder" exams.

 

Being able to individualize course sequencing to a student is one of the best aspects of homeschooling. I am thankful that when ds "fired" me from homeschooling his charter school had that same philosophy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the local high schools in my area, students in many of the AP classes are not even reading a book.  While the "book" for the course is a college-level text, only the teacher has a copy.  Students are provided with PowerPoints with bullet points about the topics that they "read," practice exams, etc.  But, they are not reading a college textbook. In my opinion, they would be more prepared for college reading a high school level textbook in high school than being prepped for a specific test. 

 

These classes are then taught by individuals who the accrediting agencies would say are not qualified to teach a course at the college level. Last year, a local school had a big article in the paper about their top rankings because of how many students were taking AP classes. It showed a picture of a teacher in front of a white board with material from his class on it.  There was a glaring error about a fundamental concept in the discipline (economics).  When the professors at the local university talked to this teacher, they came away with the impression that he did not really know the basic information in the textbook himself.  

 

I think there is a wide range of experiences in AP classes.  DD who is now at college says that her AP US History course was the high school course that best prepared her for college.  It was taught by a women with a PhD in history who had years of experience teaching at the collegiate level.  In addition to the textbook, they were required to read many source documents and journal articles.  The writing load for the class was heavy.  In addition to essays the students wrote a term paper.  This teacher was adamantly opposed to students taking AP courses before their junior year in high school.  She felt that while students might be able to spit back material they learned for a test before their junior year, they really didn't have the skills in place or brain development to wrestle with the material as she required for this to be a college level class.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the local high schools in my area, students in many of the AP classes are not even reading a book.  While the "book" for the course is a college-level text, only the teacher has a copy.  Students are provided with PowerPoints with bullet points about the topics that they "read," practice exams, etc.  But, they are not reading a college textbook. In my opinion, they would be more prepared for college reading a high school level textbook in high school than being prepped for a specific test.

In this situation, I would not consider these classes true AP classes.  How do the kids score on the AP exam?  My guess would be that none receive a 4 or 5 on the exam, which to me is the true indicator of whether or not a class is a legitimate college-level course.  The AP label, in and of itself, is meaningless as far as I am concerned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this situation, I would not consider these classes true AP classes.  How do the kids score on the AP exam?  My guess would be that none receive a 4 or 5 on the exam, which to me is the true indicator of whether or not a class is a legitimate college-level course.  The AP label, in and of itself, is meaningless as far as I am concerned. 

Many students are scoring 3, 4, or 5s on the exam.  The schools appear in national rankings for their success on AP exams.  The students are being taught how to pass a PARTICULAR exam.  I agree these are not college level courses, but many students and parents think they are.  Students will talk about the heavy load because they have "200" pages to read; these are PowerPoint slides with bullet points--not even complete sentences.  Add in a lot of review sheets and other busy work, and it looks like a class with a heavy work load.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our public high school used to be ranked very highly but because they chose not to allow students to take APs until junior year, their rankings fell. The school has a very good reputation anyway. I think the average ACT score of 1100 or so students per class (all kids take it) is around 28.

 

In the pursuit of academics, what is undervalued is the messy but important process of being in a creative mode of thinking, which can have an impact on almost everything that is studied and experienced.

 

When people learn a subject, they focus and their mind is concentrating on what they're learning. When they're in a creative mode, their mind is wandering and many unrelated thoughts appear. This is an ideal time to integrate and put seemingly disparate thoughts together to create something new, but it means stepping away from focusing. The teenage years are an especially ideal time to do this while their brains remodel themselves. It's an ideal time to take advantage of creativity. Having to focus most of the time means they don't have the luxury of letting themselves go into creative mode, so to speak.

 

Not surprisingly, ADHD people tend to be more creative thinkers but they have a problem with harnessing their ability to focus which is not all that difficult to improve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I pal around with a number of biologists who are university professors and high school teachers.  The AP Bio exam is the one that I have probably dissected (ha!) the most--this is before the changes implemented a couple of years ago.

 

There are several issues that the biologists have mentioned to me, the first concerning labs.  Back then, students taking AP Bio were expected to do twelve labs.  High schools did not necessarily have the equipment for these labs. So many of these labs were done virtually despite the fact that the high school teachers could have used the time doing more worthwhile hands on labs. Further, the time required to complete the AP syllabus, the AP labs, etc. did not allow these classes to explore their own biological worlds around the school which teachers thought was a disservice.

 

My college prof friends are not impressed with AP Bio.  Granted, not every college student has the same experience in Bio 101/102, but a professor will often bring his or her expertise into some aspect of the subject.  They feel that AP reduces Biology to a check list of topics as opposed to an in-depth study of process.  I believe that this was one of the complaints that led to changes in the AP Bio exam so perhaps this comment is moot.

 

A couple of years ago I tutored a young woman who was enrolled in AP Calc AB at the local high school.  While I never sat in the classroom, I did read the girl's notes and handouts, coming to the conclusion that the woman teaching the course had no business doing so.  Of course, someone else might say that the instructor they had at CC or uni had no business teaching the course either but at least the CC or uni instructor is required to have at least a number of graduate level courses in the subject. 

 

I know that there are some wonderful high school teachers who make their AP classes meaningful. Similarly there are homeschoolers who do AP as more than a check off list.  But I am not convinced that the majority of AP classes are equivalent to college courses based on my narrow observations.

 

Interestingly in my rural corner of NC the high school winning the stats game is the early college high school at the local CC.  Students there are transferring courses into the UNC system with the articulation agreement that the CCs have with UNC schools.  Students at the "normal" public high school have had AP options and have not fared well score-wise.  Now the normal high schools are offering dual enrollment on their campuses.  CC instructors are going to them with basic courses like Psych 101, i.e. courses that are not the usual high school offerings.

 

I want to see students have options, but I'd rather see them have a meaningful education from day one.  This is where the quantitative measures seem to get in the way.  How much of a student's life is spent now on "benchmarks" before the real test is given?  I don't even want to think about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many students are scoring 3, 4, or 5s on the exam.  The schools appear in national rankings for their success on AP exams.  The students are being taught how to pass a PARTICULAR exam.  I agree these are not college level courses, but many students and parents think they are.  Students will talk about the heavy load because they have "200" pages to read; these are PowerPoint slides with bullet points--not even complete sentences.  Add in a lot of review sheets and other busy work, and it looks like a class with a heavy work load.

 

Just curious what AP class this is?  Is there a national list that ranks schools based on how well students perform on the AP exams?  I know that there is a national ranking list that is published based on how many students in the school take an AP exam, but the actual scores are not factored into this ranking.  I would like to see the list based on AP success as that is a much more meaningful list.

 

My public school ranks very high on the national list based solely on number of AP exams taken.  My school does not publish its actual AP results.  In order to receive a score breakdown, one needs to request a copy of the College Board Summary Report.  Based on the reaction I received, my guess is that I am the only parent in the history of the school to ever request that report.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. It was taught by a women with a PhD in history who had years of experience teaching at the collegiate level. In addition to the textbook, they were required to read many source documents and journal articles. The writing load for the class was heavy. In addition to essays the students wrote a term paper. This teacher was adamantly opposed to students taking AP courses before their junior year in high school. She felt that while students might be able to spit back material they learned for a test before their junior year, they really didn't have the skills in place or brain development to wrestle with the material as she required for this to be a college level class.

Comments like this personally make me crazy. It is comparable to saying no one should study algebra before they have hair under their armpits. It might be a generalization for a large portion of the population, but that does not make it a universal truth. It is simply a generalization. There will be students who are ready earlier and there will be students who won't be ready even in 11th or 12th grades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just curious what AP class this is?  Is there a national list that ranks schools based on how well students perform on the AP exams?  I know that there is a national ranking list that is published based on how many students in the school take an AP exam, but the actual scores are not factored into this ranking.  I would like to see the list based on AP success as that is a much more meaningful list.

 

My public school ranks very high on the national list based solely on number of AP exams taken.  My school does not publish its actual AP results.  In order to receive a score breakdown, one needs to request a copy of the College Board Summary Report.  Based on the reaction I received, my guess is that I am the only parent in the history of the school to ever request that report.

 

My local school district does publish AP score statistics.  I do not remember if they are broken down by particular exam.  Newsweek has a ranking list that is based in part on AP scores.  

 

To give an example of what is happening in the AP government class.  The students are assigned YouTube videos to watch (not textbook readings) and then are to write about it.  This is an example the teacher gives of what a critical reading (or viewing) response will look like:

 

 

Leo Strauss thesis consist in questions such as “Are Political things

 

natural, and if they are to what extent?â€. Question as said in the passage implies

 

that laws are not natural what’s so ever. Making laws by definition “man madeâ€.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Not surprisingly, ADHD people tend to be more creative thinkers but they have a problem with harnessing their ability to focus which is not all that difficult to improve.

Many, many, many people with ADHD have a very difficult time "harnessing their ability to focus." Some are not ever able to do it in a manner that allows them to perform at their full potential. It is a significant, lifelong issue that impacts every area of life, not just academics. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My local school district does publish AP score statistics. I do not remember if they are broken down by particular exam. Newsweek has a ranking list that is based in part on AP scores.

 

To give an example of what is happening in the AP government class. The students are assigned YouTube videos to watch (not textbook readings) and then are to write about it. This is an example the teacher gives of what a critical reading (or viewing) response will look like:

 

 

Leo Strauss thesis consist in questions such as “Are Political things

 

natural, and if they are to what extent?â€. Question as said in the passage implies

 

that laws are not natural what’s so ever. Making laws by definition “man madeâ€.

My first thought was at least that garbage wasn't written by an English teacher. But, jeepers, what a validation for homeschooling!

 

But, seriously, I do not believe that all teachers are that pathetic. (Or at least I hope not.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/texas/districts/dallas-independent-school-district/school-for-the-talented-and-gifted-18937

 

This site provides some information regarding AP participation and percentage of students passing AP exams.

 

Interestingly, my local district reports 62% of the students are "satisfactory" and 6% are "advanced" in reading proficiency.  61% of students are taking AP classes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many, many, many people with ADHD have a very difficult time "harnessing their ability to focus." Some are not ever able to do it in a manner that allows them to perform at their full potential. It is a significant, lifelong issue that impacts every area of life, not just academics. 

 

Yes, sometimes because they don't know what could help. Dan Goleman is just one person who talks about ways to work on improving the ability to focus in his book Focus but there are other experts out there, too. John Ratey is another. Sometimes for an individual to find what works, they have to try different things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, sometimes because they don't know what could help. Dan Goleman is just one person who talks about ways to work on improving the ability to focus in his book Focus but there are other experts out there, too. John Ratey is another. Sometimes for an individual to find what works, they have to try different things.

 

I'm sorry, but we have been dealing with a very severe case of ADHD in this household. ALL of my son's physicians say that they've never seen anything like it. We have been to expert after expert and tried countless interventions. It isn't a matter of "trying different ways" it's a matter of trying to cope with daily life. It's a disability. 

 

Unless you've walked a mile in my son's shoes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not suggesting what your son needs to do. My post was written for a general audience and for those who might not have heard of Goleman or Ratey. People have been helped by their methods and my intention of posting that information was to try to help those who had never heard of them. Although their methods didn't help your son, they could help others. That is why I posted it. I am sorry you haven't found anything to help your son, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My local school district does publish AP score statistics.  I do not remember if they are broken down by particular exam.  Newsweek has a ranking list that is based in part on AP scores.  

 

 

The Newsweek ranking includes stats from AP tests, but that metric is based solely on how many AP tests are taken in each school.  How well the students score on the actual exam is not taken into account at all.  My local school district also publishes overall AP score statistics.  I don't find that information very useful because one class can skew the results. 

 

If you request a copy of the College Board Summary Report, you will be given a score distribution broken down by both AP class and teacher.  This report, imo, is way more meaningful that an overall percentage of passing rates.  Also, a score of 3 is considered passing, but few colleges that accept AP credit will give credit for a score of 3.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Newsweek ranking includes stats from AP tests, but that metric is based solely on how many AP tests are taken in each school.  How well the students score on the actual exam is not taken into account at all.  My local school district also publishes overall AP score statistics.  I don't find that information very useful because one class can skew the results. 

 

If you request a copy of the College Board Summary Report, you will be given a score distribution broken down by both AP class and teacher.  This report, imo, is way more meaningful that an overall percentage of passing rates.  Also, a score of 3 is considered passing, but few colleges that accept AP credit will give credit for a score of 3.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/2013/05/06/america-s-best-high-schools.html

 

 

"The list is based on six components: graduation rate (25 percent), college acceptance rate (25 percent), AP/IB/AICE tests taken per student (25 percent), average SAT/ACT scores (10 percent), average AP/IB/AICE scores (10 percent), and percent of students enrolled in at least one AP/IB/AICE course (5 percent)."

 

In this survey the number of tests taken per student is weighed more heavily, but 10% is based upon AP/IB/AICE scores.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've noticed this too; passive learning is the only method of absorbing information students seem to be able to cope with.  A large number of students I see in my classes don't have a clue how to approach a problem to solve it or how to actually learn anything independently.  I think this is because this is the first wave of college students who have been taught that way for most of their academic careers; everything has been taught and planned out for them, from their course schedules to what notebook type they need for each class and how to organize the notebook (yes, that's what goes on in my district).  But more importantly, colleges are so terribly afraid to let anyone fail these days that students have been conditioned to respond to a difficult learning task with resignation, knowing full well they ultimately will not fail.  But perhaps I am jaded by the environment in which I teach, where administrators are more concerned with graduation rates than students actually learning something.

Not only that, there has to be some willingness on the part of the students.  If there's one thing I've seen over the past 15 years it's that there is a larger population of students who is unwilling to put any effort into learning anything.  In my earlier days watching students get together to struggle over a problem was common.  Now it's far more common to shut the offending book and give up - not caring that they don't get it - not even trying one iota as soon as they are stumped.

 

There have always been pockets of both types of students, but the percentages in those pockets sure has shifted.

 

I find myself wondering if it's due to the internet and how conditioned we all are to having answers at our fingertips rather than having to trudge to libraries or encyclopedias or maps (etc) to look things up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no need for those students to take the quiz on time.  Those students know that if the instructor fails them and they complain to a dean, some administrator will call the instructor on the carpet and prod them to give a make-up quiz.  The unspoken but understood threat of a poor review or outright job loss will be the prod.

My ds is taking pre calc at the cc. Last week there was an online quiz. Worth 5% of the grade. Yesterday the instructor sent out an email noting that he'd calculated interim grades. He pointed out that 16 students in two sections had not done the quiz. At least some have not done either of the two quizzes.

The quizzes are scheduled in the syllabus and are availae for 24 hours.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Comments like this personally make me crazy. It is comparable to saying no one should study algebra before they have hair under their armpits. It might be a generalization for a large portion of the population, but that does not make it a universal truth. It is simply a generalization. There will be students who are ready earlier and there will be students who won't be ready even in 11th or 12th grades.

I could not agree more! My cousin and I spent two years of high school twiddling our thumbs and bored to absolute death.

 

Good thing my piano teacher didn't take this attitude. I would have been stuck playing from method books in 8th grade instead of tackling Beethoven sonatas and Chopin etudes instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've noticed this too; passive learning is the only method of absorbing information students seem to be able to cope with.  A large number of students I see in my classes don't have a clue how to approach a problem to solve it or how to actually learn anything independently.  I think this is because this is the first wave of college students who have been taught that way for most of their academic careers; everything has been taught and planned out for them, from their course schedules to what notebook type they need for each class and how to organize the notebook (yes, that's what goes on in my district).  But more importantly, colleges are so terribly afraid to let anyone fail these days that students have been conditioned to respond to a difficult learning task with resignation, knowing full well they ultimately will not fail.  But perhaps I am jaded by the environment in which I teach, where administrators are more concerned with graduation rates than students actually learning something.

 

It's the same way with our district - even down to some of the teachers having "the" way notebooks have to be organized.

 

I always try to get the kids I'm working with to think - to reason - to truly understand concepts.  Most like it that way - another reason I rarely have discipline issues.

 

I can't begin to count the times when students have asked me why I'm not a regular teacher.  I tell them the truth - I'm way too lazy to work full time!   :lol:   Then I also add that it wouldn't be as fun if I were to go full time because if I did, I would have to actually follow the rules and methods our school insists upon.  As a sub, I get away with "my" ways.  I wouldn't be able to if I went full time.

 

I'll admit to feeling sorry for the students at times.  I just had a discussion on Monday with some students who want to head into engineering and have just discovered that their math skills are likely to be a little low.  These boys DO try to work through problems, so I told them to get an SAT Math 2 review book and work on some afterschooling to build and/or solidify their foundation.  They probably will do it.  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we were still in a society where selection for the Ivies and top LAC's was done by the prep schools (who in turn relied on being from the "right" family rather than academic merit), then K-12 education in this country would look very different. The SAT was instrumental in dismantling the class-based admissions system and transitioning to a more meritocratic one.

As a first generation college student with zero $$ from home, the SAT was absolutely instrumental in garnering me a chance for a college education. That is also exactly the case for my dh, who not only was a first generation college student, he attended an Ivy. Both of us have observed that the SAT alone has more to do with our current socioeconomic and educational situation than any other single factor.

 

So I agree wholeheartedly that even with its many imperfections, and even with my deep ambivalence about the CB, I am deeply indebted to the SAT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Better schools often offer challenging classes other than the APs. It's a mistake to think that just because a student is not taking an official AP class, they are not studying difficult material or that the school is holding them back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no need for those students to take the quiz on time.  Those students know that if the instructor fails them and they complain to a dean, some administrator will call the instructor on the carpet and prod them to give a make-up quiz.  The unspoken but understood threat of a poor review or outright job loss will be the prod.

 

Judging from the comments on Rate My Professor, I'm not sure that this is an instructor who gives such latitude to students who aren't putting in the effort. 

 

It is a hard class, in the sense that there is a lot to master.  But he was also willing to meet my son for an hour after one class to go over the first in class test and work through the problems on it with him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a first generation college student with zero $$ from home, the SAT was absolutely instrumental in garnering me a chance for a college education. That is also exactly the case for my dh, who not only was a first generation college student, he attended an Ivy. Both of us have observed that the SAT alone has more to do with our current socioeconomic and educational situation than any other single factor.

 

So I agree wholeheartedly that even with its many imperfections, and even with my deep ambivalence about the CB, I am deeply indebted to the SAT.

 

I agree with this and had a similar circumstance.  I had $300 saved for college.  But I went to a school that had high standards for its college prep students, that had teachers who really taught and would give bad grades when bad grades were earned.  So I was prepared for college when it was time.  This despite the fact that my first high school offered no AP classes and my second high school only offered AP US History.  I was able to take and pass the APUSH exam based only on what I'd learned in my honors US History class.

 

Having said that, the oppression of the standardized test is now leading schools to be very concerned about rankings, in my mind to the detriment of actually teaching.  The school gets more positive feedback from moving a few kids across an arbitrary testing line (search on "bubble kids" than either moving up really low performing students to a higher-but-still-low level or teaching high performing students on a high level. 

 

I will also say that as a parent on the edge of college applications for our first kid, I'm disappointed in a lot of what I see from colleges.  25-30 years ago, it might have been an era when high performing kids in the sticks mostly went to their regional or state schools.  But I also think that the instruction at these state schools was often more solid than what is being offered (and charged heavily for) now. 

 

I'm in a position where I think that the competition for elite schools has gotten much more select, but that the actual education improvement of many graduates from those schools is lacking (meaning that I'm not sure how much they have learned through their 4 years of school.  I will add the caveat that I'm referring mainly to students outside of STEM degree programs.)  Just my $0.02

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with this and had a similar circumstance.  I had $300 saved for college.  But I went to a school that had high standards for its college prep students, that had teachers who really taught and would give bad grades when bad grades were earned.  So I was prepared for college when it was time.  This despite the fact that my first high school offered no AP classes and my second high school only offered AP US History.  I was able to take and pass the APUSH exam based only on what I'd learned in my honors US History class.

 

Having said that, the oppression of the standardized test is now leading schools to be very concerned about rankings, in my mind to the detriment of actually teaching.  The school gets more positive feedback from moving a few kids across an arbitrary testing line (search on "bubble kids" than either moving up really low performing students to a higher-but-still-low level or teaching high performing students on a high level. 

 

I will also say that as a parent on the edge of college applications for our first kid, I'm disappointed in a lot of what I see from colleges.  25-30 years ago, it might have been an era when high performing kids in the sticks mostly went to their regional or state schools.  But I also think that the instruction at these state schools was often more solid than what is being offered (and charged heavily for) now. 

 

I'm in a position where I think that the competition for elite schools has gotten much more select, but that the actual education improvement of many graduates from those schools is lacking (meaning that I'm not sure how much they have learned through their 4 years of school.  I will add the caveat that I'm referring mainly to students outside of STEM degree programs.)  Just my $0.02

 

 

 

Sebastian why do you think that the education of graduates (especially non-STEM) of the elite schools is lacking?  In what way is it lacking?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the beginning of this thread, a few pages back, it was about college readiness.  IMO DE classes on college campuses better prepare students for college level work because that is what they do in DE.  The content, the pacing, the independent learning, the time management, etc. is very different from a high school AP class.  This is just my opinion.

In my area, at least, this is definitely not true.   My kids have often taken an AP exam after completing a CC course, because they are applying to selective colleges and we want a more objective measure of their preparation.  We've found that the CC courses move far too slowly to cover the material.  My kids have chapters and chapters to cover on their own to prepare for the AP.  Also, depth of the material covered in the CC class is nowhere near that expected on the AP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my area, at least, this is definitely not true.   My kids have often taken an AP exam after completing a CC course, because they are applying to selective colleges and we want a more objective measure of their preparation.  We've found that the CC courses move far too slowly to cover the material.  My kids have chapters and chapters to cover on their own to prepare for the AP.  Also, depth of the material covered in the CC class is nowhere near that expected on the AP.

 

This is definitely what I'm used to.  In my guy's cc English course taken at the college itself, there was only one novel that was read - Things Fall Apart.  It was used (and some shorter readings) for the whole semester.

 

My guys had read it as part of our World Lit course (just one book of it) when I homeschooled them.  Even my DE guy at the high school read more actual books in his semester (6), but that course was from a local 4 year school, not cc.

 

Doing a cc class was a step down... but it provided a good LOR for them and ideas of what a college class could be like - sort of.  Both told me their equivalent 4 year school classes were a bit more rigorous.  

 

Different areas have different experiences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my area, at least, this is definitely not true.   My kids have often taken an AP exam after completing a CC course, because they are applying to selective colleges and we want a more objective measure of their preparation.  We've found that the CC courses move far too slowly to cover the material.  My kids have chapters and chapters to cover on their own to prepare for the AP.  Also, depth of the material covered in the CC class is nowhere near that expected on the AP.

 

 

Obviously all CCs and CC classes are not equal.   I have no idea for which APs this was a problem, but unlike AP classes, college courses are not designed with the AP test in mind and have much more flexibility in content, especially the non-STEM courses.  If the content was included in the syllabus but not covered during the course, then that's a problem.  Dd didn't take any AP exams as college textbooks were our financial priority and not CB testing fees.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously all CCs and CC classes are not equal.   I have no idea for which APs this was a problem, but unlike AP classes, college courses are not designed with the AP test in mind and have much more flexibility in content, especially the non-STEM courses.  If the content was included in the syllabus but not covered during the course, then that's a problem.  Dd didn't take any AP exams as college textbooks were our financial priority and not CB testing fees.

 

For my kids, it was biology, chemistry, and physics.  The teachers didn't come anywhere near covering the material on the syllabus and/or the syllabus skipped over key areas and just didn't go into the depth required.  It wasn't a question of them doing all kinds of other cool things instead of this.  They are slowing down because kids can't handle the material, they are watching "Planet Earth" videos in place of bio labs (repeatedly -- I kid you not), etc.  

 

My dd has a friend who got As in chemistry 101 and 102 who walked into the AP exam without any extra prep and got a 1.  She's a bright kid and usually did fine testing.  She thought she was well prepared and she just wasn't.

 

You might wonder why we did DE at all.  We wanted our kids to have the classroom experience, the labs are (mostly) valuable, and they have been able to get recommendations from their professors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, I think this discussion underscores the differences in topic coverage and depth among the many institutions we refer to as college. It's an interesting question then, and a somewhat odd endeavor, to determine what nationally-standard content ought to be included in an AP course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...