Katy Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 We got a new dog. I had a post about her a few days ago regarding fleas. Was told first people who adopted her's kids were too little for the dog, and were being abusive towards the dog so they needed to find her a new home. I suspect instead that dog was viciously attacking kids, especially around food, and is the worst case of potty training I've ever had (and I've retrained 12 year old dogs who refused to be housebroken). This morning dog comes out of room she slept in (tethered to bed, she could sleep in bed or out of bed). She'd already been up half an hour earlier to go outside. She runs to me, squats, and pees. Goes outside and pees again while I clean up mess. Comes back in and has breakfast, plays for twenty minutes, goes out again and refuses to pee but does move her bowels. Comes back in and we are getting set up for the day, she's tethered to my feet and starts biting me. I thought it started out as play, but when I corrected her she turned vicious. I put her upside down, said "No!, No! No!" sharply, led her to her crate, and shoved her in as I said "Crate" as I always do after she bites viciously. She has a complete conniption fit and pees, I'm not kidding, at least 4 cups pee right in her own crate (she stays in said crate when we leave the house, increasingly overnight, and while people are eating because she gets vicious about food). I see the pee, I suspect she has a bladder infection or something, and she continues to pee and try to bite me as I take her outside. There was another HUGE wet spot right outside the crate and scattered in strange places around the room (I was leading her so I have no idea how she sprayed so wide in an area with carpet). I have never been so tempted to take a dog to a shelter in my life. She's destroying my house. I have gone through a gallon of enzyme cleaner in a few days. She bit me in my hand in such a place that it barely drew blood, but it was deep enough that a little further in either direction I might have needed stitches. To make it worse, my mother is visiting and acting as if my expectations to not pee all over my house while on tethers or in crates and to not be viciously bitten because I happen to be too close to food is out of line. And doing additional things like opening windows for "fresh air" when she knows we need to keep them shut with the air on due to allergies, but that is another annoyance for another day. Starting to think this dog isn't worth rescuing when there are plenty of good dogs that are. I haven't taken her to the vet yet because she's not yet due for her third round of shots but I'm starting to wonder if I want to spend the few hundred dollars in the first place. Have you ever given up on a dog a few days after bringing it home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I don't have any advice but I didn't want to read and run. I would take the dog to the vet to check on possible bladder infection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowing Brook Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 My vet is an exception but when my mom's standard had a bladder infection it cost under 40 dollars to have it treated. When a dog is sick often times they will be very aggressive as a means of protecting themselves. My mom's standard almost died last month. She had a hole in her stomach almost the size of my hand. She turned aggressive and even bit me. She acted like she wanted to rips anyone's head off that she saw. (other than my mom) Now that she is healed she is back to being a sweet non aggressive in the least dog. She is back to her normal self. If it were me I would treat the bladder infection and rule out any other health problems. Ia it possible the dog is used to being starved? That might account for it being so protective over its food. I would give the dog time to adjust to the new surroundings and time to learn he can trust you. I don't blame you for if you decide to take him to a shelter. I definitely would not make you feel guilty over it especially if your kids are young and there is a chance of them getting bit. However my recommendation would be to give it more time. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavandula Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 My vet is an exception but when my mom's standard had a bladder infection it cost under 40 dollars to have it treated. When a dog is sick often times they will be very aggressive as a means of protecting themselves. My mom's standard almost died last month. She had a hole in her stomach almost the size of my hand. She turned aggressive and even bit me. She acted like she wanted to rips anyone's head off that she saw. (other than my mom) Now that she is healed she is back to being a sweet non aggressive in the least dog. She is back to her normal self. If it were me I would treat the bladder infection and rule out any other health problems. Ia it possible the dog is used to being starved? That might account for it being so protective over its food. I would give the dog time to adjust to the new surroundings and time to learn he can trust you. I don't blame you for if you decide to take him to a shelter. I definitely would not make you feel guilty over it especially if your kids are young and there is a chance of them getting bit. However my recommendation would be to give it more time. Good luck! :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Did you get her from a rescue group? They should take her back rather than shelter route. I second or third the recommendation to take her to the vet to rule out UTI or other health issues. Your vet may have some insight on behavior as well. The biting would scare me. Did you get antibiotics for your bite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I have recently dealt with our dog being destructive. I don't know if I'd ever chance anything with aggression issues. That being said, I think it is possible the dog has some type of urinary infection. I think before I would do anything, I'd let a vet check it out. If that wasn't an issue, I'd either return her to the shelter, or take her to the vet for a special shot - too many good dogs that needs homes to pit an aggressive one back in the mix. That's just my opinion of course, and I have a serious problem with any animals that are aggressive. The ONLY reason we still have DESTRUCTO-DOG is because my chickens can literally walk over her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 My decision to return a dog would be affected by its size, age, and breed. What are the particulars of this dog? Also, the safety of my children would be paramount. Shelter dogs can be difficult to socialize and require more time than a puppy. Your dog sounds like it has been starved, left in a crate all day long, and shouted at. He may very well have a UTI and/or wet when he is anxious. I almost wonder if tons of walking and using a dog whistle or clicker training would be so out of his ordinary that it might benefit him? Returning him is up to you. I can't get too excited about a dog that bites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acorn Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I don't know much about what could be re-trained, but I will say that dog would not be a good fit for my family. There are too many other dogs in need of homes without the issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 The vet agreed to see her this morning. If she has a bladder infection she'll get to come back home. If not, I'm not sure. We'll see what the vet recommends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Hope it's a treatable infection. Good luck. I am sorry for the dog, but I absolutely would not judge you if you decide you can't handle her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 The vet couldn't get enough urine to check, but said based on frequency and going in her own crate she'd treat her. She hoped aggression issues would lesson when puppy feels better, and said she'd hold off vaccinating (even though she's due) until we decided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I hope she feels better and stops the biting and aggressive behavior. Sorry, but that would be a dealbreaker for me if it continued after the infection is gone. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Treat the bladder issues and aggression as separate issues. We have two dogs with bladder trouble. One is on a specialized food and cannot even eat dog treats of any kind. We give her freeze dried green beans. Neither dog has even been in the least bit aggressive even when they were in the most pain. I am not discounting the pain as a possible problem, just want to be clear that it may not be the cause of the aggression. Only treating the bladder issue will solve the problem. We did have an aggressive dog. We worked with him. Multiple trainers. One quit, one gave us our money back. We spent thousands to try and train him including special collars, medication, supplements etc. We finally had to put the dog down. We got him as a puppy from someone I know and trust. He was raised around children and the mother was friendly. We opted to put the dog down rather than take him to the pound because we did not want someone else to adopt a beautiful, friendly looking dog and get him home and him injure them or their child. Some dogs just cannot be safe around people. There were signs from a young age and we had talked to our vet about what to do. Our vet was honest and said to go ahead and try the trainer who specialized in aggressive animals, but to keep in mind that coming by the early signs, he probably would probably end up needed to be put down. I have been around dogs my entire life. This was the only dog I was unable to train and work with. Part of the reason so much was spent was because it is hard to work so hard and not succeed and we wanted to ensure that we really had done everything we could. I hope it is just a bladder infection and that she calms down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 Yeah, we had to put an aggressive dog down in the past too, after thousands of dollars in training. I won't have an aggressive dog again. The strange thing is that she seemed to know she'd hit my limit; she was super sweet for all the people fawning over her at the vet and didn't seem the least bit aggressive there, not even when a tech offered her a treat, which she ignored. When the tech handed it to me, though, she ripped the treat out of my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I strongly urge you to forget the alpha rolls. It's a very outdated training method that works anywhere from not at all to very little, and it's based on very flawed and grossly misunderstood wolf studies. And if the dog truly is vicious/aggressive, resorting to an alpha roll is escalating the situation that much more. In your shoes I'd want to have a trainer come in and observe the dog and give an opinion on the aggression issues. In the meantime, I'd institute a very strict Nothing In Life Is Free program. You can Google to get lots of info on that. It is the best method for teaching a dog its place in a non-confrontational way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCMom Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I strongly urge you to forget the alpha rolls. It's a very outdated training method that works anywhere from not at all to very little, and it's based on very flawed and grossly misunderstood wolf studies. And if the dog truly is vicious/aggressive, resorting to an alpha roll is escalating the situation that much more. In your shoes I'd want to have a trainer come in and observe the dog and give an opinion on the aggression issues. In the meantime, I'd institute a very strict Nothing In Life Is Free program. You can Google to get lots of info on that. It is the best method for teaching a dog its place in a non-confrontational way. Yes, please do not do alpha rolls! For aggression I would want a trainer who uses only positive reinforcement. No leash pops, no prong collars, etc. and absolutely no talk of "dominance". If it is really bad I would get a behaviorist, not just a trainer. Georgia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 I'd not heard of nothing in life is free, but I have been giving her an increasing amount of negative attention in the past few days. Since an hour after her vet visit she's been a different dog. I think she was exhausted. I read about NILIF on your recommendation & woke her up & called her to me for praise (the only time today she wasn't doing anything wrong). When I was done I ignored her. I had another adult eat in front of her and ignore her, then command her to sit before giving her a piece. Then I did the same with some turkey, which would normally send her into a frenzy. She sat there politely and didn't bite my hand when I gave her some at the end. I'm not sure I want to try it with kids yet, but I am encouraged. She's seriously like a different dog, the change is so dramatic. Do you think three hours after one dose of antibiotics could make that huge a difference or this was just getting a little positive attention and strategically ignoring her? I still feel like I need to watch her closely b/c she's not house trained, but I guess I pretend not to unless I'm calling her to me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I'd not heard of nothing in life is free, but I have been giving her an increasing amount of negative attention in the past few days. Since an hour after her vet visit she's been a different dog. I think she was exhausted. I read about NILIF on your recommendation & woke her up & called her to me for praise (the only time today she wasn't doing anything wrong). When I was done I ignored her. I had another adult eat in front of her and ignore her, then command her to sit before giving her a piece. Then I did the same with some turkey, which would normally send her into a frenzy. She sat there politely and didn't bite my hand when I gave her some at the end. I'm not sure I want to try it with kids yet, but I am encouraged. She's seriously like a different dog, the change is so dramatic. Do you think three hours after one dose of antibiotics could make that huge a difference or this was just getting a little positive attention and strategically ignoring her? I still feel like I need to watch her closely b/c she's not house trained, but I guess I pretend not to unless I'm calling her to me? Could be a little bit of both? As far as giving attention -- I think it's a fine line that needs to be judged based on individual circumstances. When you (generic) bring a new dog into the home, it's really, really easy to way overdo the attention. It's just human nature to want to shower attention on a new pet. But sometimes more than just a little bit can be too much. It depends on the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzymom Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 If she has been in pain for a long period of time, it could certainly explain some of the aggression. I give you credit for getting pup to the vet and trying to hang in there! I agree with the nothing is free work, especially with a dog like this, and I really hope the changes you are seeing indicate the end of the worst of it! That said, you can only do what you can do. If the dog cannot be helped in a way that is reasonable for your family and your situation, please don't feel guilty looking for a rescue to take her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 That's the ball game. Have her put down. she bites viciously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 FWIW, I was never one of those prong collar alpha people. I generally train dogs with tether training, so I learn their signals and make sure they get what they need (like outside on time). This particular dog has spent a little more time in her crate than most- puppy play biting gets redirected, but real biting and growling gets a "NO No No!" and shoved into a crate to be ignored. We were letting her have whatever attention she wanted though, as well as a significant amount of negative attention because it seemed she was ALWAYS doing something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 How are things, now, Katy? W/ the flea situation and how she's acting and feeling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I just read some of the NILIF, yes even though we have a cat and not a dog, and our cat is a total alpha! Not only does he enter and exit first, but he has to race up the steps to the door and beat all of us. And he races in front of the vehicles in the driveway, across the front, not out in front. :001_rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I'm sure you're much more expert than me, but I adopted a difficult 2 year old a year ago and it was not fun. One year later he's wonderful. I'm betting your dog is traumatized from all the moves, all the people etc. I know mine was and I was so wrapped up with what he was and wasn't doing that I forgot how scared he must have been. (Mine wasn't potty trained either.) I sometimes wish I could do that month over again. I'd handle it differently. Do you know about slathering peanut butter on both ends of a bone -- not rawhide -- and sticking it in the freezer? Dogs love these peanut butter popsicles. There are also "bully sticks" that you can buy at Petco that dogs LOVE. My dog has a sensitive stomach and can handle both. Good luck to you. A new dog is really hard on everyone. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrich Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 If you are not up for the challenge, It is fine to allow someone else to do rehab her. The rescue group should be told all trait is going on with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 Well the fleas are mostly gone. We gave the dogs a bath yesterday only instead of just the baby shampoo I typically use I whipped in a few drops each of lavender and lemongrass oil right to the shampoo, then used much more shampoo than typical and saturated their fur with foam. Maybe 30 dead fleas washed out of her fur, and I haven't seen any on her (or any flea dirt) since. I did have one flea jump onto me yesterday after the bath, but she had just been on a walk so I suspect it came from outside. As for her behavior, it's hit or miss. She does not respond well to any negative attention at all, it just makes her increasingly violent either towards us or the smaller dog. If she's getting a little too mouthy you can just say "Do you need your crate?" softly and she usually calms down. She seems to have trouble behaving if she has to pee and at night. I suspect she's had a lot of trauma related to housebreaking and thinks she isn't supposed to pee ever, then when she gets upset or gets yelled at she pees many times in a few hours. Yesterday she followed me to the bathroom and peed on the other side of the bathroom right as I did. I didn't yet realize the extent that negative attention made things worse, yelled no, and took her outside where she got rather rambunctious and tried to attack the yorkie. I watched her very closely and she refused to pee outside for the rest of the day. I even did that trick where I wiped her bottom with a warm wet washcloth to indicate she should go now when we were outside. That seemed to prompt her to poop but not pee. She did sneak out of sight a few times inside but came back when we called her. The next time I went to the bathroom I realized she'd been peeing right in front of the toilet! I suspect she thought we were peeing in the bathroom so that must be the place to go. We ended up soaking up the urine with an old bathtowel and putting the towel outside where we want her to go. So we put a baby gate up to section off that part of the house, started putting her in her crate without criticism whenever she got mouthy, and after a minute or two of being calm we'd call her out and praise her. Last night I announced that whenever she peed outside all the dogs would get chicken jerky. I took her outside and softly said "all you need to do is go potty and then you'll get a treat!" She peed immediately and everyone got a treat when we went outside. She slept in her crate quietly until about 4 in the morning, and started the high pitched whining she does when she has to pee, but she wouldn't do it outside. I think she knew I was a little upset because she started trying to bite me randomly and tried to attack the yorkie repeatedly. I brought her in and put her in the crate. I decided to go with a different strategy and not give her any negative attention at all unless it was a safety issue for us or one of the dogs. She can't have any freedom until she's peed outside. Which means she's crated (in sight of us) if she's inside, and once an hour we'll go sit outside with her for 15 minutes until she pees outside. Then she gets lots of praise, a few treats, and can be off leash and out of crate for four hours. We haven't had more accidents with this plan yet, but if we do the plan is to ignore her completely, wipe up the urine with another old towel, and put that towel outside in the correct part of the yard too. When she gets too rambunctious and mouthy and can't be redirected to a toy we just put her in her crate without raising our voices. We're all trying really hard to make her do a trick for any treats, and to ignore her when she wants attention unless it's our idea. She does quickly flip from rambunctious to biting, which worries me, but for the most part it seems like typical lab puppy mouthy behavior until someone raises their voice, then she lashes out. She did bite my ear (didn't draw blood) when I was praising & snuggling her earlier. I suspect it was just a too-hard play bite, but I didn't see her face so I'm not sure. My current thought is that she might be better off in a home without children or small dogs, but I'm going to withhold judgment until she's through her antibiotics and hopefully housebroken. She's super cute and everyone at the vet fawned all over her, so I'm sure we won't have issues finding her a permanent home with a soft spoken person without children or small dogs once she's flea-free and housebroken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 It sounds as if you're beginning to get a good handle on her. As I was reading your last post, I kept thinking that what you've got is a reactive dog. I could be wrong. It's hard to really tell even in person sometimes what's causing a dog to act the way they do, let alone over the internet. That's especially true when you've got a new dog in a household, because it's such a stressful situation for them that what you see in the first week or so isn't always the dog's true personality. Normally you expect extra good behavior during that period (it's often referred to as the honeymoon period). But I think it can go the other way too -- the stress of trying to figure out what's expected can make an excitable dog even more of a handful. Anyway, you might want to do some reading on reactive dogs and see if it seems to fit. Here's one article that gives a fairly good overview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I'm glad you have a plan in place. I'm sorry you're going through this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 Yes, definitely reactive to negative attention, jealousy, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I'm worried about your Yorkie. Think of the stress your dog must be feeling due to the new-and-biting interloper in the house. Honestly, I'd love to tell you to keep the new dog forever, but what if she attacks the Yorkie and kills her one day? It could very easily happen. I am also concerned that the new dog might bite one of your kids. What kid could always avoid "negative" behavior with the dog? It's hard enough for an adult to do that. I hate to say this, because it sounds like your new dog had had a hard life and deserves a chance to be happy. I'm just not sure it should be in a home with kids and another pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yes, I increasingly think this is not her forever home. But I'll wait until she's off the antibiotics to find her a new place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowing Brook Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yes, I increasingly think this is not her forever home. But I'll wait until she's off the antibiotics to find her a new place. Yes, and please don't let anyone make you feel guilty for this. You have to do what is best for you and your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yes, and please don't let anyone make you feel guilty for this. You have to do what is best for you and your family. :iagree: It's so obvious that you want to make things work and that you're trying your very best. Honestly, I'm a bit annoyed that the rescue organization would have put that dog into a family with children and another pet. It seems irresponsible to me. The dog should have been fostered by someone with experience in behavioral issues until she was deemed ready to go to a forever home. And again, I would never place a dog that has a history of biting into a home with kids and pets. It's too risky for the family and too stressful for the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Peregrine Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I would have no qualms about rehoming or putting down an aggressive dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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