Ok, tell me about Saxon

[A home for their hearts]

In all my years of homeschooling I've never seen a Saxon book.  After hearing so many reviews saying it was a lot of drill and kill I never gave it a second look.  Now that my dc have strugged with math for years, I'm wondering if we should give it a try.  

Questions:

How easy/hard is it for dc to use independently?  I know I will still do some teaching but it would help if from time to time they could work on it on there own.

 

Does it teach math conceptually or does it just teach formulas?

 

On average, how much time does your dc spend on it each day.

 

I have a wide age range of children.  I would have two somewhere in 5/4 level and up and 1 possibly in whatever level would be equivalent to 3rd grade, and then a kindergarten/1st.  I was looking at Bob Jones for the younger 2 but haven't decided yet.

[ktgrok]

CLE is another option, and known for being fairly independent, as far as one can be with Math. 

[Ellie]

In all my years of homeschooling I've never seen a Saxon book.  After hearing so many reviews saying it was a lot of drill and kill I never gave it a second look.  Now that my dc have struggled with math for years, I'm wondering if we should give it a try.  

Questions:

How easy/hard is it for dc to use independently?  I know I will still do some teaching but it would help if from time to time they could work on it on there own.

 

Does it teach math conceptually or does it just teach formulas?

 

On average, how much time does your dc spend on it each day.

 

I have a wide age range of children.  I would have two somewhere in 5/4 level and up and 1 possibly in whatever level would be equivalent to 3rd grade, and then a kindergarten/1st.  I was looking at Bob Jones for the younger 2 but haven't decided yet.

 

If I were looking for a word or phrase to describe Saxon, "drill and kill" would not be on my list anywhere.

 

When you saw those reviews, did you not also see the many reviews from people who use it and love it? Saxon has been at the top of the math heap for over 20 years. :-)

 

I like it from Math 54 and up.

 

It definitely teaches concepts. It just does it differently (which is one of the reasons it has been so popular).

 

I prefer Rod and Staff for primary levels, then Saxon when the dc test into 54.

[A home for their hearts]

If I were looking for a word or phrase to describe Saxon, "drill and kill" would not be on my list anywhere.

 

When you saw those reviews, did you not also see the many reviews from people who use it and love it? Saxon has been at the top of the math heap for over 20 years. :-)

 

I like it from Math 54 and up.

 

It definitely teaches concepts. It just does it differently (which is one of the reasons it has been so popular).

 

I prefer Rod and Staff for primary levels, then Saxon when the dc test into 54.

 

It's been so long that I don't really even remember!  Could you give me an example of how it teaches concepts differently?  I'm really considering BJU for the early years.  We used R&S back when my older 2 when in early elementary, I didn't think it was very concept driven.

[scott777]

I would definitely NOT describe Saxon Math as "drill and kill".   That was a negative description used by the education establishment in the 80s and 90s to disparage John Saxon and his books because his books were making the "experts" look like fools - because they worked so well and the test results proved it.

 

What i love about the Saxon books 5/4 and up are that they DO teach the concepts very well.  I do read about many people not liking the books below 5/4 however (i have never used those).  The concepts are taught clearly and succinctly so that my children can read them independently and truly understand them.  These books make the math books and education that I received in the 80s look like a cruel joke.

 

The problem sets, which attract the "drill and kill" tag, are the key to the program.  These 30 review problems are crafted to include a certain mix of problems to strengthen the understanding of these problems and to move that understanding into long term memory - so called automaticity.  

 

Ironically, a true drill and kill program is more typically found in conventional unit programs where concepts are presented in chapter units.  In these programs, a concept is taught and then 30 problems of the same type are assigned.  This drill and kill, as I found with my children in their public school days with Everyday Mathematics,  resulted in a temporary or short term memory mastery.  How frustrating, boring,  and ineffective it was for them to drill 20- 30 of the same type of problem.  Even worse, the material was soon forgotten.  I think it is funny that some people term these unit programs as "mastery".  Far from it in my opinion.

 

Not so with the Saxon problem sets.  They are a challenge and more interesting to the student, because the child's brain is shifting from one concept to the other.  More importantly because of it being done OVER TIME, it becomes truly mastered.  This is really how we learn everything in life.  Math is the most difficult language currently known,  so there must be some rigor to learning it.  I also have a feeling that exercising the brain over 30 mixed problems  in this fashion leads to a better understanding of mathematics as a whole.  I can't prove this and have not found any studies, but to me it makes sense that the child's brain is making deeper connections with the relationships of math.

 

I think what I am trying to say here is better said by John Saxon himself in his introduction to Algebra 2 3rd edition:

 

"Concepts that were confusing when first encountered became familiar concepts after they had been practiced for a period of weeks or months - until finally they were understood.  Then further study of the same concepts caused additional understanding as totally unexpected ramifications appeared.  And, as we mastered these new abstractions, our understanding of seemingly unrelated concepts became clearer.

 

Thus, mathematics does not consist of unconnected topics that can be filed in separate compartments, studied once, mastered, and then neglected.  Mathematics is like a big ball made of pieces of string that have been tied together.  Many pieces touch directly, but the other pieces are all an integral part of the ball, and all must be rolled along together if understanding is to be achieved."

 

 

 

 

 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

We did Saxon K and Saxon 3 this year.  In the younger years, everything is scripted, and they do a fact sheet (which can be considered drill), and a worksheet.  The meeting can get old as the teacher.  They do calendar, warm-ups, skip counting, coin cup counting, count the clock, check the temperature, etc.  In K, they only do a calendar pattern in their meeting book.  However, although it can be tempting to skip the meeting, I would not skip all of it.  Do it at least every other day, and try to do the skip counting every day because it is so helpful in learning their facts easily.  Things do appear sometimes on tests and in worksheets that are learned in the meeting time.

 

The K book has no workbook or written work.  It is all manipulative play.  We did it in preschool, and we will be starting level 1 in kindergarten.  These lessons really only take 15 -20 minutes or so, and then the child can continue playing with the manipulatives.  Some often recommend starting with Saxon 1.  

 

The 3rd grade book takes about 20 -30 minutes for meeting and lesson (and interruptions).  Then they do their worksheets independently.  They have you time the fact sheets.  This stresses my child out, and we do not time them, but he takes FOREVER to do his math sometimes.  He'd rather read.

 

The 5/4 book (and up) is mostly independent.  They have a daily warmup and read their lesson and do their 25-30 problems.  This is mostly independent with some potential explanation from you if they have difficulty.  

 

You could easily switch to the 5/4 book around 4th grade after doing any other traditional math program.  Mastery of the facts is most important in K-3.  Some people don't like the younger Saxon books.  It has a different author.  The lessons are very scripted.  I like this, but it takes a bit more out of your day when you have two scripted meetings and lessons from K-3 to get through, as you will.  

 

I am not familiar with Bob Jones, but switching around the 5/4 is a popular choice if you prefer a different curriculum for the younger grades.

[Mike in SA]

Here is a perspective from a family of mathematicians...

 

Saxon teaches concepts, but not theory.  It is very focused on application, and repeats, repeats, repeats throughout the year.  This really works well for most kids, who honestly prefer technique & categorization over theory & creativity.  You will do well on tests after using Saxon.

 

Many math purists struggle with Saxon a bit because it focuses so heavily on categorical approaches.  If you prefer abstraction from a foundation, you won't get that from Saxon at all.  Math majors who were brought up on Saxon occasionally need to be "retaught" precalculus or calculus because of this.  It isn't that the students can't do problems -- it's that all they can do is solve problems that they have seen.  Again, for most kids, this is not an issue at all.  Saxon tests extremely well, and it also prepares you for most sciences. 

 

If, as a parent, you feel that math is not your strongest suit, then I would recommend Saxon highly.  If you have a strong background in math, I would recommend a classical approach.  No systems, gimmicks, or shortcuts -- just the old-fashioned, time-proven methods.  The older the textbook, the better.

[JoJosMom]

Caveat:  Saxon is an excellent program that works well for many students.

 

But...it does not work well for all.  It uses a spiral-incremental approach, which could also be described as "dribs and drabs," say, by my DD.  It does NOT work for her.  In fact, it makes her utterly insane.  She requires a mastery approach and the more conceptual the better.

 

You might want to take advantage of samples.  Let your DC take a look and get their input as to what works.

[Ellie]

I have a weird random question.  Why does it go grade k, 1, 2, 3, and then this 5/4, 6/5, 7/6, etc?  Does that have some sort of meaning?

 

John Saxon and Steve Hake wrote the first books (we acquired Math 76 first--photocopies of handwritten pages), with the series starting with Math 54. They didn't want to put any grade level-title on their books at all, because they are experience levels, not grade levels. The publisher insisted, and so the compromise was 54, 65, 76, 87 (and it is why the placement tests are so important, rather than deciding that 54 is for high fourth/regular fifth or whatever).

 

The primary levels were written much later. I guess the author (Nancy Larson, right? I haven't paid that much attention, lol) didn't care that much, IDK. :-)

[kiana]

Mike in SA has a lot of good points. I'm going to add a few more.

 

If your child is one of those who easily remembers with little repetition, Saxon is probably not the best choice. With a traditional program where the topics are organized by chapter, it is easy to teach the concept and then have them do a subset of the problems to see if they get it. Because of the mixed problem sets (which IS one of the strengths of Saxon), this is not a good idea for students in this program.

 

Some students really struggle with intuiting the big picture and do better if taught the whole concept at once. You will probably be able to figure it out if you have a student like this, because the review section will go quite well and then the struggles will start with new concepts.

 

One type of student I think it's ideal for is the struggling learner who's taught something and then promptly forgets. The mixed review makes this a lot more difficult.

 

Another one is the extremely self-directed student who is insistent on learning it alone.

 

There are also a fair number of students who will do fine with pretty much any reasonable math program.

[Ellie]

I'm tempted to switch.  I like SM and had great success with it with K, but now with A I don't know that it is the right program for him.  My hesitation though is that I think there are too many practice problems.  I think he'd be very overwhelmed and discouraged. 

 

My first experience with Saxon is Algebra 1.  My son is doing awesome with it.  I like how it is set up.  He does too.

 

With the primary levels, it is not expected that the children will do all the problems. The teachers are supposed to decide which ones and how many, based on how her students are doing.

 

This is different, of course, from the way Math 54 and above are written, where every.single.problem in every.single.problem.set needs to be done. :-)

[dollhouse]

I've been very pleased with Saxon Math. We've so far used 1, 3, and 5/4. From 5/4 and up, it can be done independently. The lower levels require you to teach the lesson, which consists of meeting time (calendar, counting, graphing weather/temp, coin cup, etc.), the lesson introducing a new concept, and a worksheet. The meeting time can get a bit tedious, so I don't always do all of the recommended intro material if my child has mastered it previously. But the worksheets are brief enough.

 

I love that the material is all scripted and there is very little prep needed on my part for the lower levels. And that my daughter can use 5/4 all by herself for the most part. Since I have 5 kids, ages 10 and under, this has made math one of my favorite and most successful subjects to teach.

[lewelma]

Saxon is drill and kill for some students, but not for others.  It really depends on the student.  If your student needs constant review to remember concepts, then Saxon would be excellent.  I have a boy that I tutor who would thrive on Saxon, but instead is failing in school because he simply forgets if he does not review regularly, and the textbook they are using has basically no review built in.

 

If you are worried about the lack teaching creative problem solving, simply supplement with the Singapore Challenging Word Problem series, a grade level down. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[Ellie]

Caveat:  Saxon is an excellent program that works well for many students.

 

But...it does not work well for all.  It uses a spiral-incremental approach, which could also be described as "dribs and drabs," say, by my DD.  It does NOT work for her.  In fact, it makes her utterly insane.  She requires a mastery approach and the more conceptual the better.

 

You might want to take advantage of samples.  Let your DC take a look and get their input as to what works.

 

"Dribs and drabs"? Huh.

 

Saxon begins by introducing a new concenpt, with a couple of problems, then the rest of the problems are on concepts previously taught (and those concepts are developed over several lessons); the next lesson teaches a little more on the new concept, with a few more problems on that concept plus the ones previously taught. Then the lesson teaches more on the concept, lots of problems on that concept, a little bit of a new concept, and more on concepts already taught. Every concept is reviewed in every problem set through the whole book.

 

That doesn't seem like "dribs and drabs" to me. :-)

[Erin]

I've never gotten how "drill and kill" applies to Saxon.  In education circles, "drill and kill" is used to refer to repetition of the same concept, over and over and over...   Saxon is pretty much the opposite of that.   Like scott said, "drill and kill" was coined to refer to programs that work via chapters and assign 30 problems of long division, or whatever.  

Maybe this is another one of those examples where the homeschool world mis-uses a term?  (...Like "curriculum")

 

My rising freshman actually used Saxon as one of his arguments for coming home in 7th grade.  He'd home schooled in 3rd and 4th, public schooled in 5th and 6th and was drowning by the time 7th started.  

"I was great at math in 5th, Mom, but now I'm really having trouble with it.  I need to go back to Saxon!"  (This from my kid who scores a 99%tile on the math sections of his Stanford, btw.  Math is his thing)  

 

He doesn't necessarily LIKE math class, but he likes having the skills in his toolbox, KWIM?  Ie, I don't like my hammer, but I like what it can do for me.  He doesn't necessarily have fun with it, but he'll tell you Saxon gives him a better grasp of math than anything else he's tried.  

 

(If there's a fun but strong series with a spiral approach, I'd love to hear about it.   ;) )

 

[bbcooker]

Okay, this thread has definitely made me think about choosing Saxon!

CLE is another option, and known for being fairly independent, as far as one can be with Math. 

I do like what I see of CLE in previews. 

 

I'd love to hear a comparison of Saxon and CLE.  I've started a new thread for this:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/520176-saxon-54-or-cle-proscons-of-each-differences/

 

 

 

[kiana]

"Dribs and drabs"? Huh.

 

Saxon begins by introducing a new concenpt, with a couple of problems, then the rest of the problems are on concepts previously taught (and those concepts are developed over several lessons); the next lesson teaches a little more on the new concept, with a few more problems on that concept plus the ones previously taught. Then the lesson teaches more on the concept, lots of problems on that concept, a little bit of a new concept, and more on concepts already taught. Every concept is reviewed in every problem set through the whole book.

 

That doesn't seem like "dribs and drabs" to me. :-)

 

It is the "teaches a little more on the new concept" that constitutes "dribs and drabs" for someone who really, really needs to see the whole picture at once.

[brookspr]

Here is a perspective from a family of mathematicians...

 

Saxon teaches concepts, but not theory.  It is very focused on application, and repeats, repeats, repeats throughout the year.  This really works well for most kids, who honestly prefer technique & categorization over theory & creativity.  You will do well on tests after using Saxon.

 

Many math purists struggle with Saxon a bit because it focuses so heavily on categorical approaches.  If you prefer abstraction from a foundation, you won't get that from Saxon at all.  Math majors who were brought up on Saxon occasionally need to be "retaught" precalculus or calculus because of this.  It isn't that the students can't do problems -- it's that all they can do is solve problems that they have seen.  Again, for most kids, this is not an issue at all.  Saxon tests extremely well, and it also prepares you for most sciences. 

 

If, as a parent, you feel that math is not your strongest suit, then I would recommend Saxon highly.  If you have a strong background in math, I would recommend a classical approach.  No systems, gimmicks, or shortcuts -- just the old-fashioned, time-proven methods.  The older the textbook, the better.

 

This is why we will not be using Saxon next year.  We used it last year in our first year of homeschooling (DS 11 did 7/6 and and DD 13 did Algebra 1) but kids did not really like the program.  DH and I have strong math backgrounds and want our kids to not only be able to solve the problems, but understand why those solutions work and how to apply them to ANY problem.  Both of our kids are good at math, but neither of them enjoys it much.  Adding that extra layer of "this is WHY it works like this" makes it more interesting for them and they retain the information better.

 

When our daughter was in PS they were working on how to calculate the circumference of a circle.  When my husband asked her what pi was, she said 3.14… He said, no, what does it represent? She had no idea.  He said, solve the equation c=(pi)d. It made her realize that pi was the ratio of circumference to diameter for any sized circle from a ping pong ball to the earth.  That's the kind of stuff Saxon doesn't do that my kids want so they better understand and can apply math concepts.

 

Yes, Saxon tests extremely well, but for me that's not the goal. I want the kids to understand why they are doing what they are doing to solve a math problem, for us that is more important than getting the right answer.  My son was so obsessed with getting the right answer on his math homework when we started homeschooling that my husband would write all of the answers in before he started.  He wanted our son to show all of the work it took to get there and not take shortcuts to get to the answer.

 

I'm not saying it can't work for everyone, it just wasn't the right fit for us and what we wanted from a math program.

[Erin]

When my husband asked her what pi was, she said 3.14… He said, no, what does it represent? She had no idea.  He said, solve the equation c=(pi)d. It made her realize that pi was the ratio of circumference to diameter for any sized circle from a ping pong ball to the earth.  That's the kind of stuff Saxon doesn't do that my kids want so they better understand and can apply math concepts.

 

Umm....actually it does.  

Each time Saxon (re)introduces the concept of pi, it's done with the relationship of circumference to pi and diameter.  Ie, circumferences and diameters are given so that kids can see that pi, while irrational, is a constant.  Now I completely understand that kids don't always grab what's given to them, but this isn't the case of the text not doing so.    

I had never realized that's where pi came from, btw, until I ran into it in a Saxon lesson.  

[Reefgazer]

I can't say it any better than this, and agree 100%.

 

My kids have only used the Saxon books for the middle grades, so I cannot comment on other levels.  But for middle grades, my kids are now very independent learners using Saxon, my DD is no longer crying about her piles of math homework (even though it takes her an hour to crank out a lesson), and she is an ace at her math!  She has no problem working across curricula and handling math problems she has not seen before because she can apply what she has learned; she simply prefers to work with Saxon rather than other curricula.  She is able to see that pi is a ratio without someone explicitly telling her because she has learned the background material so well that she does not need to think about computations and can focus on the problem itself.  My DS just started Saxon  not long ago, so time will tell if it suits him.  One point I would like to add is that "problem solving" in Saxon is not contained within a single lesson labelled "problem solving", but is spread out and mastered over many lessons, so it's tucked into the curriculum in a stealthy way and doesn't pop at you immediately.  

I would definitely NOT describe Saxon Math as "drill and kill".   That was a negative description used by the education establishment in the 80s and 90s to disparage John Saxon and his books because his books were making the "experts" look like fools - because they worked so well and the test results proved it.

 

What i love about the Saxon books 5/4 and up are that they DO teach the concepts very well.  I do read about many people not liking the books below 5/4 however (i have never used those).  The concepts are taught clearly and succinctly so that my children can read them independently and truly understand them.  These books make the math books and education that I received in the 80s look like a cruel joke.

 

The problem sets, which attract the "drill and kill" tag, are the key to the program.  These 30 review problems are crafted to include a certain mix of problems to strengthen the understanding of these problems and to move that understanding into long term memory - so called automaticity.  

 

Ironically, a true drill and kill program is more typically found in conventional unit programs where concepts are presented in chapter units.  In these programs, a concept is taught and then 30 problems of the same type are assigned.  This drill and kill, as I found with my children in their public school days with Everyday Mathematics,  resulted in a temporary or short term memory mastery.  How frustrating, boring,  and ineffective it was for them to drill 20- 30 of the same type of problem.  Even worse, the material was soon forgotten.  I think it is funny that some people term these unit programs as "mastery".  Far from it in my opinion.

 

Not so with the Saxon problem sets.  They are a challenge and more interesting to the student, because the child's brain is shifting from one concept to the other.  More importantly because of it being done OVER TIME, it becomes truly mastered.  This is really how we learn everything in life.  Math is the most difficult language currently known,  so there must be some rigor to learning it.  I also have a feeling that exercising the brain over 30 mixed problems  in this fashion leads to a better understanding of mathematics as a whole.  I can't prove this and have not found any studies, but to me it makes sense that the child's brain is making deeper connections with the relationships of math.

 

I think what I am trying to say here is better said by John Saxon himself in his introduction to Algebra 2 3rd edition:

 

"Concepts that were confusing when first encountered became familiar concepts after they had been practiced for a period of weeks or months - until finally they were understood.  Then further study of the same concepts caused additional understanding as totally unexpected ramifications appeared.  And, as we mastered these new abstractions, our understanding of seemingly unrelated concepts became clearer.

 

Thus, mathematics does not consist of unconnected topics that can be filed in separate compartments, studied once, mastered, and then neglected.  Mathematics is like a big ball made of pieces of string that have been tied together.  Many pieces touch directly, but the other pieces are all an integral part of the ball, and all must be rolled along together if understanding is to be achieved."

 

[...................]

Saxon works. It's gentle. It's easy to use. All explanations are included. The solutions manual has all solutions and the mixed review shows the number of the lesson where it was learned for every single mixed review in the entire book. It's affordable and logical. The mental math is awesome and actually one of my favorite aspects of the program.

 

Conceptually I would not say that is an area where Saxon shines but we always look things up in YouTube or ask a friend and that works. It definitely leans more toward teaching the how than the why. But whatever. Nothing is perfect.

 

Saxon is not colorful or fun but it works and it builds confidence! We are definitely Saxon fans - but in the sense of investing in a sports team

Rather than getting drunk, painting striped on our faces and screaming. We are fans in the sense of looking at the stock portfolio and investing 10,000 in the Yankees, looking forward to long term gains.

 

Lol I love my new analogy.

[mschickie]

Umm....actually it does.  

Each time Saxon (re)introduces the concept of pi, it's done with the relationship of circumference to pi and diameter.  Ie, circumferences and diameters are given so that kids can see that pi, while irrational, is a constant.  Now I completely understand that kids don't always grab what's given to them, but this isn't the case of the text not doing so.    

I had never realized that's where pi came from, btw, until I ran into it in a Saxon lesson.  

 

I agree!  Dd has been doing Saxon for (started with 65) for 3 years now and she can explain the concepts.  Maybe because I was a math major I know the questions to ask her, but she does get it.  Now you might say that since I was a math major that I "taught" her the concepts separate from the books but I rarely have to teach her anything.  I find Saxon to be so well laid out that she can read it and then gets it.  Now a child whose strong suit is not math may need a little more help but the examples are really good and the repetition is so helpful in not letting kids forget how to work early covered material that I highly recommend Saxon for 54 and up. 

[scott777]

Yes, I am very surprised how much Saxon gets criticized for lacking conceptual instruction.  In fact, I thought the teaching of pi was excellent through 3 of the books.  As a matter of fact,  Math 7/6 had an excellent investigation activity that cemented the understanding of pi for my son.  Now in Math 8/7 it is a given to him.  

 

In my opinion, Stephen Hake and John Saxon really thought thing out with the program especially the balance between concepts and practicing.  Oh and the mental math is INVALUABLE in my view.

[Pen]

I bought it in 3rd grade and it was a complete waste of money at that level. I did not care for it at all to put it mildly, and was left with the sense that it was deadly dull and drill and kill.

 

More recently I got the 8/7 with Prealgebra level to do along with AoPS, and it is very good. It may even become the spine with AoPS being the supplement.

 

It is possible that a lot of the negatives you are seeing are from people like me who had a bad experience with the pre 5/4 level.

[MiMi 4under3]

If I were looking for a word or phrase to describe Saxon, "drill and kill" would not be on my list anywhere.

 

 

I would definitely NOT describe Saxon Math as "drill and kill".   

 

 

See, I DO consider Saxon "drill and kill," but that's why I love it!   :lol: 

 

I see it as an advantage - definitely a "pro" and not a "con!"

[Erin]

The timed tests, maybe?

Truly, I do not understand what people are finding in Saxon that is "drill", must less "kill"

[Erin]

No, this has nothing to do with choices or methods or anything. 

 

 

This is confusion over the seeming mis-application of a term...  

Rather like if people kept referring to plain Jane, B&W Saxon as "colorful."  I just keep thinking I must be missing something...

[Erin]

Yes, "death spiral" would actually be logical!  lol

[Erin]

Doh! double post

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I bought it in 3rd grade and it was a complete waste of money at that level. I did not care for it at all to put it mildly, and was left with the sense that it was deadly dull and drill and kill.

 

More recently I got the 8/7 with Prealgebra level to do along with AoPS, and it is very good. It may even become the spine with AoPS being the supplement.

 

It is possible that a lot of the negatives you are seeing are from people like me who had a bad experience with the pre 5/4 level.

 

This is interesting.

 

We used Saxon for a couple of the early years and didn't care for it.  After reading this thread,  I'm curious how the upper levels are different.  Would you care to share the specifics of your possible flip to Saxon becoming the spine?  How will you alternate between the two?

 

Now I wonder if I've completely misjudged Saxon. I hear so much negative chatter about it that I just presumed there was no need to even consider it.

[JoJosMom]

Woodland Mist:  We have experience with separate levels of Saxon.  For background, I posted above in #8. That covers my summary. (All other readers, especially the die hard Saxon types, please also note my caveat above.)

 

We tried Saxon in 3rd grade and nearly died.  Both I and DD hated it.  She was in a BM Christian school last year and used Saxon 7/6 and 8/7.  She still hated it. Hated, HATED, HATED it.  Again, to repeat my caveat above (and hopefully to forestall the abuse):  Saxon is a great program for many kids.  BUT, it depends on the child.  My child thrives with a mastery approach; Math Mammoth was her friend. So, know your student and consider taking advantage of the samples.  HTH.

[A home for their hearts]

It's seems I've opened a can of worms!  Thanks everyone for your opinions on Saxon, it's really help me in determining if it would be the right fit for my dc.  I know for a couple of my dc it would not.  I have a friend who might have 5/4, if she can find it I'm going to take a good look at it.  I don't think the early grades would work for me, too much scripting, it would probably drive me nuts, even though it may work for my dd6.

 

My ds13 seems to struggle with being taught too many methods.  For examples, in MM multi-digit multiplication, it taught "the easy way" to multiply, then it taught the standard way, now it's teaching a the trick of multipyling a larger number with zero, ie. 20X386, it teaches that you just place a zero in the ones place then continue multiplying the rest, this completely confused him.  If really prefers doing the long way.  Too many different ways of doing one thing is really confusing him.  Does Saxon do this?  I think part of the problem is, even though there are practice problems before moving on to the next method he hasn't really mastered the one being taught then he gets confused.  So if Saxon just teaches a little bit of a new method, then spirals, that might confuse him as well.

[bbcooker]

It's seems I've opened a can of worms!  Thanks everyone for your opinions on Saxon, it's really help me in determining if it would be the right fit for my dc.  I know for a couple of my dc it would not.  I have a friend who might have 5/4, if she can find it I'm going to take a good look at it.  I don't think the early grades would work for me, too much scripting, it would probably drive me nuts, even though it may work for my dd6.

 

My ds13 seems to struggle with being taught too many methods.  For examples, in MM multi-digit multiplication, it taught "the easy way" to multiply, then it taught the standard way, now it's teaching a the trick of multipyling a larger number with zero, ie. 20X386, it teaches that you just place a zero in the ones place then continue multiplying the rest, this completely confused him.  If really prefers doing the long way.  Too many different ways of doing one thing is really confusing him.  Does Saxon do this?  I think part of the problem is, even though there are practice problems before moving on to the next method he hasn't really mastered the one being taught then he gets confused.  So if Saxon just teaches a little bit of a new method, then spirals, that might confuse him as well.

 

I'm at the same point with my dc, teaching multiplication, at this same level too.  Yes - someone please comment about the above quote.  :)  I want to see the replies.

 

[kiana]

My ds13 seems to struggle with being taught too many methods.  For examples, in MM multi-digit multiplication, it taught "the easy way" to multiply, then it taught the standard way, now it's teaching a the trick of multipyling a larger number with zero, ie. 20X386, it teaches that you just place a zero in the ones place then continue multiplying the rest, this completely confused him.  If really prefers doing the long way.  Too many different ways of doing one thing is really confusing him.  Does Saxon do this?  I think part of the problem is, even though there are practice problems before moving on to the next method he hasn't really mastered the one being taught then he gets confused.  So if Saxon just teaches a little bit of a new method, then spirals, that might confuse him as well.

 

I don't think this seems like a good fit for Saxon.

[Arcadia]

... now it's teaching a the trick of multipyling a larger number with zero, ie. 20X386, it teaches that you just place a zero in the ones place then continue multiplying the rest, this completely confused him.

This method is not a trick though. It goes with understanding place value. Same for putting two zeros when multiplying by hundreds.

I'll add in more review for multiplication with large numbers before moving on to multiplication with decimals.

 

Quite a few private schools has posted entire Saxon books on the internet from Saxon 3 all the way to PreCal. Good if you want a quick look through before you buy.

[A home for their hearts]

This method is not a trick though. It goes with understanding place value. Same for putting two zeros when multiplying by hundreds.

I'll add in more review for multiplication with large numbers before moving on to multiplication with decimals.

 

Quite a few private schools has posted entire Saxon books on the internet from Saxon 3 all the way to PreCal. Good if you want a quick look through before you buy.

 

I'm having a problem understanding how it works.  MM doesn't really teach why it works this way, it just teaches to tag on the zeros, which surprised me because MM almost always teaches the why, not just the how.  I'm struggling with helping him to understand it because I really don't understand it myself.  

[Lori D.]

"Dribs and drabs"? Huh.

 

I like "dribs and drabs". :) A drip or a trickle, pause and swallow and digest, then another drip or a trickle. :)

 

Another way of explaining it is a lesson has: one or several small "bites" of instruction in several topics; practice with those "bites"; and review problems. Repeat for the next lesson. The next "bite" of instruction on a topic may come in the next lesson, or 3-5 lessons later.

 

For many students, that's a great match up for the way they learn math -- incrementally taking in information on a concept or several concepts, pausing to digest and internalize (while also reviewing to keep up past info), and then spiraling around later in the book to get another increment that builds on to what came before.

 

But it's not a match for everyone. No math program is. Like previous poster, DS#1 here needs mastery -- "dribs & drabs" and so many pauses killed all forward progress and ability to master the big picture for him; also waaayyyy toooo muuccchhh review for him; once he gets the concept, it's his -- constant review was "drill & kill" for him.

 

Also not a match for DS#2 with mild LDs. He needed very concrete big-picture explanations and visual/hands-on to be able to "see" the abstract concepts of math. Starting in 5/4, Saxon is much more abstract in explanation, presenting the algorithm and steps in how to solve specific types of problems.

[kiana]

I'm having a problem understanding how it works.  MM doesn't really teach why it works this way, it just teaches to tag on the zeros, which surprised me because MM almost always teaches the why, not just the how.  I'm struggling with helping him to understand it because I really don't understand it myself.  

 

Ohh.

 

So let's look at your example, 20x386. 20 is 2x10, right? So instead of multiplying by 20 directly, we can multiply by 10 and then multiply by 2, and it will give the same answer.

 

Multiplying by 10 is where we tack the 0 on to the end. But why does this work? To understand this, you really need to understand place value. What is 386? 386 is 300 + 80 + 6 -- or 3 hundreds, 8 tens, and 6 ones. When we multiply by 10, it turns the hundreds into thousands, the tens into hundreds, and the ones into tens. Then we have 3 thousands, 8 hundreds, and 6 tens, or 3000 + 800 + 60, which is written as 3860.

 

Now we've multiplied by 10, but we were *trying* to multiply by 20. Since 20 is 10x2, we just have to multiply by 2 to get the final answer.

 

I'm surprised by teaching this *after* the standard algorithm. In my mind, this is essential to understanding the standard algorithm.

 

Here's a khan academy video about multiplying by multiples of 10.

 

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/arithmetic/multiplication-division/multi_digit_multiplication/v/multiplying-by-multiples-of-10

[Pen]

Also, sometimes children's needs change at different times. A child may need a mastery program at one point, and at another point do better with spiral. Or a child may need a page with more white space at one point and at another do better with more on the page--or do better with color vs. black and white, or do better with hands-on manipulatives or not.

[Lori D.]

How easy/hard is it for dc to use independently?  I know I will still do some teaching but it would help if from time to time they could work on it on there own.

 

At the Saxon 54 level and above: If the student is not a math-struggler, and if Saxon is a good match with the student's learning style, it can be fairly independent. There are DIVE CDs with video tutorials as helpful supplement, starting at 54. However, beginning with Saxon 54, there is NO workbook -- students use a textbook and copy each problem onto paper, and then solve. (Side note: This can be difficult for students with writing LDs. Turning lined paper sideways (so the lines now make columns), or using graph paper, can help students make this transition and keep everything lined up and reducing errors.)

 

Saxon K, 1, 2, 3 are very parent-intensive. These levels use lots of manipulatives, and are very scripted, and use timed math fact worksheets in addition to the daily lesson. For each of these levels, there is a workbook for the student to write in.

 

 

Does it teach math conceptually or does it just teach formulas?

 

Yes it teaches concepts, not just formulas, BUT, Saxon becomes increasing abstract (rather than concrete) in presentation the higher up in the levels it goes (a jump up at Saxon 54, and then another jump up at Algebra 1) -- it is very much focused on algorithm (steps of equation solving), which works great for students who are good with abstract thinking and who mentally connect the dots between formulas and the big picture of "why it works".

 

Students who need a concrete / tangible / visual method of seeing the concepts will probably miss that connection (much like the previous poster mentioned with the example of teaching the concept of "pi"). For these students, using Saxon becomes an exercise in trying to memorize algorithms, but have no understanding of how/why they works. Without any math connections to the "big picture", they cannot figure out what formulas to use and when -- much less why THAT formula.

 

 

On average, how much time does your dc spend on it each day.

 

These are roughly the *average* amounts of time I see people scheduling for Saxon, depending on the student

- 30-45 min/day = Saxon K, 1, 2, 3

- 45-75 min/day = Saxon 54, 65

- 60-90 min/day = Saxon 78, 87, Algebra 1/2

- 1+ to 2 hours/day = high school levels of math

 

 

... I've never seen a Saxon book…. I'm having a problem understanding how it works...

 

Saxon topics are broken into very small incremental steps, spread out over a number of lessons, often with 3-5 lessons in between one step and another. Each lesson has small "bites" of instruction on several topics, and also includes a good amount of review. This is the spiral method, and this small-bite-spread-out strategy works well for many math strugglers if they need to work slowly and have only small additions to the concept after they've had a number of days to process the step that came before. HOWEVER, the spiral method can be very disruptive to understanding for OTHER types of math strugglers -- those who need to focus on a single topic without distraction, and who need concrete explanations rather than abstract algorithm explanations.

 

 

I have a wide age range of children.  I would have two somewhere in 5/4 level and up and 1 possibly in whatever level would be equivalent to 3rd grade, and then a kindergarten/1st.  I was looking at Bob Jones for the younger 2 but haven't decided yet.

 

For a program somewhat similar in style to Saxon that is specifically designed for almost completely independent use by the student, you may want to check out Teaching Textbooks (TT), which has levels for grade 3 up through Pre-Calculus. Every single problem (not just the teaching examples) is worked out on the video, in case the student needs a huge amount of hand-holding. It is computer-based. While very expensive, if it is a good fit for most or all of your students, you can re-use for each new student, and then re-sell when done, as TT has a good re-sale value.

 

 

Hope that helps! BEST of luck in finding what works best for math for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[SkateLeft]

I'm one of those folks who didn't care for Saxon, but I know plenty of people whose kids have used it successfully and gone on to STEM careers. I tried it numerous times, and it just never worked for my older three. Over the years, I've tried 1, 2, 3, 5/4, 7/6 and Algebra 1. For each kid, there were different reasons that it didn't work. Instead, I had a lot of success with Singapore Math.

 

With that said, my youngest ds is using the Saxon Intermediate 3, and I LOVE it. Originally, I was going to just put him in 5/4, but then I saw Intermediate 3 and figured we'd try it. It's so much better than the old scripted Saxon Math 3! Each day is a little different, so there's never the sense that we're doing the same thing day in and day out. It doesn't feel plodding or immature like the old Math 3. I think it'll be a much nicer transition into 5/4, though I might just keeping going with Intermediate 4, since we really like this Intermediate series so far!

 

He used Math in Focus before and found it very easy, but there were little things about MiF that I didn't like.

[scott777]

kiana,

 

I think that place value understanding really shines in Saxon's mental math sections.  Right from 5/4, Stephen Hake starts teaching mental math strategies with regrouping, partial products techniques, half of 10,  etc.  that really cement place value knowledge for the students.  I am bummed that my oldest only started the mental math with the 8/7 book, but even with him his ability has increased tremendously.

 

Can't wait to see how my daughter who started the 5/4 book progressive on up through the Saxon series with these kind of mental math exercises.

[A home for their hearts]

I'm one of those folks who didn't care for Saxon, but I know plenty of people whose kids have used it successfully and gone on to STEM careers. I tried it numerous times, and it just never worked for my older three. Over the years, I've tried 1, 2, 3, 5/4, 7/6 and Algebra 1. For each kid, there were different reasons that it didn't work. Instead, I had a lot of success with Singapore Math.

 

With that said, my youngest ds is using the Saxon Intermediate 3, and I LOVE it. Originally, I was going to just put him in 5/4, but then I saw Intermediate 3 and figured we'd try it. It's so much better than the old scripted Saxon Math 3! Each day is a little different, so there's never the sense that we're doing the same thing day in and day out. It doesn't feel plodding or immature like the old Math 3. I think it'll be a much nicer transition into 5/4, though I might just keeping going with Intermediate 4, since we really like this Intermediate series so far!

 

He used Math in Focus before and found it very easy, but there were little things about MiF that I didn't like.

 

Do you know what the differences are between the intermediate and traditional saxon?  Are they written by the same author?

[kiana]

Do you know what the differences are between the intermediate and traditional saxon?  Are they written by the same author?

 

Intermediate is by Hake -- I haven't looked at it, but Cathy Duffy's site has a review which compares intermediate and traditional to some extent -- http://cathyduffyreviews.com/math/saxon-math-intermediate-series.htm

[bbcooker]

Quite a few private schools has posted entire Saxon books on the internet from Saxon 3 all the way to PreCal. Good if you want a quick look through before you buy.

Can you link some?  I'm interested in Saxon 54, and I couldn't find samples online.  Thanks!

[Arcadia]

Can you link some?  I'm interested in Saxon 54, and I couldn't find samples online.  Thanks!

 

e.g. from a public school. https://www.lamoure.k12.nd.us/pcarlson/files/2013/02/SaxonMathStuden54.pdf

[bbcooker]

thanks!

[A home for their hearts]

I'm laughing looking through 5/4. We're pretty average here and my seven year old could already do the first third of the text. That makes me feel like less of a parental failure :D

 

Oh my, I wouldn't say your 7 year old is average then.  I'm pretty sure my ds10 would struggle with 5/4.  

[Mike in SA]

Ok, back to the explanation of "concept." Saxon gives a 1-page explanation of a concept, followed by examples and exercises. It is just great for most sciences, engineering, and business applications. For mathematicians, not so much. How many kids will be mathematicians, anyway? Not many. It's why I won't ever bash Saxon. It works.

 

But, you won't get a development of the basic set theory make up of arithmetic when you lead into algebra. The theory of arithmetic is the foundation that makes up all of algebra. Does this matter for 99% of kids? Probably not. Does every kid need symbolic logic, analytic geometry, and a geometric development of trigonometry? Those concepts exist in Saxon, but are never developed. It's always a brief, high level intro followed by limited, targeted application.

 

Engineers, physicists, and mathematicians are very different. Being "good at math" makes for quality engineers, chemists, and economists. No harm there!

 

Good physicists need to be able to synthesize mathematical models, which requires a much more solid grasp of theory. If your child is leaning this way, you may need to supplement Saxon.

 

Pure mathematics requires even greater facilities for decomposition and composition. If your child is thinking of this, then save yourself some pain after 5/4 and switch to something more pure, like AoPS.

 

My credentials? Both my wife and I are experienced university instructors. Between us and our parents, four PhDs in mathematics and/or physics, and a couple of masters and bachelor's degrees in math and physics... The comments about "unteaching Saxon" comes from years of firsthand experience. DS12 uses it at school, but we pre-teach the theory and supplement with Gelfand and AoPS. He is not among the 99%, though. He is about six years ahead of pace because he consumes theory and can't go slower.

 

For the majority, I would say don't be afraid of Saxon being drill and kill, but do make sure that you don't short change any problem or lesson. It is a system that is engineered to be done completely. If you skip, you will add to the numbers that need to be remediated. If you have a kid that creates theory on the fly, then avoid Saxon or supplement. That child will have to be untaught otherwise.

 

My wife's opinions are a little stronger than mine, but that's because she teaches a few remedial college courses, and has had a few too many cases. DS's school has been very successful using Saxon (teachers have advanced degrees in the field!), so my feelings are not so strong... I really believe it can be a solid choice in a balanced math education.

[Arcadia]

In all my years of homeschooling I've never seen a Saxon book.  ..........

I would have two somewhere in 5/4 level and up and 1 possibly in whatever level would be equivalent to 3rd grade, and then a kindergarten/1st.  I was looking at Bob Jones for the younger 2 but haven't decided yet.

 

If you want to take a look at what a public school posted for intermediate 3, 4 and 5 books, here's the link

Intermediate 5 written practice workbook posted by a private school. 

Scope and sequence for 5/4, 6/5, 7/6, 8/7

Scope and sequence for intermediate 3,4,5

 

Hope it helps you in deciding what might work for your children.