What's with the Airlines?

[Alicia64]

DH has a new job and he travels a lot more now. Every single time he's supposed to fly home his flight gets cancelled, re-routed, you name it.

 

In the winter when it was snowing we chalked it up to weather, but it's been happening in the spring too. Tonight he was supposed to be home by 9:15. Then it turned into 11 p.m. Then 1 a.m. Then it got cancelled completely. Finally he called just now and said four of his team are renting a car and driving from the state they're in to our state and forgoing the airline all together. He thinks he'll be home by 3 a.m.

 

This happened last time too which was early May -- the weather was fine. 

 

It's United so obviously he's asking his HR group to put him on another airline and hope that helps. But this never happened in the "old days." Is this the airlines' new way of doing business?

 

Btw, each time this has happened -- six times now -- he's been returning from different states. It's not the same airport nor the same weather conditions.

 

I'm stunned that this keeps happening. I keep telling our boys, "Dad's getting home at such and such hour" and the next thing I know I'm putting them to bed saying, "Dad will be home when you wake up." :(

 

Is this your experience too?

 

Alley

[OneStepAtATime]

DH is so fed up with that same issue and with that same airline that he now frequently flies American.

[Crimson Wife]

I've heard that cancellations are up since the FAA put some policy in place a few years back guaranteeing pilots more rest time.

[Alicia64]

I've heard that cancellations are up since the FAA put some policy in place a few years back guaranteeing pilots more rest time.

 

I have no problem with that, but if you offer a flight time -- and the flight is paid for -- it needs to be honored. It's not like the sleep issue comes and goes. The pilots need their eight hours every night -- like all of us.

 

Why are the airlines scheduling flights and then not honoring the schedule?

 

That it's happened so much is what's confusing me.

 

Alley

[AK_Mom4]

Bleah! I hear you!

 

Thanks to cancelled flights and late arrivals, our 16 hour cross country flight home has turned into a 23 hour slog with 5 hour layovers each in two different airports.

 

I think flying anywhere is more difficult than it used to be. Going thru TSA is the easy part theE days.

[Mandylubug]

I do know it is "summer storm weather" season. Many flights are delayed and if a flight is grounded in one city, it can cause a snow ball effect at other cities waiting on the arrival of that plane. DH gets more overtime hours due to inclement in weather during spring and summer than winter hands down.

[school17777]

My sister flies with American to visit several times a year. It has not been our (I usually pick her up) experience. If anything, the plane often arrives earlier than expected.

[Butter]

My husband has flown a lot for work over the last few years.  He pretty much exclusively uses Southwest if possible.  They're often early rather than on time.  I flew Southwest last month and going out we arrived 15 minutes early and coming back we arrived 20 minutes early.  American is his number two choice if Southwest isn't an option.  Every, Single. Time. he flew United it was cancelled or delayed.  That is definitely his airline of last resort.

[Alicia64]

My husband has flown a lot for work over the last few years.  He pretty much exclusively uses Southwest if possible.  They're often early rather than on time.  I flew Southwest last month and going out we arrived 15 minutes early and coming back we arrived 20 minutes early.  American is his number two choice if Southwest isn't an option.  Every, Single. Time. he flew United it was cancelled or delayed.  That is definitely his airline of last resort.

 

Yes, Southwest was great, but we're not in their area anymore. Although I'm going to have DH read this thread -- it looks like he needs to try American. Thanks for the advice.

 

Re: summer storms. Summer storms have always been a factor. I don't understand why things have gotten so bad. I used to fly a lot as a kid -- often alone -- and these delays and cancels never or rarely happened. Now it's happening to DH every single trip.

 

Alley

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, Southwest was great, but we're not in their area anymore. Although I'm going to have DH read this thread -- it looks like he needs to try American. Thanks for the advice.

 

Re: summer storms. Summer storms have always been a factor. I don't understand why things have gotten so bad. I used to fly a lot as a kid -- often alone -- and these delays and cancels never or rarely happened. Now it's happening to DH every single trip.

 

Alley

Alice64, I agree with your thoughts here.  I highly recommend your DH definitely look at switching to American.  When Continental was not part of United, DH rarely had any issues and used that airline almost exclusively.  And he flies A LOT.  But when United took over Continental it has been none stop schedule changes, flights dropped, flights delayed, flights canceled, etc. etc.  He hates flying United.  American usually does great unless there are storms.

[Jenn in FL]

Re: Delays and Cancellations.

 

There are always a vast array of factors that may be occurring individually or often times in tandem that create travel havoc.  Someone near and dear to me (and with whom I share children  :P ) comes home later than originally planned or calls and says he won't make it back home tonight because of...

 

Pick one or more of the following:

 

1. " My jet broke."  It may be a minor trouble light type issue that just requires a maintenance service or it may be  a major issue such as a cargo door that won't close and they need to unload the aircraft both baggage and passengers and traipse back into the terminal until a new aircraft can be located.  Sometimes the airline decides to "rob Peter to pay Paul" and take an aircraft destined for elsewhere.  Then they have to play catch up and keep rolling equipment until they catch up.

 

2.  "My jet broke before it took off from its previous destination."  We are waiting on maintenance (there) to fix it and send it this way.

 

3.  "We are on a weather hold."  "We are on a ground hold."  "We aren't on a hold any more, but there are 23 jets ahead of us waiting to take off and cutting in line is frowned upon."  

 

4.  "We are in danger of going illegal."  (The FAA has recently implemented stringent rules regarding mandatory rest/sleep periods.Sometimes one of the above reasons will cause the pilots to no longer be able to fly that leg of their trip.)

 

5.  "The crew (flight attendants) are in danger of going illegal."  (Ditto.)

 

6.  "The water in the lavatory tanks froze and its a four hour flight back.  We're not moving until they get this fixed,""  (From Canada in January!)

 

6.  And my all time favorite.  "A monkey got loose and they have to clean the plane."   Say what????    :willy_nilly:

 

 

[Excelsior! Academy]

American makes you pay for bags at the airport.  You cannot pay online.  A nightmare if minors without credit cards are flying alone.  We are not fans of American.

[J-rap]

Well if your husband is on the east coast tonight, a lot of flights were apparently canceled due to weather and dense fog.  My daughter was supposed to be on one of those flights and is stranded.  It does seem like it happens more lately, but if it's weather-related, better safe than sorry.

[kitten18]

I will just say we don't fly United AT ALL, miserable experiences.

 

Pretty much, if we can't fly SW, we don't fly.

[OneStepAtATime]

American makes you pay for bags at the airport.  You cannot pay online.  A nightmare if minors without credit cards are flying alone.  We are not fans of American.

Hadn't thought about that angle since DH almost exclusively flies alone.  United is so bad now, at least for his business flights, that he tries very hard not to fly United at all.  But that leaves him stuck with American unless he wants to drive an hour + to the next airport.  Thankfully, for DH, American has been great.

 

I will definitely keep this in mind if the kids are traveling, though.

[TechWife]

My husband travels a lot. There are typically weather delays in the winter and the spring. The spring delays are due to thunder/lightening storms. Planes can not land or take of safely in high winds. These closures have a  cascade effect. It is totally normal, you don't want a plane flying in unsafe conditions. 

 

Think of it like this: 

 

Plane 1 takes off from city A, bound for city B. 

Plane 2 is at gate ZZ in city B boarding passengers.

Plane 3 is ready to land for in city B.

A storm comes up in city B. 

Plane 3, which was ready to land in city B, circles the airport waiting for the storm to clear

Plane 2 stays at gate ZZ in city B with passengers on board because they can't take off

Plane 4 is on the runway in city B waiting for weather to clear so they can take off.

Plane 5 at city A doesn't board it's passengers because they know they won't be able to land in city B. 

Plane 1 arrives near city B and is circling the airport because they can't land due to the storm (now there are two planes circling city B).

Plane 3 is low on gas, so they go to the next nearest airport (city C) to refuel. 

The airport in City B re-opens. 

Plane 1 lands in city B, but they can't get to the gate because Plane 2 is still at gate ZZ waiting to take off. They sit on the tarmac waiting. 

Plane 4 takes off from city B.

Plane 5 takes off from city A for city B. 

Plane 2 pushes back from the gate at City B and gets in line to take off, then takes off. 

Plane 1 goes to gate ZZ and the passengers disembark. The plane has to wait for more passengers to board before it takes of for city D.  

Plane 3, which has been sitting on the ground in city C, now takes of for city B. 

Plane 1 leaves gate ZZ and takes off for city D.  

Plane 3  arrives in city B, and is supposed to go on to city E. They pull in to gate ZZ. However, because they circled so long and were re-routed for fuel, the pilots have now flown the maximum time that they are allowed for that day. Plane 3 is delayed (and does not board passengers) while the airline locates another crew that can take the hours. They find a crew, but they are in route to city B from city F in plane 5.  Passengers & crew disembark from plane 3, luggage is removed. 

Plane 3 is pulled away from the gate with no passengers on board.

Plane 5 pulls up to gate ZZ, passengers & crew disembark and the plane is pulled away from the gate.

Plane 3 is pulled back up to gate ZZ.  

The Crew from Plane 5 now boards plane 3, passengers board and the plane, baggage team reloads baggage and they finally leaves city B for city E, five hours behind schedule. 

 

Multiply that 100 times over and you can begin to get a feel for what is going on in multiple airports around the country when there is a storm in one city or region. Travelers are late for meetings, are missing connections, kids recitals, etc.. 

 

I will say that patience is very important. The travelers who remain calm and are nice to the gate staff are very much appreciated. Delays are stressful on the gate crew as well and passengers really need to remember that. Unfortunately, people are often rude to these folks who are just trying to do their jobs. 

 

Some tips: 

Your husband should avoid checking baggage if at all possible. 

If he must check baggage, he should keep a change of clothes in his carry on.

If a delay causes him to miss a connection, the airline will reroute him on another flight, possibly another airline. 

Do not stand around the gate waiting for your group to be called ( those people are called "gate lice") - just stay seated. The gate area gets over-crowded and then the people who have been called can't make it to the gate easily.  

The more you fly, the more pull you have. The different reward levels are very much earned by those who have them. Please don't stare at them or groan when they board first or get bumped to first class. They are away from home more than they want to be.

If your husband travels a route regularly (maybe he goes from San Francisco to Chicago every week, for example) he will see the same crew members - take the time to learn their names & chat with them a bit if time permits, they have stressful jobs. 

 

 

 

 

[Alicia64]

My husband travels a lot. There are typically weather delays in the winter and the spring. The spring delays are due to thunder/lightening storms. Planes can not land or take of safely in high winds. These closures have a  cascade effect. It is totally normal, you don't want a plane flying in unsafe conditions. 

 

Think of it like this: 

 

Plane 1 takes off from city A, bound for city B. 

Plane 2 is at gate ZZ in city B boarding passengers.

Plane 3 is ready to land for in city B.

A storm comes up in city B. 

Plane 3, which was ready to land in city B, circles the airport waiting for the storm to clear

Plane 2 stays at gate ZZ in city B with passengers on board because they can't take off

Plane 4 is on the runway in city B waiting for weather to clear so they can take off.

Plane 5 at city A doesn't board it's passengers because they know they won't be able to land in city B. 

Plane 1 arrives near city B and is circling the airport because they can't land due to the storm (now there are two planes circling city B).

Plane 3 is low on gas, so they go to the next nearest airport (city C) to refuel. 

The airport in City B re-opens. 

Plane 1 lands in city B, but they can't get to the gate because Plane 2 is still at gate ZZ waiting to take off. They sit on the tarmac waiting. 

Plane 4 takes off from city B.

Plane 5 takes off from city A for city B. 

Plane 2 pushes back from the gate at City B and gets in line to take off, then takes off. 

Plane 1 lands at airport A, goes to gate ZZ and the passengers disembark. The plane has to wait for more passengers to board before it takes of for city D.  

Plane 3, which has been sitting on the ground in city C, now takes of for city B. 

Plane 1 leaves gate ZZ and takes off for city D.  

Plane 3  arrives in city B, and is supposed to go on to city E. They pull in to gate ZZ. However, because they circled so long and were re-routed for fuel, the pilots have now flown the maximum time that they are allowed for that day. Plane 3 is delayed (and does not board passengers) while the airline locates another crew that can take the hours. They find a crew, but they are in route to city B from city F in plane 5.  Passengers & crew disembark from plane 3, luggage is removed. 

Plane 3 is pulled away from the gate with no passengers on board.

Plane 5 pulls up to gate ZZ, passengers & crew disembark and the plane is pulled away from the gate.

Plane 3 is pulled back up to gate ZZ.  

The Crew from Plane 5 now boards plane 3, passengers board and the plane, baggage team reloads baggage and they finally leaves city B for city E, five hours behind schedule. 

 

Multiply that 100 times over and you can begin to get a feel for what is going on in multiple airports around the country when there is a storm in one city or region. Travelers are late for meetings, are missing connections, kids recitals, etc.. 

 

 

My point is: everything you detail has always been the case. My dad was a frequent flyer in the 70's, 80's and 90's -- why is this so crazy now?

 

Storms are not a new thing: they were happening in the 70's. There's always been a need to re-fuel. Pilots have always needed sleep. There have always been engine problems. Why are things so different today in terms of meeting schedules?

 

Twice now DH has given up and driven the six hours from one state to our state. That's just crazy. He's talking about taking Amtrak from now on -- and I'm going to talk to him about American.

 

 

[Just Another Jen]

My point is: everything you detail has always been the case. My dad was a frequent flyer in the 70's, 80's and 90's -- why is this so crazy now?

 

Storms are not a new thing: they were happening in the 70's. There's always been a need to re-fuel. Pilots have always needed sleep. There have always been engine problems. Why are things so different today in terms of meeting schedules?

 

Twice now DH has given up and driven the six hours from one state to our state. That's just crazy. He's talking about taking Amtrak from now on -- and I'm going to talk to him about American.

 

 

 

 

It's the merger. United and Continental still haven't got all the bugs worked out. 

[Alicia64]

It's the merger. United and Continental still haven't got all the bugs worked out. 

 

Got it.

 

Thanks!

[Crimson Wife]

Pilots have always needed sleep.

 

Yes, but the FAA implemented a new, more stringent policy on this a few years back. So while the airlines SHOULD have been giving their pilots adequate rest time, in practice they may not always have been doing it 100% of the time.

[Alicia64]

Yes, but the FAA implemented a new, more stringent policy on this a few years back. So while the airlines SHOULD have been giving their pilots adequate rest time, in practice they may not always have been doing it 100% of the time.

 

But while they're factoring in better sleep time for the pilots (which I'm completely behind; I prefer my pilots awake vs. nodding off). . . they also need to factor in more realistic flight schedules for the customers. Why give pie-in-the-sky schedules -- that they can't possibly meet? What is the point of that?

 

The United-and-Continental-merger problem sounds the most likely. From here on out, I'm going to suggest American or Amtrak.

[TechWife]

My point is: everything you detail has always been the case. My dad was a frequent flyer in the 70's, 80's and 90's -- why is this so crazy now?

 

Storms are not a new thing: they were happening in the 70's. There's always been a need to re-fuel. Pilots have always needed sleep. There have always been engine problems. Why are things so different today in terms of meeting schedules?

 

Twice now DH has given up and driven the six hours from one state to our state. That's just crazy. He's talking about taking Amtrak from now on -- and I'm going to talk to him about American.

 

 

 

Several reasons: 

Air travel is much more popular now than it was then, which means the air is crowded! Schedules for departures and arrivals are really tight at the busy airports. This helps the airlines save money and stay in business.

Airplanes are usually full to capacity during peak hours, making it harder to reroute passengers for simple delays (rerouting used to much more common, now they only do it if you are missing a connection or if you are traveling on a true emergency, such as a medical emergency). 

Airline regulations for pilot/crew time have changed for the better. It means your pilot will not be over-tired when he is flying the plane. It also means that a flight might be delayed while a substitute crew is located and routed appropriately.

 

I'm sure there are more reasons, but these are the big ones. 

DH has a new job and he travels a lot more now. Every single time he's supposed to fly home his flight gets cancelled, re-routed, you name it.

 

 

 

I'm sorry. I know this is no fun.

 

I'm curious if it is just his flights home that have the problems, or the flights out as well?  I've found that the earlier in the day you fly, the less likely there are to be cascading problems.

[chiguirre]

I'm sorry. I know this is no fun.

 

I'm curious if it is just his flights home that have the problems, or the flights out as well?  I've found that the earlier in the day you fly, the less likely there are to be cascading problems.

That's true. Dh travels a lot, but it's all international on United and he hasn't had many delays except for weather (almost always on our end). I think it helps that he flies out of a big United hub on flights that go straight to their destination, lay over and fly back the next morning.

 

I'm sorry for the pita Alley, traveling is hard enough without unexpected delays.

[Alicia64]

I'm sorry. I know this is no fun.

 

I'm curious if it is just his flights home that have the problems, or the flights out as well?  I've found that the earlier in the day you fly, the less likely there are to be cascading problems.

 

Yes, he leaves early on Sundays purposely to avoid any air problems (and has rarely had any), but his work ends on Friday so he tries to get home Friday evening. Sadly, he should probably wait until Sun. a.m.

 

Alley

[Alicia64]

That's true. Dh travels a lot, but it's all international on United and he hasn't had many delays except for weather (almost always on our end). I think it helps that he flies out of a big United hub on flights that go straight to their destination, lay over and fly back the next morning.

 

I'm sorry for the pita Alley, traveling is hard enough without unexpected delays.

 

Thanks. A once in awhile problem would be no big deal, but every time is a real pain. And we're not a hub either.

 

Alley

[Just Another Jen]

Legal disclaimer,this is just my opinion:

 

 I can say that the merger has been horrible. The head of the airline completely botched it and should step down. The employees aren't happy, passengers aren't happy. It's just a mess. They merged because there was virtually no overlap between routes which was great- now we fly everywhere. But the merge of the two airlines has been rough. Two very different business plans and corporate cultures. They tried to cut it down the middle making everything on paper look fair. Instead of taking the actual best part of each airline and using their strengths to come together. 

[Alicia64]

Legal disclaimer,this is just my opinion:

 

 I can say that the merger has been horrible. The head of the airline completely botched it and should step down. The employees aren't happy, passengers aren't happy. It's just a mess. They merged because there was virtually no overlap between routes which was great- now we fly everywhere. But the merge of the two airlines has been rough. Two very different business plans and corporate cultures. They tried to cut it down the middle making everything on paper look fair. Instead of taking the actual best part of each airline and using their strengths to come together. 

 

Well, he and his team drove home -- six hours -- and he was in his own bed by 3 a.m.

 

Just bizarre.

 

It's funny, you get older and realize so few of us know what we're doing. Clearly the people who blended these companies didn't know what they were doing.

 

Apparently when DH and the many people around him were getting bumped from their flight last night -- they were sitting around telling United horror stories.

[QueenCat]

I do know it is "summer storm weather" season. Many flights are delayed and if a flight is grounded in one city, it can cause a snow ball effect at other cities waiting on the arrival of that plane. DH gets more overtime hours due to inclement in weather during spring and summer than winter hands down.

 

This is a huge part of the picture. Dh is former airlines (likely the same one as yours, knowing where you live). It's not just the storms where you are flying out of....... it's where the plane came from and where it is going to. And it is often the FAA, not the airline, that makes the decision to cancel flights for weather reasons. In other words, not in the airline's control. And if the FAA cancels the flight, the airline is not obligated to help you with meals, hotels, etc.

 And it is often the FAA, not the airline, that makes the decision to cancel flights for weather reasons. In other words, not in the airline's control. And if the FAA cancels the flight, the airline is not obligated to help you with meals, hotels, etc.

 

I don't think the FAA cancels flights.  They make rules which the airlines have to follow, and if the airlines don't have any slack in their systems, flights can end up canceled.

 

And while it rains equally on every airline, I think the way the different airlines handle problems can vary tremendously.  I understand that weather happens, and planes occasionally have problems that ground them.  However, if you take 200 people off of a cancelled flight, and force them all to queue up in front of one gate agent to handle rebooking, and it takes 10 minutes per passenger, well, that's a problem that is under the control of the airline.  Switching airlines may not change the number of problems he experiences, but if a weather delay on the new airline turns into a 30 minute total delay, instead of a cancelled flight and a drive home, I would think everyone would be happier.

[Alicia64]

I don't think the FAA cancels flights.  They make rules which the airlines have to follow, and if the airlines don't have any slack in their systems, flights can end up canceled.

 

And while it rains equally on every airline, I think the way the different airlines handle problems can vary tremendously.  I understand that weather happens, and planes occasionally have problems that ground them.  However, if you take 200 people off of a cancelled flight, and force them all to queue up in front of one gate agent to handle rebooking, and it takes 10 minutes per passenger, well, that's a problem that is under the control of the airline.

 

I was thinking the same thing, but it seems like "passing the buck" is the way airlines are supported these days. On the other side, I have heard that the FAA causes problems, but the airline needs to handle the reality of the FAA -- not just allow it to steamroll their paying customers. Other airlines are doing a better job of dealing w/ the FAA's stuff.

 

DH won't be using United again.

[Lynnae]

I have been flying a lot, and I stopped flying United, even though they're the main carrier at our small airport. All airlines have problems, but my experience is that United has more than the others. I have to take a trip in August that requires me to fly United, and I'm dreading it. I much prefer Alaska and American.

[QueenCat]

I don't think the FAA cancels flights.  They make rules which the airlines have to follow, and if the airlines don't have any slack in their systems, flights can end up canceled.

 

 

 

Air Traffic Control, which is a major part of the FAA, can delay a flight leaving and can cancel flights or close airports. This is typically due to weather issues.

[Joker]

My mom quit flying United when the last time she used them they canceled her layover flight to get here. She wasn't informed until she landed halfway to her destination and it took a ridiculous amount of time to get her here. It wasn't the first time they had canceled a flight of hers but it definitely was the most inconvenient. She hasn't had the same issue again since she's traveling on different airlines.

Air Traffic Control, which is a major part of the FAA, can delay a flight leaving and can cancel flights or close airports. This is typically due to weather issues.

 

 

ATC can close an airport (temporarily), but they can't cancel the flight.  That's on the airlines.

 

Again, Airlines differ tremendously in how they deal with these problems.  For example, some family friends chose to fly on a heavily discounted bargain airline that flies from our airport to a popular vacation city just twice a week.  Guess what happens when there's a mechnical problem with their plane?

[QueenCat]

ATC can close an airport (temporarily), but they can't cancel the flight.  That's on the airlines.

 

Again, Airlines differ tremendously in how they deal with these problems.  For example, some family friends chose to fly on a heavily discounted bargain airline that flies from our airport to a popular vacation city just twice a week.  Guess what happens when there's a mechnical problem with their plane?

 

I will double check with some ATC friends. I remember them discussing the stress of having to cancel/delay flights, and how crazy it could make things for that day, and the next day if several had to be canceled. Your link contradicts what I recall them telling me. It also doesn't make sense, despite being the official FAA site. I know that they are the ones who authorize the plane to leave the ground, and to land.

[Lisbeth]

People still fly? ;)

[Angie in VA]

That is awful. I hope he can use another airline that doesn't so that. Funny I read your post b/c just tonight I discovered this. I am pretty sure it is a true story.

Look for the video "United Breaks Guitars"

 

(I removed this link on 9-11-14)