Graduating class breakdown at Harvard

[albeto.]

You make it sound like these three things are lumped together and related in some way.

 

Or inherently bad.

[maize]

I'm guessing the pay differential between male and female graduates relates to career choices-- I see a lot more females are going into education and public service/ non-profit fields.

[Aelwydd]

Porn, atheism, pot.... sounds like very typical private college stats to me.

 

Looking at the website, I find it interesting that male graduates are making more money.  People always say that  the pay gay relates to women leaving the workforce for kids, but that is not the case here.

 

Look at the breakdown of careers that women and men go into.  More men go into finance and tech than women, who favored education and non-profits in much higher numbers than men.

 

 

IMO, psychologically, women are more about community than conquering.  In a capitalistic, hierarchal society, the biggest spoils tend to go to the victor, not the cooperator.

[albeto.]

  In a capitalistic, hierarchal society, the biggest spoils tend to go to the victor, not the cooperator.

 

On snap!

[FaithManor]

Look at the breakdown of careers that women and men go into.  More men go into finance and tech than women, who favored education and non-profits in much higher numbers than men.

 

 

IMO, psychologically, women are more about community than conquering.  In a capitalistic, hierarchal society, the biggest spoils tend to go to the victor, not the cooperator.

Very astute.

[Aelwydd]

Pot is legal in Colorado. Must be a state full of losers. 

 

Mmmmmmm.  Brownies.... :drool:

[mommymilkies]

People in favor of legalizing marijuana either use it on a regular basis themselves or have never been around someone who used it on a regular basis.  My first husband still uses it all the time and he is not pleasant to be around at all.  He never takes anything seriously and is acts like a juvenile when he is on it.  He is irresponsible and ... I could go on.  It has literally ruined his life and he doesn't even realize it.

Anecdote.  I am stone cold sober and 100% for legalization.  I do have friends who are regular users.  Your first husband sounds like a piece of work-it's not the weed, it's his personality. 

[LucyStoner]

He isn't the only person I have been around who smokes pot. They are all the same.... immature, irresponsible, and not fun to be around at all.

 

Chicken, egg. Egg, chicken? Who knows.

 

Was your ex ever responsible, successful and upstanding? I'm guessing not based on your posts about him. These other pothead people you know? Were any of them ever mature and responsible?

[Mimm]

People in favor of legalizing marijuana either use it on a regular basis themselves or have never been around someone who used it on a regular basis.  My first husband still uses it all the time and he is not pleasant to be around at all.  He never takes anything seriously and is acts like a juvenile when he is on it.  He is irresponsible and ... I could go on.  It has literally ruined his life and he doesn't even realize it.

 

I'm in favor of legalizing it and I've never used it or been around someone who has. So you're right about that. I don't care if people are unpleasant when they're on it, or some people can't control how much they smoke. Our country spends a stupid amount of money persecuting and controlling it. I'm in favor of gambling and drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco being legal too and those things have ruined many lives. I'm in favor of legalizing things I'm not in favor of doing. You seem to be assuming that if people only knew what people were like when they are smoking pot, they'd agree with you. But I could say something like...

 

People in favor of alcohol staying legal have obviously never been around someone who drinks regularly. My father is an alcoholic and it's destroyed his health, his marriage, his ability to work and his mind. It's ruined his life.

[poppy]

Maybe.  I can't think of anyone locally IRL who is a Harvard alum.  In this area if Harvard were used in a sentence, it wouldn't have a positive feel to it, so anyone associated with it would likely stay mum.  That's also probably why/how our youngsters catch the vibe.

 

Where I grew up (NY) it was fairly common for kids to apply to and attend Harvard though no one from my year did.  It's totally different here.  I thought "here" was the anomaly, but now I'm wondering if that's the case.

 

 

You might just be where I'm from. Whiskey Rebellion country. Anti-intellectual, highly class conscious, xenophobic.   It has its virtues, but reflexive disgust at institutions like Harvard isn't one of them.

 

[Crimson Wife]

I'm actually more interested in the statistic on atheists than I am in the one about those in favor of legalizing marijuana.  It seems to me that the latter is more in line with those in the general public who meet the same criteria (meaning, those who regularly use 2 or more times per week). 

 

The number of atheists is very much an outlier for the rest of the general population.

 

Harvard has a much higher percentage of Asians than the U.S. average, and a lot of Asians are non-religious. I'd say most of the Asians I know are non-religious but that's purely anecdotal. The Pew report shows that they are slightly more likely than average to be non-religious: http://www.pewforum.org/2012/07/19/asian-americans-a-mosaic-of-faiths-religious-affiliation/

[Crimson Wife]

  Working class= parents who have good jobs but aren't "rich" in that sense.

 

Not by a long shot. Working class = blue collar or maybe very low level white collar/civil service work. The doctor and his wife the RN aren't "working class". The janitor and his wife the receptionist are.

[Crimson Wife]

I was actually staggered by the percentage of legacies.  Much, much higher than admission books/counselors/ etc. would lead you to believe.

 

The Harvard recruiter told my high school guidance counselor back in the mid-90's that Harvard reserves 25% of its class for legacies. She told this to me as a way of providing reassurance that I had a good shot of getting in. I didn't like the implications of it, and it was one reason why I chose Stanford over Harvard. I got into Stanford on my own whereas it's unknown whether or not I would've gotten accepted to Harvard without being a legacy.

[saw]

The Harvard recruiter told my high school guidance counselor back in the mid-90's that Harvard reserves 25% of its class for legacies. She told this to me as a way of providing reassurance that I had a good shot of getting in. I didn't like the implications of it, and it was one reason why I chose Stanford over Harvard. I got into Stanford on my own whereas it's unknown whether or not I would've gotten accepted to Harvard without being a legacy.

 

It surprises me that they would have said that. I attended a panel discussion by three members of the Harvard Admissions Office a couple of weeks ago, in a room that was full of Harvard grads and their children, and not one member of the panel would admit to any quota. They did say that legacies have a 30 per cent (approximately) chance of getting in. A number of people in the room suggested that this high figure could also be due to the fact that alumni know what it takes to get in and will discourage their children from applying unless they have a good shot. I then attended a lecture given by an admissions counselor at a good prep, who was also unable to give a quota (and he had inside knowledge from a previous job).

 

[shawthorne44]

I find the stats totally unsurprising.  Well, that 21% are virgins, that is much higher than I would have thought.  

And, I thought the cheating numbers were low.  But, then it said 2014 numbers were half of the 2013 numbers.  

But, then I don't have a high opinion of Harvard.  

[poppy]

Not by a long shot. Working class = blue collar or maybe very low level white collar/civil service work. The doctor and his wife the RN aren't "working class". The janitor and his wife the receptionist are.

 

In theory but it's a bit grayer than that in practice. The plumber who makes $100K  annually is "blue collar". The entry level analyst at big corporate makes $45K that and owes $800/month in student loans is "middle class".

[katilac]

I wonder if the statistics hold true, or close to it, across all Ivy League schools.  That's quite a large number of self-proclaimed atheists compared to the general population of about 2%.

 

It's not that far off from the number of 'no religion' respondents in the general population, though, and it's atheist or agnostic. So I'd say that it's likely that the seniors in question are just not as reluctant to use the words agnostic and atheist.

 

People in favor of legalizing marijuana either use it on a regular basis themselves or have never been around someone who used it on a regular basis.   

 

Adding my voice to those saying, not so. 

 

Well, that 21% are virgins, that is much higher than I would have thought.  

 

 

I thought the virginity statistic seemed really high, too. 

[Crimson Wife]

It surprises me that they would have said that. I attended a panel discussion by three members of the Harvard Admissions Office a couple of weeks ago, in a room that was full of Harvard grads and their children, and not one member of the panel would admit to any quota.

 

 

It wasn't a public statement but a private remark to my guidance counselor. I wasn't privy to the conversation so all I have to go on is what the guidance counselor told me. It may not be an "official" quota but more of a "let's shoot for this number" target.

[dhudson]

May I say that as I am from CO, we have seen more problems that authorities were not prepared for after legalizing marijuana. Many of the problems have been from the sale of goodies baked with marijuana and kids not able to tell the difference. There have been a definite increase in kids hospitalized from eating goodies dosed with pot.

 

Make sure you think of the side consequences before you jump in and support legalized marijuana. I don't particularly enjoy prepping my kids to check labels and ingredients for pot .

[AimeeM]

91% of seniors who use marijuana twice a semester are in favor of legalizing it. 

 

 

 

Well, I would imagine those who do use it, ARE in favor of legalizing it, lol, but I'm sure someone else has already asked about this (if it's worded correctly).

 

[kiana]

May I say that as I am from CO, we have seen more problems that authorities were not prepared for after legalizing marijuana. Many of the problems have been from the sale of goodies baked with marijuana and kids not able to tell the difference. There have been a definite increase in kids hospitalized from eating goodies dosed with pot.

 

Make sure you think of the side consequences before you jump in and support legalized marijuana. I don't particularly enjoy prepping my kids to check labels and ingredients for pot .

 

Of course it will open up a whole new slew of issues, but why do you assume that people just haven't thought through the consequences?

 

I have been thinking about it for years. I do respect that other people can think through it and come to different conclusions than I have.

[maize]

Well, I would imagine those who do use it, ARE in favor of legalizing it, lol, but I'm sure someone else has already asked about this (if it's worded correctly).

 

 

No kidding! That statistic made me laugh. I didn't see any statistics on the percentage of students who used pot on a regular basis. I figure they had 11 students admit to regular pot use, and 10 of them were in favor of legalization. The 11th guy gets a thrill from doing something illegal...thoroughly pointless statistic no matter how I look at it.

[Diviya]

May I say that as I am from CO, we have seen more problems that authorities were not prepared for after legalizing marijuana. Many of the problems have been from the sale of goodies baked with marijuana and kids not able to tell the difference. There have been a definite increase in kids hospitalized from eating goodies dosed with pot.

 

Make sure you think of the side consequences before you jump in and support legalized marijuana. I don't particularly enjoy prepping my kids to check labels and ingredients for pot .

Huh. You got me curious so I looked it up. I'm still in favor of legalizing. :)

[IfIOnly]

I don't use it and I want it legalized. There are a lot of people out there in the same situation. 

 

I grew up with parents who where pot smokers.  I highly doubt most kids of users (unless they're users, too) want it legalized, but I could be wrong.  For one thing, pot is expensive even legalized, and when there's not a lot of money coming in this "habit" really effects families financially. I hate being around people under the influence of pot.  I've you've never been sober around people high, well, let's just say it's very eye opening.  I know my parents would have smoked way more if it was legalized. Shudder.  I am not picking on you but just had to get that off my chest. 

[IfIOnly]

May I say that as I am from CO, we have seen more problems that authorities were not prepared for after legalizing marijuana. Many of the problems have been from the sale of goodies baked with marijuana and kids not able to tell the difference. There have been a definite increase in kids hospitalized from eating goodies dosed with pot.

 

Make sure you think of the side consequences before you jump in and support legalized marijuana. I don't particularly enjoy prepping my kids to check labels and ingredients for pot .

 

 

Yeah, I def. feel that a lot of people shrug this statement off, but, seriously, mj use affects children negatively in many ways. Physically and emotionally.  I hope the people who were supposed to be responsible with the laced baked goods are prosecuted.  I also hope that laws are made that parents must not be high when taking care of children even their own.  At least kids know that they have power to report if there parents use is hurting them.

[LucyStoner]

I grew up with parents who where pot smokers. I highly doubt most kids of users (unless they're users, too) want it legalized, but I could be wrong. For one thing, pot is expensive even legalized, and when there's not a lot of money coming in this "habit" really effects families financially. I hate being around people under the influence of pot. I've you've never been sober around people high, well, let's just say it's very eye opening. I know my parents would have smoked way more if it was legalized. Shudder. I am not picking on you but just had to get that off my chest.

The same can be said of both alcohol and cigarettes.

[kiana]

Yeah, I def. feel that a lot of people shrug this statement off, but, seriously, mj use affects children negatively in many ways. Physically and emotionally.  I hope the people who were supposed to be responsible with the laced baked goods are prosecuted.  I also hope that laws are made that parents must not be high when taking care of children even their own.  At least kids know that they have power to report if there parents use is hurting them.

 

Parents who are so high they're neglecting their kids, or who are driving kids while high, should absolutely be in trouble, just like parents who drive their kids while drunk, or leave their kids in the car to go gambling. I don't think we need separate new laws, though -- if they're neglectful, we already have laws on the books, and if they're not neglectful, why are we interfering? 

[IfIOnly]

The same can be said of both alcohol and cigarettes.

 

 

A kid stealing a cigarette or sneaking a beer is not in anyway equal to a kid eating a laced baked good.  On many levels.  

[kiana]

A kid stealing a cigarette or sneaking a beer is not in anyway equal to a kid eating a laced baked good.  On many levels.  

 

Not sure if you noticed, but she quoted your paragraph on the negative financial effects on families, not the one about the laced baked goods. I would definitely agree with her that tobacco and alcohol also have negative financial effects on families.

 

With respect to your latest, I will give you the cigarette -- the effects are longer-term -- but how is a child who is intoxicated due to being slipped alcohol materially better/safer than one who's in an altered state of mind due to being slipped mind-altering substances in baked goods? Both should be illegal and in both cases the providers should be prosecuted for procuring for minors.

[LucyStoner]

A kid stealing a cigarette or sneaking a beer is not in anyway equal to a kid eating a laced baked good. On many levels.

The post of yours I responded to was about the financial impact, not about kids using. Your argument is shifting around a bit. The financial drain to families from parents using cigarette and liquor is not insubstantial when the parent chooses the substance over their responsibilities.

 

WRT the issue of young people using and the safety compared to legal vices, young drinkers can die of alcohol poisoning a lot more easily than unadulterated marijuana. No child should have access to any of if but marijuana isn't somehow radically more dangerous than legal vices like tobacco and alcohol.

[IfIOnly]

You know, I'm going to step away from this discussion.  I'm literally shaking here.  It's a very emotional topic for me and I'm not able to think straight at this moment.  My parents were never neglectful legally.  But having your parents high in your presence even though you're fed and clothed and they love you was scary for me.  It didn't feel safe.  I didn't feel protected.  Things felt out of order and unsure.  I could say so much more. 

[AimeeM]

Not sure if you noticed, but she quoted your paragraph on the negative financial effects on families, not the one about the laced baked goods. I would definitely agree with her that tobacco and alcohol also have negative financial effects on families.

 

With respect to your latest, I will give you the cigarette -- the effects are longer-term -- but how is a child who is intoxicated due to being slipped alcohol materially better/safer than one who's in an altered state of mind due to being slipped mind-altering substances in baked goods? Both should be illegal and in both cases the providers should be prosecuted for procuring for minors.

 

One beer rarely, if ever, intoxicates a child over, I would say, 80 lbs (because I was barely 90 at legal drinking age and it certainly did not give me a buzz).

A minimal amount of pot would intoxicate me NOW, at 115 lbs. I can't imagine how it would affect my 12 year old daughter, or my 5 year old son.

[Leav97]

Porn, atheism, pot.... sounds like very typical private college stats to me.

 

Looking at the website, I find it interesting that male graduates are making more money.  People always say that  the pay gay relates to women leaving the workforce for kids, but that is not the case here.

 

And they say it's do to women working less hours and choosing less stress and ...

 

Most of which has been kind of proven wrong.  Women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes.  But, that # does include women that work part time and has other factors (rates of degrees,...).  If you look at specific career fields and only compare apples to apples the difference is still their but it isn't 23 cents.

 

I work in IT it has one of the narrowest gaps.  Statistically being female gives me a 10% pay cut compared to my male coworkers.  How many men would be willing to take a 10% pay cut.

[LucyStoner]

You know, I'm going to step away from this discussion. I'm literally shaking here. It's a very emotional topic for me and I'm not able to think straight at this moment. My parents were never neglectful legally. But having your parents high in your presence even though you're fed and clothed and they love you was scary for me. It didn't feel safe. I didn't feel protected. Things felt out of order and unsure. I could say so much more.

First off ((hugs)). It honestly sounds to me like you were neglected- caring for kids while intoxicated can certainly rise to the level of neglect. And chances are good that it was quite illegal for your parents to be using pot. You have every reason to be upset about something that clearly hurt you.

 

Children with addicts as parents don't feel protected, because we weren't being protected. My father fell off the wagon and into episodes with alcohol and even though it wasn't all the time, it left a mark. My niece and nephew have been horribly neglected and more by their father. That neglect though is a product of his choices and his illness/addiction. The money he spent on alcohol, gambling, cigarettes and pot while they went without basic needs met makes me very angry indeed. I just don't see what something being legal or not has to do with him being an addict and an abuser.

 

If you can't discuss the issue in a message board setting, that's a good sign that you would really benefit from some help coming to terms with your past and your relationship with your parents. You are absolutely right that children shouldn't have to be around parents who are using. It's not fair, or right.

 

Aside from light and fairly rare drinking, I am a teetotaler. I was totally straight edge as a teen and young adult. I've never ever thought about using drugs or tobacco. It's not part of who I am, in large part because I saw what all three (alcohol, drugs and tobacco) did to my loved ones. I'd never get behind outlawing them though because of the costs and consequences. We spend way too much money locking people up for non-violent drug offenses and the rules about what is legal and what is not make no sense whatsoever at all.

[kiana]

One beer rarely, if ever, intoxicates a child over, I would say, 80 lbs (because I was barely 90 at legal drinking age and it certainly did not give me a buzz).

A minimal amount of pot would intoxicate me NOW, at 115 lbs. I can't imagine how it would affect my 12 year old daughter, or my 5 year old son.

 

I guess if you lace it with enough to be that intoxicating, it would be more like a kid sneaking a shot of hard liquor. It is also possible to lace it with smaller amounts, of course.

 

But I will reiterate, that I see no real difference between giving a kid enough pot to be intoxicated and enough alcohol to be intoxicated. As a matter of fact, I don't see a real difference between giving them pot at all and alcohol at all, barring the potential exception of communion wine. That sort of stuff needs to stay out of the hands of kids. Arguing that alcohol is somehow more benign is dodging the issue entirely.

[Jenny in Florida]

.  For one thing, pot is expensive even legalized, and when there's not a lot of money coming in this "habit" really effects families financially. I hate being around people under the influence of pot.  I've you've never been sober around people high, well, let's just say it's very eye opening. 

 

That's pretty much how I feel about alcohol. However, we tried to make that illegal, and it didn't work out too well. The mere fact that I don't approve of something does not mean I think it should be illegal.

[kroe1]

Working in an ER for over 20 years, I have seen the worst of the worst. But ask any of us long time ER people and we will tell you that certain drugs can be spotted a mile away.

 

The crystal methamphetamine users and former users are anxious, logic lost, scratchers. The cocaine users are loud, twitching, tachycardics. The marijuana users are slow talking, brain cell lost, turtles. Alcoholics are loud, demanding, and shallow. Only the long term opiate users can fool one, until they open their mouths and start whining about one sob story after another.

 

Obviously these are mass generalizations, but we ER workers all share the same wink when a longtime user comes in. (This is not intended to get you guys one after the other to relay the exceptions you know.). It is what it is. There are enough of these characteristics shared by long term users that we can spot them on arrival to the ER.

 

In regards to the marijuana use, I have to agree with Luanne. I have not read the posts after, so someone may have already mentioned this one:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=persistent%20cannabis%20users%20and%20meier

[unsinkable]

Working in an ER for over 20 years, I have seen the worst of the worst. But ask any of us long time ER people and we will tell you that certain drugs can be spotted a mile away.

 

The crystal methamphetamine users and former users are anxious, logic lost, scratchers. The cocaine users are loud, twitching, tachycardics. The marijuana users are slow talking, brain cell lost, turtles. Alcoholics are loud, demanding, and shallow. Only the long term opiate users can fool one, until they open their mouths and start whining about one sob story after another.

 

Obviously these are mass generalizations, but we ER workers all share the same wink when a longtime user comes in. (This is not intended to get you guys one after the other to relay the exceptions you know.). It is what it is. There are enough of these characteristics shared by long term users that we can spot them on arrival to the ER.

 

In regards to the marijuana use, I have to agree with Luanne. I have not read the posts after, so someone may have already mentioned this one:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=persistent%20cannabis%20users%20and%20meier

I love your line in parenthesis! But now you know that is exactly what is going to happen! :lol:

 

"When I used meth, I never scratched myself! Not even once! Maybe, just maybe, you could stop thinking of yourself and imagine a meth user who DOESN'T scratch!"

 

OR

 

"I scratch myself all the time! I've never done meth! It's people like you, with your judgingness, who make me never wonder what is wrong with the world. I suppose you're going to call CPS when I'm scratching myself in front of my kids."

 

OR

 

"My cousin does meth. And he is a Harvard graduate, Fortune 500 CFO who volunteers in Haiti. You'd NEVER know he does meth. So you should really rethink your dangerous generalizations. They contribute to the anti-drug culture that harms all of us."

[Crimson Wife]

And they say it's do to women working less hours and choosing less stress and ...

 

Most of which has been kind of proven wrong.  Women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes.  But, that # does include women that work part time and has other factors (rates of degrees,...).  If you look at specific career fields and only compare apples to apples the difference is still their but it isn't 23 cents.

 

I work in IT it has one of the narrowest gaps.  Statistically being female gives me a 10% pay cut compared to my male coworkers.  How many men would be willing to take a 10% pay cut.

 

My DH has had a number of different jobs in the financial services industry. There is a real tradeoff between number of hours expected and the pay offered. The jobs that are the most demanding in terms of hours required generally offer better pay, but attract fewer women. Investment banking required 80-100+ hour weeks and paid very well; it was almost exclusively male. Investor relations for a corporation offered a much better work-life balance at a lower pay; it was the most even he's ever seen in terms of gender balance. The other jobs have been in between in terms of hours, pay, and skewing male. Both -banking and corporate investor relations would fall under the broad category of "finance". If more men choose high pay/high stress jobs the former and more women choose lower pay/lower stress jobs like the latter, it could help explain a gender pay gap.

[Leav97]

My DH has had a number of different jobs in the financial services industry. There is a real tradeoff between number of hours expected and the pay offered. The jobs that are the most demanding in terms of hours required generally offer better pay, but attract fewer women. Investment banking required 80-100+ hour weeks and paid very well; it was almost exclusively male. Investor relations for a corporation offered a much better work-life balance at a lower pay; it was the most even he's ever seen in terms of gender balance. The other jobs have been in between in terms of hours, pay, and skewing male. Both -banking and corporate investor relations would fall under the broad category of "finance". If more men choose high pay/high stress jobs the former and more women choose lower pay/lower stress jobs like the latter, it could help explain a gender pay gap.

 

The real question is for men and women working the same job with the same experience, what's the pay gap.  In IT it's 7-12 %.  For the investment bankers where both the men and women are working 80-100+ hour weeks, what's the pay gap?  I don't know investment banking for all I know it's 100% commission based.

[poppy]

The real question is for men and women working the same job with the same experience, what's the pay gap.  In IT it's 7-12 %.  For the investment bankers where both the men and women are working 80-100+ hour weeks, what's the pay gap?  I don't know investment banking for all I know it's 100% commission based.

 

Not enough data since the few women in that business really are outliers.  It's like STEM jobs 30 years ago.