At my wits end

[Plateau Mama]

And it's not even 9am. Sigh.

 

My middle child is very black and white. There is no grey. Add to that if he feels a rule is stupid he just won't follow it and feign "I forgot" or "I misunderstood". He's also big of fairness.

 

Yesterday he discovered his little brother had taken his Easter eggs. I knew about it and didn't see the harm since he can't eat the candy. Little brother wasn't being mean, just thought it would be funny. Yesterday he discovered the eggs were missing and was furious. When we realized he had a purpose for the candy he couldn't eat (using it for a prize at school), DH said he'd talk to the little one and we'd get him a bag of candy to replace it. You'd think that would be enough. Nope. 10:30 last night he gets up to complain to DH about it again. Again this morning we spent 30 minutes on this topic.

 

Which then leads to how I'm unfair and others can break rules and he's not allowed to. Today the rule was be negative. "Sister can be negative All.The.Time. And never gets in trouble. I say ONE thing and you are mad."

 

His sister is rarely negative, never to another person only about homework or such. He on the other hand is my Eeyore. Always finds the negative. I remember one day we went to the zoo he had a great day. Was talking about how great it was. Then he fell and skinned his knee. From that moment forward when someone asked about his day all he could talk about was how horrible it was. He fell and scraped his knee blah, blah. 30 second incident ruined his entire day. This is how everything is. I've never made a meal that he didn't find something wrong with. Everything we do for him is wrong. Everything.

 

Part of this is his personality and part is an effort to control. I know this. Every night I tell myself I'm not getting into it with him tomorrow and every day he either pushes me to fight with him or phushes me to tears. I'm so tired of it but I have no idea how to "fix" it.

[happi duck]

((Hugs))

[mom2bee]

I'm sorry that is very frustrating. I have a younger brother who is exactly like that. We have to just ignore him or banish him from our presence when he gets like that, we have yet to find a more....eloquent solution to how to handle him. I know that isn't helpful but I know how frustrating it can be.

 

:grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Why was something given to him that he couldn't have anyway?  And once it is given to him, of course he's going to be mad if someone steals it.  I guess I see his point.  

 

However, some of what you typed made me wonder if he is on the spectrum.  

[bettyandbob]

Why was something given to him that he couldn't have anyway?  And once it is given to him, of course he's going to be mad if someone steals it.  I guess I see his point.  

 

 

 

I would not tolerate siblings deliberately taking something from another sibling. The Easter eggs were his to decide what he wanted to do with him. It's not up to a sibling to decide I can take them because he's not eating them. And it's definitely not cool for a parent to condone that behavior.

[Plateau Mama]

Why was something given to him that he couldn't have anyway? And once it is given to him, of course he's going to be mad if someone steals it. I guess I see his point.

 

However, some of what you typed made me wonder if he is on the spectrum.

It was in the Easter Eggs we did for the family hunt. Before they hunted I told him and his sister that they couldn't eat the candy in the eggs. They were each given a Costco bag of Candy that they could eat. I didn't have the energy to do three different types of candy, making sure each child got the exact same amount of eggs.

 

As for the spectrum. Yes, I've wondered that as well, but my pediatrician assures me he's not.

 

Also he's not allowed to take food upstairs. When he took them up I asked him to bring them down. This is an instance where he thinks the rule is stupid so he just ignored it.

[Farrar]

If the younger brother just took it as a joke (I wouldn't necessarily have intervened on that one either), then why can't it be returned?  If he ate it, that wouldn't have been okay with me.

 

Regardless, he's perseverating.  You solved the problem (new candy).  He needs to get past it.  I would say you need to give him some strategies to do that and cut off conversation.

 

Hugs.  That does sound super frustrating. 

[Plateau Mama]

If the younger brother just took it as a joke (I wouldn't necessarily have intervened on that one either), then why can't it be returned? If he ate it, that wouldn't have been okay with me.

 

Regardless, he's perseverating. You solved the problem (new candy). He needs to get past it. I would say you need to give him some strategies to do that and cut off conversation.

 

Hugs. That does sound super frustrating.

 

I won't go into why the candy can't be given back. It has to do with another one of his "issues". But we have tried and tried to teach him how to let go of things and he just can't/won't. Out of the blue will bring things up from years ago. No issue is ever closed with him.

[Myeightkiddies]

Yesterday he discovered his little brother had taken his Easter eggs. I knew about it and didn't see the harm since he can't eat the candy. Little brother wasn't being mean, just thought it would be funny. Yesterday he discovered the eggs were missing and was furious. 

 

Knowing how he is, it was "mean" to take something.  Remember that something is only funny if both parties think it is.  If it will upset the other party, it isn't funny at all.  It is mean.

 

It was in the Easter Eggs we did for the family hunt. Before they hunted I told him and his sister that they couldn't eat the candy in the eggs. They were each given a Costco bag of Candy that they could eat. I didn't have the energy to do three different types of candy, making sure each child got the exact same amount of eggs.

 

 

If we had a hunt and didn't want the kids to eat the candy, I would have removed the candy from the eggs and told them that they may insert their own candy instead (or do it for them if they are young).  I wouldn't have left candy in the eggs telling them that they can't eat it.  Why have candy just sit there? It can get old, melted, or attract bugs.  I'm not judging how you handled things; I'm just trying to put myself in the position and determine what I would have done.

 

What did little brother do with the eggs and why didn't he return them?

 

If he is getting scolded for asking for a replacement yet the younger sibling received no reprimand for taking the eggs in the first place, I do see his point of things being "unfair".  Today he is mad at his sister, but it really may be an accumulation of several events.  

 

I'm sorry that your day is going poorly.  I'm sure it is very trying.  

[bettyandbob]

did you reprimand the younger brother?

[Scook86]

When he starts up the negativity, try telling him that if he's going to keep being negative then he will have to spend that time in his room until he is over it. And then enforce it. If he starts up again, just send him to his room and tell him he's welcome to come back when he's done being negative. I'm sure after a few times of being sent away he will start to get the message.

 

Also, maybe try practicing some "positivity/thankfulness" exercises with him. Like at dinner, have him think about a few things that went right about his day, instead of focusing on what went wrong. Everyone in the family can join in.

 

I'm just thinking that he might need a shift in his perspective. If you have him actively focusing on the positives, then hopefully it will train him to think differently.

[Myeightkiddies]

I won't go into why the candy can't be given back. It has to do with another one of his "issues". But we have tried and tried to teach him how to let go of things and he just can't/won't. Out of the blue will bring things up from years ago. No issue is ever closed with him.

 

One of my daughters is similar.  She would definitely not want it back but would want a replacement.  I would have him evaluated.  It sounds to me, in my unprofessional opinion, that he is on the spectrum.  If your doctor doesn't think so or assumes not, take him somewhere else.

[Farrar]

Or, just because he's not on the spectrum, doesn't mean that he might not benefit from some solid cognitive behavioral therapy strategies.

 

I haven't used this book or this one, but we have found some of the others in the series useful.

[Plateau Mama]

Knowing how he is, it was "mean" to take something.  Remember that something is only funny if both parties think it is.  If it will upset the other party, it isn't funny at all.  It is mean.

 

 

 

If we had a hunt and didn't want the kids to eat the candy, I would have removed the candy from the eggs and told them that they may insert their own candy instead (or do it for them if they are young).  I wouldn't have left candy in the eggs telling them that they can't eat it.  Why have candy just sit there? It can get old, melted, or attract bugs.  I'm not judging how you handled things; I'm just trying to put myself in the position and determine what I would have done.

 

What did little brother do with the eggs and why didn't he return them?

 

If he is getting scolded for asking for a replacement yet the younger sibling received no reprimand for taking the eggs in the first place, I do see his point of things being "unfair".  Today he is mad at his sister, but it really may be an accumulation of several events.  

 

I'm sorry that your day is going poorly.  I'm sure it is very trying.

 

 

The reason I let him do it was because I figured older child would forget about them. I typically remove all candy/eggs after two weeks or so. (Same for Halloween). I figured little guy would get a chuckle and that would be the end.

 

I agree on not having candy just sit there. That is why I have a no food rule upstairs. He knows this and ignored me when he was supposed to bring it down. I didn't have the energy to "force" the issue at the time.

 

He is 12' his sister is 13. They are (IMO) old enough to understand that the egg hunt is for their 6 yo brother and that the candy goes to him BC they got their own. I'm not going to manually replace candy after the fact. They aren't 4.

 

 

did you reprimand the younger brother?

I didn't reprimand him. He wasn't trying to be mean. I punish based on the intent of the infraction. We did talk about it upsetting brother and he will apologize (again).  

When he starts up the negativity, try telling him that if he's going to keep being negative then he will have to spend that time in his room until he is over it. And then enforce it. If he starts up again, just send him to his room and tell him he's welcome to come back when he's done being negative. I'm sure after a few times of being sent away he will start to get the message.

Also, maybe try practicing some "positivity/thankfulness" exercises with him. Like at dinner, have him think about a few things that went right about his day, instead of focusing on what went wrong. Everyone in the family can join in.

I'm just thinking that he might need a shift in his perspective. If you have him actively focusing on the positives, then hopefully it will train him to think differently.

 I have done both of these. Sending him to his room when he is negative caused so much tension because he pulls the "i don't understand what I did, I can't even talk or I get in trouble argument" I've tried making him tell me a positive for every negative, tell me two good things from today etc.

One of my daughters is similar.  She would definitely not want it back but would want a replacement.  I would have him evaluated.  It sounds to me, in my unprofessional opinion, that he is on the spectrum.  If your doctor doesn't think so or assumes not, take him somewhere else.

My dr has a lot of experience with the spectrum. She is the only Ped in the area I trust, I have no clue where else I'd go?

[Plateau Mama]

Or, just because he's not on the spectrum, doesn't mean that he might not benefit from some solid cognitive behavioral therapy strategies.

 

I haven't used this book or this one, but we have found some of the others in the series useful.

I will have to look at those books. Thanks.

 

I am looking for a behavioral therapist as we speak. I tried a regular therapist and she only made things worse. After 3 sessions I was ready to sent him to military school. And I am not kidding.

 

I'm not sure I can get my husband on board with a behavioral therapist after this last experience.

[Plink]

The reason I let him do it was because I figured older child would forget about them. I typically remove all candy/eggs after two weeks or so. (Same for Halloween). I figured little guy would get a chuckle and that would be the end.

I agree on not having candy just sit there. That is why I have a no food rule upstairs. He knows this and ignored me when he was supposed to bring it down. I didn't have the energy to "force" the issue at the time.

He is 12' his sister is 13. They are (IMO) old enough to understand that the egg hunt is for their 6 yo brother and that the candy goes to him BC they got their own. I'm not going to manually replace candy after the fact. They aren't 4.

I didn't reprimand him. He wasn't trying to be mean. I punish based on the intent of the infraction. We did talk about it upsetting brother and he will apologize (again). I have done both of these. Sending him to his room when he is negative caused so much tension because he pulls the "i don't understand what I did, I can't even talk or I get in trouble argument" I've tried making him tell me a positive for every negative, tell me two good things from today etc. My dr has a lot of experience with the spectrum. She is the only Ped in the area I trust, I have no clue where else I'd go?

Wait. You hid candy that two of your three children weren't able to eat, and thought that a 12 and 13 year old should be okay with that. Then, you didn't correct your boy who took candy upstairs becuase you were tired. Then, you thought it was okay for the youngest to steal because he thought theft was funny. Then you got upset when your boy finally cracked from the unfairness of it all?

 

I'm on the kid's side. Your rules and enforcement seem rather arbitrary.

 

ETA: For the record, I have an Autistic child, so I get emotional/challenging children. Really, I do. This situation, however, seems to be a perfect storm on all fronts. I hope you are able to find a group of professionals that can help your family.

[Plateau Mama]

Wait. You hid candy that two of your three children weren't able to eat, and thought that a 12 and 13 year old should be okay with that. Then, you didn't correct your boy who took candy upstairs becuase you were tired. Then, you thought it was okay for the youngest to steal because he thought theft was funny. Then you got upset when your boy finally cracked from the unfairness of it all?

 

I'm on the kid's side. Your rules and enforcement seem rather arbitrary.

I'm glad to see everyone today thinks I'm a bad parent today.

 

Did you not see that I gave them each a Costco bag of their favorite candy (among other things). In the end those two got more candy than the other one. No one is upset that candy they couldn't have was in the eggs. They were all ok with getting their own bags of candy. That is not the issue here.

 

I realize I shouldn't have let the 6 yo take the eggs. Bad parent. BUT the issue is that we've all apologized, multiple times, offered him a bag of candy to replace it (vs the 5-6 pieces he had), and he is still harping on it.

[Plateau Mama]

Bad Mom, checking out. I need to get son whom I treat so horribly a tie for school tomorrow and a bag of candy. Then go to two different stores to get him food, oh wait, I did that yesterday.

 

Anyway, while I'm driving around town doing these things I'll make up for it by planning ways I can be inconsistent and unfair to him, because, you know, I just love the non-stop fighting in my house.

[bettyandbob]

I realize I shouldn't have let the 6 yo take the eggs. Bad parent. BUT the issue is that we've all apologized, multiple times, offered him a bag of candy to replace it (vs the 5-6 pieces he had), and he is still harping on it.

 

Whether or not he's harping on it is because it sounds like 6 yo gets away with stuff because "he didn't intend to ..."

 

While you say a 12 yo should be able to behave a certain or understand something, this is your 12 yo. I would think you would be able to start predicting what you can cannot do around you 12 yo based on years of experience with him. The events might not have happened had you structured things a little differently.

 

I have a quirky kid whose 19. We adjusted our activities so there were no blow ups, ruining everyone's fun. If I were in the position of packing Easter eggs, I would have put candy that everyone could eat and yes we have a myriad of issues that necessitated at points finding peanut free, dye free, soy free, gluten free, nut free. It was still candy and no one had trouble comparing eggs. Small adjustments in my behavior made things easier, rather than expecting behavior that might work for the average ---yo. I knew my kid wasn't average. I wasn't going expect average behavior or maturity when I knew it wasn't there.

 

I'm sorry if you feel like you are being dumped on. It's frustrating having a quirky kid--with or without a diagnosis. You will save yourself some pain by predicting behavior up front. Maybe it seems like more work, but it's not because later he's not harping on something. I also spent a lot of time preparing quirky kid up front about certain activities and expectations, to reduce after arguments. It's tiring, but it reduced head butting with parents which is more tiring.

[MollyAnn]

A lot of the PP are missing the point. The 6yo took the eggs, the 13yo was angry, the 6yo has apologized, the 13yo does not want the candy back but will be given new candy, the situation is now at an end and the matter settled but the 13yo will not let it go. It is quite exhausting, especially when this is just the latest instance and it is a very common.

 

The 6yo taking the eggs as a joke is still a joke even though the 13yo didn't find it funny. There was no malice intended, it was a 6yo trying to get a rise out of his older brother.

 

My 12yo is similar to your 13yo. Negative, always depressed or upset about something. We visited a new BS troop the other day, he was having such a great time that he didn't want to leave early to visit the other troop I had on the list. So we stayed and in the last 10min one boy made DS mad and that was the end of him liking that particular troop. When asked how the visit went, the boy making him mad was all DS talks about. Right now he is incredibly upset and life is truly unfair because he is 12 and hasn't recieved his admittance to Camp Half-Blood. Nothing is fair, I make him do everything, I don't make anyone else do anything (Nevermind they all have a list of tasks) everyone is out to get him. When I try to talk to him about anything he has done he can not believe I have the nerve to find fault with him yet again. IT IS EXHAUSTING. And yes, when I am tired I get lax on rules and consistency.

[happi duck]

 

A lot of the PP are missing the point.

I agree!!

[grantmeawish]

I have a son like yours too. He is 9. He is awesome unless something is not going his way which happens a lot since there are five people in this family. He doesn't like to take responsibility for his actions because it's never his fault. He critiques everything. He is definetly quirky but I have never considered him being on the spectrum. You are not a bad mom! I don't think your post is even about Easter eggs but about dealing with constant fighting. I know how it is!! You think something is no big deal but ds DOES and it is all over after that. We talk constantly about letting things "roll off your back" and life will be easier if you learn to let go of everything having to be fair. Sometimes when he is especially negative I have him tell me five things he can be thankful for. All these help but certainy are not "cures". This is part of his personality and he is going to have to learn to control himself or have a hard life. We tend to send him to his room when he has he meltdowns so we don't have to deal with it. Hope things get better for you!

[bettyandbob]

I don't think I missed the point. The OP knows her 12 yo doesn't think or respond to his environment like other 12 yos. She is frustrated, and kids like this are frustrating, but she needs not expect him to act like any other 12 yo.

 

She can look at behavior therapy as suggested and look at other possibilities to help him mature. However, she should not continue to expect whatever she defines as "12 yo behavior" from him when she won't get it. That will just continue to frustrate her and her ds. He needs extra training to learning how to respond appropriately and he may never have the same reactions that his siblings have.

[Eagle]

I have a child that is very focused on fairness and justice and I agree with MollyAnn that it can be exhausting. We own the "grumble" book that Farrar linked above. We haven't started it yet because we are working through another of the books in the series right now. They are excellent books, so I can second the recommendation.

 

In this particular instance I can see why he can't get past it. It isn't that you are a bad parent, it's that you don't see the situation through his eyes. There are several things that are unfair towards your older ds in this example. He doesn't just need the new candy, he wants his feelings acknowledged that he was wronged. It is different than an apology. At the moment he probably feels that the family doesn't understand why he is upset. It is frustrating to not be understood.

[Upward Journey]

A lot of the PP are missing the point. The 6yo took the eggs, the 13yo was angry, the 6yo has apologized, the 13yo does not want the candy back but will be given new candy, the situation is now at an end and the matter settled but the 13yo will not let it go. It is quite exhausting, especially when this is just the latest instance and it is a very common.

 

The 6yo taking the eggs as a joke is still a joke even though the 13yo didn't find it funny. There was no malice intended, it was a 6yo trying to get a rise out of his older brother.

 

My 12yo is similar to your 13yo. Negative, always depressed or upset about something. We visited a new BS troop the other day, he was having such a great time that he didn't want to leave early to visit the other troop I had on the list. So we stayed and in the last 10min one boy made DS mad and that was the end of him liking that particular troop. When asked how the visit went, the boy making him mad was all DS talks about. Right now he is incredibly upset and life is truly unfair because he is 12 and hasn't recieved his admittance to Camp Half-Blood. Nothing is fair, I make him do everything, I don't make anyone else do anything (Nevermind they all have a list of tasks) everyone is out to get him. When I try to talk to him about anything he has done he can not believe I have the nerve to find fault with him yet again. IT IS EXHAUSTING. And yes, when I am tired I get lax on rules and consistency.

 

It doesn't matter at.all. if something is a joke if it's upsetting to the other person involved.  It matters not one whit that malice wasn't intended.  If you play a joke that is upsetting to another, then it's mean.  period.

 

Same with apologizing for a wrong.  Just because you apologize doesn't make everything better, it doesn't make the hurt caused go away and it doesn't make the offense disappear.

[Upward Journey]

I have a child that is very focused on fairness and justice and I agree with MollyAnn that it can be exhausting. We own the "grumble" book that Farrar linked above. We haven't started it yet because we are working through another of the books in the series right now. They are excellent books, so I can second the recommendation.

 

In this particular instance I can see why he can't get past it. It isn't that you are a bad parent, it's that you don't see the situation through his eyes. There are several things that are unfair towards your older ds in this example. He doesn't just need the new candy, he wants his feelings acknowledged that he was wronged. It is different than an apology. At the moment he probably feels that the family doesn't understand why he is upset. It is frustrating to not be understood.

 

This.  Exactly this.

[Plateau Mama]

Whether or not he's harping on it is because it sounds like 6 yo gets away with stuff because "he didn't intend to ..."

.

No one is getting away with stuff. I discipline based on intent. We're they trying to be mean or hurt someone? If do they get disciplined. Did they accidentally hurt someone? Then a sincere sorry is all I expect. For all my kids.

[Farrar]

No one is getting away with stuff. I discipline based on intent. We're they trying to be mean or hurt someone? If do they get disciplined. Did they accidentally hurt someone? Then a sincere sorry is all I expect. For all my kids.

In our house, we talk about how some things are accidents and some things are accidents waiting to happen. I don't punish ever when someone knocks over a glass by accident. But when someone knocks over a glass while unthinkingly whipping a light saber around the room, that's not an accident, even though the intention wasn't to break a glass. While it's really different, I think what your 6 yo did is a little closer to the latter example. Good foresight would have told him trouble could easily come from those actions.

 

I definitely don't think you're a bad mom. It sounds like you're a worn down mom with a kid who really needs some new tools and therapy to help him. But when kids have issues, even though it's unfair to us, there's a reason that a lot of the time, parents are the ones who have to get the therapy. To change their behavior, we have to change the set up for them and help make a better path.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Didn't miss the point.  I have a son who perseverates (the 50 cent word for what the OP is describing).  Telling him to just stop isn't going to work because he can't just stop.  Sending him to his room would end up with holes in the wall, esp. as he's gotten older.  Learning to understand what sets him off and how to teach him to avoid and deal with triggers does help.  We are currently getting a neuro-psych evaluation from a neuro-psychologist (not a pediatrician) in order to get even more insight and tools to help him to deal with this.  

[Jan in SC]

I think it's very easy to assume that a 12 year old boy will be okay with a bag of candy in exchange for the eggs. It's a perfectly reasonable thought. However, you don't have a perfectly reasonable child. It sounds like you need to determine why. Is he immature? Is it a personality issue? Is he on the spectrum?

 

I would have some testing done to determine why. It is going to be exhausting trying to change a child that is incapable of change. You have to learn to think like him. Do I think what happened was fair? It doesn't matter. I can have the best intentions, but if my child can't function in my world, I have to modify my world.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

So, do you let the kids go trick or treating, give them different candy, but tell them the candy they walked for and collected they can't have but just leave it in their bag and then take it away after two weeks? What is the point of that?

[bettyandbob]

So, do you let the kids go trick or treating, give them different candy, but tell them the candy they walked for and collected they can't have but just leave it in their bag and then take it away after two weeks? What is the point of that?

 

When we were in the midst of major food issues with dc who still did Halloween and egg hunts, I switched out the candy right after the event. I can't imagine letting a kid stare at candy he can't eat for a couple weeks.

[Plateau Mama]

So, do you let the kids go trick or treating, give them different candy, but tell them the candy they walked for and collected they can't have but just leave it in their bag and then take it away after two weeks? What is the point of that?

.

 

He didnt go Trick or treating(his choice). I bought him a bag of candy he could have. My other one goes TOT but chooses, best she can candy she can have. At the end of the night he trades with 6 to if he wants.

[unsinkable]

No matter if you agree with Plateau Mama or not, have compassion and caring about a mom who writes a post like she did, instead of nitpicking and fingerpointing and blame/shaming.

 

(((Plateau Mama)))

 

I hope you got some good advice. I'm wiped out myself from my day or else I'd have something more coherent to say.

[City Mouse]

I had one of those always negitive kids who would let one seemingly small thing ruin an entire day. So I sure that the example with the candy is just the latest in a pattern of difficulties.

 

One thing that I started donig was asking more directed questions. Instead of "how was you day?" Or "how did you like xxx?", I would aske her to tell me 1 bad thing and 2 good things that happened. That made her focus on the details rather than the one bad thing.

My DD hasADHD and would hyper focus on thing much like a kid with autism. As ADHD was described to me at one point, the parts of her brain that controls impulses and lets other people regroup and cut off those kinds of feelings does not work as efficiently for her. That part works "slower" for her. That is why stimulant medicine works for her. it "speeds" up the part of the brain that is not working as efficiently as it should.

 

The not following the rules is really a separate issue. You have to suck it up and be very consistant. You stated that you let him get away with taking the candy upstairs because you were too tired to deal with it. He knows he will get away with his behavior some of the time, so it is worth the risk. He has learned that if he is difficult enough he will win. That causes his behavior to continue to escalate because he knows he just has to find that point where you will give up.

 

You need to figure out what hill you are willing to die on and what you absolute rules need to be and let therest go. If you aren't going to follow through every single time he takes food upstairs, the give up that rule.

When you decided exactly what you want the rules to be and are enforcing those rules consistently, be prepare for his behavior to get much worse before it gets any better. He is going to test to see if he can be "bad" enough to wear you down and win that battle. You also have to remember not to engage when he wants to argue or throw you off track by complaining about a sibling. Learn to say something like "I am sorry you feel that way, but you need to ...."

 

I used the book 1,2,3 Magic when I was going through similar problems. The plan does work faster with younger kids, but it works on middle schoolers too.

[Anne]

(((Plateau Mama)))

 

Hang in there, Mama!!!

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Anne

[Plateau Mama]

I. He doesn't just need the new candy, he wants his feelings acknowledged that he was wronged. It is different than an apology. At the moment he probably feels that the family doesn't understand why he is upset. It is frustrating to not be understood.

 

 

We did acknowledge, several times, that what his brother did was wrong. All of us, even his sister who had nothing to do with it. How many times and for how long are we to reacknlowleged it? And don't say till he gets over it because that could be years. Literally years. He still gripes about the time the dog knocked his brother over. Brother was 1, dog was a puppy, had nothing to do with him, other than he just doesn't like the dog.   

When we were in the midst of major food issues with dc who still did Halloween and egg hunts, I switched out the candy right after the event. I can't imagine letting a kid stare at candy he can't eat for a couple weeks.

 how do I get it through to everyone not being able to eat the candy is not the issue here! He doesn't care about the candy. I did immediatly switch out the candy (by giving him his own huge bag). He took candy he knew he wasn't supposed to have and took it upstairs, which he wasn't supposed to do. I/we didn't realize that at some imaginary date in the future he was going to take it to school for his classmates.

No matter if you agree with Plateau Mama or not, have compassion and caring about a mom who writes a post like she did, instead of nitpicking and fingerpointing and blame/shaming.

(((Plateau Mama)))

I hope you got some good advice. I'm wiped out myself from my day or else I'd have something more coherent to say.

thank you.

 

 

This isn't about the eggs. This isn't about candy. This isn't about his brother. I'm at my wits end because at least one morning a week he decides he's going to pick a fight before school. Not to mention the 3-5 times a week he does it in the afternoon. My other kids don't like hanging around him because they never know when he's going to start picking a fight over nothing. It breaks my heart to see his little brother bend over backwards to show his love only to be told what he did wrong.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Some of us are trying to tell you that getting an evaluation will help both you and he to not be locked in frustration.  I'm sure it is frustrating for him to not to be able let things go too.  I know it is for my son.  He's just older so he can express it better.  

[bettyandbob]

I used the candy as an example of how you have to approach a child who matures differently. It was the example in your op. You keep responding like you think we think candy is the issue, when it is clear that if you read the rest of my posts fully, I do address the bigger problem. The quirky kid who matures differently does drain your energy as a parent. He will drain more energy if you insist on treating him like a typical kid. From your own description your ds is not a typically developing child. You cannot expect him to be what he is not.

[bolt.]

You seem determined to label his tendency to focus on facts, along with his actual feeling levels and his keen sense of justice -- very negatively. In fact you label it as "negativity". That's a bit illogical. Do you really think that those personality traits should go away just because you don't really like living with them.

 

It seems like the only thing this child has done "wrong" is have a feeling that you assess to be disproportionate, and try to talk to you about it for longer than you felt like talking about it.

 

Those actions are only "wrong" if you are the file arbiter of what level of feelings are the "right" level of feelings, and which amount if talking is enough. Other than leaving conversations that you don't want to handle (personal boundaries) none of this is anything you need to worry about whatsoever.

 

All he's doing is talking: communicating with words and sounds. There isn't any reason for that to be a major issue in your house. You can handle someone talking at you. You do it all the time -- pull on that skill.

 

In the future, if you come round to accepting his perspective as something legitimate and valuable, you might be able to help him learn social strategies around what to do when he feel certain ways... But I don't recommend even starting that plan while you still think of him as someone with unnecessary and disproportionate feelings in the first place.

 

People don't choose their personalities, and he can't change his just because you don't like it. He can learn extra stuff about how to do better on the outside, if he is motivated to do so, but only from a "teacher" that he can trust not to belittle the things that are going on inside him.

[Plateau Mama]

Some of us are trying to tell you that getting an evaluation will help both you and he to not be locked in frustration. I'm sure it is frustrating for him to not to be able let things go too. I know it is for my son. He's just older so he can express it better.

 

jean, if you have names of people I can talk to feel free to send them my way. I've tried since he was 4 years old to get to the bottom of this. I've seen occupational therapists, (sensory/food issues), I've seen audiologists (5+ years of speech therapy, auditory processing, hearing issues), I've asked about spectrum. I've asked every one of the above about ADHD. We tried a therapist. I. Don't. Know. What. Else. To. Do.

 

My husband insists he doesn't have ADHD. He insists this is all normal. He deals with middle school youth. A lot. He insists this is just being 12. But he is just as frustrated as I am, if not more. He's just a much more patient person than I am.

You seem determined to label his tendency to focus on facts, along with his actual feeling levels and his keen sense of justice -- very negatively. In fact you label it as "negativity". That's a bit illogical. Do you really think that those personality traits should go away just because you don't really like living with them.

It seems like the only thing this child has done "wrong" is have a feeling that you assess to be disproportionate, and try to talk to you about it for longer than you felt like talking about it.

Those actions are only "wrong" if you are the file arbiter of what level of feelings are the "right" level of feelings, and which amount if talking is enough. Other than leaving conversations that you don't want to handle (personal boundaries) none of this is anything you need to worry about whatsoever.

All he's doing is talking: communicating with words and sounds. There isn't any reason for that to be a major issue in your house. You can handle someone talking at you. You do it all the time -- pull on that skill.

In the future, if you come round to accepting his perspective as something legitimate and valuable, you might be able to help him learn social strategies around what to do when he feel certain ways... But I don't recommend even starting that plan while you still think of him as someone with unnecessary and disproportionate feelings in the first place.

People don't choose their personalities, and he can't change his just because you don't like it. He can learn extra stuff about how to do better on the outside, if he is motivated to do so, but only from a "teacher" that he can trust not to belittle the things that are going on inside him.

. I seriously don't understand. Are you saying that I just have to let him moan and groan about things forever? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

My house is a war zone. The only way to keep the peace is for no one to say anything. Just let him do things however he wants and let him moan and groan about everything. Oh wait, that won't even work because my daughter eats too loudly. That sets him off at least once a week. But according to what you are saying it's ok for him to throw a fit because she's eating chips too loudly. After all he's just expressing his feelings.

 

Yes right now I'm short with him. I'm tired of listening to him gripe every minute he's home. I'm tired of always being treated like I'm the enemy. Like my title says I'm at my wits end. He doesn't do this at school. I've asked his teachers and they all adore him. He saves it all up for us at home.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Call your pediatrician.  Ask for a referral to a neuro-psychologist for a neuro-psych evaluation.  They should give you one, even if they might downplay the need for one.  You can also request for the school to do one, I believe.  You might ask on the Learning Challenges board.  They helped me a lot in trying to find out how to get my son tested.  

[Joanne]

Some of us are trying to tell you that getting an evaluation will help both you and he to not be locked in frustration.  I'm sure it is frustrating for him to not to be able let things go too.  I know it is for my son.  He's just older so he can express it better.  

 

If you were my client, I'd start with a suggestion to change the tone, nature, and perspective on the relationship.

 

Know first that I get it. My oldest was - and is - my most challenging child. I have been at my wits end for months at a time with him. He's now a young adult who hit a bottom in October and it slowly, in tiny incremental steps, making some needed changes. There have been times I have hated *myself* for feeling certain ways towards my son.

 

But, when I reach the point you are (and I have), I can't see clearly. My response to him and the culture and dynamic itself begins to create problems. The solution always, always, always starts with me having to change the dynamic. And that means loving him no matter what. That means offering care, nurture, fun, affection, joy, and playfulness when I don't have it in me. When every fiber of my being screams "it's not fair, he takes more than his share of every kind of family resources - from food to money to attention to energy." I resented and hated that the answer ALWAYS was I had to change the tone of the relationship.

 

I have had to step back and find ways to love him, to be affectionate, to build a history of positive - or at least neutral - interactions. There are some suggestions I have if you are willing.

 

He needs to FEEL loved in order for any solution to make headway. Please hear me; I am not saying he's NOT loved. I am saying he needs to feel it. And he can't be feeling it right now because you aren't sending it. That's ok - it is understandable. But it doesn't change the solution which is to create joy and the expectation of positive interaction. This will take some time, and work.

But your life with him takes time and work anyway, it's just a matter of what kind of time and work.

[bolt.]

Having trouble quoting, but I will try

 

You:

I seriously don't understand. Are you saying that I just have to let him moan and groan about things forever? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

Me:

Yes. It's only words, and his mouth belongs to him. Its normal for him to use it to say what he thinks to the people he lives with. As long as he is not hostile or verbally abusive, he's entitled to be somewhat tactless, repetitive and annoying. He's a child.

 

You:

My house is a war zone. The only way to keep the peace is for no one to say anything.

 

Me:

Are you saying he is aggressive or violent? I don't understand how moping and complaining becomes a war.

 

You:

Just let him do things however he wants and let him moan and groan about everything.

 

Me:

No, you require him to comply with rules and instructions, you just don't get combative if he has feelings about your requirements. Talking is allowed. Failure to follow instructions is the actual problem.

 

You:

Oh wait, that won't even work because my daughter eats too loudly. That sets him off at least once a week.

 

Me:

He holds the opinion that she eats too loudly. He experiences an intense feeling about the sound. Those are the "facts" -- you can't make the facts go away, so you have to help him manage the facts.

 

You:

But according to what you are saying it's ok for him to throw a fit because she's eating chips too loudly. After all he's just expressing his feelings.

 

Me:

"Throwing a fit" is more than talking. Do you mean he screams, wails, falls on the floor, thrashes etc?

 

I didn't say he can do anything about his feelings, I said that talking should be OK most if the time, even if it is "negative".

 

If he "throws fits" please give me more info, so I can better understand.

 

You:

Yes right now I'm short with him. I'm tired of listening to him gripe every minute he's home.

 

Me:

Your ears belong to you. You can use an exit line, "Hon, I understand what you've told me about your feelings, and I'm done feeling talk right now. If you still have more to say, let's talk again in a few hours." -- Then you go somewhere else and require him to leave you alone (unless something comes up, of course).

 

You:

I'm tired of always being treated like I'm the enemy.

 

Me:

You are acting like 'the enemy' because you have taken up a battle that isn't yours and doesn't need to be fought. He doesn't need to have a different emotional profile or personality: he needs to do the hard work of learning composure skills and upset-specific social skils...which both start with accepting his emotional state... Which he can't do while you are telling him that his emotional state isn't acceptable.

 

You:

Like my title says I'm at my wits end. He doesn't do this at school. I've asked his teachers and they all adore him. He saves it all up for us at home.

 

Me:

Yes, I expect that his parents are very close to his heart and therefore the trigger for a lot if his most intense emotional moments.

 

It's a very good thing that those times (when he needs parenting) he is around his parents, eh?

 

---

 

I'm trying to convince you to relax, to accept, to stop the war and not be the enemy. It really can evaporate fairly easily and move on to just you teaching him composure and social skills.

 

All you need to do is convince yourself that it's not wrong for him to be this way.

 

It's (maybe) bad luck that he has to deal with extra difficult learning around how to cope with himself -- but as long as he's got you, and you both tackle those skills together, the teamwork will pay off.

[HSmomof2]

:grouphug: :grouphug:

I don't have much in the way of advice, but just wanted to say that I understand how frustrated you are.....it's not about the Easter egg incident, it's about being around this type of child 24/7 is absolutely exhausting. Yes, I do think being 12 is part of it. I have a ds (11) who son who sounds very similar....we also went down the occupational therapy (sensory issues), neuropsych eval, etc. My ds isn't on the spectrum, doesn't have ADHD, etc. He is a very emotional person, wants things to be 'fair' all the time, and just can't let go of things. He still brings up a fall he had on our patio that left a small scar on his leg---this was when he was 3 years old! Sending him to his room only exacerbates his negativity. But, letting him carry on and on about something doesn't seem to help either.

 

I would suggest continuing to look for another therapist....they vary greatly. After some trial and error, we found one for ds that has been an excellent match (he's a psychologist with 6 grown sons of his own, and his wife homeschooled them). He has given him some tools to work with, starting by recognizing when he needs to let go or not get upset. It hasn't been a miracle cure, but we are seeing changes in his behavior.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Having reactions that are disproportionate to the situation is developmentally somewhat normal for a tween.  But it depends on how disproportionate it is to the situation, how often it is and how long it has been going on.  Some things to possibly explore either individually or more likely in combination with each other:  anxiety, sensory processing issues, Aspergers.  You need a psychiatrist or a psychologist, not a pediatrician and not a therapist, because I think they can diagnose what's going on better.  Once you have a diagnosis, they might recommend a therapist or someone else.  

[Plateau Mama]

If you were my client, I'd start with a suggestion to change the tone, nature, and perspective on the .

Joanne, thank you so much. I know I need to live him most when he's most unlovable. I'm really struggling with how to do that.

 

I try to show him he is loved but everything I do he finds fault with. The only positive thing I've heard this week was me cleaning his room. Which surprised me because I didn't even do it for him.

 

If I make cookies he will find fault with them. They are overlooked, undercooked whatever.

 

If I buy him a book I think he will like he complains because he has no time to read it.

 

If I take him to movies he complains that he can't have a treat. (Physically can't have not that I won't buy him one.)

 

I just don't know how to show him he is loved.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

You listed all the things you've had him tested for. Have you considered gifted testing? Research gifted overexcitiblilities and see if you think it might fit. Because, yes, you WERE unfair. I would have been upset by that at that age, too. Gifted kids often have a very strong sense of fairness/justice that when violated can be extremely hurtful to them.Beyond what you as a normal parent would expect or understand.

[Joanne]

Joanne, thank you so much. I know I need to live him most when he's most unlovable. I'm really struggling with how to do that.

 

I try to show him he is loved but everything I do he finds fault with. The only positive thing I've heard this week was me cleaning his room. Which surprised me because I didn't even do it for him.

 

If I make cookies he will find fault with them. They are overlooked, undercooked whatever.

 

If I buy him a book I think he will like he complains because he has no time to read it.

 

If I take him to movies he complains that he can't have a treat. (Physically can't have not that I won't buy him one.)

 

I just don't know how to show him he is loved.

 

Does he have any humor zones? In what ways can you be funny together?

 

Does he accept affection?

 

Is there anything he is interested in you can ask questions about - without ANY commentary of correction?

 

Are you willing to start a "positive exchange" book with him? Go buy a blank journal (preferably with him) and use it to write one (just one) positive thing to each other once a day.

 

Find 2? 3? things to compliment - without it being double sided - him each day.

 

Look for, find and use every thing you can to praise, be positive, be playful, be loving.

For correction, consider code words - they may break the negative cycle somewhat. Please note I put correction on the bottom of the list.

 

Honestly, it sounds like something *more* is present and I am sending you good thoughts in having the right professionals see whatever it may be.

[bolt.]

Showing him love is still showing him love. I don't think his (tactless) habit of observing deficiencies means that he isn't receiving the love in your gestures.

 

In a juvenile mind things like "cookies are tasty" and "movies are nice" are quite obvious enough to go without saying -- if you view things that need saying as 'the things the other person migh not know already' (which logical people can tend to do).

 

As adults we learn that mentioning those obvious things are a way to strengthen relationships and increase the other person's motivation to repeat the action -- but it's indirect, so it might not be something that all kids pick up naturally.

 

Try this...

You: do you like the cookies?

Him: they are over cooked.

You: oh, good to know. I'll put a note on my recipe. (Pause) But do you like having cookies more than you like not having cookies?

Him: duh! Of course people like cookies, but I've had better.

You: if you like having cookies, there are things you might do or say to make *me* happy about having made cookies. Right now I don't feel good about having made them.

Him: well, they aren't very good.

You: you already mentioned that. What I'm trying to say is that when I feel unhappy after I've made cookies, sometimes I take a break and don't make them again soon. Other times I feel good about making cookies, and I make them again right away. Now think about this: I do know about not over cooking them next time, so, how soon do you want next time to be?

Him: soon, I guess. Whenever you want.

You: so, do you want to know how to change my feelings and shift my idea of when I might make cookies next?

Him: ok

You: so, there's two ideas. One is to thank the person for their work, even if it didn't turn out well, but you don't say the 2nd part. You only say the thanking part. The other is to find something you do like and compliment that part, even if you don't like everything about it.

Him: but mom, that's dumb. Why do I have to do that?

You: you don't have to do it. It's just that you have the freedom to influence people and get cookies more often -- and now you know two ways how. Just use them when you want to.