Teachin'Mine Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Just saw that the German family seeking asylum in the US has been denied their appeal and will be deported. Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJosMom Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 :crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I don't think that this family should receive asylum. They are not refugees, and they are not being persecuted for their religious beliefs. They just don't like the law in Germany pertaining to homeschooling. I looked up what qualifies as "persecution" for asylum status. These things do not apply to this family. I wouldn't be happy if I lived in a place where homeschooling were not allowed, but I would not claim I was persecuted if I broke the law and did it anyway. physical violence: for example, beating, assault, handcuffing, rape or sexual abuse, female genital mutilation, electric shocks, invasive physical examinations, forced abortion or sterilization, forced labor, and so on, whether or not this caused serious injuries or long-term damage or required medical attention torture: a severe human rights violation which may involve physical violence, deliberate infliction of mental harm, prolonged unlawful detention, rape and sexual violence, and so on other violations of human rights: for example, genocide or slavery threats of harm: particularly if the threatened harm is serious, caused emotional or psychological damage, or are credible, for example because the persecutor has already inflicted harm on the person or his or her family or others similarly situated unlawful detention: punishment for a regular crime is not persecution, but if the person is detained without due process or formal charges or for discriminatory or political reasons, this may rise to the level of persecution, particularly if the detention was combined with mistreatment infliction of mental, emotional, or psychological harm: this can include intimidation, surveillance, interference with privacy, long-term threats, or being forced to engage in conduct that is not physically painful or harmful but is abhorrent to the person’s deepest beliefs substantial economic discrimination or harm: for example, deliberate deprivation of food, housing, employment, or other life essentials, or ransacking, destruction, or confiscation of property other discrimination or harassment: for example, passport denial, pressure to become an informer, or restrictions on access to education; also, some applicants may need to show a combination of actions against them if none by themselves was serious to fit traditional understandings of persecution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 If I recall correctly, the family are EU citizens, with the right to live and work in any EU country, many (most?) of which allow homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 If I recall correctly, the family are EU citizens, with the right to live and work in any EU country, many (most?) of which allow homeschooling. Yes - they could have legally moved to the UK, for example, and home educated. Having never had children in the British school system, they would have had no duty to announce their intention or to make any kind of annual report. They would have required no visa. The parents would have been free to work and the family would have had the right to apply for whatever social assistance their situation entitled them to, exactly as if they were British. I fear that they had very, very bad advice in taking the course of applying for asylum. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The family doesn't need asylum in the US. Asylum is only granted to a certain number of people per year. This family shouldn't be taking the place of a true refugee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I fear that they had very, very bad advice in taking the course of applying for asylum. Someone had a political agenda with this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 Thank you, I didn't realize the situation. I remember it being discussed a year or so ago, but I didn't remember that they could have chosen to move to the UK or another EU country which allows homeschooling. Yes, it sounds like they were poorly advised. Thanks for the info! I hope they can make a better choice and continue to homeschool their children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Thank you, I didn't realize the situation. I remember it being discussed a year or so ago, but I didn't remember that they could have chosen to move to the UK or another EU country which allows homeschooling. Yes, it sounds like they were poorly advised. Thanks for the info! I hope they can make a better choice and continue to homeschool their children. I think a lot of people don't realise that moving from one EU country to another involves a change of language (often) but otherwise is not very different from moving from one US state to another. You arrive, open a bank account, find somewhere to live, find a job..... I've worked in France for two years as a Brit and it was no big deal. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplemom Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 You know, I am sad for the original situation that the family couldn't legally homeschool in their country. I am also sad that they were told by one court judge in TN they could seek asylum in the US, and their hopes got dashed when that decision was appealed. However, I can understand the predicament the court system would be in if the Surpreme Court offered the family asylum. If so, then that would open up for all homeschoolers around the world who live in countries where it is illegal to homeschool to legally come to the US on grounds of persecution (for being denied their religious or moral conviction to homeschool). I don't want to be insensitive to people who are citizens of countries that don't allow homeschooling, but it is not practical for the US to grant asylum to all homeschoolers around the world. Homeschoolers from Germany have tried to seek refuge in other Westernized countries to homeschool, and told by other countries they can't stay for the long haul. It is a noble thing to call homeschooling a legal right to every parent around the world, but if the US would grant asylum to this one family, it would be more difficult to deny asylum to any other families that came here for that purpose. Then that would put the US in political tension with other countries such as Germany. It's like the US saying to Germany or another country that outlaws homeschooling, "since homeschooling is legal in our 50 states, it should be for your citizens as well, and if the rights we give our citizens aren't given to your citizens, then your citizens can become refugees in our country." Also, people in the US fought hard to legalize homeschooling in all 50 states, and it can be up to the citizens of other countries to ban together to put political pressure on their governments to legalize homeschooling. If German citizens don't ban together to start changing the law now, it will definitely never change. If our citizens accepted the illegal status of homeschooling in many states several decades ago, and instead just moved to states where homeschooling was legal, then perhaps today those states that had local officials/representatives fight for the legalization of homeschooling on behalf of their state residents would have never succeeded. If German citizens do take on their government on the issue of homeschool laws, it will probably take a lot of money, lots of upheaval, and decades to change the laws. But like in the US, it has to start somewhere. It is sad that some of our grandparents or great grandparents were denied the right to homeschool because it was illegal in many states a few generations ago (sorry, not up with when, where and for how long this was a big issue in the US), but at that time another country couldn't accept a US citizen in on refugee status because of homeschooling. I am all for homeschooling being a right of every parent in every country. But, it is not practical for the US to grant asylum to every citizen around the world who wants to homeschool. I understand asylum in the US for extreme persecution like physical danger and abuse. Granting asylum in a situation where a foreign citizen is being tortured, abused, beaten, treated lower than animals is much different than granting asylum for homeschooling. Being denied the right to homeschool is persecution, however, there is persecution in other countries for other things beyond homeschooling and the US can't take them all on. For example, many countries persecute women by not allowing education of the women and treating women like men's property instead of human beings, thinking Afghanistan pre 9/11. The US can't grant every woman in every country that isn't treated with equal rights as men asylum here, just because we have a law that on paper protects women from being denied the rights men have. It took a huge, bloody Civil Rights Movement and decades of fighting for Women's rights to get to that point in our country. Even though it is not right for other countries to treat women with less respect than men, the US can't reasonably make a political statement to all countries that don't give full rights to women that the women of their countries can live here because the laws of that country don't line up with US laws. Same for homeschooling. Sorry for all the run-on sentences. It's hard to put into words the point I am trying to make, while at the same time I do have compassion on this German family along with other families in other countries suffering persecution as a result of abiding by their conviction to homeschool even if means the parents going to prison for their choices. It is terrible that Germany and other European nations haven't updated their homeschool laws since Hitler. OTO, even if the US government believes all countries should give the choice for all citizens to decide for their children's education, it would be a shaky international political situation if the US Supreme Court considered outlaw of homeschooling in other nations persecution to the point of offering refugee status in our country for anyone who wanted to homeschool. P.S. This should have been posted in the unpopular opinion thread, lol. No flares, PLEEEASEEEEE!,,,,,,,,, please grant me grace in this different viewpoint of the situation, I promise my heart goes out to this family and I am very sorry for their situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplemom Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Update, it took me a long time to post this in words, and I now read that some others expressed similar views while I was typing, thus my lengthy post is repeating much information written by others. Glad to see I'm not the only one viewing it from a different angle. I wouldn't have dared posted this on a different, smaller conservative homeschool board, I would have been banned from any further posts for eternity. Glad to get my unpopular opinion posted here without flames. Wow, after catching up on what was posted about EU laws and the ease of moving from one country to another, I am in shock this wasn't brought up when I first heard about the case on a small conservative homeschool forum, where everyone there was having a pity party that the poor family wasn't getting full US support for being here. If I knew they could have up and moved to England and not have had to have the political fight they had here, I never would have felt bad for them. It sounds like this family had connections with those here with some political or judicial ties that wanted to create an upheaval about Germany's laws. I feel sorry now, not so much for the family, but all the people who pay annual dues to the HSLDA that spent so much money trying to fight for that family's right to be granted asylum in the US! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Wow, after catching up on what was posted about EU laws and the ease of moving from one country to another, I am in shock this wasn't brought up when I first heard about the case on a small conservative homeschool forum, where everyone there was having a pity party that the poor family wasn't getting full US support for being here. If I knew they could have up and moved to England and not have had to have the political fight they had here, I never would have felt bad for them. It sounds like this family had connections with those here with some political or judicial ties that wanted to create an upheaval about Germany's laws. I feel sorry now, not so much for the family, but all the people who pay annual dues to the HSLDA that spent so much money trying to fight for that family's right to be granted asylum in the US! Which begs the question - Did HSLDA know "they could have up and moved to England and not have had to have the political fight they had here"? If HSLDA didn't know, why not? The family themselves would have known this; it is a basic right for citizens of the EU. Any immigration lawyer who worked with EU clients would have known this. If HSLDA did know, were they fully honest with "all the people who pay annual dues to the HSLDA", especially when asking for money to finance this case? And why did they spend "so much money trying to fight for that family's right to be granted asylum in the US"? It's complicated, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Which begs the question - Did HSLDA know "they could have up and moved to England and not have had to have the political fight they had here"? If HSLDA didn't know, why not? The family themselves would have known this; it is a basic right for citizens of the EU. Any immigration lawyer who worked with EU clients would have known this. If HSLDA did know, were they fully honest with "all the people who pay annual dues to the HSLDA", especially when asking for money to finance this case? And why did they spend "so much money trying to fight for that family's right to be granted asylum in the US"? It's complicated, isn't it? When you read the comments from Michael Farris after the decision, you can see that everything HSLDA did was 100% motivated by the desire to squeeze money from some of their diehard followers. Lots of dog whistles for those paying close attention to his statements. “I think this is a part of the Obama administration’s overall campaign to crush religious freedom in this country,†said Michael Farris, chairman of the Home School Legal Defense Association. His organization is representing family. “The Obama administration’s attitude toward religious freedom, particularly religious freedom for Christians is shocking,†he told me in an exclusive telephone interview. “I have little doubt that if this family had been of some other faith that the decision would have never been appealed in the first place. They would have let this family stay.†http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/03/03/team-obama-wins-fight-to-have-christian-home-school-family-deported/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsJewelsRae Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I'm curious, is the option to move to another country in the EU still an option? I think a judge in Germany took their passports. I don't understand why they wouldn't have done this in the first place- avoided all this circus, the heartache, the police coming in their home and forcing their children to school?! Surely they must have known...? Also if they wanted to move to the US so badly, if he were offered a job by an American company, couldn't he just apply for a work visa and move his family here? Wouldn't that have been much easier? Judging by all the hoopla on HSLDA generated by this story (I get their newsfeed on facebook) hundreds/thousands of people were rooting for this family- surely one of them would have gladly offered him a job in order to get his family safely in the US? (Not American so I could be totally off, please inform me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Which begs the question - Did HSLDA know "they could have up and moved to England and not have had to have the political fight they had here"? Of course they knew. As I stated earlier, someone had a political agenda. We all know who it was. HSLDA didn't care about this family. They just cared about stirring up another non-crisis to wrest more money out of the hands of people who think they need protection by HSLDA. HSLDA feeds on fear and encouraging people to feel powerless. They are a loathsome organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 The whole thing was an ill-conceived publicity stunt that makes a mockery of refugee status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 But that wouldn't have created a huge drama and lots of publicity for the HSLDA, would it? For me, this saga did just about the opposite of what they might have intended — they portrayed themselves as an organization that cheaply uses people in a vulnerable position for personal gain, knowing that it will lead to serious consequences for the people themselves. Most HSLDA members don't know this info though and continue to think they were trying to save this poor family. I just saw this all over FB, like the pp I want to comment about the actual facts of the case but I know that will only bring flames. I think it is appalling that we want asylum granted for hs'ing, when there are so many people facing so many more horrible things, like war and genocide. What kind of precedent would this set? Do we really want to let everyone in OR do we want to deny those who really need safety? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 HSLDA had an agenda. They played the family. The end result is absolutely correct. The family was not blocked from leaving Germany and moving to another EU country. If that had been the case, they couldn't have left Germany for the US in the first place. HSLDA made false promises to this family so they came here. This family was not "targeted" for deportation. They weren't here properly in the first place. They never qualified for political asylum (no matter what HSLDA claimed). Deportation had *nothing* to do with their religion (or homeschooling status for that matter). They simply didn't qualify for political asylum as they were claiming. Had the father gotten a job in the US with a company willing to sponsor the work visa, they could have moved here and happily homeschooled. I know one family currently who are from Germany and another from Australia who are doing just that with the work visa thing (neither family homeschools, but that wouldn't matter). But... speaking of following the money... if they had done that it wouldn't have been a media circus exploited by HSLDA. The school in NY *needed* to be closed. It was failing - worse than the public schools. Only 7 1/2% of kids passed the state reading exams and only 10% passed the math ones. I'm not a fan of using standardized tests to measure what kids are learning, but in this case you can absolutely compare apples to apples and see that the kids in other charters and in the public schools were scoring much, much better. Education was not happening at that school. It's not so simple as "don't like charter schools, lets close it." There are other charter schools in NY that are operating happily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Controlling the masses so that they all think alike is a scary, progressive agenda. I am going to support any and all home schooling families who are fighting for the freedom to educate their own children. Wait, why is this a progressive idea? You do realize that many liberal/progressives homeschool their children and believe in families having choices in how their kids are educated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 But it is perfectly OK for illegal immigrants to come to the US and put their kids in public schools here. In fact, our public schools are required to enroll them. So it does seem to be a bit of a double standard, although I agree that asylum is probably a stretch. Though on the other hand, if they really legitimately fear their kids being taken away if they are deported, then maybe it's not such a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 But it is perfectly OK for illegal immigrants to come to the US and put their kids in public schools here. In fact, our public schools are required to enroll them. So it does seem to be a bit of a double standard, although I agree that asylum is probably a stretch. Though on the other hand, if they really legitimately fear their kids being taken away if they are deported, then maybe it's not such a stretch. It's not *okay* for people to come into the country undocumented. That's a totally separate conversation. This family applied for asylum and were denied. Denial of asylum happens all the time; it's not unique to this family. What's unique is Fox News wanting undocumented people to stay here, but they are white and Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 We discussed this ad nauseam last year. Asylum is for people who fear for their lives. The Romeike family had plenty of options. They could have freely moved within Europe to a country where homeschooling is legal. No way should they be taking up one of the limited asylum slots ahead of people who have to fear torture and death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 But it is perfectly OK for illegal immigrants to come to the US and put their kids in public schools here. In fact, our public schools are required to enroll them. So it does seem to be a bit of a double standard, although I agree that asylum is probably a stretch. Though on the other hand, if they really legitimately fear their kids being taken away if they are deported, then maybe it's not such a stretch. Perfect, we can help all immigrants home school and they can all legally immigrate. :D Now I know what to do with these books... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If I'm not mistaken, the German gov't was blocking them from moving to another EU country. They want the children in public school, period. You are mistaken. 1. EU citizens are free to move within the EU. there are no borders, no passport controls, nobody asks questions. (Sure, if you engage in illegal activtites for several years and appear in the media, you land on the radar - but you don't have to do that. 2. There is no mandatory public schooling. The family is free to enroll their children in a religious private school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 It's not *okay* for people to come into the country undocumented. That's a totally separate conversation. This family applied for asylum and were denied. Denial of asylum happens all the time; it's not unique to this family. What's unique is Fox News wanting undocumented people to stay here, but they are white and Christian. If the government makes no move to deport them, then their kids are getting similar treatment to the kids who were not here legally but have the legal right to attend public schools. But if they give these kids' deportation case any kind of priority over all the public school kids not legally here, then I think it's fair to ask why. I don't buy the religion thing. Plenty of religious folks send their kids to all kinds of schools. And I'm not a fan of the Fox article. I don't care about the religion issue (as far as I know Germany isn't known for beating down religion), but the risk of having your kids removed over a non-abusive parenting choice is a big deal for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 But it is perfectly OK for illegal immigrants to come to the US and put their kids in public schools here. In fact, our public schools are required to enroll them. So it does seem to be a bit of a double standard, although I agree that asylum is probably a stretch. Though on the other hand, if they really legitimately fear their kids being taken away if they are deported, then maybe it's not such a stretch. The problem is that none of our laws suggest that our constitution should be enforced on other nations. Homeschooling is not considered a fundamental human right. Therefore, they are just simply in violation of home laws that they don't agree with, but are not human rights violations. It's a matter for Germany, not the U.S. unless we are going to start inviting Germany to have a say in our home laws. We've got plenty of true, human rights violations they could get in a major snit about, and probably have a very real moral right to do so. We could argue that our lack of a singlepayer healthcare system for ALL is a HUGE human rights violation. People DIE from lack of healthcare. But, you don't see Europe coming over here and lobbying against us nor taking our citizens as refugees because their lives are in danger. They violated the law repeatedly. They were not persecuted. They could have obeyed the law. They could have moved. They chose not to and are therefore in deep legal doo doo in their homeland. It is unfortunate, but due to the unethical advice of HSLDA they came here and filed for a status they had NO business filing for and now face deportation which may very well cause them to lose custody of their children. But, they brought this on themselves when they decided to follow absolutely STUPID legal advice from an organization that has no experience with immigration issues. Had they consulted an actual US Immigration Attorney, they would not have been in this position and could have moved to the UK, or Denmark, or Italy, or wherever and set up homeschooling shop. What they have done is probably set back the grass roots movement to change public and political opinion on the subject of homeschooling as a valid alternative education path in Germany. Unless the UN Commission on Human Rights starts proclaiming homeschooling as some sort of inalienable human right, then losing custody for choosing to violate home laws and continue homeschooling is not a concern of the international legal community. The Court of the United States did it's job, and did it very, very well. Just because the decision is not popular, doesn't mean it is wrong. God help us if our courts start functioning by matter of public opinion polling. We can just watch the constitution get tossed out the window on a regular basis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I said there was a double standard. I didn't say all errant homeschoolers in the world should come here on an asylum visa. I still say people shouldn't have their kids taken away over homeschooling. If the law allows that, in a civilized country, someone ought to be ashamed. If they had other options such as moving to another EU country legally and still homeschooling, then they should have done that and the asylum case is bogus. But I still think it's a human rights violation to take kids away over the parent's decision to educate at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If I'm not mistaken, the German gov't was blocking them from moving to another EU country. They want the children in public school, period. I think that it's unbelievable that the Obama admin. targeted this family for deportation. Is there a political agenda? Yes, and one just has to follow the money back to the teachers' union here in the US. In fact, some local democrats in our area have tried many times to get home schooling, charter schools, and even private schools eliminated from the education arena. Look at what the mayor of NY just did in kicking out 700 charter school students from their school buildings, in the middle of the school year no less. Controlling the masses so that they all think alike is a scary, progressive agenda. I am going to support any and all home schooling families who are fighting for the freedom to educate their own children. 1.) You are mistaken. The family could have moved elsewhere in Germany earlier. 2.) There is no evidence that this family was targeted for deportation. They did not meet the criteria for seeking asylum and in most cases those seeking asylum in the U.S. are denied. (In a given year, 99% of those seeking asylum from Mexico are denied. China has one of the highest acceptance rates at roughly 50%, and from what I have read this appears to be due to those who are granted asylum if they are leaving China to avoid punishment under the One Child policy.) Considering the majority of those seeking asylum in the U.S. do not have it granted, claiming this family was "targeted" seems a bit odd. 3.) Are you sure you have your facts correct on the charter schools in New York? Yes, Mayor de Blasio has cancelled some agreements in place with Success Academy, however, those were agreements for future charter schools and no students were thrown out of their schools into the cold streets of New York. Those schools are also still allowed to operate, but they will not be allowed to use NYC public school facilities. 4.) Your last sentence makes it clear you are the target audience of Farris and his ilk. I suggest you do a little independent research next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplemom Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If there is any problem with Germany allowing the family to relocate to another area within the EU, such as England, it may because the parents already have fines or court appearances for possible jail sentences placed on them for homeschooling against the law for an extended amount of time before they left the country. It may be that they can't get legal residence within the EU until they are cleared from fines or charges they already have against them in Germany. I have NO IDEA if that is their legal situation, but I did read an article several months ago if and when they return to Germany they will face charges and fines. The parents probably knew they could legally relocate before they homeschooled in Germany for an extended amount of time, but chose not to, instead they were probably initially wanted to make a stand before the government, "these are our children to raise, not yours." I bet the fines and charges accumulated, and after that it got more complicated to move within the EU. After that, I bet someone within HSLDA told them they would take up the case if they would come to the US. Maybe Germany allowed them to leave just for travel, vacation to the US, but fully expected them to return and face the charges. I am again sorry they had to face court sentences and fines for homeschooling in Germany, but they could have chosen to move before their children reached school aged. Germany did not say, you can't homeschool no matter what, they just said you can't homeschool as long as you live in Germany. Their had a choice to homeschool before they did so illegally for many years, they just should moved prior to getting that deep in the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If the government makes no move to deport them, then their kids are getting similar treatment to the kids who were not here legally but have the legal right to attend public schools. But if they give these kids' deportation case any kind of priority over all the public school kids not legally here, then I think it's fair to ask why. I don't buy the religion thing. Plenty of religious folks send their kids to all kinds of schools. And I'm not a fan of the Fox article. I don't care about the religion issue (as far as I know Germany isn't known for beating down religion), but the risk of having your kids removed over a non-abusive parenting choice is a big deal for me. The difference is that the undocumented family is not on the government radar. The school systems do not call ICE to have families deported. If your hypothetical public school family applied for asylum and were denied, there would be a deportation order issued. Instead, they'll be waiting to get caught, arrested, and deported for some other reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 The Romieke family should be pissed at HSLDA for using them as a pawn in a publicity and fundraising stunt. Immigrating from Germany with a work visa is not that difficult. It's not a walk in the park, no immigration is, but it is not that hard to do. If their goal was really to live in the US (rather than HSLDA shopping for test cases), there are routes to that outside of very limited asylum slots. Asylum is not for people who merely don't like the laws of their home nation. It is for people facing real dangers and persecution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Also if they wanted to move to the US so badly, if he were offered a job by an American company, couldn't he just apply for a work visa and move his family here? Wouldn't that have been much easier? Generally, we don't let people in unless it's advantageous for the US to have them here; we prefer to fill American jobs with American workers. In order to get a work visa, you need to fit into one of the legal categories. Basically, for a work visa, you need to be a high muckety-muck in an international corporation, a high achiever in your field, or someone with special skills (IT guys, engineers, etc.). There are some visas for temporary agricultural work, and a few (but not many) for unskilled labor jobs. See here and here for temporary visas, and here for longer-term ones. So it's *possible* the mom or dad could have gotten a work visa, but if I recall correctly they weren't high-achieving STEM type folks, so it would not have been easy. If that was their goal, they would have been wise to consult a lawyer who specializes in immigration, rather than lawyers who specialize in defending Christian homeschooling families. But it is perfectly OK for illegal immigrants to come to the US and put their kids in public schools here. In fact, our public schools are required to enroll them. So it does seem to be a bit of a double standard, although I agree that asylum is probably a stretch. It's not "OK" for illegal immigrants to come to the US. It's illegal. While there is debate as to whether we're finding and deporting enough people who came here without a visa, nonetheless hundreds of thousands of them are deported each year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If an American says "if you don't like the way things are in the USA, leave," that is rarely met with approval. But we're basically saying this German family should have been satisfied with that. "If you don't like having your human rights violated, leave." The fact that people can leave does not stop a rights violation from being a rights violation. I'm not saying it rises to the level of an asylum visa, but I don't like the way some people are just blowing it off, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 ... Is there a political agenda? Yes, and one just has to follow the money back to the teachers' union here in the US. In fact, some local democrats in our area have tried many times to get home schooling, charter schools, and even private schools eliminated from the education arena. Look at what the mayor of NY just did in kicking out 700 charter school students from their school buildings, in the middle of the school year no less. Controlling the masses so that they all think alike is a scary, progressive agenda. I am going to support any and all home schooling families who are fighting for the freedom to educate their own children. This is why diversity is important in homeschooling organizations. It's important for homeschoolers in local communities to get to know others in their area who are homeschooling, *especially* when they come from different parts of the political spectrum, so they can work together to explain to politicians that homeschooling is not a Republican thing or a Democrat thing, not a conservative thing or a liberal/progressive thing, not a Christian thing or a non-Christian thing, not a rich thing or a poor thing, not an urban thing or a rural thing, etc. It's not as simple as Republican = pro-homeschooling, Democrat = anti-homeschooling. If your local politicians think it is, you've got some work to do in your area. Open your local homeschooling community to welcome those who are not Republican/Protestant/conservative, so you can form the alliances that will protect homeschooling for everyone in your community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I am a liberal, progressive and big D Democrat but I am quite unaware of any overarching progressive agenda around homeschooling. If anyone has an agenda here, they would be spelled H-S-L-D-A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If an American says "if you don't like the way things are in the USA, leave," that is rarely met with approval. But we're basically saying this German family should have been satisfied with that. "If you don't like having your human rights violated, leave." I don't feel anyone is saying that. My opinion is that this family had several options: 1. comply with the law; 2. work to change the law; 3. defy the law and accept the consequences; 4. legally immigrate to another country. Pretending to be a refugee is really not an option. There are things I don't like about the US. I can: 1. deal with it. 2. run my mouth about it. 3. work to change it. 4. leave. If I lived in a state where homeschooling was illegal, and chose to do it anyway, I would not then claim I was a persecuted victim if I got in trouble for doing it. I would 1. work to change the law; 2. deal with it; or 3. move. And again: homeschooling is not a human right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Going back to the accusations that the family was singled out by the Obama administration, total deportations on an annual basis, including Latinos, from the U.S. have increased under Obama. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/19/high-rate-of-deportations-continue-under-obama-despite-latino-disapproval/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 My problem with this case is that the family WAS granted political asylum through the federal court system. I do not think it is right for that asylum (which was given through the proper legal channels) to be taken away. This family has integrated into our community (I live nearby) and is valued as a contributing member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 My problem with this case is that the family WAS granted political asylum through the federal court system. I do not think it is right for that asylum (which was given through the proper legal channels) to be taken away. This family has integrated into our community (I live nearby) and is valued as a contributing member. Judges make mistakes and get reversed on appeal all the time. The original petition should not have been granted. To let it stand would be an abuse of the asylum system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If an American says "if you don't like the way things are in the USA, leave," that is rarely met with approval. But we're basically saying this German family should have been satisfied with that. "If you don't like having your human rights violated, leave." The fact that people can leave does not stop a rights violation from being a rights violation. I'm not saying it rises to the level of an asylum visa, but I don't like the way some people are just blowing it off, either. If we don't like the laws here, we can work to change them. The German family has the same option, and if they don't want to do that, then they can live somewhere else. I don't know what else you think should happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Judges make mistakes and get reversed on appeal all the time. The original petition should not have been granted. To let it stand would be an abuse of the asylum system. Obviously a matter of opinion the original granter of asylum did not agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If we don't like the laws here, we can work to change them. The German family has the same option, and if they don't want to do that, then they can live somewhere else. I don't know what else you think should happen. I absolutely agree that this whole asylum situation is bogus and made up by the HSDLA, but I had to laugh at what you wrote above (in red, by me). You make it sound sooooo easy. 'Just work on changing the law'. It is freaking hard to change the law!!! At the moment a new law is being prepared to make homeschooling illegal in the Netherlands. You have NO IDEA how MUCH I want that proposal not to be turned into law. I'm not looking forward to having to emigrate in order to homeschool! Leaving all our friends. Leaving my aging parents. Leaving. my. country. 'Just work to change the law and *if* you don't want that....bla,bla,bla'. Pfoey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Obviously a matter of opinion the original granter of asylum did not agree with. Judges do not always follow the law and are hardly above politics, as they are all either political appointees or elected. The appeal was necessary to uphold the law and preserve asylum for those who have legitimate claims and can offer proof they are in harm's way. We have higher courts for the reason. In this case, the opinion that matters is the higher court, not the judge whose ruling was reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Obviously a matter of opinion the original granter of asylum did not agree with. Asylum is a process, and the judge in the first hearing does not get the final say. Had the family been denied asylum at that hearing, they would have appealed the verdict as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Didn't they move to the US to homeschool? That defeats the argument that they shouldn't have to move to another country. They already did, but they chose a country with obstacles for entry and residence instead of an easily-accessed EU country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Indeed. This situation isn't theoretical for me either. I don't think one should generally be granted asylum for being denied the right to homeschool, but it's not easy at all. I do wonder how US homeschoolers would react if the right to homeschool would somehow disappear. Would you "just" comply with the law and enroll your kids in public school or "just" move to a whole other country? I was in that situation in both Hong Kong and China. The legal situation in both countries was unclear, so it was always possible that inspectors would turn up and tell me to put my children into school. I would indeed have either done so or moved country. If you live in a country you obey its laws, work to change them if you wish, get out if necessary. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 What if the country you live in is a country you are a citizen of (either native or naturalized, doesn't really matter)? If you are a foreigner living in a place, I generally agree with a policy of "comply or get out". If you live in your own country, it really isn't that simple. Not everyone is lucky enough to live in a country that allows for easy immigration either — while it is simple for EU citizens, it's not simple for citizens of less affluent countries at all for many reasons, including financial and administrative. I understand. In that situation, I would indeed comply. If Scotland had rescinded the home education laws after we moved back, and I hadn't had the money for private school, I would have put my children into the local state school and worked my hardest to make sure that they got the best education that pushing and afterschooling could provide. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I was in that situation in both Hong Kong and China. The legal situation in both countries was unclear, so it was always possible that inspectors would turn up and tell me to put my children into school. I would indeed have either done so or moved country. If you live in a country you obey its laws, work to change them if you wish, get out if necessary. L The US is a country where many laws have been changed because of civil disobedience. Laws are sometimes broken in order to change them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I was in that situation in both Hong Kong and China. The legal situation in both countries was unclear, so it was always possible that inspectors would turn up and tell me to put my children into school. I would indeed have either done so or moved country. If you live in a country you obey its laws, work to change them if you wish, get out if necessary. L I agree with this. I did NOT agree with 'just work to change the laws, and if you don't want that....you leave'. The Netherlands is a democracy, but 200 families who want something 'crazy' don't have much chance to change the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Did anyone say that? I think the point was that moving to another country is not always possible, but is always complicated even if it is possible — and getting the law changed is much more complicated than moving to another country. And actions like this pretty much ensure that the sentiment in German society will remain staunchly anti homeschooling. This has cause so much damage to the German movement to legalize homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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