Stuff that is totally legal to do to your kids

[Barb_]

Those of you who don't punish, what do you do when your child outright refuses to do school work? What if you ask him to do one job and he goes nuts, yelling and calling you an idiot and looking like he's about to attack you? What of he explodes about something minor and you bring him to his room to calm down, and he stands there kicking the door and yelling that he hates you? I like the idea of gentle discipline, but I don't see how it can work with an explosive kid who is short on empathy and rarely apologizes unless prompted. Talking and guiding doesn't seem to make much difference. If anyone can share how they successfully dealt with a child like this, I'd like to read it.

 

I'll give an example from breakfast today. The boys have to clean up the playroom before breakfast. We finished and went downstairs. Little Guy and I were eating and Tigger came down. He had food at the table that he liked, but apparently he thought it was for me. He never asked where his food was, he just went straight to yelling about how hungry he was. He then took a stuffed animal and hit his brother in the head with it several times. When he's like this, usually little we say gets through. Finally, after several minutes of fit throwing and me trying to point out he had food, he calmed down enough to sit down and eat. How would a gentle discipline parent deal with this kind of irrational behavior?

 

Thankfully, my second actually notices how people feel and is generally cheerful. Gentle discipline methods would probably be sufficient for him. I can't tell if he is an easy kid, or just average and appears easy in comparison.

 

You don't say how old he is, but I suspect he's young?  This is exactly how my difficult child was at around age 2-4.  I feel your pain.

[alef]

I guess some would see removal of electronics (my son's love) as a punishment. I see it as his choice though.

Ah, but how does your son see it?

 

I think there is a lot of cross-communication happening in this thread. If I put my tantruming daughter in her bedroom and close the door so that she doesn't kick and scratch other family members, am I punishing, disciplining, enforcing boundaries, applying natural consequences, or??? I think it depends on the perspective of the person and on their particular associations with a word or phrase. Whatever it is, my daughter seems to view it as completely unjust!

 

Parenting is challenging and confusing. I think each of us on this board is doing the best we can, working within the constraints of our own experience and wisdom and with the particular children we have charge over. We have not walked in one another's shoes, and are not equipped to judge each other's circumstances. This board provides a truly amazing range of experience and insight that can be beneficial to all of us when we interact with thoughtfulness and respect.

[mytwomonkeys]

Ah, but how does your son see it?

 

I think there is a lot of cross-communication happening in this thread. If I put my tantruming daughter in her bedroom and close the door so that she doesn't kick and scratch other family members, am I punishing, disciplining, enforcing boundaries, applying natural consequences, or??? I think it depends on the perspective of the person and on their particular associations with a word or phrase. Whatever it is, my daughter seems to view it as completely unjust!

 

Parenting is challenging and confusing. I think each of us on this board is doing the best we can, working within the constraints of our own experience and wisdom and with the particular children we have charge over. We have not walked in one another's shoes, and are not equipped to judge each other's circumstances. This board provides a truly amazing range of experience and insight that can be beneficial to all of us when we interact with thoughtfulness and respect.

My son homeschools. If he ever wants to attend public school, I totally support that. My daughter is in middle school this year and loving it! We don't "not-school" though. That is not an option at all, regardless of how my son feels. So if he were to refuse to do school, he would lose privileges. And that is definitely his choice. Not to mention, he sits in his pajamas, eating food & cuddling me during school. I hardly feel bad for my little guy.

 

I agree that semantics is at play in this thread.

[PeacefulChaos]

With respect, I've said a number of times now that it's up to each family to parent in the way that works for them (within reason).

 

All I am sharing is my experience of not using punishment as a discipline technique. No more, no less.

 

If you are doing what works for you, why does it bother you that I share what works for me ?

 

There are methods of punishment I do find abusive. I don't think they've been mentioned in this thread and I deliberately haven't gone there.

This feels very circular to me and I feel that it's becoming a waste of my time, but I'm just strong willed enough to feel like I have to say this:

 

I never said you sharing bothered me.

 

I said it bothered me for punishment to be equaled to threats and coercion.

I said it bothered me for Christianity to immediately equal abusers.

 

To a lesser extent which I probably would never have noticed were it not for the above two things already coloring my judgment, I said it bothered me in some posts where it was implied that unpunished children can be that way because they are a joy (leaving the unspoken opposite).  I don't have any idea who said that.  I really don't care, tbh.  I guess I was just trying to point out that, like one of the above posters, I think a lot of people are reading things that aren't there or misunderstanding.  

Non-punishers feel misunderstood because they do manage to raise 'good' children without having to discipline in the traditional manners - removing privileges and whatnot; they don't just let their kids do whatever they want.  

Etc.

 

On a side note, I do know a family who pays their kids to behave.  Seriously - maybe some think that works, Idk.  I think that is just about the most non-genuine form of discipline I can imagine... :D  I only paid my kids to be good at the doctor's office when they were small, and the payment was ice cream. ;)  In the end, maybe it will work for them, who knows?  But punish, not punish, whatever, as long as it's done within reason, like you said, I really don't care how others do it in a personal sense.  I hope everyone is trying to raise kids that are going to be good adults.  That's all.  

I just don't like the labels that get thrown around.  That's all.

[mytwomonkeys]

Some of it is semantics but some if it is parenting from a different paradigm.

 

I don't use different words for 'loss of privileges' or 'grounding' or 'time out'. They literally don't exist for us.

 

But you give consequences, whether natural or logical -- so discipline exist. Saying a child loses privileges isn't negative for my family, so sharing about it doesn't bother me.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Some of it is semantics but some if it is parenting from a different paradigm.

 

I don't use different words for 'loss of privileges' or 'grounding' or 'time out'. They literally don't exist for us.

But they don't exist for you in part because, as you have said, you have not had to deal with certain behaviors. That has nothing to do with "parenting from a different paradigm" and everything to do with parenting different kids.

 

I also have nice kids. I am very close to each of them. We talk and talk and talk and talk and talk... If anything, I am probably guilty of being too warm and fuzzy about things with them. LOL But, that kid mentioned upthread, the one who actually craves limits and gives me grief by testing them (aka not minding, misbehavior, defiance, whatever anyone wants to call it)? I have one of those kids. And it has nothing to do with a lack of talking or connection or a different parenting paradigm.

 

Really, I hear you saying that everyone must parent as they need to parent for their particular situation, and I am sure none of the "non-punishers" means for their words to come off as condescending, but it reads to some of us like my little angels are such perfect darlings and we are so in tune with each other that I couldn't possibly imagine having such hooligans as would require greater firmness than a chat or a hug. I hear you saying it isn't so, but it feels icky. And I am not so much mad or offended as exasperated, because this conversation doesn't even make sense if we can't all try to imagine walking in other parents' shoes.

 

My kids are awesome, but they defy the heck out of me sometimes. I mean, today was A Day!

[mytwomonkeys]

I don't 'give' natural consequences. Lol. They just happen :)

 

I think if you've (general) determined some level of coercion/punishment works for you (general) then, great. But own it for what it is.

 

It simply isn't the same as what I do or some of the other moms in this thread do.

 

It's really interesting, this thread. First there was the 'don't be so serious' reaction. Then the 'if you don't punish and your kids behave you're either lying or lucky' reaction. Now the 'we're all just talking about the same thing' reaction.

 

We're discussing some very real differences in his we perceive our children and our own role in their lives.

 

Personally, I think that is very interesting.

I thought I "owned it" pretty well.

 

I think it's a bit arrogant of you to say we perceive our children differently. I've given you the benefit of the doubt that you love your children and respect them. Please do the same for me.

[Tammi K]

Some of it is semantics but some if it is parenting from a different paradigm.

 

I don't use different words for 'loss of privileges' or 'grounding' or 'time out'. They literally don't exist for us.

 

:iagree:  It's the same here.

 

A pp mentioned that if her child doesn't do school work he loses privileges.  If you choose to, you can look at this differently. Similar result, different perspective.....In our home, school gets finished before you are able to move on to: computer/video games/beating your brother with nerf swords) .  No nagging, no scolding, no coercion.  DS: "Mom, can I watch a movie with Jake?  Me:"I don't know. Let me see your checklist. Hmmmm, doesn't look like you did math yet. Go finish up and then you can watch."  I don't 'take away' anything. I just set the expectation that you can't move on to leisure time pursuits until you've accomplished the task at hand.

 

Or, Me: "Hey guys, you need to leave for (fill in the blank) in an hour. Make sure you have everything finished so you can head out the door when I'm ready to leave."    Sometimes a child stays behind missing an event. Other times I might hear a petition to finish later because s/he ran into a legitimate snag. Either way, no punishment just the expectation that you get your school work done before you move on to leisure time. By the same token, I have been know to call out a fare-well as I head out the door and have had dawdling kiddos run outside barefoot as I back down the driveway. (I like a punctual child! Tardiness is a major pet peeve.) I'm never arbitrary and I almost always give a warning but my youngest are 13 and 16 so I believe they are capable of being ready on time.  No nagging, no recrimination - when it's time to go, I go and if you're ready you come along.

 

A different example - DD is 16. Kids can get a learner's permit at 14. She had no desire to do so at that age. We hoped she would eventually change her mind,  but, she hasn't. It didn't matter too much because she would have still needed to wait until she was 16 to get her license. However, now that she is 16, I am ready for her to assume some of her own transportation needs. A recent conversation went like this: "I would like you to prepare for your permit test so you can have you license by the end of summer so you can drive yourself to classes next year." (She wants to take some college classes) A few weeks later she still hadn't studied the book. "Hey, kiddo, we are going to the DMV in two weeks so you can take your test. If you pass, I'll pay the permit fee. If you don't pass, we'll come back again in another two weeks, but then it will be on your dime. "  I've seen her with the book on several occasions lately.  The choice is hers. Get it done and I pay or choose to procrastinate and it comes out of your pocket. Ultimately, if she doesn't have her license by fall, she'll forfeit the class she wants to take. Either way, I don't see this as a punishment.

 

I have nothing to add on the hitting a sibling with a stick (although I can discuss, in length, the proper technique to whack your brother with a nefr sword- but that is always consensual) because my kids really get along well. In fact, just recently I said to the youngest two that I've never, ever seen them fight, in fact, I've never seen them be angry with one another, and I wondered if they ever did. They looked at each other, thought a minute, shrugged and both said, "No, I don't think so."

 

So, I wonder if those of us who say we 'don't punish' just chose to look at the structure of our life in a different way. The result is the same but it comes from a different perspective.

[Mom in High Heels]

We "take privileges away," I suppose some would call it, but I see the loss of those privileges as his *choice.*  Indy knows what's expected of him.  He knows that if he can't watch TV until he's done with school.  If he chooses to goof off and take his sweet time finishing school, then he *chose* not to have TV, and I don't care if a new episode of whatever is coming on; he knew it was coming on, knew what time, and knew what he had to complete in order to be finished with enough time to watch it.  If there's a legitimate reason (and sometimes there are, because the subject is causing problems and he has to spend extra time figuring it out), then I'll allow him to record it and watch it later, but if it's just for dawdling (I love that word!), then no, he can't record it and watch it later.   He knows he can't play video games during the week, and that if he wants them on the weekends, he needs to do XY and Z; if he doesn't do XY and Z (which again, he clearly knows he has to do), then he's choosing to not play video games.  Is that us punishing him?   I'm sure he sees it as punishment, but it's just how things work. When I was a teen, I had a job, so I could pay for my fun stuff, buy things I wanted and put gas in my car.  If I didn't go to my job, I didn't get paid, which meant I didn't get to do/buy the things that I wanted.  I was not being punished, I was choosing to do something else instead of going to work.  Expectations were clear, and I could choose to follow them or not.  If I didn't follow them, I didn't get my "privilege" (pay in this case).  It's the same for him.  Even if I take something away (which is rare), it's because he has chosen to do something other than what he clearly knows he should do, and thus lost the right to have/do whatever it was I took away.  

FTR, we have never spanked him, and he's a terrific kid.  There are days when I can't believe he's so good.  Of course there are days when I could cheerfully strangle him, but thankfully those days are few and far between.  Indy's never really been a boundary pusher, but I can see that Han Solo will be.  What we'll do for him, I'm not sure, but I know we won't spank him.  You have to do what works for you, and know that no one else lives your life with your children.

 

ETA:  We have told him that if he doesn't listen to us, or do what he's expected to, we'll dance in front of his friends.  I like to follow that up with a demonstration of said dancing (JB joins in on the demonstration if he's around), and I have actually done it once in front of his friend (I used my sweet, sweet moves!), and that's about all it takes to get him to listen.  ;)  BTW, said friend was his BFF in Germany, and they practically lived at each others' houses, so BFF knew me well enough, and Indy was only slightly humiliated.  BFF said he thought is was kind of awesome and said he hoped I never told him parents about it, because he did not want to have them dance in front of everyone.  Of course I told them.  

[SKL]

People are making such a fuss about a word.

 

I don't believe there is anyone on this board whose kids have never felt chastened by something their parent decided in reaction to bad behavior.

 

Call it what you want.

 

I prefer to not waste time and just call it either "consequences" or "punishment" as I do in everyday life with my kids.

 

FWIW, I did not get the impression in *this thread* that the so-called "non-punishers" were trying to say that is the reason their kids are such lovely people.  I read those comments as more of a defensive "now don't accuse me of raising undisciplined hooligans."  However, there have been other discussions where people have implied that "punishing" kids makes them less pleasant to be around, hence the defensiveness of the other side.

 

My kids are lovely too, except when they aren't.  :P  I am not planning to spend the rest of my life worrying about whether I should regret consequencing my kids.  There are better uses of my emotional energy.

[susankenny]

:iagree: It's the same here.

 

A pp mentioned that if her child doesn't do school work he loses privileges. If you choose to, you can look at this differently. Similar result, different perspective.....In our home, school gets finished before you are able to move on to: computer/video games/beating your brother with nerf swords) . No nagging, no scolding, no coercion. DS: "Mom, can I watch a movie with Jake? Me:"I don't know. Let me see your checklist. Hmmmm, doesn't look like you did math yet. Go finish up and then you can watch." I don't 'take away' anything. I just set the expectation that you can't move on to leisure time pursuits until you've accomplished the task at hand.

 

Or, Me: "Hey guys, you need to leave for (fill in the blank) in an hour. Make sure you have everything finished so you can head out the door when I'm ready to leave." Sometimes a child stays behind missing an event. Other times I might hear a petition to finish later because s/he ran into a legitimate snag. Either way, no punishment just the expectation that you get your school work done before you move on to leisure time. By the same token, I have been know to call out a fare-well as I head out the door and have had dawdling kiddos run outside barefoot as I back down the driveway. (I like a punctual child! Tardiness is a major pet peeve.) I'm never arbitrary and I almost always give a warning but my youngest are 13 and 16 so I believe they are capable of being ready on time. No nagging, no recrimination - when it's time to go, I go and if you're ready you come along.

 

A different example - DD is 16. Kids can get a learner's permit at 14. She had no desire to do so at that age. We hoped she would eventually change her mind, but, she hasn't. It didn't matter too much because she would have still needed to wait until she was 16 to get her license. However, now that she is 16, I am ready for her to assume some of her own transportation needs. A recent conversation went like this: "I would like you to prepare for your permit test so you can have you license by the end of summer so you can drive yourself to classes next year." (She wants to take some college classes) A few weeks later she still hadn't studied the book. "Hey, kiddo, we are going to the DMV in two weeks so you can take your test. If you pass, I'll pay the permit fee. If you don't pass, we'll come back again in another two weeks, but then it will be on your dime. " I've seen her with the book on several occasions lately. The choice is hers. Get it done and I pay or choose to procrastinate and it comes out of your pocket. Ultimately, if she doesn't have her license by fall, she'll forfeit the class she wants to take. Either way, I don't see this as a punishment.

 

I have nothing to add on the hitting a sibling with a stick (although I can discuss, in length, the proper technique to whack your brother with a nefr sword- but that is always consensual) because my kids really get along well. In fact, just recently I said to the youngest two that I've never, ever seen them fight, in fact, I've never seen them be angry with one another, and I wondered if they ever did. They looked at each other, thought a minute, shrugged and both said, "No, I don't think so."

 

So, I wonder if those of us who say we 'don't punish' just chose to look at the structure of our life in a different way. The result is the same but it comes from a different perspective.

But the poster didn't say it was a power struggle that involved nagging. She simply said her son would be given a choice. Not so different than you.

 

I found Sadie's comment to be personal to the posters of this thread too, and not a generalized statement - but specific to those here.

 

Respect and honor is a two-way street. If my child has a fit, he is not respecting me with his behavior or words at all. Therefore, telling him to go to his room until he can treat me the way I treat him is indeed a consequence. His privilege to freely roam the house was temporarily revoked. It is not unkind to respond in a way that says, "You cannot treat me this way".

 

If your kids never misbehave, you can't really say what works because the truth is you don't know how you might respond with a strong willed child. My middle child is not like my others. Temperments differ among people.

 

Susan

[PeacefulChaos]

I don't 'give' natural consequences. Lol. They just happen :)

 

 

:lol: I think that's an oxymoron of sorts - one can't give natural consequences anyway, can they?  

:iagree:  It's the same here.

 

A pp mentioned that if her child doesn't do school work he loses privileges.  If you choose to, you can look at this differently. Similar result, different perspective.....In our home, school gets finished before you are able to move on to: computer/video games/beating your brother with nerf swords) .  No nagging, no scolding, no coercion.  DS: "Mom, can I watch a movie with Jake?  Me:"I don't know. Let me see your checklist. Hmmmm, doesn't look like you did math yet. Go finish up and then you can watch."  I don't 'take away' anything. I just set the expectation that you can't move on to leisure time pursuits until you've accomplished the task at hand.

 

Or, Me: "Hey guys, you need to leave for (fill in the blank) in an hour. Make sure you have everything finished so you can head out the door when I'm ready to leave."    Sometimes a child stays behind missing an event. Other times I might hear a petition to finish later because s/he ran into a legitimate snag. Either way, no punishment just the expectation that you get your school work done before you move on to leisure time. By the same token, I have been know to call out a fare-well as I head out the door and have had dawdling kiddos run outside barefoot as I back down the driveway. (I like a punctual child! Tardiness is a major pet peeve.) I'm never arbitrary and I almost always give a warning but my youngest are 13 and 16 so I believe they are capable of being ready on time.  No nagging, no recrimination - when it's time to go, I go and if you're ready you come along.

 

A different example - DD is 16. Kids can get a learner's permit at 14. She had no desire to do so at that age. We hoped she would eventually change her mind,  but, she hasn't. It didn't matter too much because she would have still needed to wait until she was 16 to get her license. However, now that she is 16, I am ready for her to assume some of her own transportation needs. A recent conversation went like this: "I would like you to prepare for your permit test so you can have you license by the end of summer so you can drive yourself to classes next year." (She wants to take some college classes) A few weeks later she still hadn't studied the book. "Hey, kiddo, we are going to the DMV in two weeks so you can take your test. If you pass, I'll pay the permit fee. If you don't pass, we'll come back again in another two weeks, but then it will be on your dime. "  I've seen her with the book on several occasions lately.  The choice is hers. Get it done and I pay or choose to procrastinate and it comes out of your pocket. Ultimately, if she doesn't have her license by fall, she'll forfeit the class she wants to take. Either way, I don't see this as a punishment.

 

I have nothing to add on the hitting a sibling with a stick (although I can discuss, in length, the proper technique to whack your brother with a nefr sword- but that is always consensual) because my kids really get along well. In fact, just recently I said to the youngest two that I've never, ever seen them fight, in fact, I've never seen them be angry with one another, and I wondered if they ever did. They looked at each other, thought a minute, shrugged and both said, "No, I don't think so."

 

So, I wonder if those of us who say we 'don't punish' just chose to look at the structure of our life in a different way. The result is the same but it comes from a different perspective.

This post is interesting to me.  

I guess because it really does seem like several posters are all talking about the exact same thing, particularly when it comes to regular daily life (such as a standing 'rule', for lack of a better word, that we just don't play video games until after dinner.  Kids don't have to be reminded of this, they don't even ask - it's just the way life is in the house.  No coercion or such involved.  If a kid were to say, 'Can I play a game in your room?' the answer would be 'After dinner.'  To me, that isn't coercion.  Perhaps others see it differently?)

Granted, I don't consider standing ways that our house just naturally runs to be a consequence or a punishment of anything.  So something like what I just stated really doesn't even fall into the category that we're talking about.  

 

To me, a 'punishment' is 'You were getting beat in your fight on your video game so you were mad and you turned and screamed at your sister when she walked in the room, so you have to turn the video game off for the day.'  Specific things like that.  Call me crazy, but I see no coercion or ill will in removing the thing that was frustrating the child and sending them to do something else when it is affecting their attitude that way.

 

I understand not everyone agrees with the method, but I would at least think we can all agree that such things don't involve any sort of threats toward the kid.  IMNSHO, the punishment should fit the crime, and many times natural consequences will happen that will take care of it - others, I have to, as the parent, step in.  And I'm ok with that.  :)

[Guest]

This is challenging because I cannot multi-quote at the moment, so this may seem scattered.

 

First, I am one who self-describes as a non-punisher, but also describes my kids as a joy. I fully agree that kids are all different and some are baffling, difficult and require a totally different strategy from other "easy" kids. I forget which poster it was now ( maybe Barb?) but she described a child who constantly pushed the boundaries, even when the consequence was totally clear. This is how my youngest was. I truly thought there was something wrong with him until he was around 4. It was so strange to me that he could go ballistic about routine things that he " should" have long since accepted. Every transition was misery for him, even with advanced warning. I asked the doctor, how is it that he STILL melts down about having to take a bath, when I consistently prove to him that a bath is inevitable?

 

Someone upthread spoke about special options - this was a problem for said child, too. If he had a donut for breakfast once when we were on vacation, he behaved as if he should have one every morning now forever! ;) I have drawn the conclusion that this child is very sensitive to order and it takes him much longer to accept a boundary. I did attempt many punishments when he was a toddler. I was baffled by his behavior and fearful that he would become a criminal! It was clear to me, though, that any punishment was totally counter-productive. It simply made our days full of constant adversity. If I spanked him, he laghed in my face. If i put him in time-out, he was heading for time-out every 15 minutes all day. I was terribly frustrated in threads exactly like this one on the Crunchy-Kind Mothers site. ( not the actual name. ;))

 

I found (through doctors and neurologists) a few little tools that helped. One, I began to spend a good, focused 30 minutes to an hour playing directly with him in the morning. We would sit on the floor and do wooden trains or cars. He needed this relationship connection before I was off involved with schooling the big kids. Two, high protein breakfast, fewer carbs. Three, gobs of patience - he will not be 4 forever. Four, give that kid a JOB. This was the big surprise I learned from the neurologist. He does amazingly well if he is given a meaningful job to do. The more I gave him meaningful things to do, the better he behaved.

 

I don't know how much was just luck and how much is a direct result of our choices. Nobody can parse that out for sure. But what I do know is that kid was not naturally docile and easy. When he was 5, i was telling a co-op teacher that he was so difficult when he was little and she was shocked! "Are you talking about this child? Reaally?" I still see his need for structure and he still doesn't adjust easily -EVERY Monday, he drags his feet on schoolwork again. The weekend makes him feel he's on some fun new program where we sleep later and don't do English. ;) Nevertheless, no punishment is necessary. I say something like, " i know, it's hard to get back to work when you've been off for a couple days. I don't like it either, but that's just life. Now, let's look at your math page..."

[mommymilkies]

Obviously some of us touched a nerve.  I did not mean to, nor did I mean to imply my parenting was better.  I thought I covered that by showing that my children are certainly not angels and the things we have gone through.  Specifics on how non-punitive parenting worked were requested.  I replied how it works for us. I never implied that people who ground or whatever are child abusers, either.  I think people are reading far too much into what isn't written.  I think everyone needs to chillax.  

[SKL]

I did attempt many punishments when he was a toddler. I was baffled by his behavior and fearful that he would become a criminal! It was clear to me, though, that any punishment was totally counter-productive. It simply made our days full of constant adversity. If I spanked him, he laghed in my face. If i put him in time-out, he was heading for time-out every 15 minutes all day....

 

This is a bit extreme, as I'm sure you'd agree.

 

If my child does not respond to "punishment," I too conclude that another approach is necessary.

 

But many children respond immediately and permanently to relatively mild "punishment."  So if you have that kind of child, one who reprograms after one or two decisive corrections, so neither the parent nor the child ever has to revisit that issue again, and everyone ends up happier, maybe a little "punishment" is a better choice for that child in that circumstance.

 

People mentioned hitting.  My eldest hit to hurt/control her sister once when she was 1.5.  I punished.  It never happened again.  And the little sister also never picked up on the idea of hitting.  Lovely that I never had to worry about that particular discipline issue after dealing decisively with one minor incident.  That said, other issues do not respond to the same kind of discipline.  And I have a child with a really strange sensory situation - she can turn pain (physical and emotional) on and off.  I have to discipline her very carefully.  But "punishment" is not entirely off the table.

 

Moms just have to be alert to what works for their kid.  This is a million times more important than what other people do and say.

 

[mytwomonkeys]

This is challenging because I cannot multi-quote at the moment, so this may seem scattered.

 

First, I am one who self-describes as a non-punisher, but also describes my kids as a joy. I fully agree that kids are all different and some are baffling, difficult and require a totally different strategy from other "easy" kids. I forget which poster it was now ( maybe Barb?) but she described a child who constantly pushed the boundaries, even when the consequence was totally clear. This is how my youngest was. I truly thought there was something wrong with him until he was around 4. It was so strange to me that he could go ballistic about routine things that he " should" have long since accepted. Every transition was misery for him, even with advanced warning. I asked the doctor, how is it that he STILL melts down about having to take a bath, when I consistently prove to him that a bath is inevitable?

 

Someone upthread spoke about special options - this was a problem for said child, too. If he had a donut for breakfast once when we were on vacation, he behaved as if he should have one every morning now forever! ;) I have drawn the conclusion that this child is very sensitive to order and it takes him much longer to accept a boundary. I did attempt many punishments when he was a toddler. I was baffled by his behavior and fearful that he would become a criminal! It was clear to me, though, that any punishment was totally counter-productive. It simply made our days full of constant adversity. If I spanked him, he laghed in my face. If i put him in time-out, he was heading for time-out every 15 minutes all day. I was terribly frustrated in threads exactly like this one on the Crunchy-Kind Mothers site. ( not the actual name. ;))

 

I found (through doctors and neurologists) a few little tools that helped. One, I began to spend a good, focused 30 minutes to an hour playing directly with him in the morning. We would sit on the floor and do wooden trains or cars. He needed this relationship connection before I was off involved with schooling the big kids. Two, high protein breakfast, fewer carbs. Three, gobs of patience - he will not be 4 forever. Four, give that kid a JOB. This was the big surprise I learned from the neurologist. He does amazingly well if he is given a meaningful job to do. The more I gave him meaningful things to do, the better he behaved.

 

I don't know how much was just luck and how much is a direct result of our choices. Nobody can parse that out for sure. But what I do know is that kid was not naturally docile and easy. When he was 5, i was telling a co-op teacher that he was so difficult when he was little and she was shocked! "Are you talking about this child? Reaally?" I still see his need for structure and he still doesn't adjust easily -EVERY Monday, he drags his feet on schoolwork again. The weekend makes him feel he's on some fun new program where we sleep later and don't do English. ;) Nevertheless, no punishment is necessary. I say something like, " i know, it's hard to get back to work when you've been off for a couple days. I don't like it either, but that's just life. Now, let's look at your math page..."

I loved this post, Quill. You perfectly described my own little boy. And for what it's worth - he is a joy too :) Both of my kids are really quite amazing. My son's personality could not be any more polar opposite from my daughter though. Learning to understand what works best with him has been such a process.

 

Although we've never spanked, I do remember thinking, "What is wrong with this child?" He was only a toddler and could get so angry & inconsolable. I went to another board (probably the same crunchy mama gentle discipline forums you did, lol) and I learned through suggestions, experience, and book recommendations how to handle my son. When I give him choices, I am giving him control of the situation. It isn't meant to be punitive. This has been a learned process for him to grasp that he can choose the outcome. Perhaps I'm not communicating that well to others here. Which isn't a big deal I suppose.

 

I truly am doing my best to raise an amazing man. My goal is never mere "compliance", but to truly empower my little guy to be in control of his own body, and to live in harmony with one another. Our family can't revolve around my son's moods. So sometimes he simply has to suck it up and go with the flow. When at all possible though, I do try to help him. I know his triggers, and thank God, as he is getting older he is such an improved child. He still needs rest, protein, a schedule, transition warnings -- BUT he doesn't have a meltdown when those things don't always work out. With maturity, he is becoming reasonable when he is upset. When he was younger, he was never (ever) reasonable until he calmed down.

 

I don't think anyone would peg him for having anger issues now, ever. But I think that has been a journey to get to this point & I think he is still learning everyday. As am I :)

[Guest]

This is a bit extreme, as I'm sure you'd agree.

 

If my child does not respond to "punishment," I too conclude that another approach is necessary.

 

But many children respond immediately and permanently to relatively mild "punishment." So if you have that kind of child, one who reprograms after one or two decisive corrections, so neither the parent nor the child ever has to revisit that issue again, and everyone ends up happier, maybe a little "punishment" is a better choice for that child in that circumstance.

 

People mentioned hitting. My eldest hit to hurt/control her sister once when she was 1.5. I punished. It never happened again. And the little sister also never picked up on the idea of hitting. Lovely that I never had to worry about that particular discipline issue after dealing decisively with one minor incident. That said, other issues do not respond to the same kind of discipline. And I have a child with a really strange sensory situation - she can turn pain (physical and emotional) on and off. I have to discipline her very carefully. But "punishment" is not entirely off the table.

 

Moms just have to be alert to what works for their kid. This is a million times more important than what other people do and say.

 

I'm not sure of your meaning in saying it was extreme. I'm not sure if you're saying i was being extremely punitive if i had to punish him so much, or that he was extremely badly behaved if he needed so much punishment or that I must be exaggerating now as I'm reporting it.

 

If you mean it was extremely punitive of me - that is the point. That's why I (and dh) concluded that punishments were not effecting change (not positive behavioral change) in him. I have a grown nephew who was similar as a child and his interactions with his mom have continued to be adversarial and lacking in respect ( mutually). I did not want it to be this way with ds. Sil was always punitive with her boy and I felt that he was always seething. I could see the potential for us to go the same way.

 

Clearly, some kids quickly shape to desired behavior whether a punishment is harsh, mild or non-existant. But my feeling is, if they can be corrected non-punitively, wouldn't that be preferable?

[unsinkable]

 

 

If your kids never misbehave, you can't really say what works because the truth is you don't know how you might respond with a strong willed child. My middle child is not like my others. Temperments differ among people.

 

Susan

That is a good question and I suppose people say they don't think of their child as misbehaving. So if their child colors on the wall, that is not misbehaving. It is an inappropriate use of crayons. And if they stop the child from coloring, that's not punishment. It's redirection. And if they tell the child, they need his help cleaning the crayon off the wall, that is called helping with the family chores.

[Guest]

That is a good question and I suppose people say they don't think of their child as misbehaving. So if their child colors on the wall, that is not misbehaving. It is an inappropriate use of crayons. And if they stop the child from coloring, that's not punishment. It's redirection. And if they tell the child, they need his help cleaning the crayon off the wall, that is called helping with the family chores.

Wrong. I would wonder what fool put the crayons down where the kid could use them unsupervised. ;)

 

P.S. None of my kids ever colored on the wall. ;)

[Joker]

Wrong. I would wonder what fool put the crayons down where the kid could use them unsupervised. ;)

 

P.S. None of my kids ever colored on the wall. ;)

 

My oldest did once because she wanted to be like Barbie in Rapunzel. I remember thinking I should have seen that one coming since this was the same child that colored herself green (with a marker) because she wanted to fly like Peter Pan. She did both of those things in the amount of time it took me to take her younger sister to the bathroom to wash her hands. I never thought of it as misbehaving since she was so young. I laughed it off, took a picture, and she helped clean up.

 

We used to punish oldest but it did zero good. So, we switched to what many here are describing. I wouldn't say we punish anymore. Although, in the grounding thread I did so oldest missed out on two sleepovers due to attitude. She is always given a chance to think it over, calm down, and start over, but there have been two times where she kept up with the attitude and lost out on something. She said both times she should have missed out and she was sorry. Youngest is the probably the easiest child ever and has never had anything more than a look thrown her way. She just always seems to do the right thing, but she's only 11 so that might change.

[unsinkable]

Wrong. I would wonder what fool put the crayons down where the kid could use them unsupervised. ;)

 

P.S. None of my kids ever colored on the wall. ;)

So anyone whose child uses something in an inappropriate manner is a fool.

[SKL]

I'm not sure of your meaning in saying it was extreme. I'm not sure if you're saying i was being extremely punitive if i had to punish him so much, or that he was extremely badly behaved if he needed so much punishment or that I must be exaggerating now as I'm reporting it.

 

If you mean it was extremely punitive of me - that is the point. That's why I (and dh) concluded that punishments were not effecting change (not positive behavioral change) in him. I have a grown nephew who was similar as a child and his interactions with his mom have continued to be adversarial and lacking in respect ( mutually). I did not want it to be this way with ds. Sil was always punitive with her boy and I felt that he was always seething. I could see the potential for us to go the same way.

 

Clearly, some kids quickly shape to desired behavior whether a punishment is harsh, mild or non-existant. But my feeling is, if they can be corrected non-punitively, wouldn't that be preferable?

 

By "extreme," I meant it is very unusual for a child to respond that way to punishment.

 

To your last question, if I can fix a problem in one second with a punishment, I think that is preferable to spending a bunch of time "correcting non-punitively."  I think reasonable minds can differ on this.  In my parenting years, I've seen people endlessly struggling with issues we put behind us years earlier.  Some may think that is kinder to the child, but I feel differently.

 

Obviously I correct non-punitively most of the time, like every other parent.  But I have no problem occasionally giving consequences to make more of an impression.  As I said, I'd stop doing it if it seemed counterproductive, but that isn't generally the case.

 

[SKL]

I did have a problem with Miss E when she was 3.  I got to the point where I felt I was punishing too often.  I knew I needed a new approach.  I asked around and someone recommended a book, which was helpful.  I was able to use a different approach to keep things mellow while guiding behavior, but I still kept "punishment" as a backup tool.

[mommymilkies]

Wrong. I would wonder what fool put the crayons down where the kid could use them unsupervised. ;)

 

P.S. None of my kids ever colored on the wall. ;)

:lol:  My 4th child was quite the artist.  Drove me mad.  When child #5 did it, I had to actually remove all pens and markers from anywhere she could possibly find them and gave her special crayons and special books.  They also got to help use magic erasers to fix their errors.  Consequences, not punishment in that case. ;) I think people are arguing semantics a lot at this point.  I think most of us are talking about the same thing, but consider it to mean different words. 

[Guest]

So anyone whose child uses something in an inappropriate manner is a fool.

Sink, that's quite the logical leap, don't you think? Look, I was being light-hearted.

 

I really don't think it is a semantic argument. Maybe in some cases people are arguing the same point with different words. But IMO, "punishment" has a retribution attached to it that makes it not the same thing. Even the title of this thread speaks to that. "...legal to DO TO your kids" If my son spoke to me in a mean way, I would not ignore it and it would definitely be addressed. But I would address it verbally, just as I would if my DH said something mean to me. There would be no, "What should I DO to make him PAY for being mean?" Having said that, my kids almost never say mean things to me. I treat them with respect and they treat me the same in return. I cannot imagine my child calling me an idiot and I also cannot imagine calling one an idiot myself. Is that why? I am not certain, but I'm sure it helps.

[Guest]

By "extreme," I meant it is very unusual for a child to respond that way to punishment.

 

To your last question, if I can fix a problem in one second with a punishment, I think that is preferable to spending a bunch of time "correcting non-punitively." I think reasonable minds can differ on this. In my parenting years, I've seen people endlessly struggling with issues we put behind us years earlier. Some may think that is kinder to the child, but I feel differently.

 

Obviously I correct non-punitively most of the time, like every other parent. But I have no problem occasionally giving consequences to make more of an impression. As I said, I'd stop doing it if it seemed counterproductive, but that isn't generally the case.

 

Yes, it was unusual. That was what was so maddening about coping with him at that age. That was why I took him to Kennedy Kreiger for an evaluation; that was why he was tested multiple times for allergies, celiacs, diabetes and more. It took an enormous number of repeats for him to understand that certain things were going to happen, tantrum or no.

 

I do totally hear you on "one effective correction vs. a bunch of endless non-punitive corrections." I am a very practical mother. I'm not going to put up with endless nonsense. This is exactly why I resorted to " classic" punishments with my youngest ds when he was insane (lol). Problem is, classic punishments were no better as I've said, and what is more, they made things worse. If we're talking about an easy-breezy kid, like my DD, it is true she probably would have responded in the desired way after one punishment, BUT she is also so easy that one punishment was unnecessary.

[SKL]

I do totally hear you on "one effective correction vs. a bunch of endless non-punitive corrections." I am a very practical mother. I'm not going to put up with endless nonsense. This is exactly why I resorted to " classic" punishments with my youngest ds when he was insane (lol). Problem is, classic punishments were no better as I've said, and what is more, they made things worse. If we're talking about an easy-breezy kid, like my DD, it is true she probably would have responded in the desired way after one punishment, BUT she is also so easy that one punishment was unnecessary.

 

I absolutely believe you.  My kids, like most, are in-between.  Relatively easy, but not "that" easy.  :)

 

As a general comment, I am not sure what sort of tone I'm setting here.  Perhaps I come across like a militant mom.  In fact, I have not "punished" anyone for a while.  My youngest, definitely not since some time last year.  My eldest, a couple of momentary or short-term punishments this year so far.  A few natural consequences here and there; a few times I've talked in an exasperated voice; but generally it's not exactly boot camp over here.  Just because I believe punishment has a place does not mean it defines our life.

 

[Guest]

I absolutely believe you. My kids, like most, are in-between. Relatively easy, but not "that" easy. :)

 

As a general comment, I am not sure what sort of tone I'm setting here. Perhaps I come across like a militant mom. In fact, I have not "punished" anyone for a while. My youngest, definitely not since some time last year. My eldest, a couple of momentary or short-term punishments this year so far. A few natural consequences here and there; a few times I've talked in an exasperated voice; but generally it's not exactly boot camp over here. Just because I believe punishment has a place does not mean it defines our life.

 

You don't come off as militant to me. From other threads here, I think you and I are quite similar. At least, I know we both see no reason to change the bedsheets every few minutes and bawl about the endless laundry! ;) i do think

I have an Ace in the hole by having bio kids who have at least half the genes of a very peaceful, agreeable person - me! ;) i was a very " easy" kid by all accounts and, though both my parents and my school were highly punitive, I was very rarely in trouble. I have to assume at least 2 of my 3 kids are " easy" to begin with. But I do accept some credit for my baby boy. I had my worries. He behaves now better than I ever hoped in my dizziest daydream when he was 3. I do think we turned the ship around by getting some very fortunately sound advice on how to help him - clearly, we couldn't just beat him harder to make it matter and I'm delighted that we got advice that helped avoid that direction. At this very moment, my youngest ds is cleaning the baseboards in the hallway of his own accord. It has been on his job list for years and now he doesn't need d a job list. I guess this is turning his rigidity into an asset; now he "stubbornly insists" that this is his job for Saturday mornings!

[mytwomonkeys]

I absolutely believe you. My kids, like most, are in-between. Relatively easy, but not "that" easy. :)

 

As a general comment, I am not sure what sort of tone I'm setting here. Perhaps I come across like a militant mom. In fact, I have not "punished" anyone for a while. My youngest, definitely not since some time last year. My eldest, a couple of momentary or short-term punishments this year so far. A few natural consequences here and there; a few times I've talked in an exasperated voice; but generally it's not exactly boot camp over here. Just because I believe punishment has a place does not mean it defines our life.

 

No. I hear ya. Our house is really drama free and pretty peaceful. When talking about discipline, I'm highlighting issues and lumping scenarios. But it isn't a daily occurrence here. And it's hard to say I'm totally anti-punishment because I have had to play that card. But it isn't normal, nor preferred. And I also don't view punishment as totally horrible, it's basically the result of a negative behavior that resulted in a negative consequence. It beats me yelling at my kids or losing my cool. But again, I'm talking about circumstances that are rare, not the norm.

 

The most drama I've experience of late was my son balking at schoolwork. It was mentally taxing to debate with a nine year old about why school isn't optional. I actually threw my entire curriculum out the window and switched it all up. We are both happy now. Problem solved.

[alef]

Quill, your son sounds a lot like someone I know--me! My mom credits me with prompting her abandonment of spanking; I was spanked a lot but it obviously had no effect so she mostly didn't try with the younger kids. Neither rewards nor punishments really had an impact on me. Which is probably why I don't tend to rely on them in my own parenting. I frequently have to talk my husband down from the "this child is going to end up in jail" cliff (yea, one or two of our kids take after me, rules are invisible and the more pressure you put on them to go one way the faster they run the other way...) He is very rule oriented and thinks in his own life in terms of consequences and rewards, so it baffles him when a child obviously doesn't respond to such things.

[Audrey]

Habit is an awesome tool. I would be seriously lost without it. I'm so glad I came across CM when my kids were little :) I guess that's what the 'use words' things was...training in the habit of translating strong emotion into communication. I remember they also had an 'overflow' option when they were under 7 or 8 - when the emotions were just too strong to deal with cognitively, they could punch their pillows or thrash about on the bed :)

 

I agree.  Habits build expectations.  My kid's non-farm-kid friends think we're monster-parents for "making" him do farm chores.  He has toddled along with us doing chores since he was a wee one.  It's his daily habit.  It's something he knows needs to be done every day.  More often than not, when someone is lagging behind to sleep in, it is not ds.  :blush:

 

Same with school.  The schedule of school time hasn't really changed in 10 years.  The activities are much different, but the basic routine is the same.  So, that, too, is a habit.  I get little balking about school time.  I do get subject-specific whinging on occasion, but he knows that's quite useless by now because we're still going to do that subject anyway. 

 

I know my kid is an easy kid (at least, I think he is), but that's my kid, and that's the only one I've got.  I don't know, or frankly, much care what works for other parents with their own kids.  I don't know why anyone gets shirty about other people's parenting styles.  Short of abuse, it isn't anyone else's business, and even then, it's the legal system's business next, certainly not mine.

[Audrey]

Why does it have to be this?  Like seriously.  I read this and was like :001_huh: because punishment doesn't equal that.  Do some people cross the line?  Sure.  Tons of people cross various lines for various things.  

But I can't equate punishment with 'depending on threats and coercion'.  Seriously.  

Day cares all over the world would be in court all the time for having time out.  Time out is punishment.  

 

Between that and people immediately associating 'religion' with people abusing their kids, I really find myself wondering why I bothered jumping into the mix on this thread.  Sigh.  How overdramatic of me to think that, I know.   :p

 

But let me remind you (general) that most Christians do NOT, in fact, abuse their kids.  

and most punishment is NOT, in fact, coercion or threatening.

 

 

 

I've read the whole thread and, I could be mistaken, but I can't find where anyone else posting on the thread said the bolded except you.  Are you referring to the discussion in this thread, or other experiences you've had?

[PeacefulChaos]

I've read the whole thread and, I could be mistaken, but I can't find where anyone else posting on the thread said the bolded except you.  Are you referring to the discussion in this thread, or other experiences you've had?

 

It was just in regard to one of the posters who didn't want to click on the link because it was 'GodTube' (the existence of which makes me :ack2:, as well), IIRC.  I think they were thinking Pearl-type things, since they claim to be Christians, but I'm not sure.  

 

Honestly I read way too much of this late at night and way too sporadically (during commercial breaks lol) and now I don't really remember very well.  I could have even read it wrong, TBH.  Nothing in the last many posts has been anything I don't agree with.  

[zoobie]

It was just in regard to one of the posters who didn't want to click on the link because it was 'GodTube' (the existence of which makes me :ack2:, as well), IIRC. I think they were thinking Pearl-type things, since they claim to be Christians, but I'm not sure.

 

Honestly I read way too much of this late at night and way too sporadically (during commercial breaks lol) and now I don't really remember very well. I could have even read it wrong, TBH. Nothing in the last many posts has been anything I don't agree with.

I said that. The name of the link rings out as extremist, either waaaay fundamentalist or something mocking or derogatory. Websites make money when people click on them, and I don't click on blogs or sites that seem "off" to me because I don't want to give them money. I don't believe these extremist groups are representative of Christianity, nor do I think the majority of Christian parents discipline like the Pearls. These fringe groups definitely have made "Biblical parenting" sort of a dog whistle phrase that makes you wonder and think uh-oh, is this one of those beat your baby so it stays on a blanket groups? But that doesn't make me assume all Christian parents beat their children.

[mommymilkies]

I said that. The name of the link rings out as extremist, either waaaay fundamentalist or something mocking or derogatory. Websites make money when people click on them, and I don't click on blogs or sites that seem "off" to me because I don't want to give them money. I don't believe these extremist groups are representative of Christianity, nor do I think the majority of Christian parents discipline like the Pearls. These fringe groups definitely have made "Biblical parenting" sort of a dog whistle phrase that makes you wonder and think uh-oh, is this one of those beat your baby so it stays on a blanket groups? But that doesn't make me assume all Christian parents beat their children.

This.  A couple people actually said they weren't even going to click because of the site (I will have to double check).  I didn't see that as anti-religion or anti-Christian.  I think that was taken wayyyyyyyy out of context to find something to be offended at. 

[PeacefulChaos]

This.  A couple people actually said they weren't even going to click because of the site (I will have to double check).  I didn't see that as anti-religion or anti-Christian.  I think that was taken wayyyyyyyy out of context to find something to be offended at. 

 

Yes, I know.  I addressed that already.  :)  

 

 

Honestly I read way too much of this late at night and way too sporadically (during commercial breaks lol) and now I don't really remember very well.  I could have even read it wrong, TBH.  Nothing in the last many posts has been anything I don't agree with.  

[Audrey]

It was just in regard to one of the posters who didn't want to click on the link because it was 'GodTube' (the existence of which makes me :ack2:, as well), IIRC.  I think they were thinking Pearl-type things, since they claim to be Christians, but I'm not sure.  

 

Honestly I read way too much of this late at night and way too sporadically (during commercial breaks lol) and now I don't really remember very well.  I could have even read it wrong, TBH.  Nothing in the last many posts has been anything I don't agree with.  

 

 

Okay.  Thank you for clarifying.  That happens to most people at some point or another.  We all have assumptions and baggage we carry with us that sometimes colour how we perceive others' comments. 

[NASDAQ]

I don't think Christians are abusive. I do think that conservative Christians expect more in the way of compliance and obedience than Average Pacific Northwest Person. Not necessarily right or wrong, just an observation.

 

I time-out like crazy between two and four, and then right before turning five my children seem to discover the key to being a reasonable human being. I hope they don't lose it again as preteens.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

Yes, I know.  I addressed that already.   :)

 

I'm sorry.  My apologizes.  WTM keeps giving me 520 errors so I'm not always up to date and it takes me like 5 times to post.  :glare:   We've all btdt.  Me, in this case now. ;)